DBO Forums - THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/ Bungie.Org talks Destiny en THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) Or oryx. You never actually directly damage him. Whisper doesn’t benefit his encounter design at all.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162243 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162243 Mon, 20 May 2019 06:11:36 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
I'm kinda salty (reply)

Being powerful is certainly fun. Being so powerful that previously difficult activities become trivial is not all that fun, in my opinion.

It’s a shame there is no way to design a video game where you can adjust the difficulty such that you can always challenge yourself. I think Bungie tried this before with Halo but I guess it didn’t work out or something.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162242 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162242 Mon, 20 May 2019 06:06:45 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
PS. Xur's final Invitation is all Crucible + Comp. (reply)

Damn.

I should have jumped in and found team to roll with. Probably would have been easier to get those extra 102 points I need for Fabled going against a bunch of solos just doing the quest.

Competition was definitely a bit lighter this weekend. I went three for three when I jumped in solo yesterday. One of those was against a four stack (my team was all randoms). I almost felt bad.

Also, Rumble counts for Quickplay games, too, so you can knock out the invitation in just six games.

-Disciple

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162241 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162241 Mon, 20 May 2019 03:10:11 +0000 DestinyDiscipleN2k
PS. Xur's final Invitation is all Crucible + Comp. (reply) Damn.

I should have jumped in and found team to roll with. Probably would have been easier to get those extra 102 points I need for Fabled going against a bunch of solos just doing the quest.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162240 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162240 Mon, 20 May 2019 02:35:58 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) Auuuggghhh.....I swear, sometimes I think Bungie singles me out for abuse. -_-

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162239 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162239 Sat, 18 May 2019 23:59:07 +0000 DestinyMorpheus
...or a lot of Hard Light. (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162238 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162238 Sat, 18 May 2019 20:33:06 +0000 DestinyRagashingo THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) It is a wonderful, nostalgic Strike... that nobody sees anymore. :(

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162237 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162237 Sat, 18 May 2019 18:06:18 +0000 DestinyRagashingo
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.


They don’t help any of the encounters already in the game. My hope is that now they don’t have to consider an infinite ammo high DPS sniper rifle going forward. Raga posted a handful of better solutions, though, so now I don’t know. It’s just another example of why I’m sort of exhausted with Destiny right now. Bungie excels at a lot of things, but they really need some fresh blood for designing boss encounters.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.


I’m still disappointed with the locked load out thing. The way they talked about it before launch made me think it would be much more common, and the way they handled hard mode for the raid lairs was at least a neat idea, even if it was lackluster in its implementation. I know lots would push back against implementing that more heavily, but I’d like to see them play with curated load outs a lot more.

It’s a tired comparison, but I find myself missing Halo’s sensibility more and more

Locked loadouts need to be some interesting. Make matching energy types do extra damage to Supers again (and even increase the damage they do) and then lock a player's Crucible loadout for an hour when they first enter a special event like Iron Banner. Then maybe we'd start seeing more interesting strategies.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162236 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162236 Sat, 18 May 2019 18:05:27 +0000 DestinyRagashingo
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

I loved the fiery room mechanic of the flaming Servitor, where you have to hide as the various old Prison of Elders bosses are announced and fight you.

Um . . . What? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I have never seen that happen. I’ve never, ever seen that Servitor last more than approximately 30 seconds. I’ve only seen his burning attack like twice, ever.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162235 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162235 Sat, 18 May 2019 17:56:41 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) Yeah, the Scourge of the Past boss is fine. Lots to do. Lots of diverse roles. Map watcher. Strike teams. Boss shield generator killers. And it even outright kills you if your entire game plan is to stand in one spot and spam an overpowered weapon.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162234 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162234 Sat, 18 May 2019 17:54:43 +0000 DestinyRagashingo
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.

They don’t help any of the encounters already in the game. My hope is that now they don’t have to consider an infinite ammo high DPS sniper rifle going forward. Raga posted a handful of better solutions, though, so now I don’t know. It’s just another example of why I’m sort of exhausted with Destiny right now. Bungie excels at a lot of things, but they really need some fresh blood for designing boss encounters.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.

I’m still disappointed with the locked load out thing. The way they talked about it before launch made me think it would be much more common, and the way they handled hard mode for the raid lairs was at least a neat idea, even if it was lackluster in its implementation. I know lots would push back against implementing that more heavily, but I’d like to see them play with curated load outs a lot more.

It’s a tired comparison, but I find myself missing Halo’s sensibility more and more

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162233 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162233 Sat, 18 May 2019 17:54:13 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

The problem is that Whisper's zone of being SUPER EFFECTIVE just happens to almost always line up with the most tense moments in Destiny. Zero Hour is a good example where weapon specialization works well. But, most Raids where we get the best and most sought after rewards are on the other end of the spectrum. Way too many bosses have some fun mechanics to get them into a DPSable state... and then they are just huge targets sitting there for Whisper.

Imagine instead, if a boss fragmented into a pile of pieces that all needed to be killed quickly and it was a rocket launcher instead of the a sniper rifle that worked best? Or if a boss in its DPS phase released multiple quick yellow bar that by being released depleted the boss' health and dealing with them was better suited to heavy machine guns and stunning grenade launchers.

Instead, all throughout all of Destiny, it's been the infinite ammo sniper rifle shooting at the giant upscaled boss that has dominated Raid encounters. Which throws weapon specialization right out the window. An overpowered Whisper is fine with a more diverse set of encounters... but generally we don't have that so it needs to fit what we actually do have.

I do think they hit Whisper too hard, by the way. Imagine if they'd just cut its ammo generation in half or something. Then it could still be unique and do "it's thing" instead of feeling like a D.A.R.C.I. knockoff...

This is a great point too. It does show a certain over-dependence in the "everyone form up and hit the stationary boss during the damage phase!" mechanic that Bungie seems so fond of, especially in Raids. I love your suggestions. Another approach is to have boss encounters where your weapons literally can't hurt the boss, like Crota. That was another battle that encouraged specialization. You wanted to have a few people with sniper rifles to take care of the Boomer Knights and the oversoul, while other players might want to use tracking rockets or machine guns to deal with Crota's shield. There was no "must have" weapon... it was more about planning your loadout around what the team needed.

I'm ok with boss fights like the Scourge final boss from time to time. In that case, I see the "line up and blast him" portion as a sort of reward for doing everything else right. If you've left snipers alive, or failed to clear out the Fallen captain, then you'll be under too much fire to unleash a barrage of Whisper rounds. It's also an example of a fight where there are other equally effective alternatives to Whisper, despite its strength. I've used the Mountaintop and out-damaged teammates who were using Whisper. Shotguns can be very effective as well. And its well known that DARCI can consistently out DPS Whisper as well.
So even in a situation that seems tailored to Whisper, it isn't the clear winner.

All that said, I'm totally with you on the need for some more diverse boss fights.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162232 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162232 Sat, 18 May 2019 17:43:59 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) I agree. Your suggestions, by the way, are hundreds of time more useful than nerfing Whisper, which is kind of the point, I think.

Nerfing Whisper solves a problem that they are creating themselves. Sure, designing brand new encounters is hard, but isn't this nerf potentially helping devs slack off and repeat the 'damage phase immobile boss' all the time?

Also, what happened to mechanics where we damage the boss through the use of encounter items, as opposed to weapons? Those were fun! Remember WotM?

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162231 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162231 Sat, 18 May 2019 15:56:24 +0000 DestinyZackDark
*shudders* (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162230 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162230 Sat, 18 May 2019 15:49:28 +0000 DestinyZackDark THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) I think you make a great point about boss encounter design, but it’s a double-edged sword. The exodus black strike was taken out of the game for months because the community hated that boss fight so much, specifically because damage windows were capped and segmented. This bleeds into a whole discussion about why players are running these activities in the first place (enjoyment of the activity vs drops), but I’ll get back to that later.

I like your example of Shuro Chi as well. But I don’t necessarily feel that it’s evidence that Sleeper is too powerful. I like to think of weapons in Destiny as tools. For a tool to be satisfying, it must be useful. There needs to be a job for which it is well suited. Sleepers job is wrecking bosses. It doesn’t really work for ad clear. You don’t get enough ammo to use it on every major that pops up. But when that boss phase comes along, it earns its exotic slot, and all the time it took to unlock it.

I look at it this way:

You mentioned how little damage you were able to do with 2-Tailed Fox compared to Sleeper. Well, imagine Sleeper didn’t exist, and everyone on your team was using 2TF, or other rocket launchers. Would that have made the fight more fun for you, or anyone else? Probably not, I’d guess. I doubt you’d be able to get anywhere near the damage numbers required to beat her. It just wouldn’t be possible. Now, perhaps this is a situation where rocket launchers are not the right tool for that job (side-note: Bungie has failed to make Rocket Launchers particularly well suited to any job, and that’s part of the problem). Fine. But Bungie is moving in the direction of having no tools that excel at Boss DPS, where I’d prefer they went the other direction and gave us more options. Give us more weapons that can hold a candle to Sleeper and Whisper. They don’t need to be as strong, but close enough that those 2 weapons aren’t seen as “required” for boss battles. And as I mentioned earlier, for a while we did have other options (trench-barrel shotguns, box-breathing snipers, machine guns), but Bungie went and nerfed all of them to the point where Whisper and Sleeper were once again disproportionally stronger.

On top of all this, there is the factor that many people who play strikes or raids want to get through them as quickly as possible. They’re not running Scourge of the Past for the 49th time because they enjoy it... they just want their damn Anarchy, and it won’t drop for them. Or they’re trying to get their Oxygen SR3, so they’re crashing through strikes as fast as possible. It’s an interesting connection to the main topic we’re discussing. Many players go to such lengths because they want to earn weapons that are powerful or unique in their own specific ways.

It’s a complex issue, no doubt.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162229 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162229 Sat, 18 May 2019 15:36:41 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) The problem is that Whisper's zone of being SUPER EFFECTIVE just happens to almost always line up with the most tense moments in Destiny. Zero Hour is a good example where weapon specialization works well. But, most Raids where we get the best and most sought after rewards are on the other end of the spectrum. Way too many bosses have some fun mechanics to get them into a DPSable state... and then they are just huge targets sitting there for Whisper.

Imagine instead, if a boss fragmented into a pile of pieces that all needed to be killed quickly and it was a rocket launcher instead of the a sniper rifle that worked best? Or if a boss in its DPS phase released multiple quick yellow bar that by being released depleted the boss' health and dealing with them was better suited to heavy machine guns and stunning grenade launchers.

Instead, all throughout all of Destiny, it's been the infinite ammo sniper rifle shooting at the giant upscaled boss that has dominated Raid encounters. Which throws weapon specialization right out the window. An overpowered Whisper is fine with a more diverse set of encounters... but generally we don't have that so it needs to fit what we actually do have.

I do think they hit Whisper too hard, by the way. Imagine if they'd just cut its ammo generation in half or something. Then it could still be unique and do "it's thing" instead of feeling like a D.A.R.C.I. knockoff...

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162228 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162228 Sat, 18 May 2019 15:18:16 +0000 DestinyRagashingo
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either


Except for on that one Hydra boss from the Black Armory. That's hilarious enough to be left alone, though, in my book.

But, you're right, and it's a direction I wish Bungie would explore. Make things unique and interesting, with neat mechanics that reward exploring the edges a bit more and actually learning stuff and improving skill, rather than "the number got bigger" and "this just does huge DPS." Being powerful on its own can be fun, but it's not nearly as fun as playing with something cool and interesting that gives the base mechanics of Destiny a neat twist.

I think some of these nerfs are required, though. The hardest encounters in the game are designed in such a way that I couldn't use Trinity Ghoul (near the top of my favorite exotics--it's just fun!), because I couldn't afford to lose out on the sheer DPS of Whisper or Sleeper. It's honestly why I don't think there are many fun boss encounters in Destiny--they're mostly just DPS checks with few actual combat challenges. You just have to not die and deal massive amounts of damage--it's not exactly interesting.

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I’ll push back a tiny bit here, just because successfully chaining crits is not always that easy, even in some of those encounters. There is so much flinch with that thing, the reticule bounces like crazy. Plus even bosses like Calus or the Scourge guy have a habit of twitching just as I’m pulling the trigger :)

But even if I’m wrong about that, there’s an inherent trade-off with Whisper because it’s so specialized. It can absolutely wreck a Spider Tank, but it’s mostly useless in most other encounters. And I really like that trade-off. I like that when my team goes into Zero Hour, there’s a strategic discussion that happens where we decide if we want someone to bring Whisper to deal with the tanks. Because that can be super helpful, but it also means that player doesn’t have a heavy weapon to help with any of the other encounters in the mission. So the remaining 2 players need to choose their loadouts carefully, make sure that everyone has the right elemental damage covered, that the team has a plan for dealing with the super shanks and Captains, not to mention the boss himself. With these new changes, Whisper often won’t be so effective against the tanks, because you won’t have enough ammo. I’ve played through that whole mission without seeing a single purple brick several times.

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162227 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162227 Sat, 18 May 2019 14:36:18 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) On the other hand, there are far too many instances where the boss battles are no fun because players are able to melt bosses within a few seconds. One phasing the Last Wish Ogre? Or Callus? Or outright killing Inverted Spire or Warden of Nothing or the A Garden World bosses before they even get to attack? That’s terribly boring.

I loved the fiery room mechanic of the flaming Servitor, where you have to hide as the various old Prison of Elders bosses are announced and fight you. But now, especially as the more powerful heavy weapons have been introduced, two players Whispering that boss kill it I almost immediately and I never get to play the rest of the Strike.

So, there’s actually two issues here: Poorly designed bosses and overpowered weapons.

If Bungie intends for us to play an entire encounter, it needs to build in damage caps and phases into the bosses. We see these in some places already in more recent content. They need to be extended into the past content. With damage capping health segments a unusually good weapon or strategy won’t ruin the gameplay. Remember, while I like getting rewards from the Crucible, I like playing Crucible much more and a quick end to a game because I was joined into a game that immediately ends in a mercy is pretty much the worst Destiny experience for me. Having a Strike or Raid encounter end almost immediately is equally awful for me. So not all of this can be blamed on guns being too powerful. Boss design needs to be betterment too.

But sometimes weapons are too powerful. The best examples are the Kalli and Shuro Chi encounters. Teammates using Sleeper were able to triple my damage output when I was using my brand new Two-tailed Fox. Boy, that felt crappy. In the early runnings of Last Wish, our lower Light levels basically meant either everyone used Sleeper... or we straight up failed the Shuro Chi stun check and wiped. Destiny is a game where you are encouraged to build your own load out. And yes, the boss can be too tough or a player could bring a totally unsuited load out, but at some point, like when one or two weapons outperform literally everything else by 3x, the guns themselves are also part of the problem.

The Shuro Chi battles was one of the worst encounters in Destiny for me. I was getting one third the boss damage of everyone else so eventually I was assigned to an unlock plate so I’d be useful, and we had the Orpheus Rigs Hunter, so shooting things during the adds phase was also a no-no. The encounter is clever and interesting and fun. I got a lot of enjoyment watching my fire team complete it... (aka, I felt pretty useless in most of the encounter.)

Ultimately, I see these weapon nerfs as necessary, but they are only half the equation. Bosses need better design too. Look at the Eater of Worlds Hydra. There was some straight up DPSing required, but destroying its weak spots each round did not require DPS. It required sustained damage of any amount. Slow firing, high burst damage weapons were actually a liability. There’s no need for Bungie to entirely eliminate DPS phases in its boss designs, but it’s better when beating bosses requires a more diverse weapon selection.

Nerfing these weapons isn’t so much a walk back to mediocrity as it is past encounters unfortunately getting designed around just a few overpowered weapons. Weapons wouldn’t feel ineffective if bosses weren’t so tanky that they required the very top tier weapons to kill.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162226 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162226 Sat, 18 May 2019 14:18:48 +0000 DestinyRagashingo
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply) A reasonable supposition is that bouncing sleeper shots would somehow wreck in the new raid, so the nerf is pre-emptive. I can picture an encounter where lining up a ricochet is very easy and rather than redesign it they just nerf sleeper.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162225 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162225 Sat, 18 May 2019 08:37:00 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (reply)

Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either

Except for on that one Hydra boss from the Black Armory. That's hilarious enough to be left alone, though, in my book.

But, you're right, and it's a direction I wish Bungie would explore. Make things unique and interesting, with neat mechanics that reward exploring the edges a bit more and actually learning stuff and improving skill, rather than "the number got bigger" and "this just does huge DPS." Being powerful on its own can be fun, but it's not nearly as fun as playing with something cool and interesting that gives the base mechanics of Destiny a neat twist.

I think some of these nerfs are required, though. The hardest encounters in the game are designed in such a way that I couldn't use Trinity Ghoul (near the top of my favorite exotics--it's just fun!), because I couldn't afford to lose out on the sheer DPS of Whisper or Sleeper. It's honestly why I don't think there are many fun boss encounters in Destiny--they're mostly just DPS checks with few actual combat challenges. You just have to not die and deal massive amounts of damage--it's not exactly interesting.

I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162223 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=162223 Sat, 18 May 2019 05:52:59 +0000 DestinycheapLEY