The key difference between Abrams and Johnson’s films, then, is an understanding of the Jedi. For Johnson, a Jedi is a hero and everyone has the potential to be heroic – it does not erase their flaws; in fact, overcoming the binary thinking of good and evil and embracing one’s flaws is crucial to a hero’s journey. To Abrams, it’s about power, and men understand power very differently: It’s inherited; it’s handed from one man to another without hesitation; it’s a right, not a privilege. They will commit countless atrocities and acts of oppression and subjugation to keep others – the marginalized – from wrestling it away. Take, for instance, Finn: The Rise of Skywalker suggests (and John Boyega and Abrams both confirm) that Finn is Force-sensitive, despite the fact that he is not related to any Sith or Jedi. Rey, on the other hand – the trilogy’s hero, who happens to be a woman – cannot possibly have power unless she inherited it from some crusty old white guy. The man needs no qualification to obtain power, but the woman does. It’s pretty insulting.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/30/knives-out-has-something-important-to-say-about-the-rise-of-skywalker

It's this kind of stuff that makes me want to wash my hands of Star Wars forever, or at least stop discussing it with any hint of seriousness. (I mean, Kylo got his force sensitivity from his MOTHER, which renders this whole passage nonsensical.)

If I did accept this analysis, I'd be in the Rian camp. To me the non-genetic aspect of the Force was one of the few things that The Last Jedi got right. The closest Star Wars (or as the kids like to say, Episode IV) ever got to saying the Force wasn't available to anyone was the intonation of "The force is strong in this one." As far as I'm concerned, the franchise jumped the shark the first time midichlorians were mentioned.

The key difference between Abrams and Johnson’s films, then, is an understanding of the Jedi. For Johnson, a Jedi is a hero and everyone has the potential to be heroic – it does not erase their flaws; in fact, overcoming the binary thinking of good and evil and embracing one’s flaws is crucial to a hero’s journey. To Abrams, it’s about power, and men understand power very differently: It’s inherited; it’s handed from one man to another without hesitation; it’s a right, not a privilege. They will commit countless atrocities and acts of oppression and subjugation to keep others – the marginalized – from wrestling it away. Take, for instance, Finn: The Rise of Skywalker suggests (and John Boyega and Abrams both confirm) that Finn is Force-sensitive, despite the fact that he is not related to any Sith or Jedi. Rey, on the other hand – the trilogy’s hero, who happens to be a woman – cannot possibly have power unless she inherited it from some crusty old white guy. The man needs no qualification to obtain power, but the woman does. It’s pretty insulting.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/30/knives-out-has-something-important-to-say-about-the-rise-of-skywalker

All they had to do was not give him that stupid line, and it would have been fine, would have actually fit with the themes of The Last Jedi, but JJ spent a lot of this movie trying to "fix" shit that didn't need to be fixed.

I think he mostly did a pretty good job following The Last Jedi and wrapping up the trilogy, but he also definitely got his jabs in, often in the dumbest way possible. It's a shame, because there's actually a really great movie hidden in there.

In context, none of those are black bagging Ep8.

Completely threw ep8 under a bus

After having watched it, I literally cannot figure out where this take came from.

• Sidelined rose
  
• Poe rolls back to being a cocky pilot and demonstrates no leadership qualities
  
• Luke literally catches a ligthsaber and makes a glib comment about it
  
• Makes Rey a Palpatine...

Have I not sufficiently personalized my arguments to make it clear this is my opinion? Be that as it may, it is not based solely on personal feelings.

You made it perfectly clear, given that you wrote it. That was just snark, because this forum seems to have a real hard-on for pointing out that opinions are just opinions, as if that’s not already perfectly clear.

I enjoyed the new movie, and I'm glad for you that you got so much out of this trilogy. I've tried only to express why I got less. As I said in a previous thread, I think The Last Jedi will be seen as the most dated movie so far, and this trilogy will seem to be a disjointed mess by future generations who don't view them through the lens of nostalgia.

I agree that it’ll feel disjointed, but I don’t think it’s fair to lay that at the feet of The Last Jedi. If they wanted a trilogy, they should have write a trilogy and had a plan.

It doesn't, but one can argue that it loses a substantive part of its value by moving away from that.

ESB belongs right in the middle of all of this in blinding support to TLJ. what TLJ did is not new and neither is the flack it receives for it.

It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal.

That's just subjective man, in case you didn't know opinions were subjective.

Have I not sufficiently personalized my arguments to make it clear this is my opinion? Be that as it may, it is not based solely on personal feelings.

But seriously, why? Star Wars have been that, but that doesn't necessitate that they must always be.

It doesn't, but one can argue that it loses a substantive part of its value by moving away from that. The original Star Wars was essentially a fairy tale. I'd argue that that's always been the series' greatest strength and power. (For the record, I think that, at least until The Last Jedi, the greatest dilution of this power came from the prequels.) One can dismiss this element as kid stuff, but doing so risks sounding ignorant about the importance of myth and fairy tales (see Campbell and Bettelheim).

{I'd also argue that The Last Jedi isn't as subversive to those themes as most want it to be, whether they love or hate the movie.)

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.

I think The Last Jedi is legitimately my favorite Star Wars movie, but I agree it has issues and could have been better. There is some poor plotting, but I mostly think the actual writing is brilliant. Why the nitpick on new Force powers, though? I see this complaint a lot, and I just don't get it. You think maybe the (arguably) most powerful Jedi to ever exist might learn and utilize some new things. I also think the notable Force ability was used absolutely brilliantly (and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

I enjoyed the new movie, and I'm glad for you that you got so much out of this trilogy. I've tried only to express why I got less. As I said in a previous thread, I think The Last Jedi will be seen as the most dated movie so far, and this trilogy will seem to be a disjointed mess by future generations who don't view them through the lens of nostalgia.

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

I think that's a fair point. Luke's behavior is one of apathy, it's one of genuine fear. He struggled with and overcame his fear in the original trilogy, but facing Vader is altogether different than the fear of being responsible for the creation of the next Vader, the the fear that he may do so again if he remains a Jedi or teaches another.

I think Luke's reaction is totally valid, and I honestly don't see his character as different. He seems like the same old Luke to me, just one that's a bit lost.

I mean, think about it. If his father really was the one to bring balance to the force...the one of prophecy...he was afraid he would be responsible for the undoing of all that everyone had worked for. The weight of the galaxy on the shoulders of one man...at least from his perspective.

I do think seeing that broadcast and having the rebels react to it on screen in the movie might have helped a little. Again, in a move that already feels stuffed, I'm not sure how you fit it in, but I think it would have helped. But, again, it's such a ridiculous thing, I can totally see why they just tell you it happened, because at a certain point, I'm not sure there's much they can really do to make you buy in anymore than you would just be reading about it in the crawl.

Maybe it's what you were looking for? Or something more?

(and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

In fact, IMHO, JJ used it marvelously.

Yes, it was fantastic, along with the lightspeed skipping scene, which also embraces The Last Jedi and provides a neat (if extremely dangerous) solution to being tracked through lightspeed.

I'm actually eager to see Rise of Skywalker again. There are lots of things I don't like in regards to its treatment of The Last Jedi, but it does actually embrace quite a bit of it, and does some great things with the material. The Rey/Ben connection is fantastic in both movies, and JJ really cranking that up was just brilliant. I hate the kiss, but their character relationship was excellent and well-utilized otherwise.

The first and most important is one that could not have been possible with the unfortunate death of Carrie Fisher. The Han moment should have been Leia. Han felt out of place to me (despite how much I loved to see him again). This film should have been about Ben and Leia, the inverse reflection of Luke and Anakin. I think it was pretty widely know that this was supposed to be Leia's movie, and unfortunately that didn't happen, and it couldn't, given the circumstances. I've no doubt they did what they could with what they had. You can maybe read the scene with Han as still being Leia's doing, somehow. She was clearly doing something, her body stuck around until Ben died.

The other thing would have been giving the Emperor more time, somehow. I haven't worked out how to do this, the movie is already blistering fast, I'm not sure how you smash anything else into it. But, as it stands, you're just told the Emperor is back, and you either have to buy that or the movie mostly just feels completely ridiculous. Leading me in would have helped, I think. It mostly still worked for me, but that's based solely on the presence of the Emperor and how sinister and terrifying he is. Some clearer motivation for Kylo to accept him (beyond, hey, here's a bunch of Star Destroyers if you do what I want). Although, at a certain point, it doesn't matter how they set it up, bringing Palpatine back is silly and ridiculous, so maybe just revealing that in the opening crawl and making the audience buy it before the movie even starts was the only way to do it.

There are a few things I would have taken to the extreme, too. It's already a movie that has a lot of fan service, there is one moment I'd have loved to see that cranked to eleven, and that's the Jedi past moment. Hearing all those voices was extremely cool and satisfying, and it really worked for me. But why not go that extra step? Seeing Rey surrounded by dozens of Force ghost Jedi would have made that scene. It would be extremely difficult to do it while not feeling and looking ridiculous, but if it was done right, I'd have loved it.

(and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

In fact, IMHO, JJ used it marvelously.

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

I think that's a fair point. Luke's behavior is one of apathy, it's one of genuine fear. He struggled with and overcame his fear in the original trilogy, but facing Vader is altogether different than the fear of being responsible for the creation of the next Vader, the the fear that he may do so again if he remains a Jedi or teaches another.

I think Luke's reaction is totally valid, and I honestly don't see his character as different. He seems like the same old Luke to me, just one that's a bit lost.

It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal.

That's just subjective man, in case you didn't know opinions were subjective.

But seriously, why? Star Wars have been that, but that doesn't necessitate that they must always be.

{I'd also argue that The Last Jedi isn't as subversive to those themes as most want it to be, whether they love or hate the movie.)

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.

I think The Last Jedi is legitimately my favorite Star Wars movie, but I agree it has issues and could have been better. There is some poor plotting, but I mostly think the actual writing is brilliant. Why the nitpick on new Force powers, though? I see this complaint a lot, and I just don't get it. You think maybe the (arguably) most powerful Jedi to ever exist might learn and utilize some new things. I also think the notable Force ability was used absolutely brilliantly (and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

Again, it's not the path of Luke's arc that bothers me, but how his character was written. The Luke in the original trilogy, had he become a hermit, would have not acted like Luke in The Last Jedi barring some brain injury. He had a completely different personality. I believe Luke served as Rian's surrogate and Rey served as the Star Wars' fan surrogate. I don't think he was trying to be consistent with Luke's character or serve the story so much as screw with (or "educate") fans that had what he saw as silly, simplistic expectations. Rian has said again and again that he doesn't think he's done a good job unless some people strongly dislike his movies. That's his artistic mojo. I actually respect that, and I like many movies with moral ambiguity that divide audiences. It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal. He would be a better director for a Star Trek movie--that franchise has a more complex moral topography, and has a history of including allegories that represent current cultural issues. This is why a lot of people like Star Trek more than Star Wars, and that's fine. Viva la difference, I say.

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

100%? I have my doubts, but regardless, the way to sell it isn’t with a few minutes of exposition after nearly an hour of showing this unrecognizable character. In my opinion it’s a shoddily made movie.

This is where we differ… he's not unrecognizable at all.

Luke was never perfect. He always made mistakes. That's the whole point of empire. He fails in the cave. He leaves his training early. In Jedi he fucking wails on Vader and nearly gives into hate. So the idea that he for just a second gave into fear with regard to Kylo Ren is not only plausible, but actually quite in character.

You seem totally caught up on the hero's journey thing. It's not a story blueprint dude. And one of the biggest mistakes in being critical of stories is to compare it against what WE would want for the characters. I know this isn't the Luke YOU wanted or envisioned. But it's completely consistent with everything before, and you need to just open up and let the story be told. Especially because what we may want is often not as good as what we need. We don't get anything if Luke is just a badass Jedi like in the EU. This is a much better story.

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.