I do want point out that it's unfair to respond to a pay disparity conversation by saying "The 22 year old handling the company’s twitter account does not deserve to make the same amount of money as the lead sound designer" because NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. We're saying the 22 year old handling the company's twitter account should be paid a living wage. At that point, we'd have to dig into the cost of living in Irvine and its surrounding areas, what the social media manager at Blizzard gets paid, and whether or not that's considered a "living wage". We don't have that, so we can't REALLY have that conversation here beyond me asserting "I think everyone at Blizzard should be paid a living wage, and I mean EVERYONE, facilities staff included" and you either agreeing or disagreeing with that.

I think Cody's subject did a disservice to the discussion even if I agree with him on the core topic.

I agree with him on the core topic as well. I just don't think there is enough information on either side of the subject to really make a debate. Like, I would play devils advocate but I can't!

For my latest post I reviewed the article in question again and it really doesn't do the topic justice and unfortunately some of the complaints people had are incendiary/salacious which makes it easy to have here a blustery thread of people arguing past each other.

I do want point out that it's unfair to respond to a pay disparity conversation by saying "The 22 year old handling the company’s twitter account does not deserve to make the same amount of money as the lead sound designer" because NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. We're saying the 22 year old handling the company's twitter account should be paid a living wage. At that point, we'd have to dig into the cost of living in Irvine and its surrounding areas, what the social media manager at Blizzard gets paid, and whether or not that's considered a "living wage". We don't have that, so we can't REALLY have that conversation here beyond me asserting "I think everyone at Blizzard should be paid a living wage, and I mean EVERYONE, facilities staff included" and you either agreeing or disagreeing with that.

I think Cody's subject did a disservice to the discussion even if I agree with him on the core topic.

I agree with him on the core topic as well. I just don't think there is enough information on either side of the subject to really make a debate. Like, I would play devils advocate but I can't!

I haven’t seen anything in this piece that proves to me that Jack is an asshole.

And here we have the problem.

You’re making assumptions. I didn’t say that “Jack isn’t an asshole”... I said I don’t see proof.

When I was 19 and living on my own for the first time, my daily budget for food was $5 (Canadian). For reference, a McDonald’s combo meal at that time cost $6.95 Canadian, or there about. Does that make my employer an asshole? Well, no. I was working for them before I moved out on my own. The pay was fair given the demands of the job and my experience. I knew what I was making, yet I chose to rent an apartment I could barely afford because at that time the freedom of living on my own was more important to me than financial comfort or stability. I made that choice.

I need way more info about these people and their living situations before I know whether or not to blame their employer. How much are they spending on their cell phones every month? How many subscription services are they signed up for? The reality is many people SUCK with money and budgeting. Maybe the people featured in this article do, and maybe they don’t, but I don’t have nearly enough info to know either way.

I had a really sarcastic response queued up for this post... I just wanna say that it wouldn't be much of an article if somebody was bad at budgeting. That's not how an anonymous list of salaries gets put together. Like "I spent $1000 on shoes this month and forgot to afford my lunches" doesn't jive with "let's analyze the pay disparities here"...

First of all, I just want to point out that “pay disparity” is not necessarily a problem. The 22 year old handling the company’s twitter account does not deserve to make the same amount of money as the lead sound designer, for example. There are obviously points where pay disparity can go too far and become damaging, but that’s one of those squishy things that is tough to pinpoint. I’ve worked with people who were great at their job and worked hard and deserved more than they made. I’ve also worked with people who were petty and jealous and always complained that they deserved more than they were making, even though they barely deserved what they were already getting. Just because someone says they deserve more money doesn’t mean they’re right. I’m not going to pass judgement either way if I’m not there to see it with my own eyes.

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that people who don’t make much money are not always good at managing money. When I was younger, every single payday I’d go straight to the bar with my coworkers, and by the end of the night we’d all blown 30% of our paycheques. Beyond anecdotal experience, the data on lottery winners is super depressing. Most are right back where they started a year after winning, and some are far worse off because they used their temporary wealth to develop a nasty cocain addiction.

Again, I’m not arguing against these employees, nor am I defending Blizzard. I’m merely pointing out that we don’t have enough info to see the whole situation.

Yeah I mean I think the article would have been better if they deep a proper analysis of the data, both contextualizing it in the context of the games industry and separating the signal from the noise.

I do want point out that it's unfair to respond to a pay disparity conversation by saying "The 22 year old handling the company’s twitter account does not deserve to make the same amount of money as the lead sound designer" because NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. We're saying the 22 year old handling the company's twitter account should be paid a living wage. At that point, we'd have to dig into the cost of living in Irvine and its surrounding areas, what the social media manager at Blizzard gets paid, and whether or not that's considered a "living wage". We don't have that, so we can't REALLY have that conversation here beyond me asserting "I think everyone at Blizzard should be paid a living wage, and I mean EVERYONE, facilities staff included" and you either agreeing or disagreeing with that.

I think Cody's subject did a disservice to the discussion even if I agree with him on the core topic.

#CodyWasRight - no - #CodyISRight

But also, #ClaudeISRight.

The games industry sucks. As a whole, AND at Blizzard. Demonizing one piece doesn't really address the whole thing... but(!) it could be a start towards helping a lot of people.

*slinks back to shadowy corner*

My point, from the very first post I made, was this:

If this is an indication of a problem in the gaming industry as a whole, I find it an interesting conversation. If it's just another example of why we should hate Blizzard, I don't really care.

You can try and spin that as me being nitpicky about the language, or me being uncaring towards workers, or me trying to deflect from a real issue... but it's really none of those things. It's Cody coming in here with a pretty-light-on-facts article, and attempting to draw some pretty wide-ranging conclusions from it, and me not being willing to be drawn into that kind of conversation. I don't particularly like Blizzard, I don't need another article telling me how much they suck as a company. I didn't learn anything that shocked me enough to get out of my chair and picket for Blizzard employees, that's for sure.

I think the question of whether the gaming industry, as a whole, is fair or unfair to its workers is an interesting question, and probably worth discussing here (if there's enough interest from others). I think the question of whether Blizzard sucks or not isn't.

And while it's absolutely fine to come in here and discuss whether Blizzard sucks or not... it's also absolutely fine for me to say "I'm not interested" and not participate. (I participated at first because I thought that there was a CHANCE that we were going to have the wider discussion. I left when it was clear we weren't.)

1.
#NotAllGameCompanies

I honestly don't know why this matters. Is it that you are not allowed to care because it's only at one game company? I'd think having a specific well-defined target would make something more actionable. Is it the opposite? Is the point that the problem is so widespread that it makes no sense to care about any specific company? Well, the journey of a thousand steps and all that, right? Blizzard is surely a significant chunk of the game industry. It seems like the point is just that this is not a scope of the topic that will be allowed. I don't know what could be said to make this a good conversation.

2.
If people are not being paid enough it is their own fault / I believe in companies more than workers / Look at my bootstraps / This Calvin guy has some good ideas

Yeah, I dunno. I could try to describe the enormous disparity in negotiating power, the crumbling of social institutions designed to create a fair playing field, the generational loss of employment as a aspect of a life, not the center of health and identity, the fusing of corporate and political interests… Or I could try to come up with analogous situations you have a less immediate bounce back to when you hear them — all of it victim blaming across a range of spheres, I suppose — but none of them seem any more likely calm things down and set the scene for open-minded conversation.

3.
I don't care [because X is not proven by this story] and you have done a really terrible job of addressing my goalposts, which I announced after your post.

The story will not change to provide new evidence or angles no matter how much we post here. Cody didn't write it. If you want to talk about related topics that seems great, but so far these type of posts only seem interested in talking about how bad it is that Cody or this article didn't talk about related topics.

--------------

The fact that I can summarize all of this with nothing but references to other dumpster fires of people talking past each other throughout history should hopefully make my point. This is like a thread on climate change where every response is only interested in arguing about what ISN'T in the article and every poster is either unconvinced there is a problem, or unconvinced they should care about the problem.

This has become contentious and lopsided as hell, and yet nobody is listening to what anyone else wants to be heard saying, so let's all just drop it and hope things work out in a way that allows people to find some happiness whether they work at blizzard or post here.

Do with this information what you will. That's all it is. Knowledge.

And I would have had far less of a reaction to your post if this is what the title was :D

Coming from this article I honestly don't know what is made up or fact

Yes, because Bloomberg is known for its tabloid journalism and fake news.

Weeelllllllllllllll…

You're right. Posting in this thread was a dumb idea. I just find the idea of asking others to flip out over this a little unsettling - if the people affected by this issue recognize it and are continuing to work at fixing it, does it cheapen the idea of flipping out under similar circumstances when the people affected are less empowered?

Do with this information what you will. That's all it is. Knowledge.

Seems to me like talking to journalists highlighting the issue IS trying to make it happen.

You're right. Posting in this thread was a dumb idea. I just find the idea of asking others to flip out over this a little unsettling - if the people affected by this issue recognize it and are continuing to work at fixing it, does it cheapen the idea of flipping out under similar circumstances when the people affected are less empowered?

I haven’t seen anything in this piece that proves to me that Jack is an asshole.

And here we have the problem.

You’re making assumptions. I didn’t say that “Jack isn’t an asshole”... I said I don’t see proof.

When I was 19 and living on my own for the first time, my daily budget for food was $5 (Canadian). For reference, a McDonald’s combo meal at that time cost $6.95 Canadian, or there about. Does that make my employer an asshole? Well, no. I was working for them before I moved out on my own. The pay was fair given the demands of the job and my experience. I knew what I was making, yet I chose to rent an apartment I could barely afford because at that time the freedom of living on my own was more important to me than financial comfort or stability. I made that choice.

I need way more info about these people and their living situations before I know whether or not to blame their employer. How much are they spending on their cell phones every month? How many subscription services are they signed up for? The reality is many people SUCK with money and budgeting. Maybe the people featured in this article do, and maybe they don’t, but I don’t have nearly enough info to know either way.

I had a really sarcastic response queued up for this post... I just wanna say that it wouldn't be much of an article if somebody was bad at budgeting. That's not how an anonymous list of salaries gets put together. Like "I spent $1000 on shoes this month and forgot to afford my lunches" doesn't jive with "let's analyze the pay disparities here"...

First of all, I just want to point out that “pay disparity” is not necessarily a problem. The 22 year old handling the company’s twitter account does not deserve to make the same amount of money as the lead sound designer, for example. There are obviously points where pay disparity can go too far and become damaging, but that’s one of those squishy things that is tough to pinpoint. I’ve worked with people who were great at their job and worked hard and deserved more than they made. I’ve also worked with people who were petty and jealous and always complained that they deserved more than they were making, even though they barely deserved what they were already getting. Just because someone says they deserve more money doesn’t mean they’re right. I’m not going to pass judgement either way if I’m not there to see it with my own eyes.

Also, it is perfectly reasonable to point out that people who don’t make much money are not always good at managing money. When I was younger, every single payday I’d go straight to the bar with my coworkers, and by the end of the night we’d all blown 30% of our paycheques. Beyond anecdotal experience, the data on lottery winners is super depressing. Most are right back where they started a year after winning, and some are far worse off because they used their temporary wealth to develop a nasty cocain addiction.

Again, I’m not arguing against these employees, nor am I defending Blizzard. I’m merely pointing out that we don’t have enough info to see the whole situation.

Coming from this article I honestly don't know what is made up or fact

Yes, because Bloomberg is known for its tabloid journalism and fake news.

If the article doesn’t provide the info necessary to reach the conclusions being presented, and Mac is questioning it while you choose to take it on faith, which one of you is thinking critically? (Hint: it isn’t you ;p)

Oh really, because I choose to believe an investigative reporter working for a major publication with a reputation to uphold, versus someone on the internet who conducted no investigation of their own?

Yeah, I'm the one not thinking critically.

Not making enough money to raise kids is a serious problem, and increasingly more so over time. But on the flip side, the majority of people throughout human history lived on so little money that we today can’t even comprehend it, yet they managed to raise families and survive through hardships far worse than we typically encounter in modern times.

Because people in the past had a hard existence, we in the future should too! Maybe we could… progress?!

I’m not defending companies for under-paying their employees, just pointing out that a lot of people these days love to say they “can’t afford” things that people have done with far less for hundreds of thousands of years. Growing up with the expectation that our lives should be at least as comfortable as our parents’ is a thoroughly modern luxury.

The idea of your life being comfortable is literally the entire point behind civilization in the first place. The idea is at least 18,000 years old, not a 'modern luxury'. It's been a driving force behind every generation: "My kids will have it better than I do."

Back to the point though, I think the sticking point here for some of us is that this piece and Cody are steamrolling over questions like “are these people’s wages comparable to similar positions at other companies across the industry?”. Because if their wages are roughly on par with industry standards, that means they’re predictable. Which means people can and should know what they’re getting into before taking these jobs.

Does it matter what other companies do?! If YOU don't pay your employees a living wage, YOU are in the wrong. That is a choice YOU can make.

Personally, I just find it useless to get all outraged by the idea that a mega corporation is acting greedy. Like, OF COURSE THEY ARE. That doesn’t mean it’s ok, but what do people think they’re going to do, rid the world of every vice that exists? These employees are adults who willingly took jobs. They got themselves into it. If they’re being unfairly treated, they can leave.

You have people saying they can't even make ends meet WHILE WORKING THERE. How can they afford to LEAVE?! You don't get unemployment if you quit. COBRA for healthcare is expensive (and you have to apply, and can even be denied!).

I sympathize with anyone and everyone facing these challenges (this lockdown cost me my job and home, so I know well enough that times can be tough) but there’s a whiny and entitled undertone to arguments like the one Cody is trying to make that I find simply unhelpful.

The people who are working full time but can't make ends meet would not find it unhelpful at all. I've stood on the picket line for people who wanted a decent wage and working conditions before, and every time they've been called entitled. And yet, every time they've gotten what they've struck for.

Every time my financial situation has improved, it’s because I stood in front of my boss and argued that I was worth more money, and my work performance compelled them to agree. There are times where I tried to make that argument, and my boss didn’t agree. So I left those jobs and went elsewhere. We’re all ultimately responsible for our own career choices. And when we end up in unfair situations, some of us complain, and others actually DO something about it.

The old "Just work harder" excuse.

Coming from this article I honestly don't know what is made up or fact

Yes, because Bloomberg is known for its tabloid journalism and fake news.

If the article doesn’t provide the info necessary to reach the conclusions being presented, and Mac is questioning it while you choose to take it on faith, which one of you is thinking critically? (Hint: it isn’t you ;p)