I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy?

Wait, what? I'm now supposed to be using gaming as a measure of character? Yeah... no thanks. Not interested.

You don’t HAVE to. It’s not ALWAYS a measure of character. But it can be SOMETIMES.

But where do you draw the line?

• Cody went Cody and for some reason people still receive this as an unexpected affront.
• One man's grind is another man's treasure.
• I've never seen Sixth sense but know how it ends, so don't see a need in watching it.
• I beat all raids in D1, with all experienced teammates. To me, I was still playing blind. Even when I played them again...I still felt blind.
• I've not played any of the D2 raids, aside from a couple times when I've joined some teams to help them finish a small section. These people had no idea I knew nothing of the task. I was kind of a disaster.
• Claude, bless your heart man. A chanterelle sauteed in butter tossed in salt is a life changing thing. A cold beer with a plate of fried shrooms with horseradish sauce hits the spot every time. More for me, I reckon :)
• As for the salted chocolate, I will take a stand on this. Yes. Salted chocolate is legit. As is spicy chile chocolate. I'll fight anyone who says otherwise.

I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy?

Wait, what? I'm now supposed to be using gaming as a measure of character? Yeah... no thanks. Not interested.

You don’t HAVE to. It’s not ALWAYS a measure of character. But it can be SOMETIMES.

I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy?

Wait, what? I'm now supposed to be using gaming as a measure of character? Yeah... no thanks. Not interested.

(And for what it's worth, laziness is actually a pretty useful trait in the right context. A lot of great coding happens because good, lazy programmers want to do something once and be done with it.)

Lol.

That's efficiency more than laziness IMO.

It's both. Efficiency due to laziness.

I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy?

Wait, what? I'm now supposed to be using gaming as a measure of character? Yeah... no thanks. Not interested.

(And for what it's worth, laziness is actually a pretty useful trait in the right context. A lot of great coding happens because good, lazy programmers want to do something once and be done with it.)

Lol.

That's efficiency more than laziness IMO.

I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy?

Wait, what? I'm now supposed to be using gaming as a measure of character? Yeah... no thanks. Not interested.

(And for what it's worth, laziness is actually a pretty useful trait in the right context. A lot of great coding happens because good, lazy programmers want to do something once and be done with it.)

I'm not going to argue the point of whether storytelling is better or worse the first time - I don't think there's an answer to that question. I wanted to address this, though, because I thought about it before you wrote it down, but never got around to discussing it - and yet here it is:

It's as if a person says they don't like salt--a chef might want to drill down into that, suggest that the value of salt might not be casually dismissed--I mean, have you ever had salted chocolate?

This is the sort of argument that really, really bothers me. (Not salt, per se - but "you're missing out on X".) I hate mushrooms. I've almost always hated mushrooms. The only exceptions to this rule, in almost 50 years of consciously hating mushrooms (I started in grade school), are mushrooms that have no taste - the only ones I can think of are the long, stringy ones in hot and sour soup (they might have a mild taste, but it's completely buried by the spice of the soup, and all that's left is the texture, which doesn't bother me).

This completely consistent disgust is nevertheless second-guessed by every mushroom lover I've ever met. "Oh, you just haven't tried the right ones." "Oh, you just haven't had them prepared properly." "Oh, you're missing the glorious foods you can create with them."

No. No, no, and no. You're all wrong, and I'm tired of having to say it. I know me better than you know me, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd just stop trying to get me to change my mind on something that is this deeply set in stone. I don't like them, any of them, I can taste them in the foods you think you're hiding them in, and you're ruining those foods for me. ("I didn't think you'd notice.") Yes, they have a smell (even the button ones), and yes, that smell ruins my appetite. Period.

Do NOT tell me I can't "casually dismiss" them - I'm not. It's a long-term, highly-thought-out dismissal, and I'd thank you to not insult me by assuming otherwise.

Wow, the people who are forcing mushrooms on you or otherwise belittling your preferences are jerks. To be clear, so is anyone who disrespects people for not liking salt, spoilers, or The Last Jedi (the latter perhaps because they’re so enamored of their own wokeness that they automatically assume that anyone who dislikes that movie dislikes it for sexist reasons). The reason why people dislike something matters, and as Cody points out, some reasons are better than others. Let’s assume the chef is acting in good faith by (gently!) asking what you don’t like about salt. Knowing food as she does she realizes that cooking without salt is a major compromise that affects all the flavors in a meal. She might discover that you dislike salt because you were forced to eat at Crackerbarrel every Sunday of your childhood. She might rightfully conclude that salt itself might not be your issue, so much as salt being the dominant flavor of everything. A respectful conversation might be helpful to you both—you, in that it helps you better understand your own preferences, and her, in that she can prepare a more flavorful meal for you than she might have if she’d just taken your dislike of salt at face value.

I shouldn’t have used “casually dismiss” the way I did. Cruel did not casually dismiss discovery or curiosity—he gave a thoughtful justification for his preferences: those things distract him from other things he likes. If I may present another (silly) food comparison, maybe someone doesn’t like solid food because they allow themselves to chew only three times after they put something in their mouth. I believe that good stories—to get the most out of them—are best when “consumed” multiple times (a decade break between can yield marvelous treasures). Given Cruel’s justification, I intended only to raise the possibility that he doesn’t have to choose which aspects to enjoy.

Another theory I have about stories is that they are essentially portable life experiences that can be shared between people. Part of life is surprise and curiosity about what happens next. Some people might not like surprise and like knowing exactly what’s going to happen. Others may so crave surprise or obsess about what might happen that they can’t appreciate the small moments in the present. It’s not disrespectful to suggest there is value all along that continuum.

And there is a difference between liking something you don’t like and addressing a concern that someone may have a broader, deeper-seated bias that may need to be confronted. These are not in any measure equitable considerations. Salt or mushrooms are well enough in line with discussions of leisure. And for the record, salted chocolate is just ruined chocolate

And I personally have no recall based on any first run in any Raid, blind or not, I’ve run excluding Scourge of the Past. Which I have only run once. Without a lot more effort everyone here is working on more-or-less singular data points. Your experience is a singular data point.

It's as if a person says they don't like salt--a chef might want to drill down into that, suggest that the value of salt might not be casually dismissed--I mean, have you ever had salted chocolate?

This is the sort of argument that really, really bothers me. (Not salt, per se - but "you're missing out on X".) I hate mushrooms. I've almost always hated mushrooms. The only exceptions to this rule, in almost 50 years of consciously hating mushrooms (I started in grade school), are mushrooms that have no taste - the only ones I can think of are the long, stringy ones in hot and sour soup (they might have a mild taste, but it's completely buried by the spice of the soup, and all that's left is the texture, which doesn't bother me).

This completely consistent disgust is nevertheless second-guessed by every mushroom lover I've ever met. "Oh, you just haven't tried the right ones." "Oh, you just haven't had them prepared properly." "Oh, you're missing the glorious foods you can create with them."

No. No, no, and no. You're all wrong, and I'm tired of having to say it. I know me better than you know me, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd just stop trying to get me to change my mind on something that is this deeply set in stone. I don't like them, any of them, I can taste them in the foods you think you're hiding them in, and you're ruining those foods for me. ("I didn't think you'd notice.") Yes, they have a smell (even the button ones), and yes, that smell ruins my appetite. Period.

Do NOT tell me I can't "casually dismiss" them - I'm not. It's a long-term, highly-thought-out dismissal, and I'd thank you to not insult me by assuming otherwise.

I'm not saying this is the case for you, but what if someone disliked something because of a character flaw? What if someone likes say, grinding in a video game because they are lazy? Grinding isn't HARD after all, it just takes time. You don't really have to grow or learn or change to succeed; you just have to show up so to speak, and you are rewarded.

Would it not be appropriate in this scenario to suggest that the reason they like grinding - that it provides a reward and a sense of accomplishment without actually having to accomplish something, is itself a flaw? That it's not a good trait for them to have?

What if you dislike Star Wars because you are uncomfortable with a woman in a position of power over a male hero? Do you say okay? Or do you tell them not to be sexist?

There is no 'one' answer to your questions - it depends on the game, the day, the events that led to the activity, the enjoyment experienced the last time a similar activity was attempted... in the end, the doing of the thing that first time is just a single time, regardless of whether it was done with or without help, and the enjoyment that activity brings (over the life of the game) is overwhelmingly decided by the mechanics of the activity, because that first experience is completely drowned out by the dozens, or hundreds, of runs that come AFTER that first one.

That's like, the complete opposite in my experience. I vividly remember the first time for each, and all the subsequent runs get drowned out unless they are somehow special (such as flawless raider).

It's as if a person says they don't like salt--a chef might want to drill down into that, suggest that the value of salt might not be casually dismissed--I mean, have you ever had salted chocolate?

This is the sort of argument that really, really bothers me. (Not salt, per se - but "you're missing out on X".) I hate mushrooms. I've almost always hated mushrooms. The only exceptions to this rule, in almost 50 years of consciously hating mushrooms (I started in grade school), are mushrooms that have no taste - the only ones I can think of are the long, stringy ones in hot and sour soup (they might have a mild taste, but it's completely buried by the spice of the soup, and all that's left is the texture, which doesn't bother me).

This completely consistent disgust is nevertheless second-guessed by every mushroom lover I've ever met. "Oh, you just haven't tried the right ones." "Oh, you just haven't had them prepared properly." "Oh, you're missing the glorious foods you can create with them."

No. No, no, and no. You're all wrong, and I'm tired of having to say it. I know me better than you know me, and I'd really appreciate it if you'd just stop trying to get me to change my mind on something that is this deeply set in stone. I don't like them, any of them, I can taste them in the foods you think you're hiding them in, and you're ruining those foods for me. ("I didn't think you'd notice.") Yes, they have a smell (even the button ones), and yes, that smell ruins my appetite. Period.

Do NOT tell me I can't "casually dismiss" them - I'm not. It's a long-term, highly-thought-out dismissal, and I'd thank you to not insult me by assuming otherwise.

I’m genuinely curious though… at what point you draw the line.

Do you want to be told exactly what to do and where to go? Do you watch videos of the raid being completed beforehand? Do you want only vague hints? Do you want the mechanics described but not the strategies?

Is it like this for other genres or game modes? Why? Why not? I want to understand.

Depends ENTIRELY on how I feel when I start a new activity. (No longer just talking about raids - this includes new quests, etc)

Sometimes I want to figure it out for myself. I jump in, and I play.

Sometimes I just want to get to the end of the quest. I google the solution (which is 100% of the time online and searchable before I get around to playing).

Sometimes it's a combination - I start on my own, I hit something that I don't get past, I get bored and google the solution.

We blind-raided Crown of Sorrows a couple of weeks ago, and got through the 3rd (of 4) encounters without looking anything up. As long as the group is enthusiastic, and progress continues to be made, that's fun.

We reached a point where we had run out of time - if we were going to finish, we were going to need to learn the technique for the final encounter faster than it would come to us on our own. Enthusiasm had begun to wane anyway, so nobody had a problem with this.

There is no 'one' answer to your questions - it depends on the game, the day, the events that led to the activity, the enjoyment experienced the last time a similar activity was attempted... in the end, the doing of the thing that first time is just a single time, regardless of whether it was done with or without help, and the enjoyment that activity brings (over the life of the game) is overwhelmingly decided by the mechanics of the activity, because that first experience is completely drowned out by the dozens, or hundreds, of runs that come AFTER that first one.

::shrug::

You and I will never experience games the same way, and I'm not sure we'll ever really understand why the other one plays at all. And that's okay. :)

You are denying yourself a certain experience in favor of an experience anyone can have the second time through.

Um... if the experience you're 'denying' yourself isn't an enjoyable one (to you)... what's the relevance of this sentence?

Cruel's been pretty clear that he doesn't really enjoy the discovery phase - so 'denying' himself that phase seems... prudent.

I'm actually not the best puzzle solver so I'm not the best evangelist for the pleasure you get from solving puzzles. It doesn't really matter to me if Cruel doesn't like blind raiding. To be clear blind raiding and raiding are two separate activities. Let's be generous and assume that preferring one over the other isn't insisting that everyone has to enjoy the one you enjoy. Bungie obviously hopes that someone likes solving the puzzles they build into their raids. I think it's fair to defend the value of that experience in this discussion.

However, Cruel and Cody moved beyond puzzles in raids to storytelling, which I know more about. Cruel described being distracted by discovery or curiosity about what's going to happen next to the point that he couldn't focus on other qualities of storytelling that he appreciates. I think that's fair assuming that stories are to be experienced onlyonce--but in many cases they're not. I think it's C.S. Lewis who tells an anecdote where a woman stands in the stacks in library reading a book for 20 minutes before she realizes she's already read it and puts it back. Yes, the aspects that Cruel likes to focus on have value, but so do the discovery and curiosity that distract him. It's as if a person says they don't like salt--a chef might want to drill down into that, suggest that the value of salt might not be casually dismissed--I mean, have you ever had salted chocolate?

There's also the fact that Cruel does have that moment when he discovers what happens next--he just doesn't choose to have that within the experience that the creator was building for him. An aside: my mom loved books but at a certain point got on the Readers' Digest condensed books bandwagon. I never wanted to read them because, as an aspiring writer myself, I knew the work that went into picking the exact words and just enough of them. I wanted the full experience that the author intended. Whenever people debate things being spoiled, someone usually says it doesn't or shouldn't matter--it's the journey, not the destination. That's true, but it's also true that the frisson you get when you're surprised is sometimes vital to the experience of a narrative.

Do you want to be told exactly what to do and where to go? Do you watch videos of the raid being completed beforehand? Do you want only vague hints? Do you want the mechanics described but not the strategies?

Is it like this for other genres or game modes? Why? Why not? I want to understand.

When I first started playing video games, there was no set of tablets that said "thou shalt not learn the rules before you start" - this 'always' stuff you throw around is pretty much not 'always'. Some games include the joy of discovery in the play - others do not. Some leave it up to the player. When there's a choice, everyone can be happy - those who want to go in without rules, those who would rather understand the framework and work on the execution. This whole "here is how you play games" schtick is a bit annoying.

It's literally the point of the challenge though… to figure it out yourself. That's why challenges are put into games in the first place… to overcome them. You don't have to like every challenge of course! That's why we have different genres of games, each with their own set of things to overcome. You can pick the ones you like.

It's not literally the point of anything.

It's the point of the challenge FOR YOU.

Look at Flappy Bird. Figuring out what you're supposed to do is trivial. I have seen people who have never seen a video game before (my mom) understand the goal within 30 seconds. And yet... it keeps (some) people interested for very long periods of time.

The point is not the rules, in that case - it's the execution. Figuring out what you're supposed to do isn't even a MINOR challenge.

Destiny is a game that offers a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Blind raiding is a possibility - but NOT a requirement, and not even something that the developers are unhappy if you don't experience. Again - I'm glad you like doing it. I liked doing it, a couple of times. I actively avoid it now, because it's (for me) more trouble than it's worth. And my enjoyment of this game is no less valid than yours.

Please, please, please - stop telling me how to enjoy something. Stop telling me what the POINT of the game is - the point, for you, is not the same as the point for me, so there is no universal 'point'. Enjoy the gaming you do - but please don't try and impose your views on me. Thanks.

Yesterday, I ran through Shattered Throne with someone who was looking to grab corrupted eggs. He'd been through once, mostly knew what he was doing - just wanted the eggs. Partway through we were joined by someone who had never been in the ST before.

Both of them were happy to have me give them a brief summary of the goals, and the pitfalls, of each section as we got to it.

We got to the final bossfight, I started to lay out rules, and one of them jumped in and started it. Whatever - we just went with it. Killed the psions, knocked down the health of the knights, grabbed the orbs, went to town. Someone screwed up and let an orb expire before picking it up, but hey, we can do this with 2/3 buff, right?

One of 'em says "how come she's immune?"

After a couple of questions, I realized he'd stepped on the buff-clearing table. (I learned, for the first time, that once it's activated, it won't clear buffs again until the next round. Whee! That meant that if we didn't finish her, the other two of us were gonna die when the timer hit 0.

We died.

"How come you didn't warn me?" was the response. (Same guy who cleared the table was the guy who started early and cut off explanations, fwiw.)

Learning about mechanics by failing is NOT everyone's cup of tea. I'm glad it's yours... but I'm also glad there are ways of completing things without HAVING to be blind.

A good solution is this:

Difficulty levels, with the complexity of the mechanics rising with the difficulty level.

Maybe have a very easy mode with virtually no mechanics, and a hard mode with lots to keep track of. One of the biggest disappointments I've had with Hard Mode raids is that the mechanics are virtually the same. They could have instead thrown a wrench into each encounter with more plates to juggle.

Or... you could just let people enjoy playing the way they want to?

Yesterday, I ran through Shattered Throne with someone who was looking to grab corrupted eggs. He'd been through once, mostly knew what he was doing - just wanted the eggs. Partway through we were joined by someone who had never been in the ST before.

Both of them were happy to have me give them a brief summary of the goals, and the pitfalls, of each section as we got to it.

We got to the final bossfight, I started to lay out rules, and one of them jumped in and started it. Whatever - we just went with it. Killed the psions, knocked down the health of the knights, grabbed the orbs, went to town. Someone screwed up and let an orb expire before picking it up, but hey, we can do this with 2/3 buff, right?

One of 'em says "how come she's immune?"

After a couple of questions, I realized he'd stepped on the buff-clearing table. (I learned, for the first time, that once it's activated, it won't clear buffs again until the next round. Whee! That meant that if we didn't finish her, the other two of us were gonna die when the timer hit 0.

We died.

"How come you didn't warn me?" was the response. (Same guy who cleared the table was the guy who started early and cut off explanations, fwiw.)

Learning about mechanics by failing is NOT everyone's cup of tea. I'm glad it's yours... but I'm also glad there are ways of completing things without HAVING to be blind.

A good solution is this:

Difficulty levels, with the complexity of the mechanics rising with the difficulty level.

Maybe have a very easy mode with virtually no mechanics, and a hard mode with lots to keep track of. One of the biggest disappointments I've had with Hard Mode raids is that the mechanics are virtually the same. They could have instead thrown a wrench into each encounter with more plates to juggle.

When I first started playing video games, there was no set of tablets that said "thou shalt not learn the rules before you start" - this 'always' stuff you throw around is pretty much not 'always'. Some games include the joy of discovery in the play - others do not. Some leave it up to the player. When there's a choice, everyone can be happy - those who want to go in without rules, those who would rather understand the framework and work on the execution. This whole "here is how you play games" schtick is a bit annoying.

It's literally the point of the challenge though… to figure it out yourself. That's why challenges are put into games in the first place… to overcome them. You don't have to like every challenge of course! That's why we have different genres of games, each with their own set of things to overcome. You can pick the ones you like.