DBO Forums - Fair point, but I bet you dollars to doughnuts... https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/ Bungie.Org talks Destiny en Fair point, but I bet you dollars to doughnuts... (reply) ...that PG's get added to the Xur rotation once Shadowkeep drops. If he's been selling Forsaken Exotics, it stands to reason he'll carry newer/returning exotics. Especially ones that are/were "recently" meta-forward when that time comes. See the OMG-roll weekend we just had with OEM+Enhanced HC targeting as an example.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164304 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164304 Wed, 14 Aug 2019 14:28:42 +0000 DestinyMalagate
I don’t think “unavoidable deaths” is a thing. (reply) Oh, sure it is. Nova bomb to the face? But that's cruel's word, not mine.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164297 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164297 Wed, 14 Aug 2019 03:35:15 +0000 DestinyKermit
Seriously? (reply)

then this freight train just comes crashing through the whole thing and steamrolls over the part of the game that I love.


I love this way of describing your frustration with PvP supers. I immediately felt this concept reading it.

Boo hiss. Terminal was one of my all-time favorite H2 maps.

Cruel's just greedy. He never wants to lose, even for 10 seconds.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164296 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164296 Wed, 14 Aug 2019 03:33:46 +0000 DestinyKermit
I don’t think “unavoidable deaths” is a thing. (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164284 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164284 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 22:19:28 +0000 DestinyHarmanimus Seriously? (reply)

Next time, slap on some Peregrine Greaves, and bash a Super's head in. That'll stop yer cryin' real quick.

There’s the other bullshit part of what’s going on. I would do that, if I could ever get the fucking things to drop. You have an option that literally does not exist for me.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164283 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164283 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 22:10:54 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
Seriously? (reply)

I don’t think you’re making a fair comparison though, because Special Moves in Street Fighter require far more precise timing and anticipation to use effectively. They can also be countered or avoided more consistently and effectively. If we had more counters at our disposal in Destiny, I’d probably be a lot closer to your side of the argument. But right now, certain supers are pretty darn close to a “win button” in any encounter.

Try Killer Instinct on XB1. There's a F2P version if you don't have Gamepass.
There is an option to make combos as simple as repeatedly tapping a button. You can hit the once-coveted Ultra Combo with almost zero effort!
Think that's a win-button, though? You're going to get destroyed by medium-difficulty AI, because chaining combos isn't part of the game's challenge, outplaying the enemy is.
Sure, it puts you in a uniquely advantageous position, and if you capitalize on it well, you can do very well... But you can be outplayed to the point where you never even get a decent combo going.

That’s not true of all supers. I don’t mind Golden Guns. They’re dangerous AF, but 1 headshot with my sniper rifle, and they’re down. Plus they’re moving normally, so it isn’t exceedingly difficult to do. Other supers, however, are totally forgiving in terms of their activation window, don’t require skillful execution, are super durable, and last for a long time. It’s not impossible to stop them or make a mistake with them, but they’re lightyears beyond anything in Street Fighter.

A lot of that comes down to player faults, though. Is it the enemy's fault that your team didn't bring a Suppressor? Is it their fault that you didn't control the Heavy ammo? Should the enemy be punished because you decided to team up with randoms without planning accordingly?

Next time, slap on some Peregrine Greaves, and bash a Super's head in. That'll stop yer cryin' real quick.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164282 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164282 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 21:28:08 +0000 DestinyKorny
Seriously? (reply)

How many shots do you get now for golden gun? I remembering seeing a teaser vid with more than six.

Yeah, I don’t even know what the max is but it’s pretty crazy.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164281 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164281 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:24:02 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
Seriously? (reply) How many shots do you get now for golden gun? I remembering seeing a teaser vid with more than six.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164280 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164280 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 20:03:38 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
LOL :) (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164278 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164278 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:46:50 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY Seriously? (reply)

They mean the same thing though. If the baseline combat (primary and secondary weapons, basic movement and abilities) requires a certain amount of skill to successfully score a kill, and then another mechanic is added to the mix that requires less skill to get a kill, you have objectively lowered the overall skill gap.


I believe this is untrue. Even David Sirlin, Mr. 'Playing to Win' himself disputes this.

It's why for the SF2 Turbo remix he made special movies easier to pull off. The idea is that the strategic element of when to use a move is much more important and fun than whether you can do it at all. This philosophy has extended to all subsequent Street Fighter games.

But just because it requires less skill to physically execute the move does not lower the skill gap. The better players are still winning. However with the barrier lowered, what it takes to win shifts. You can't win anymore just because you can get move timings and your opponent can't. You have to outplay them.

I fully believe your real problem is that the game is shifting away from 'pure gunplay determines who wins'.

I don’t think you’re making a fair comparison though, because Special Moves in Street Fighter require far more precise timing and anticipation to use effectively. They can also be countered or avoided more consistently and effectively. If we had more counters at our disposal in Destiny, I’d probably be a lot closer to your side of the argument. But right now, certain supers are pretty darn close to a “win button” in any encounter.

That’s not true of all supers. I don’t mind Golden Guns. They’re dangerous AF, but 1 headshot with my sniper rifle, and they’re down. Plus they’re moving normally, so it isn’t exceedingly difficult to do. Other supers, however, are totally forgiving in terms of their activation window, don’t require skillful execution, are super durable, and last for a long time. It’s not impossible to stop them or make a mistake with them, but they’re lightyears beyond anything in Street Fighter.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164277 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164277 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:45:55 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
Seriously? (reply)

then this freight train just comes crashing through the whole thing and steamrolls over the part of the game that I love.

I love this way of describing your frustration with PvP supers. I immediately felt this concept reading it.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164276 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164276 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:42:16 +0000 Destinykidtsunami
Seriously? (reply)

The key phrase here is "The better players are still winning." I guess they should win by even more?

Again, it may not affect win rate at all.

You have only so much attention at a time. So you might be focusing 60% on perfecting and executing the physical motions, and 40% on the mental game. But if the moves are now easier to do, you can swap that attention. 40% physical, 60% mental for example. So if the mental game is sufficiently complex, you haven’t lowered the skill gap at all. You just shifted where player's attention needs to go.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164275 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164275 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:31:02 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
Seriously? (reply)

For me, it's a thought experiment that demonstrates what a worthless and loaded phrase "skill gap" is.


Skill gap is a useful tool for game design, but I don't think it's really being discussed correctly here. Skill gap is the distance between the best and worst players of your game, given a set of players who understand the rules.

Skill gaps are not narrowed by making 'easier' mechanics. Believe it or not, something like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart doesn't itself narrow skills gaps. Generally, small skill gaps are created by:

1. Randomness. High degrees of randomness lower skill gaps because player skill is no longer dictating the outcome.
2. Simple Mechanics. Mechanics which are simple, or lack complex interacting rules tend to create narrow skill gaps. This is because there is only so far you can go in mastering them. The skill gap in checkers is far less than chess. Why? Because it's harder to master chess due to the larger complexity of the rules.

That's really it. If you make a non random game with complex mechanics, it's going to have a large skill gap. Even if you have 'easy kill' moves or buttons!


These are some good points, but still... I have personally played many Mario kart races where I’ve been in the lead the entire time, right up until the end of the last lap when I get hit by a blue shell and end up finishing 5th. Setting aside any questions about whether or not that’s a good thing, how is it not artificially bringing the lead player down?

The specifics of the implementation matter. On Mario Kart 64, you know exactly who has and can fire a blue shell. You know exactly when they fire it. So you can either get far enough ahead, or dip into 2nd place really quick.

Online it might be a different story because you can’t screenlook and lack the information to counter the shell.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164273 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164273 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:20:29 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
Seriously? (reply)

They mean the same thing though. If the baseline combat (primary and secondary weapons, basic movement and abilities) requires a certain amount of skill to successfully score a kill, and then another mechanic is added to the mix that requires less skill to get a kill, you have objectively lowered the overall skill gap.


I believe this is untrue. Even David Sirlin, Mr. 'Playing to Win' himself disputes this.

It's why for the SF2 Turbo remix he made special movies easier to pull off. The idea is that the strategic element of when to use a move is much more important and fun than whether you can do it at all. This philosophy has extended to all subsequent Street Fighter games.

But just because it requires less skill to physically execute the move does not lower the skill gap. The better players are still winning. However with the barrier lowered, what it takes to win shifts. You can't win anymore just because you can get move timings and your opponent can't. You have to outplay them.

The key phrase here is "The better players are still winning." I guess they should win by even more?


I fully believe your real problem is that the game is shifting away from 'pure gunplay determines who wins'.

Is that it? I mean for what games has that ever been true? I thought the issue was that skill should determines who wins. That and he doesn't like unavoidable deaths in a match. From my humble position, I can't relate. I'm like...

[image]

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164272 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164272 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:14:17 +0000 DestinyKermit
Seriously? (reply)

For me, it's a thought experiment that demonstrates what a worthless and loaded phrase "skill gap" is.


Skill gap is a useful tool for game design, but I don't think it's really being discussed correctly here. Skill gap is the distance between the best and worst players of your game, given a set of players who understand the rules.

Skill gaps are not narrowed by making 'easier' mechanics. Believe it or not, something like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart doesn't itself narrow skills gaps. Generally, small skill gaps are created by:

1. Randomness. High degrees of randomness lower skill gaps because player skill is no longer dictating the outcome.
2. Simple Mechanics. Mechanics which are simple, or lack complex interacting rules tend to create narrow skill gaps. This is because there is only so far you can go in mastering them. The skill gap in checkers is far less than chess. Why? Because it's harder to master chess due to the larger complexity of the rules.

That's really it. If you make a non random game with complex mechanics, it's going to have a large skill gap. Even if you have 'easy kill' moves or buttons!

These are some good points, but still... I have personally played many Mario kart races where I’ve been in the lead the entire time, right up until the end of the last lap when I get hit by a blue shell and end up finishing 5th. Setting aside any questions about whether or not that’s a good thing, how is it not artificially bringing the lead player down?

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164271 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164271 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:11:11 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
Seriously? (reply) Randomness is key to this discussion.

Supers are so inherently random, especially when we talk about using them as option to shutdown other supers. Will my super beat his? Who the fuck knows, it feels different literally every time. I was using arc staff against a spectral blades the other day. We both used the right trigger attack at the same time. He nearly died. I did die. Why? Fuck if I know! It certainly wasn’t because he was more skillful than I was.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164269 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164269 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:03:46 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
Seriously? (reply)

There’s no way to know this, but . . .

I bet if you removed supers from PvP, the score gaps between better and worse teams would be significantly larger.


It's vaguely do-able, in that you could get two teams of 4 (or 6) together and have them play 100 games, using all the same weapons/classes. Then gave them play another 100 games, but don't use their supers. If one team wins 60/100 games the first set, what happens in the non-super one? Personally, I'd say it could go either way. Do supers allow the weaker team to regain map control? Or do they allow the better team to consolidate their lead, or beat back advances at critical junctures? Does either result say anything about the ease of use of supers?

For me, it's a thought experiment that demonstrates what a worthless and loaded phrase "skill gap" is.

I’m actually not a fan of it either... I keep using it because it gets thrown around often enough that everyone seems to have a decently common understanding of it, but it’s not really a great term for capturing this stuff. And I haven’t been able to think of a simple word or phrase that’s better.

As I’ve said before, my personal problem with supers has nothing to do with the effect they have on the final outcome of a match. I’m more focused on the moment to moment gameplay where positioning and sight lines and map control are all being contested through gunplay and movement, and then this freight train just comes crashing through the whole thing and steamrolls over the part of the game that I love. And some of the supers offer far more reward than risk to the user (which is where the “skill gap” thing comes in, but I agree it doesn’t really capture the point correctly).

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164268 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164268 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 19:01:05 +0000 DestinyCruelLEGACEY
Seriously? (reply)

For me, it's a thought experiment that demonstrates what a worthless and loaded phrase "skill gap" is.

Skill gap is a useful tool for game design, but I don't think it's really being discussed correctly here. Skill gap is the distance between the best and worst players of your game, given a set of players who understand the rules.

Skill gaps are not narrowed by making 'easier' mechanics. Believe it or not, something like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart doesn't itself narrow skills gaps. Generally, small skill gaps are created by:

1. Randomness. High degrees of randomness lower skill gaps because player skill is no longer dictating the outcome.
2. Simple Mechanics. Mechanics which are simple, or lack complex interacting rules tend to create narrow skill gaps. This is because there is only so far you can go in mastering them. The skill gap in checkers is far less than chess. Why? Because it's harder to master chess due to the larger complexity of the rules.

That's really it. If you make a non random game with complex mechanics, it's going to have a large skill gap. Even if you have 'easy kill' moves or buttons!

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164267 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164267 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:56:13 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
Seriously? (reply)

There’s no way to know this, but . . .

I bet if you removed supers from PvP, the score gaps between better and worse teams would be significantly larger.

It's vaguely do-able, in that you could get two teams of 4 (or 6) together and have them play 100 games, using all the same weapons/classes. Then gave them play another 100 games, but don't use their supers. If one team wins 60/100 games the first set, what happens in the non-super one? Personally, I'd say it could go either way. Do supers allow the weaker team to regain map control? Or do they allow the better team to consolidate their lead, or beat back advances at critical junctures? Does either result say anything about the ease of use of supers?

For me, it's a thought experiment that demonstrates what a worthless and loaded phrase "skill gap" is.

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164265 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164265 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:46:33 +0000 Destinysquidnh3
Reimagining "competitive" Destiny (reply)

No, it has one with a strong Neutral Game, one with a Shutdown Super, and one that has a strong Neutral Game (so long as you aren’t afraid to be close to enemies), can outcompete most other roaming supers due to what is basically a damaging teleport, lasts a really long time even without quality performance, and has an excess of baseline survivability. Perhaps, just perhaps, the playspace is just that much different on PC than consoles that could be it. But I’d guess it is more likely a question of playstyle.


I understand play style, but I just don't think a "brawler" play style is doable in PvP. I've really wanted it to be and I've definitely tried. I think two grenades and shoulder charge is far more viable as a neutral game than shotgun/melee. There is just no good way for a titan to close distance.


I recorded a clip today of a Titan who’s running skills were some of the best I’ve ever seen. He’d run at me, shotgun drawn, and I just couldn’t hit him. He didn’t jump or slide, he just kinda zig-zagged towards me, always changing directions right as I fired. Made me think “boy, I’ve gotta learn how to do that!” :)

But then you'd have to play as a Titan, so I dunno man… :-p

]]>
https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164264 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=164264 Tue, 13 Aug 2019 18:42:20 +0000 DestinyCody Miller