The reason the I think raid drops when it does is to allow promotion through the "world's first" competitions and to ensure that the field for those are relatively assured to be streamers with significant audiences. That's the only thing achieved by retarding the rate of progress of the average player and then dropping raid content significantly in advance of when the broad part of the population reaches raid level.

I just realized that making the light level matter so much because of how early it was would make the skill level more obvious. Only true skilled Destiny players would be able to handle that. And thus it spread out the finish times. If they had released it later, the finish times might have been minutes or seconds apart.

Just some thoughts... Not saying I agree with it.

Cody's argument is that Bungie could make it easier for both camps to be happy relatively simply and I'd agree. There's no reason the Raid has to drop so close to the expansion other than wanting to get people who are on the fence to buy it more quickly.

No, that's not Cody's argument at all. That's your argument. (Or maybe it's not. It's an argument that hasn't been voiced before this post of yours, so I don't know WHO subscribes to it.) Cody's argument was that discovery was everything, and since he can't have that, there's nothing worth having.

Pretty sure I've said similar things. Even in raids that I thought did this better than others (King's Fall) I was a bit disappointed by mechanics that were impenetrable if you were trying to figure out what they might be by observation and deduction instead of just trying every random thing until something happens.

The reason the I think raid drops when it does is to allow promotion through the "world's first" competitions and to ensure that the field for those are relatively assured to be streamers with significant audiences. That's the only thing achieved by retarding the rate of progress of the average player and then dropping raid content significantly in advance of when the broad part of the population reaches raid level.

I disagree with Cody on a lot, if not most things, but this isn't one of them.

I guess you could view replaying an encounter multiple times until someone actually notices the thing you're missing as brute force, but that feels pretty reductive to me.

That’s basically how I view it. Yes, you need to notice the right things... but that is in and of itself just a case of repeated trial and error. There’s an “infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters” nature to the whole endeavour. I’ve never felt clever for figuring out a raid mechanic. I just feel like my team tried enough things that didn’t work that we eventually found the things that do.

It’s like “hey, there are some plates in here. Does standing on them kill us or progress the encounter?”. It’s impossible to know until you try it and see what happens. There are no clues that could lead you to the correct decision. It’s nothing but trial and error.

And a certain amount of that, I’m totally cool with. I like it to a point. But for my taste, Destiny raids crossed way beyond the point where this element of the raids was remotely enjoyable for me. It’s like “can we just skip the next 4 hours of stumbling through all this trial and error and get to the part where we’re working to master our execution, rather than figuring out the rules?” And I know that’s my own personal line and everyone will have their own line in a different place. For what little it’s worth, I’m just saying that I’d be far more interested in the “figuring out the mechanics” aspect of Destiny’s raids if they weren’t such a rats nest of random and arbitrary hoops to jump through that often feel utterly disconnected from any combat-based logic.

Yeah, my line is in a different place. What you're describing is experimentation, and the best blind teams I've played with took an almost scientific approach, and often there were clues, especially on the wipe screen and kill feed. For Last Wish we had some very good guessers, and we always made progress before too long. (Several people on the team stayed ahead of me almost always in terms of figuring it out--my contribution was mainly in echoing approval of a strategy. That said, it was great fun, and I think some of our strats are better than Chappy-approved strats!).

About the Riven fight, I actually like the complexity, and I'm so glad to have figured out the hard (non-cheese) way to beat her, whether I get to successfully execute that strategy or not. Then again, I'm a fan of King's Fall, which seems rare (if the difficulty of recruiting for a raid is any indication). It was the most epic (dare I say Tolkienesque) raid pre-Last Wish, and the hardest part of it is finding a team with the time to do it in one sitting.

I completely agree about mastering execution--that's a different kind of pleasure, and as I've said before, it's the closest I'll ever get to playing team sports. The puzzle element often remains past knowing the how, and can be reintroduced anytime a new player joins or doesn't have the preferred loadout. I love that improvisation, the changing of armor or perks, the adjusting of positions--it's all part of what makes it fun. And I think I might have a preternatural tolerance for what some people call beating their head against the wall. I don't mind failing too much, especially if every third or fourth try I can detect a few inches of progress. Victory is all the sweeter, when it comes. For me the stress of that situation is worrying about other people's frustration--not so much my own.

I agree that it may have been nice to stagger the release of the raid so ppl could get the gear and not feel rushed. I don't mind, however, a level requirement to access content. It's always been a staple of RPGs and maybe im just used to it at this point. Making LL irrelevant basically turns everything into a cosmetic reward which seems pretty boring to me (call me shallow and old fashioned but I like feeling like my character is getting stronger). I may be in the minority in thinking this, however.

I don't prioritize execution over discovery, in general - I'm saying that given the fact that discovery is no longer as good as it once was, it makes SENSE to look for the places where you CAN have fun - ie, execution. Or, put another way, the fact that Cody can't enjoy discovery isn't as big a loss as it would have been in earlier iterations, because discovery's not as good as it was.

But execution involves discovery. You act as if they are separate, but as a team figuring out how to breeze through stuff IS DISCOVERY, even if you've done it before. By now the good strats have been figured out, so what am I supposed to do but follow directions?

Ok, that’s totally skipping over the part where we were still refining our VoG strats 2 months after first beating it. Wasn’t it like a year into D1 what you learned you could stand on the pillars in the Templar’s well and activate the plates? ;)

It’s not a “oh someone has gotten through it once, there’s no more room to learn anything” situation.

No, that's not Cody's argument at all. That's your argument. (Or maybe it's not. It's an argument that hasn't been voiced before this post of yours, so I don't know WHO subscribes to it.) Cody's argument was that discovery was everything, and since he can't have that, there's nothing worth having.

Discovery is a HUGE part. Again, the getting better and the execution is itself discovery. If someone told you flat out an unbeatable strategy, planned your every move and you did it and it worked, how much fun would that actually be? But if your group found that themselves?

When you finish the raid blind, you have that deep understanding to make the 'getting better' part way better and more fun. At least in my view.

I didn’t do VoG or Crota blind, and I’d say I understand those raids inside and out far better than at least 90% of the player base.

Cruel's saying that Cody's focusing on that first 1/10th, and acting like the raid is pointless if that's been spoiled. But the joy in mastering the mechanics, gelling with your team, figuring out how to work like a well-oiled machine... that's pretty damned satisfying. And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

Ok, so why haven't we been playing Spire of Stars over and over?

……………

Because the execution's not that fun.

I don't prioritize execution over discovery, in general - I'm saying that given the fact that discovery is no longer as good as it once was, it makes SENSE to look for the places where you CAN have fun - ie, execution. Or, put another way, the fact that Cody can't enjoy discovery isn't as big a loss as it would have been in earlier iterations, because discovery's not as good as it was.

But execution involves discovery. You act as if they are separate, but as a team figuring out how to breeze through stuff IS DISCOVERY, even if you've done it before. By now the good strats have been figured out, so what am I supposed to do but follow directions?

No, that's not Cody's argument at all. That's your argument. (Or maybe it's not. It's an argument that hasn't been voiced before this post of yours, so I don't know WHO subscribes to it.) Cody's argument was that discovery was everything, and since he can't have that, there's nothing worth having.

Discovery is a HUGE part. Again, the getting better and the execution is itself discovery. If someone told you flat out an unbeatable strategy, planned your every move and you did it and it worked, how much fun would that actually be? But if your group found that themselves?

When you finish the raid blind, you have that deep understanding to make the 'getting better' part way better and more fun. At least in my view.

It’s like “hey, there are some plates in here. Does standing on them kill us or progress the encounter?”.

Last Wish has you covered--it's both!

Cody's argument is that Bungie could make it easier for both camps to be happy relatively simply and I'd agree. There's no reason the Raid has to drop so close to the expansion other than wanting to get people who are on the fence to buy it more quickly.

Yes this is all I want.

Day 1 hardcore folks can do the raid. A week later, so can casuals. Why is that so hard? Again, 1/x where the x axis is time to raid and the y axis is difficulty in doing that.

Cruel's saying that Cody's focusing on that first 1/10th, and acting like the raid is pointless if that's been spoiled. But the joy in mastering the mechanics, gelling with your team, figuring out how to work like a well-oiled machine... that's pretty damned satisfying. And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

Ok, so why haven't we been playing Spire of Stars over and over?

……………

Okay - Brute Force was the wrong description.

I guess I feel like this raid is overly-complicated. I mean, all of the pieces are doable... but they seem fiddly, to me. I miss King's Fall. :)

That I can absolutely agree with--just look at my multiple posts in any thread about the Riven encounter.

And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

I just about replied to Cruel's post, but I was too lazy, but this thought is making me post something.

I very strongly disagree with this sentiment. I have now done four raids blind (King's Fall, Leviathan, Eater of Worlds, and Last Wish), and I cannot remember brute force ever being the method for our progression.

Yes, sometimes there is some trial and error, but there has always (so far as I can remember) been a sense of logical problem-solving. I have no doubt that it is entirely possible to brute force a Destiny raid--at the end of the day, if you just try enough shit, shoot or stand on enough glowy things, pick up enough relics, etc, you will be able to get through it.

But there is always a way to actually solve the puzzle. It's less brute force and more actually noticing the correct things. That is why I love blind raiding so much. It's all about actually figuring out what the elements at play actually are, how those elements are interacting.

I guess you could view replaying an encounter multiple times until someone actually notices the thing you're missing as brute force, but that feels pretty reductive to me.

I do think you're both right, in that raiding non-blind is not some awful thing. They're still incredibly fun and challenging, even when you know exactly what to do. I wouldn't ever just skip a raid because I couldn't do it blind. But to say they just require (or even just encourage) brute forcing is just wrong, in my opinion.

Okay - Brute Force was the wrong description.

I guess I feel like this raid is overly-complicated. I mean, all of the pieces are doable... but they seem fiddly, to me. I miss King's Fall. :)

I guess you could view replaying an encounter multiple times until someone actually notices the thing you're missing as brute force, but that feels pretty reductive to me.

That’s basically how I view it. Yes, you need to notice the right things... but that is in and of itself just a case of repeated trial and error. There’s an “infinite number of monkeys on an infinite number of typewriters” nature to the whole endeavour. I’ve never felt clever for figuring out a raid mechanic. I just feel like my team tried enough things that didn’t work that we eventually found the things that do.

It’s like “hey, there are some plates in here. Does standing on them kill us or progress the encounter?”. It’s impossible to know until you try it and see what happens. There are no clues that could lead you to the correct decision. It’s nothing but trial and error.

And a certain amount of that, I’m totally cool with. I like it to a point. But for my taste, Destiny raids crossed way beyond the point where this element of the raids was remotely enjoyable for me. It’s like “can we just skip the next 4 hours of stumbling through all this trial and error and get to the part where we’re working to master our execution, rather than figuring out the rules?” And I know that’s my own personal line and everyone will have their own line in a different place. For what little it’s worth, I’m just saying that I’d be far more interested in the “figuring out the mechanics” aspect of Destiny’s raids if they weren’t such a rats nest of random and arbitrary hoops to jump through that often feel utterly disconnected from any combat-based logic.

If you are telling me my commitment to figuring out a game’s challenges myself is what’s inhibiting my enjoyment of said game, I would simply say the game is broken by its design. Your suggestion is quite frankly insane to me and against the basic fun of discovery that games even provide.

I’m saying there are many different kinds or layers of discovery. You’re focusing on just 1 specific avenue.

To explain further: my first trip to paris wasn’t ruined by the fact that the city had been “spoiled” for me by movies, books, and television. In fact, I went out of my way to learn as much as I could about the different destinations, galleries, landmarks and locations ahead of time, so that I could make the most out of my time there. If I’d gone “blind”, I’d have missed most of my favourite parts.

And that's totally a valid experience. But I do sympathize with Cody.

Have you ever been to an Escape Room? Have you ever done the same room twice? I know I wouldn't; the point is the process of discovery. Once you know how to do it, there's no reason to do it again unless it changes significantly.

Now, while Destiny does provide some level of change up (which is why it is totally replayable), the elements of a Raid that are synonymous with an Escape Room are not really changed. If Cody's main draw to these activities are those elements, then Destiny does cater to that demographic poorly.

Honestly, I'd wait until we're a month or even two months into the expansion to release the raid. Let people grind for a good while to get ready and let there be a race to solve the Raid, not a race to see who can put more of their life on hold in the week after release.

The whole POINT of an escape room is the puzzle; there's nothing else.

That is super-far from the case with Destiny's raids - in fact, I'd say that they're getting more and more distant from that point. There has ALWAYS been a second, critically important piece: execution.

Once you understand the mechanics of an escape room, there's zero barrier to completion - a child can do it, given the instructions. This is NOT the case with a raid. Knowing what to do is 1/10th of the battle; doing it is the other 9/10ths.

Cruel's saying that Cody's focusing on that first 1/10th, and acting like the raid is pointless if that's been spoiled. But the joy in mastering the mechanics, gelling with your team, figuring out how to work like a well-oiled machine... that's pretty damned satisfying. And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

World of Warcraft has had both discovery and execution as well; it just does it better than Destiny does. I already noted that Destiny has aspects beyond the ones it shares with Escape Rooms, the point I'm making is that some people value that first experience of discovery over the execution, and that's perfectly valid. You're prioritizing the execution over discovery, which is also valid.

You're not reading my message, I guess. Or Cruel's.

I don't prioritize execution over discovery, in general - I'm saying that given the fact that discovery is no longer as good as it once was, it makes SENSE to look for the places where you CAN have fun - ie, execution. Or, put another way, the fact that Cody can't enjoy discovery isn't as big a loss as it would have been in earlier iterations, because discovery's not as good as it was.

Cody's argument is that Bungie could make it easier for both camps to be happy relatively simply and I'd agree. There's no reason the Raid has to drop so close to the expansion other than wanting to get people who are on the fence to buy it more quickly.

No, that's not Cody's argument at all. That's your argument. (Or maybe it's not. It's an argument that hasn't been voiced before this post of yours, so I don't know WHO subscribes to it.) Cody's argument was that discovery was everything, and since he can't have that, there's nothing worth having.

And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

I just about replied to Cruel's post, but I was too lazy, but this thought is making me post something.

I very strongly disagree with this sentiment. I have now done four raids blind (King's Fall, Leviathan, Eater of Worlds, and Last Wish), and I cannot remember brute force ever being the method for our progression.

Yes, sometimes there is some trial and error, but there has always (so far as I can remember) been a sense of logical problem-solving. I have no doubt that it is entirely possible to brute force a Destiny raid--at the end of the day, if you just try enough shit, shoot or stand on enough glowy things, pick up enough relics, etc, you will be able to get through it.

But there is always a way to actually solve the puzzle. It's less brute force and more actually noticing the correct things. That is why I love blind raiding so much. It's all about actually figuring out what the elements at play actually are, how those elements are interacting.

I guess you could view replaying an encounter multiple times until someone actually notices the thing you're missing as brute force, but that feels pretty reductive to me.

I do think you're both right, in that raiding non-blind is not some awful thing. They're still incredibly fun and challenging, even when you know exactly what to do. I wouldn't ever just skip a raid because I couldn't do it blind. But to say they just require (or even just encourage) brute forcing is just wrong, in my opinion.

If you are telling me my commitment to figuring out a game’s challenges myself is what’s inhibiting my enjoyment of said game, I would simply say the game is broken by its design. Your suggestion is quite frankly insane to me and against the basic fun of discovery that games even provide.

I’m saying there are many different kinds or layers of discovery. You’re focusing on just 1 specific avenue.

To explain further: my first trip to paris wasn’t ruined by the fact that the city had been “spoiled” for me by movies, books, and television. In fact, I went out of my way to learn as much as I could about the different destinations, galleries, landmarks and locations ahead of time, so that I could make the most out of my time there. If I’d gone “blind”, I’d have missed most of my favourite parts.

And that's totally a valid experience. But I do sympathize with Cody.

Have you ever been to an Escape Room? Have you ever done the same room twice? I know I wouldn't; the point is the process of discovery. Once you know how to do it, there's no reason to do it again unless it changes significantly.

Now, while Destiny does provide some level of change up (which is why it is totally replayable), the elements of a Raid that are synonymous with an Escape Room are not really changed. If Cody's main draw to these activities are those elements, then Destiny does cater to that demographic poorly.

Honestly, I'd wait until we're a month or even two months into the expansion to release the raid. Let people grind for a good while to get ready and let there be a race to solve the Raid, not a race to see who can put more of their life on hold in the week after release.

The whole POINT of an escape room is the puzzle; there's nothing else.

That is super-far from the case with Destiny's raids - in fact, I'd say that they're getting more and more distant from that point. There has ALWAYS been a second, critically important piece: execution.

Once you understand the mechanics of an escape room, there's zero barrier to completion - a child can do it, given the instructions. This is NOT the case with a raid. Knowing what to do is 1/10th of the battle; doing it is the other 9/10ths.

Cruel's saying that Cody's focusing on that first 1/10th, and acting like the raid is pointless if that's been spoiled. But the joy in mastering the mechanics, gelling with your team, figuring out how to work like a well-oiled machine... that's pretty damned satisfying. And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.

World of Warcraft has had both discovery and execution as well; it just does it better than Destiny does. I already noted that Destiny has aspects beyond the ones it shares with Escape Rooms, the point I'm making is that some people value that first experience of discovery over the execution, and that's perfectly valid. You're prioritizing the execution over discovery, which is also valid.

Cody's argument is that Bungie could make it easier for both camps to be happy relatively simply and I'd agree. There's no reason the Raid has to drop so close to the expansion other than wanting to get people who are on the fence to buy it more quickly.

If you are telling me my commitment to figuring out a game’s challenges myself is what’s inhibiting my enjoyment of said game, I would simply say the game is broken by its design. Your suggestion is quite frankly insane to me and against the basic fun of discovery that games even provide.

I’m saying there are many different kinds or layers of discovery. You’re focusing on just 1 specific avenue.

To explain further: my first trip to paris wasn’t ruined by the fact that the city had been “spoiled” for me by movies, books, and television. In fact, I went out of my way to learn as much as I could about the different destinations, galleries, landmarks and locations ahead of time, so that I could make the most out of my time there. If I’d gone “blind”, I’d have missed most of my favourite parts.

And that's totally a valid experience. But I do sympathize with Cody.

Have you ever been to an Escape Room? Have you ever done the same room twice? I know I wouldn't; the point is the process of discovery. Once you know how to do it, there's no reason to do it again unless it changes significantly.

Now, while Destiny does provide some level of change up (which is why it is totally replayable), the elements of a Raid that are synonymous with an Escape Room are not really changed. If Cody's main draw to these activities are those elements, then Destiny does cater to that demographic poorly.

Honestly, I'd wait until we're a month or even two months into the expansion to release the raid. Let people grind for a good while to get ready and let there be a race to solve the Raid, not a race to see who can put more of their life on hold in the week after release.

The whole POINT of an escape room is the puzzle; there's nothing else.

That is super-far from the case with Destiny's raids - in fact, I'd say that they're getting more and more distant from that point. There has ALWAYS been a second, critically important piece: execution.

Once you understand the mechanics of an escape room, there's zero barrier to completion - a child can do it, given the instructions. This is NOT the case with a raid. Knowing what to do is 1/10th of the battle; doing it is the other 9/10ths.

Cruel's saying that Cody's focusing on that first 1/10th, and acting like the raid is pointless if that's been spoiled. But the joy in mastering the mechanics, gelling with your team, figuring out how to work like a well-oiled machine... that's pretty damned satisfying. And given how difficult it is to stay blind, and how poorly the puzzles are solved via anything other than brute force... it's the part we should be focusing on.