I don't.

It's hinting at something that could be cool, maybe, with some work.

I don't want to spend any currency that the game is already pretty stingy about handing out to rent a gun. I don't want to rent a gun and then not get rewards because I'm using a rented gun. I don't want to get a cool new weapon along with a bunch of caveats. Sounds needless and silly to me.

Banshee's weapon testing stuff was cool, because it was just a nice diversion to get you to try out new weapon archtypes.

I would, however, like to see more exotic quests give you the weapon early and then make the rest of the quest about upgrading it and unlocking its full potential. The evolution of the Braytech MWP MK II into Polaris Lance, for instance.

Catalysts are sort of that, but that feels a little more rote than I would like.

I think a way can be found to give players temporary/limited access to weapons so they can play the game for fun, rather than playing for progression. Ideally these things will overlap. I think sometimes they don't.

I was very careful to not propose a crippled version of a gun, because we do already have that in some ways, on a per-weapon basis. Nechrochasm was super cool in that regard, and I think that kind of idea led to catalysts and such.

Currency and economy are a careful balance. This is already a dance that's done, this doesn't have to ruin any economy or additional fun, if done intelligently and intentionally.

I've played a lot of destiny and destiny 2. I've hardly ever unlocked guns like nechrochasm to their full potential, usually due to time/resource constraints. I look at all the "grind" quests around PvP and, while I have completed some, and some have given me new ways to play, I find the game un-fun if I follow those hardcore and make that the reason for playing. So I go without, which is totally valid... and yet I wonder sometimes at what I am missing, and why I can't have access to those things over time... especially when I've "fallen behind" my peers. Those progression hooks become things that actively keep me away from the game.

For PvP I also am good enough to run with people who are in the top 25-30% or so of players -- and often don't put in the time to get the rewards that top tier players do. So I find myself up against players that have superior weaponry. This can also be fun, but in a brutal, challenging sort of way.

Other games deal with this directly bu allowing you to play pre-made characters with set inventory or best-of-class weapons. Others have modes where you can use anything and everything in a pseudo-sandbox mode -- but can't use it all outside of specific settings. Or make gear essentially irrelevant, and rely on stats and other boosts to make you more effective.

Lots of solutions to this, but this one struck me as particularly helpful for those who may want to enjoy the game without making it a part-time job. It's been said before, progression keeps people playing more and longer, which is great for the game. But not always good for individual players. I'm not sure this progression vs fun line has to be win-lose, and that's the general thought here -- how can we let people enjoy content without messing up the goals we are giving them for progression?

And this wasn't meant to be a "bungie, please plagarize this and implement it exactly as I've described" sort of suggestion. It was meant to highlight that there are ways of bridging this seemingly polarized issue. It would definitely take fleshing out and careful consideration... but I mentioned it not because I was bored on the internet, but because I hope someone there does take a moment to consider that question. They probably already have, and have hashed over that multiple times. But on the off-chance they haven't, here we are.

I only have like 13 Dusk Light shards, so I might do this for a few sessions.

but what is notable about forges are that many of these protection either don’t work or were not applied.

Specifically, the reason this works is that if 3 people are AFKing, you will fail the Forge encounter in 60 seconds, which is less time than it takes for the anti-AFK checks to kick in. However, failing a Forge still gives you materials and lore, which is what makes this such an efficient farm.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

If I put on gear that drops my level and then try to play the activity, then I'm affected and I'm not cheesing.

But what kind of gameplay experience are you hoping for when you try play an activity and the enemies you face are immune? A one-minute game of staying alive might be fun ... once.

You can say no one would or should do that, but I really don't like this distinction. It's like saying sure, I'm stealing, but I'm only stealing from thieves. I don't want to player Destiny with Dexter.

It's really irrelevant that anyone is in the session with you--no one in the session can affect the outcome. The timer runs out in a minute no matter what anyone does.

It's valid to say you're denying yourself the experience of earning the materials the legit way. It's valid to say you're stealing time the developer intended you to use playing their game. To an extent it's valid to say you're gaining an advantage over players. Certain weapons are always going to be give advantages--we covet those advantages, don't we? That said, it seems that more so than in the past, "any weapon will do" is the response to "what should I equip?" in the raid groups I play with, so I don't know how great that advantage is.

My thinking on this has evolved as Destiny has evolved. I don't think I buy the Dexter comparison in this case (caveat: never seen the show but know the premise). I was Dexter-like that one time I sat in a loot cave. I was misusing game mechanics to keep people from misusing game mechanics.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

Yes (insofar far as anything can be guaranteed in matchmaking). The Forge matchmaking has been demonstrated to be based on light level - you get matched with people close to your light. Granted if there are only three people playing forges in the world, I'm sure they'd be matched regardless of their light. But the reality is that there are many people going into forges at 600+ expecting to play, and many people people going into forges below 500 light expecting to AFK farm. In my personal experience, I've never matchmade with someone from the other population (and I've both farmed and completed over 100 forges). Unfortunately there are people who AFK without lowering their light - those people are dicks and it's OK to hate and report them.

Note that the initial enemy light level in the Forge is 610 - anyone going in with less than 560 will be unable to damage even the lowest level enemies, never mind compete the encounter.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

If you go beyond 400, yes, very much so.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

If I put on gear that drops my level and then try to play the activity, then I'm affected and I'm not cheesing.

You can say no one would or should do that, but I really don't like this distinction. It's like saying sure, I'm stealing, but I'm only stealing from thieves. I don't want to player Destiny with Dexter.

Last week in Menagerie wasn't I following after you running out of the chamber to run back and get a second shot at the chest?

Well, if you want to call that an exploit, sure. I still had to spend materials I earned to open the chest. Still had to beat the boss to get the chest to spawn in the first place. But I'm not willing to put that in the same category as idling in a matchmade activity in order to collect mats for doing literally nothing, and potentially trashing the experience of other users who I might get matched with.

~m

Well, it's not as bad as that, but it still sounds like an exploit to me?

https://gamerant.com/destiny-2-menagerie-chest-exploit-patch-announcement/

https://gamingbolt.com/destiny-2-update-fixes-menagerie-chest-exploit-adds-more-clan-xp-sources

https://www.pcinvasion.com/destiny-2s-menagerie-chest-exploit-will-get-fixed-in-july/

Seems to be the common term in use.

All this affects is how quickly you get rewards, and you'd get them faster than other players who won't use the exploit.

AFKing is negatively impacting the game experience directly for anyone you're with.

The idea that "just de-level yourself and you'll only be matched with others doing this... I don't know, is that guaranteed?

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

I like to think they're moving more toward a model where players can choose their level of engagement without sacrificing their ability to play with friends.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone whose cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

You are making the assumption people are doing it correctly :D

I am. It's their loss if they're not. They'll get bad feedback and probably get banned in short order.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone whose cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

You are making the assumption people are doing it correctly :D

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

You won't because you won't be matched with someone who is cheesing. Anyone matched in that session is also cheesing, and no one there has enough light level to kill the lowest level enemy anyway. It's impossible for anyone to win in that session.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

I agree, but every company wants their game to be your hobby. And as a company, you kinda have to assume it is their first hobby. To not do that would see the game short for those who do find it their hobby, but also make it diverse enough that it doesn't have to be a hobby for others. Honestly, I think that's a tough spot to be in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

It’s tough because Bungie have said before and reiterated that Destiny should be a hobby. I think ultimately I like gaming as a hobby. But not one exclusive game. It just seems like a lot to ask when there are so many other great games and experiences out there too.

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

I will also say that I don't condemn anyone for using cheeses, as long as it doesn't affect me. So if I want to legit do forges and I get someone who is afk farming... I'm not going to be happy.

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?

Keep in mind that I am the same asshole who once joked about sitting in the loot cave to prevent that exploit in D1, but the forge exploit feels less game breaking to me. You're not affecting other players experience of the game except in some tertiary effect due to more people having a certain gun sooner. I used to care more about that, too. The whole loot model was new to me five years ago.

Maybe I've loosened up. Also, getting world resources feels further upstream than getting exotic engrams. I find it tedious enough just turning all that stuff in.

I would say that I absolutely like playing the game. I love playing it--a bit too much. The trouble is I love doing other stuff, too. This will sound like Cody, but I'm no longer willing to give Destiny such a significant portion of my free time. And I offer no judgment of those who play more than me. You'll always be ahead of me and you'll always have plenty of stuff I don't have. It's all good.

But I think the philosophical argument still stands. Narc does have a point, and in that particular case I think it's less black-and-white by virtue of the mechanics that were in play (playing the boss death sound and having the chest respawn, all while having a 300+ second timer active); but I think a distinction is at least meaningful, if not important. One can call it moral relativism if they like, I just find tactics like idling to be beyond the pale.

~m

I agree with you. I don't do any full on cheeses that reward you for not playing the game. Not to mention, I like playing the game, so why would I skip that?