Fen Church is actually Uldren!!

He's got the worst luck in siblings ever!

I can't believe they are building his character just to become another vendor.

Have you played Destiny before? (:

It seems like exactly what they would do.

Fen Church is actually Uldren!!

I honestly can't believe they don't have novels.

It felt kind of obvious that working around the books was more bothersome to them than worth it.

We also kinda saw what happened when Halo was taken over by 343 and they went hard on being integrated into the books.. people just got annoyed that important plot points that would have been cool to play in a game were put in a book instead.

...its actually a show about a whole group of villains who all think they're heroes, and spend the entire series doing terrible things and justifying it to themselves.

Isn’t this the premise of Arrested Development?

I think you mean Always Sunny.

Don’t they all know they’re horrible? Lol

...its actually a show about a whole group of villains who all think they're heroes, and spend the entire series doing terrible things and justifying it to themselves.

Isn’t this the premise of Arrested Development?

I think you mean Always Sunny.

...its actually a show about a whole group of villains who all think they're heroes, and spend the entire series doing terrible things and justifying it to themselves.

Isn’t this the premise of Arrested Development?

Bungie has been riding that trite concept for a bit too long at this point. Ghaul, Uldren, the emperor, the Fanatic, even the Darkness itself! It's bland at this point, because the "hero of their own story" angle is predicated on the villain's ignorance, or mistaken perspective.

You must dismiss as bland all villainy then, because evil is itself ignorance or mistaken perspective.

In my opinion, good antagonists are one (or both) of the following:

1. Built with an emotionally comprehensive and understandable psychology
2. Metaphors for our fears or anxieties.

One is not nessesarily better than the other (for instance, Michael Meyers is infinitely more interesting as a villain in the original Halloween than in the screen vomit that was Rob Zombie's remake that gave him a backstory).

Right. I might agree with Korny that certain villains are one dimensional and writers can lean too heavily on one aspect in their characterization of them, but you can't say a basic psychological truth is trite or hackneyed--it just is. Human beings try to justify their behavior. It's simply what they do.

The Saint-14 concept art that kept the Bungie team inspired throughout development of Season of Dawn. Created by @Eric_S_Pfeiffer. pic.twitter.com/yLhWurB4Dm

— Bungie (@Bungie) December 4, 2019

Look at those Plums!

"Beautiful bluish hue [to 'em]
The Sun just dancin' right off them just nice"

Saint-14 attacked a group of Fallen who had made a home far from the wars taking place on Earth and in the Reef. Their leader known as the Baron of Shanks woke to his people being slaughtered by Saint-14 and his fireteam. The baron had built a ton of powerful shanks and they put up a really good fight but could not stop the Guardians so this baron leads Saint-14 into a sealed bunker and puts a forcefield between himself and Saint-14, like the barrier between the Jedi and Darth Maul in Episode 1, and they… talk.

Mostly, they just ask questions back and forth. The Fallen Baron asks Saint-14 why he has been leading his unending campaign against the Eliksni. Saint-14 asks if the Baron knows what gift the Traveler gave to the Eliksni back during their version of the Golden Age. Near the end, the baron tells Saint-14 he thinks he can kill him and his Ghost by detonating the entire bunker in one huge blast. He might have even been right since Saint-14 accepts this saying it would be a fair trade because the blast would also kill the baron and then Saint-14's fireteams would be safe. But then this Baron of Shanks asks a profound question:

Do you think that if I allowed you to live the Great Machine would bless us again?

Saint-14 doesn't really respond, but it's clear the baron has changed his mind about fighting Guardians. He turns off the shield between himself and Sain-14 and opens the blast doors and Saint-14 looms over him... but then leaves peacefully. One Fallen, at least, was redeemable in Saint-14's eyes even though he continues to hunt them everywhere else…

I really like the Fallen lore in the past few releases. We're really getting to see how desperate and scared they are. And we're seeing the terrible tole our solar system and its inhabitants have had on what was left of the Fallen. They are close to being extinct now and any that are alive are fighting a losing battle against Guardians and Hive and Vex and Cabal and each other... It's a very tragic story for them.

(Oh, also, the Grimoire has an illustration of that moment where Cayde-6 and the Fallen Captain fought side by side against a wave of Hive that attacked them on the moon. I got a kick out of seeing this!)

Let's look at Wilson Fisk in the Daredevil Netflix series.

I'd just like to add that anyone who hasn't seen that series REALLY should. Fisk might be the single best villain in any on-screen Marvel property I've seen. And he's just one of many great elements in a generally fantastic cast and story.

If you do see the first season and are into it, maybe consider watching all the Defenders stuff. Even Iron Fist. It has its flaws but I still enjoyed it, especially a certain performance in season 2.

Bungie has been riding that trite concept for a bit too long at this point. Ghaul, Uldren, the emperor, the Fanatic, even the Darkness itself! It's bland at this point, because the "hero of their own story" angle is predicated on the villain's ignorance, or mistaken perspective.

You must dismiss as bland all villainy then, because evil is itself ignorance or mistaken perspective.

In my opinion, good antagonists are one (or both) of the following:

1. Built with an emotionally comprehensive and understandable psychology
2. Metaphors for our fears or anxieties.

One is not nessesarily better than the other (for instance, Michael Meyers is infinitely more interesting as a villain in the original Halloween than in the screen vomit that was Rob Zombie's remake that gave him a backstory).

But from your post it sounds that you simply want more of #2. But this then goes back to the real question of why Destiny's story keeps failing:

What is Destiny about?

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/e88l8v/the_fallen_and_the_risen_why_mithraxs_house_of/

I want more enemies driven by desperation...

Isn’t that the Fallen? Their planet was ravaged by the Darkness and those that survived fell into infighting even as they followed the Traveler to our system. They went from a noble people to pirates, scavengers, murderers, and (according to Saint-14) cannibals. They preyed on, fed on, the remains of human civilization after our own Collapse and could not be bargained with as a whole because of their hopelessness and their fractured, constantly in-fighting houses lacking any global sense of unity.

Yes, they have largely been defeated now, except for the undead variant that tore apart the Awoken’s territory and perhaps Varik’s group that is regrouping somewhere. But... they (and perhaps the Vex and Hive) all sense their rapidly approaching annihilation and are trying to prevent it by any means necessary.

Granted, we know all this now. We should have known this closer to 2014... but we have what we have...

Of course, you can argue that those two things are the basis of most villainy, but far too many stories rely on that to substitute character development, or they fail to reinforce the villain's motives in any other way.

Let's look at Wilson Fisk in the Daredevil Netflix series. When introduced, he very much feels like he's the hero of his story. He loves the city, and thinks he's saving it by managing the different criminal syndicates that pollute it. But instead of just coasting off that, and giving us yet another generic villain blinded by his own arrogance, the show explores his childhood, and shows us why he veered in this direction in the first place.
We see that he's not really feeling like a hero, since much of what he does is lashing out at his upbringing, and his father. The show moves his character forwards when he finally acknowledges that no, he was never the hero.

"I always thought that I was the Samaritan in that story. It's funny, isn't it? How even the best of men can be deceived by their true nature.... It means that I'm not the Samaritan. That I'm not the priest, or the Levite. That I am the ill-intent... who set upon the traveler on a road that he should not have been on."

It's the turning point that elevates him to a true villain and threat, and the show is better for it. In season two, this idea is explored further for the protagonist with Frank Castle, who sees himself as a villain, but a necessary evil without regard to his own well-being.
Those two things, the "necessary evil", and the "HotOS" are very similar, but you can empathize better with the former, because of the self-awareness, or in Fisk's case, you fear them more, because they embrace their malevolent nature, removing lines that they otherwise would not cross, and they're not working towards something that they think is better for others.

So how could Bungie improve instead of giving us the same tired stuff?
They're not that far.
I've often felt that as far as Bungie's enemies go, the less we understand them, the better they can be as enemies. At this point, do we really fear the Fallen? Are the Cabal more than just an annoyance anymore? Do we even remotely feel like the Emperor will betray us before Destiny 3?

The two things Bungie has going for them are the Hive, and the Darkness, and they've diminished them as something to fear.
The Hive, we understand a bit, but their philosophy is alien enough that we can't really know what they're capable of next. The Darkness are shown to be HotOS-minded, but we've only seen the tip of the iceberg as far as their capabilities go, and we have the Collapse as a hint of that. We have never really understood their motives.

I want more enemies driven by desperation, or who are so alien, that they can't bargained with, can't be reasoned with. Who don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear.

But again, all of that is irrelevant to Neo-Uldren, who has been shown to not have the capacity for evil (choosing to isolate himself rather than lashing back at the Guardians who keep killing him).

We literally went from having to take the city back from the Cabal to letting a group of Fallen set up shop in the heart of it, all the while Zavala was harping about how we needed to stay home and defend the city. He must be shit at his job. Better yet, we clear out the Hive from the Moon in the last game, only for them to build the biggest goddamn castle I’ve ever seen in the exact same spot while no one was looking. No one thought to maybe keep an eye on the Moon, huh?

The characters of Destiny flop from one random event to the next without any of it seeming to matter.

I hopped on Tuesday, got as far as playing the Sundial and opened up the Mars obelisk. Seemed neat, but I do not feel the need to spend the next three months doing that five hundred more times. I feel like I probably should play far enough to meet Saint-14, though.

Did you ever read Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut? The way its told is as a sort of meandering recollection of events from a single narrator's POV. But he doesn't tell the story in anything close to a linear fashion. He jumps back and forth from event to event, constantly referencing stuff that happens elsewhere in the story as if he's already told you, but he hasn't. You spend the entire book just waiting for him to finally just lay out a concise series of events, but he never does. And yet, somehow, by the end of the book you basically have the whole picture. It's told in a completely scattershot way, and you're left to piece a lot of it together for yourself, but it's all there.

The written word and visual media work very differently when it comes to storytelling…

It's all very haphazard and messy, but there is an actual sense of history starting to come together. Not "lore", but history that we are directly a part of.

Sounds about right. :-p

I have no problem with characters who enter the picture, have their story, and then leave. I just wouldn’t want EVERY character to be used that way.

So we are halfway through the supposed 10 year span of Destiny… does it feel like we are halfway through an overarching story? Or does it feel like we've got a bunch of smaller ones that don't intersect much?

I am actually asking because It's been a year since I've experienced any new story content. (December 23rd is my one year Destiny sobriety).

Did you ever read Galapagos by Kurt Vonnegut? The way its told is as a sort of meandering recollection of events from a single narrator's POV. But he doesn't tell the story in anything close to a linear fashion. He jumps back and forth from event to event, constantly referencing stuff that happens elsewhere in the story as if he's already told you, but he hasn't. You spend the entire book just waiting for him to finally just lay out a concise series of events, but he never does. And yet, somehow, by the end of the book you basically have the whole picture. It's told in a completely scattershot way, and you're left to piece a lot of it together for yourself, but it's all there.

Destiny is kinda like that at this point. Especially if you include the lore pieces that are included with some of the triumphs, the little lore pieces Bungie is posting on their site, and the grimoire stuff (setting aside the whole "that stuff should be in the game" discussion).

That said, I think a great deal of Destiny's storytelling is poorly done. Much of the written lore is great, but in-game character development is still terrible IMO, with 1 or 2 possible exceptions. But I do like the fact that they are now beginning to take "one and done" events from the first couple years of Destiny and tie them to things we are doing now. Threads are forming and being pulled together. It's all very haphazard and messy, but there is an actual sense of history starting to come together. Not "lore", but history that we are directly a part of.