I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

Hmm. If you're referring to any of my points, I suspect you're both misunderstanding. The elites I'm referring to like the political angles (I'm not talking about politics as they are portrayed in that fictional universe, but how The Last Jedi checked the boxes for the very specific politics of our time in our world). Yes, the original trilogy is a personal story, but it has a timeless mythic quality that speaks to universal themes that have existed as long as humans have told stories. There are many things that are much more important than politics.

I was referring to how we are becoming the movie elitists (the 1%) by examining this movie to the nth degree. While the other 99% that watched the movie have no problem with any of this because it's still a great movie.

Ah, gotcha. Don't think I've examined it to the nth degree here. I've not gotten into too many particulars because I don't want to get into that kind of extended debate. I also might quibble with your numbers. I think the percentage of people who had problems with it is greater than 1%. All that said, I understand that this conversation can be tiresome if you simply enjoyed the movie.

Yeah, I generalize :D But I also have no problem with people digging into movies. I just don't like people who seem to think that if you don't understand a movie at that level then you can't enjoy the movie. When usually, the majority of people just want to watch a movie at whatever depth of understanding they care to use. So when I hear people talk to this depth I'm just like "Yeah, I never got that, but I still really enjoyed the movie"

I think its legitimate to criticize a movie that includes elements that seem to, in a hamfisted way, flatter a particular audience. Otherwise, if I'm come across as begrudging anyone who simply enjoys a movie as entertainment, that wasn't my intention. Most people get way more out of Marvel movies, for instance, than I do. The Star Wars franchise means more to me than most IPs because of how it influenced me at age 13 when there was nothing else quite like it, and its influence was profound. It affected my intellectual development. It expanded my interest in science fiction, fantasy, and story telling in general. Just like the Beatles made me a fan of everything that influenced the Beatles and everything they influenced, so it was with Star Wars. Empire was more mature movie, and by that time I had matured. I read Joseph Campbell. I began to understand on a more cerebral level why these movies had the staying power they did. That understanding is what drives my critique. The movies can still be plenty entertaining, but for me Star Wars was something special in that it was a phenomenon--something that was tremendously popular, yet there was substance underneath (very similar to the Beatles' music, the more I think about it). I'm not saying everyone has to think about it the way I do. Obviously, many don't, and that's okay.

I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

Hmm. If you're referring to any of my points, I suspect you're both misunderstanding. The elites I'm referring to like the political angles (I'm not talking about politics as they are portrayed in that fictional universe, but how The Last Jedi checked the boxes for the very specific politics of our time in our world). Yes, the original trilogy is a personal story, but it has a timeless mythic quality that speaks to universal themes that have existed as long as humans have told stories. There are many things that are much more important than politics.

I was referring to how we are becoming the movie elitists (the 1%) by examining this movie to the nth degree. While the other 99% that watched the movie have no problem with any of this because it's still a great movie.

Ah, gotcha. Don't think I've examined it to the nth degree here. I've not gotten into too many particulars because I don't want to get into that kind of extended debate. I also might quibble with your numbers. I think the percentage of people who had problems with it is greater than 1%. All that said, I understand that this conversation can be tiresome if you simply enjoyed the movie.

Yeah, I generalize :D But I also have no problem with people digging into movies. I just don't like people who seem to think that if you don't understand a movie at that level then you can't enjoy the movie. When usually, the majority of people just want to watch a movie at whatever depth of understanding they care to use. So when I hear people talk to this depth I'm just like "Yeah, I never got that, but I still really enjoyed the movie"

I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

Hmm. If you're referring to any of my points, I suspect you're both misunderstanding. The elites I'm referring to like the political angles (I'm not talking about politics as they are portrayed in that fictional universe, but how The Last Jedi checked the boxes for the very specific politics of our time in our world). Yes, the original trilogy is a personal story, but it has a timeless mythic quality that speaks to universal themes that have existed as long as humans have told stories. There are many things that are much more important than politics.

I was referring to how we are becoming the movie elitists (the 1%) by examining this movie to the nth degree. While the other 99% that watched the movie have no problem with any of this because it's still a great movie.

Ah, gotcha. Don't think I've examined it to the nth degree here. I've not gotten into too many particulars because I don't want to get into that kind of extended debate. I also might quibble with your numbers. I think the percentage of people who had problems with it is greater than 1%. All that said, I understand that this conversation can be tiresome if you simply enjoyed the movie.

I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

Hmm. If you're referring to any of my points, I suspect you're both misunderstanding. The elites I'm referring to like the political angles (I'm not talking about politics as they are portrayed in that fictional universe, but how The Last Jedi checked the boxes for the very specific politics of our time in our world). Yes, the original trilogy is a personal story, but it has a timeless mythic quality that speaks to universal themes that have existed as long as humans have told stories. There are many things that are much more important than politics.

I was referring to how we are becoming the movie elitists (the 1%) by examining this movie to the nth degree. While the other 99% that watched the movie have no problem with any of this because it's still a great movie.

I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

Hmm. If you're referring to any of my points, I suspect you're both misunderstanding. The elites I'm referring to like the political angles (I'm not talking about politics as they are portrayed in that fictional universe, but how The Last Jedi checked the boxes for the very specific politics of our time in our world). Yes, the original trilogy is a personal story, but it has a timeless mythic quality that speaks to universal themes that have existed as long as humans have told stories. There are many things that are much more important than politics.

I’m with you.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I agree. And I understand that people still want the feel of the original trilogy, but from what I've read about it so far, you apparently have to be elitest to even understand what it's about. Kudos to the 1% who understand all of that and get something out of it. I consider myself a smart guy, but I never got all of that from any of the star wars movies. And I'm all for Sci-fi being a tool to help us understand ourselves and our culture through another medium.

[Edit]
I guess what I'm trying to say is, I feel like I should feel bad for only knowing what 20% of the movie is "about". We keep talking about how TLJ didn't have the same core idea that the original trilogy did. But to me, overall, it still has the same Star Wars vibe. Maybe that's because I never took the deep dive of how every nuance emulates the culture of the period it's watched in or how the force relates to string theory in one but not the other. Yes, that's obviously exaggerated, to make the point that I honestly don't care, because what I get out of it still makes the movie great. And I'm not just watching the movies for the explosions.

Yeah, nothing bolsters your street cred among critics like retroactively claiming you were making a political statement with which they agree. Already covered this. I’ll say this, if Lucas had a political motive for making the original trilogy, I’ll give him props for subtlety—something he lost completely for the prequels and Rian Johnson didn’t demonstrate.

Yeah. Read the secret history of star wars. A lot of what Lucas has said is after the fact bullshit.

2005 is pretty after the fact for A New Hope...

Yeah, nothing bolsters your street cred among critics like retroactively claiming you were making a political statement with which they agree. Already covered this. I’ll say this, if Lucas had a political motive for making the original trilogy, I’ll give him props for subtlety—something he lost completely for the prequels and Rian Johnson didn’t demonstrate.

Yeah. Read the secret history of star wars. A lot of what Lucas has said is after the fact bullshit.

My favorite movies tend to be art house films.

Go see High Life dude.

I think many actors are pretty dumb. Like they have one brain cell for bodily functions, one for memorization, and one for mimicry, and not much else. I don’t think Mark Hamill is dumb. Without the success of, say, Harrison Ford, he’s had a lot more time to think about the role that made him into a household name. I think it’s significant that he resisted the direction Rian Johnson took Luke. The thing is, I feel like I understand Rian Johnson. His viewpoint in that clip is valid. I also like movies that are challenging and not everyone “gets.” My favorite movies tend to be art house films. My interest in tentpole movies has decreased with each passing year. I adored “Roma,” for instance, and I have plenty of friends who just don’t get it. I wanted it to sweep the Oscars. I didn’t care that it didn’t follow some hero’s journey template. I didn’t care that it had things to say about politics in 1970s Mexico, the rigidity of the class system there, or male privilege. If those things had been its primary focus, I don’t think it would be the masterpiece I think it is, but that gets into ideas I’ve discussed before regarding the difference between art and propaganda.

I remain an admirer of Rian Johnson for directing the Breaking Bad episode “Ozymandias,” which I consider one of the best TV episodes ever made. He brought depth to a pivotal moment in a long story arc. He brought a bit of pretension to the material, but it worked because he understood the material. For the Last Jedi, I don’t think he did. I don’t blame him for taking the opportunity given to him, but I think a part of him did not respect or understand what made Star Wars tick, and he felt the need to interrogate, deconstruct and demythologize it, which undercut the power of myth (to coin a phrase) that lies at its heart. Add in some narrative beats that speak (in the correct way) to current cultural debates, and viola, suddenly you’ve got people who have never liked Star Wars loving Star Wars, and now they’re the right people, such as the artsy critics, and the cultural elite who normally don’t go near the cineplex.

I agree with you, Avateur, The Last Jedi isn’t a good Star Wars movie. It’s different kind of movie, wearing the carcass of Star Wars as a suit. I suspect Rian Johnson never thought there was much worth preserving at its core, so there was no harm in gutting it for his art. Good for his art. It’s not like George Lucas didn’t have artistic pretensions. His peers were making freaking The Godfather. He had uncommon (read not topical) enthusiasms for the 1970s—Flash Gordon serials, comic books, WWII dog fighting. Before making Star Wars, he studied how fairy tales worked, how myths worked. And part of what makes fairy tales and myths work is they are not specific to a time and place. At its best Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. The Last Jedi is 2017 through and through.

Star Wars was about the Vietnam War... he said as much.

I’m all for a Star Wars universe that examines itself, instead of pretending that killing the space Nazi leader solves all the galaxy’s problems.

I understand that the original trilogy was a personal story, and not one concerned with the grander politics of the entire galaxy. But I think giving us a glimpse of those politics doesn’t detract from what makes Star Wars great. I think the reaction to The Last Jedi is justification enough for why the movie should have been made, to be honest.

I remain an admirer of Rian Johnson for directing the Breaking Bad episode “Ozymandias,” which I consider one of the best TV episodes ever made. He brought depth to a pivotal moment in a long story arc. He brought a bit of pretension to the material, but it worked because he understood the material. For the Last Jedi, I don’t think he did. I don’t blame him for taking the opportunity given to him, but I think a part of him did not respect or understand what made Star Wars tick, and he felt the need to interrogate, deconstruct and demythologize it, which undercut the power of myth (to coin a phrase) that lies at its heart. Add in some narrative beats that speak (in the correct way) to current cultural debates, and viola, suddenly you’ve got people who have never liked Star Wars loving Star Wars, and now they’re the right people, such as the artsy critics, and the cultural elite who normally don’t go near the cineplex.

I agree with you, Avateur, The Last Jedi isn’t a good Star Wars movie. It’s different kind of movie, wearing the carcass of Star Wars as a suit. I suspect Rian Johnson never thought there was much worth preserving at its core, so there was no harm in gutting it for his art. Good for his art. It’s not like George Lucas didn’t have artistic pretensions. His peers were making freaking The Godfather. He had uncommon (read not topical) enthusiasms for the 1970s—Flash Gordon serials, comic books, WWII dog fighting. Before making Star Wars, he studied how fairy tales worked, how myths worked. And part of what makes fairy tales and myths work is they are not specific to a time and place. At its best Star Wars takes place a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. The Last Jedi is 2017 through and through.

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're asserting that criticizing the wealthy ruling class is elitist?

You're kidding, right? No one criticizes the elites like the elites. It's one of the primary ways they gain moral standing.

No I'm not kidding. I'm utterly confused by this idea. Can you point me to where I can learn about how elitist it is to criticize the wealthy ruling class.

Like I get it, what better position is there to witness how gratuitous obscene wealth is.

What I haven't gathered is, why is it bad to criticize the wealthy ruling class?

It's not necessarily bad per se, but doing so in Star Wars movie can be bad because it detracts from what makes Star Wars great. And that was just one example of his signaling his tribe that he was above these silly entertainments for the great unwashed.

Yeah, just not following you there. How does it detract from what makes Star Wars great? The movie pretty clearly revels in the Star Wars universe. It has an amazing light saber battle, they fight space nazis, cool millenium falcon piloting, explorations of what the force IS, and a brilliant play on Obi-Wans fight vs Vader.

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're asserting that criticizing the wealthy ruling class is elitist?

You're kidding, right? No one criticizes the elites like the elites. It's one of the primary ways they gain moral standing.

No I'm not kidding. I'm utterly confused by this idea. Can you point me to where I can learn about how elitist it is to criticize the wealthy ruling class.

Like I get it, what better position is there to witness how gratuitous obscene wealth is.

What I haven't gathered is, why is it bad to criticize the wealthy ruling class?

It's not necessarily bad per se, but doing so in Star Wars movie can be bad because it detracts from what makes Star Wars great. And that was just one example of his signaling his tribe that he was above these silly entertainments for the great unwashed.

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

If they make those statements well and in a culturally relevant manner yes. And last Jedi was so relevant it actually scared people when the message confronted them.

Okay, Jedi mind reader.

Its overwrought concern for "cultural relevancy" is exactly what will make it unwatchable down the road.

I have more to say. For instance, I have different expectations for different kinds of movies. For now I'll just say (on this point because it's only one of my criticisms) The Last Jedi is for a certain audience what most recent "Christian" movies are: pablum that makes its intended audience feel good about their moral superiority.

No I think it directly tackles and confronts the audience with issues like Toxic Masculinity, indulgence, dynasties, etc. Things we need to tackle these days!

But it doesn’t “tackle”. It preaches. It begins from a thin, under-developed, ignorant, and often pathological view of deeply complex issues, and then preaches to the audience about what is good and bad based on that world view. It does nothing to truly examine. It paints things as utterly black and white. They literally make the argument in TLJ that the ONLY way to get rich is through immoral means. Now, I’m all for someone making a movie that explores that thesis. But, just like a literal thesis defence, you don’t get to walk into a room and make grand proclamations of that nature and have everyone else just accept it. You need to examine the arguments for AND against your point.

They're movies dude, I'm sorry that you're unable to get Rian Johnson to show up to your debate club. Not every point in every movie has to engage in both sides-ism. It's the same reason I'm not interested in whether or not The First Order/Space Nazis have a point or not.

That’s the difference between “examining” and issue, and propaganda. Hollywood’s flavour of social commentary is just another religious worldview, with its own blasphemy and dogmas, sins and virtues. And like many other religious world views, it only ever references itself to prove its point.

Look the movie made a point, it wasn't there to argue with you.

More often than not, Hollywood filmmakers aren’t equipped to tackle these issues with the depth or complexity that they really deserve. They don’t understand them. And is it really that surprising that when a group of ultra-elites who work in a morally corrupt industry decide to get on their soapboxes and preach down at the rest of the world, a good chunk of the population just rolls their eyes and says “sorry, I don’t buy that coming from you”?

Uh sure, gestures at all the people who didn't "buy it"

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're asserting that criticizing the wealthy ruling class is elitist?

You're kidding, right? No one criticizes the elites like the elites. It's one of the primary ways they gain moral standing.

No I'm not kidding. I'm utterly confused by this idea. Can you point me to where I can learn about how elitist it is to criticize the wealthy ruling class.

Like I get it, what better position is there to witness how gratuitous obscene wealth is.

What I haven't gathered is, why is it bad to criticize the wealthy ruling class?

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're asserting that criticizing the wealthy ruling class is elitist?

Surely, you can see the irony of Hollywood filmmakers criticizing the rich and powerful?

So it's bad because they themselves are elite? I don't follow that logic.

These filmmakers ARE the elite. Heck, by worldwide standards, almost everyone in America is the “elite”. And by historic standards, most people alive today are the “elite”.

Why the hell would we care about "historic standards"???? What?

There is certainly PLENTY of corruption going on that is dangerous and harmful and needs to be addressed. But there’s an element to how this topic often gets discussed that is deeply influenced by jealousy, pure and simple.

“Down with the 1%!”

“Which 1%?”

“The 1% that have more than I do!”

Wow that is massive oversimplification of that movement. Who the hell was asking "which 1%" let alone answering "The 1% that have more than I do". Like are you going to catch them by asking "1% wealthiest americans or 1% worldwide? huh, got you there" and it's like yeah sure, the top 1% wealthiest worldwide owe it to the other 99% to make it a more humane world. What is wrong with that? Do you think I'd give a damn if I was wrapped up in the 1%? Hell no.

Corruption should be the focus. And rich, powerful people who are also corrupt are very dangerous. But as soon as we begin to conflate wealth with corruption, things get real nasty, real fast. We end up persecuting the innocent. It also draws attention away from the reality that there is corruption at ALL levels of society, not just the rich.

Wealth is power, I'm sorry if I'm pre-occupied by the corruption of the most powerful part of society. Like it is seriously disturbing that we're arguing over whether it's ok to criticize the elite...

Look, I'm sorry this movie was mean to wealthy people.

I'm talking about a kind of elitist audience, who believe that a sign of good art is that it makes statements about issues like, for instance, a wealthy ruling class.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you're asserting that criticizing the wealthy ruling class is elitist?

You're kidding, right? No one criticizes the elites like the elites. It's one of the primary ways they gain moral standing.