I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

Fast TTK generally creates a more dynamic 'wet and wild' game. With long TTKs, there is more time for things to even out so that the higher skill player always wins an engagement. Upsets in gunfights are less likely.

Destiny has always been a more 'casual' competitive FPS, so this makes perfect sense.

What’s that mean? Bungie is just going to decide weapon by weapon and assign a set element?

Yeah that's the way I read it:

https://twitter.com/Josh_Hamrick/status/1027457635161784320

The idea, assuming no bugs prevent us from doing this, is that whatever the last mod you had put in would remain... then collections would always give you the new locked damage type for that specific weapon.

Shoulder charge is already almost useless.

[Citation Needed]. :p

“Shoulder charge is already almost useless.”
—CruelLEGACEY, DBO Forum post, August 10, 2018

Shoulder charge is already almost useless.

[Citation Needed]. :p

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

You say that a faster TTK is a strength for a game like this. But I would say because we have said abilities that it doesn't need faster TTK. I would prefer if we stayed right where we are and slightly buff those abilities instead. We don't have to swing into full on tactical because we are already on the TTK side as it is. I just don't want to go full on TTK either.

I don’t think they necessarily have to do anything... ever since Vigilance Wing and Graviton Lance rose to supremecy, I think the crucible has become far more enjoyable. If I had to guess, I suspect Bungie wants to bring a wider range of primary weapons in line so those 2 exotics don’t completely dominate the way they do now. I don’t think a wider variety of equally effective weapons is a bad thing.

As far as the other tweaks go, they seem reasonable to me, in theory. Shoulder charge is already almost useless. At least if it can score a 1-hit kill, it will open the possibility of a surprise attack chaining into a larger engagement , rather than the charger being instantly gunned down.
It is a slippery slope, though. I found the rampant ability spam in D1 to be very frustrating. It was a game that leaned too heavily towards providing easy ways for players to get kills without properly earning them (ie actually beating their opponent in combat). There were so many grenades that tracked or had huge AOEs, burning effects, and insta-kill supers that required almost no skill to use.

So I just think that if Bungie wants to make space magic a big part of PvP without turning the crucible into a complete shit show, they’d need to completely rethink the TTK (ie slow it waaaaay down), amplify the differences between the classes, provide more complex maps... basically make a different game.

Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

In a lot of ways to a lot of the players base the short answer: Yes.

A lot of what Bungie mentions when they talk about balancing in D2 is "hero moments" (i.e., your opportunity to do something that is both exciting and impactful to your team/individual performance) and while D1 was full of them for most of its life because of overall game tempo and the capability of the sandbox (see, Golden Triangle) that is not something D2 has had pretty much ever. Maybe if you pop your super at a really good time. Or like out with a rocket. Or every so often you catch a few enemies trying to make a play who are unprepared for how you approached them.

In D1 I had hero moments almost every single game, and a large part of that was lethality. The other side of that was ability frequency - which I'm still not sure is where I'd personally (or the broader community though I don't speak for them) want it. The loss of Int/Dis/Str for a lot of players was a disappointment. Yes, that was a response to community feedback about wanting to make it a more "primary focused game" but doing that pushes you further to a one-gun-game than ensuring a broader toolset is viable. I think D2 has spent most of its life without a viable broader toolset. It's a Golden Triangle with one point and 2 ground-off nubs.

I don't mean to sound dismissive if I do. You have valid concerns for changes to a game you are currently enjoying. I do currently enjoy the state of Crucible, but I also am more excited by these changes than by the existing state of Crucible myself.

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

I get your point and I agree that it is closer in that spectrum. But why does it have to go even farther? Is there a reason why it needs to be faster? Is Destiny broken as it is now?

You say that a faster TTK is a strength for a game like this. But I would say because we have said abilities that it doesn't need faster TTK. I would prefer if we stayed right where we are and slightly buff those abilities instead. We don't have to swing into full on tactical because we are already on the TTK side as it is. I just don't want to go full on TTK either.

Query: If you don’t want a near-instant TTK, why are you running a build designed to play into natural reactions to net you a near instant TTK?

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Strategy, adaptability, retreat... all will be much less possible when your enemy's first attack instantly kills you. Take my The Wall Upon With EVERYTHING Breaks video. Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me (generally if I'm low on health with the current rules, it probably means I'd be dead under the new Forsaken ones) meaning the next three Guardians I killed based on knowing my armor, weapons, and abilities would not have happened.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.

But Destiny has never delivered particularly deep, protracted PvP battles (not a knock against Destiny... just a comment).

The TTK has always been quick enough that if you sustain any damage during an engagement, your chances of being picked off by another opponent a moment later are extremely high. Especially in a game where most game types are 6v6 on small maps.

That’s why an emphasis on faster TTK actually rewards skilled players. It puts the emphasis on the initial ability to target and aim quickly. Since taking any damage at all is such a huge disadvantage when dealing with multiple opponents, a fast TTK swings the advantage back towards the player who is able to aim and shoot faster than everyone else. It also makes knowledge of map layout and sight lines MORE important, not less.

Now, I’d be equally in favour of pushing Destiny in the other direction; longer battles, with more tactical gameplay and mechanical variety. I love games like that too. A perfect example is (drum roll...) Titanfall! Titan vs Titan combat in that series is highly rewarding to strategic positioning and thoughtful use of each Titan’s unique abilities, knowledge of each class’ strengths and weaknesses, etc. But in Destiny, the 3 classes really aren’t that different, and their abilities aren’t impactful enough to steer the combat in meaningful ways most of the time. And in the rare circumstances where they are impactful, they’re on such long cooldowns that they rarely get the opportunity to shine.

The reality of Destiny PvP is that abilities are a minor part of the mix. It doesn’t matter how good I get with grenades or barricades or shoulder charges, none of that is going to come close to matching the 20-30 kills that I get every single control match using Graviton Lance. I’ll get another 5-7 kills with supers, maybe 1 grenade kill if I’m lucky.

My point is that Destiny is far far closer to the quick TTK, twitch shooter end of the spectrum than it is to the methodical, tactical combat side of the gameplay spectrum. So if it’s going to lean into it’s strengths, I think going slightly faster is the more logical choice.

Sorry, special case here: EP shotgun and sniper get locked to solar to prevent Tractor Cannon stacking!

— Greg C Peng (@gregcpeng) August 9, 2018

Isn’t that a positive? Pick your play style and lean into it?

I'm with you. It's honestly the one thing I wish Destiny encouraged a lot more. I think it does, for what it's worth, but it never seems drastic enough for me to really dig into everything and find something that works. I just play with what I have and it never seems to matter all that much what I'm using. I think that can also be a strength, too, but I'd love to see more meaningful diversity.

I had a discussion on the subreddit the other day. Everyone is pissed about elemental modifiers going away, but I celebrate it. And I think it comes down to meaningful and interesting choices. When you can switch elements so cheaply and easily, they might as well just remove that entire aspect of the game, because it no longer matters. I am actually really looking forward to not necessarily having an ideal weapon with the right elemental damage type. Do I switch to my Sidearm, because it's the only thing I currently have to match the void shields, or do I keep running that solar Scout Rifle so I can keep my distance? That's much more interesting than stopping for ten seconds to make that solar Scout Rifle into a void Scout Rifle and rolling on through. I desperately want to see more tactical trade-offs in Destiny. And while elemental damage and modifiers aren't a huge deal either way, I think it's a step in that direction.

Not too mention, having easily selectable elemental modifiers makes Hard Light and Borealis nearly useless as exotics.

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

I would live if that were the case in practice, but that hasn’t shown in general to function in practice with Destiny’s Sandbox. Destiny 2 has a general lack of synergizing. And not knowing your definition of nuanced and adaptive I would hesitate to comment on it. Because I feel that the changes shown are going to make for more nuance and adaption.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Setting a small subset of high risk/high reward options, or alternatively low sustainability burst damage, to have a near 0 TTK is different than setting everything to that. And the reason you pick your gun should be a combination of ease of use and range considerations. If all guns have a slow TTK it starts to not even matter to the same tune, no? If a shoulder charge ends before they can react then I have successfully used my toolset to get an advantage. Choosing to engage in melee range is also a player choice which may be a mistake they make.

. . . Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me . . .

Except that the Titan you shoulder charged, given the context, would have instead done no damage to you. And you would have had full health going into the further engagement. That Titan would have also needed to should charge you at the same time, and I don’t know of any case examples of how that plays out.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.

In the better examples of low TTK games though Skill (i.e., twitch skill), Map Knowledge (from layout, to travel times, to flank routes and popular weapon use per area), and gear selection (spec., playing to the strengths of your gear) matter substantially more than people tend to give them credit. And I would also include maneuvering, map usage, and other non-twitch skills to also being important.

I enjoy games where I can have a sustained 1v1 or what have you where a combination of health and weapon management wins out, I play Quake Champions when I want to get sweaty. But i also like games that reward my skillset focused on out playing around the engagement and not just when bullets fly. (Yes, QC has that too, but differently focused)

The crimes they have committed to the building mechanics, either intentionally or unintentionally, in recent patches.

See that doesn't affect me because I don't build!

Fortnite is in the worst state it has ever been because they keep grinding off the parts that make it stand out and the parts that make the game interesting.

Just curious which parts you're referring to?

Query: If you don’t want a near-instant TTK, why are you running a build designed to play into natural reactions to net you a near instant TTK?

Because I think there should be several synergistic builds you can aim for that demonstrate a mastery of load out and skill. By starting with a long TTK and allowing players who understand the game the best to lower it significantly by both their gear and actions you create a more nuanced and adaptive game.

If you just set all TTK's to almost 0 you don't do that. It starts to almost not even matter what gun or armor you are using when every melee battle ends before the enemy can react. When every gun battle ends before the enemy can even aim down the sights what does gun selection even matter?

Strategy, adaptability, retreat... all will be much less possible when your enemy's first attack instantly kills you. Take my The Wall Upon With EVERYTHING Breaks video. Under the new rules, the Titan I shoulder charged might have very well traded kills with me (generally if I'm low on health with the current rules, it probably means I'd be dead under the new Forsaken ones) meaning the next three Guardians I killed based on knowing my armor, weapons, and abilities would not have happened.

It's that kind of thing I'm very much afraid of. That the game is going to move much more towards dying instantly over and over again to someone with a shotgun rather than more protracted battles where things like skill, map knowledge, and load out actually matters.