I think the Xbox system and the game itself make that sort of clear. If the party and fireteam are open and joinable, that means they are welcome to people joining them. If they’re not, the game allows players to close their fireteams and Xbox allows you to lock down a party.

I realize there are social anxieties for people in just randomly joining people, but I actively encourage folks to do it. Most of my best nights in Destiny have come from just joining that six or seven or eight person Xbox Live party and seeing what’s going on.

Yeah, my most fun nights have been when I've had the courage to drop in on a group. Still- I can't seem to get over the idea that I'm barging in whenever I do that. I dunno, but there seems to be a weird socialization protocol that I internalized and it keeps me from jumping into a party without invitation.

But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes.

This is just... not correct. What do loading spots have anything to do with size of a file? That's just a coordinate on the map. A gametype is probably a bit bigger. A class that holds all the information, probably a bit bigger, but without a proper map to play it on the game type is useless. Also, as it was mentioned no one likes it.

But to compare a Multiplayer map vs a planet is not based strictly on size. It is based on assets and the quality of those assets. Planets are going to have a lot of repetitve lower quality assets. Higher quality assets as well but only in areas that are mission important I bet. Multiplayer maps have a lot of detail crammed in to a smaller map compared to PvE maps.

So to just roughly compare things like that is just not right. You have no idea the quantity and size of those assets.

I have to disagree. So, what I mean by loading zones, is the planet and it’s surrounding areas. For instance, on a place like Titan, you have the public area, it’s enemies and environment, assets like ammo, items and displays, interactive items such as patrol beacons and rally flags, instant drop-in/dropout matchmaking, pre-loading other public areas, lost sectors, and all of the stories, adventures, strikes and quests, including any possible versions of those. A multiplayer map, however, only has the environment, ammunition, any relevant sky boxes, or map specific features. While the detail might be higher, there’s undoubtedly much less of it.

Yes, I don’t have a clue of the size of assets in a map, or the map as a whole. But I know for sure a multiplayer map alone isn’t gonna be gigabytes in size.

all I know and from what I can guess as a software engineer is that software and logic is much cheaper on a whole than graphics.

So all the logic surrounding a landing zone and the activity is indeed complex in the game, but code base wise it's just a bunch of code triggers. My guess for what they are trying to do with saving space is to get rid of a whole set of planet graphic assets because all of those planets/themes use the same graphic assets. But I digress. I think what matters is two things when it comes to graphics, the amount of assets and the quality of them. If a planet uses the same assets 20 low quality assets over and over again even if it's a massive zone, but a Multiplayer map uses 15 high quality assets but few times. It could be that the multiplayer map is twice the space taken on your hard drive.

So all I'm trying to say is, just because it looks big and complex, does not at all mean that it takes up more space on your hard drive. It's more likely, for sure, but it's also a very complex piece of software and it's easy to forget it.

I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

I'm not saying it's right on a gameplay perspective, but don't just throw out numbers and say that it's all smoke and mirrors based on size.

I honestly don’t know what else could be gained from a move like that. Size or not, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

We shall find out.

But yeah, I'm pretty much done with reasons to hop onto D2 on either my or Sammy's profile, besides helping others, so if you ever need a boost or teammate, I can hop on.

Hey what about D1? Still lookin for those acheements...

But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes.

This is just... not correct. What do loading spots have anything to do with size of a file? That's just a coordinate on the map. A gametype is probably a bit bigger. A class that holds all the information, probably a bit bigger, but without a proper map to play it on the game type is useless. Also, as it was mentioned no one likes it.

But to compare a Multiplayer map vs a planet is not based strictly on size. It is based on assets and the quality of those assets. Planets are going to have a lot of repetitve lower quality assets. Higher quality assets as well but only in areas that are mission important I bet. Multiplayer maps have a lot of detail crammed in to a smaller map compared to PvE maps.

So to just roughly compare things like that is just not right. You have no idea the quantity and size of those assets.

I have to disagree. So, what I mean by loading zones, is the planet and it’s surrounding areas. For instance, on a place like Titan, you have the public area, it’s enemies and environment, assets like ammo, items and displays, interactive items such as patrol beacons and rally flags, instant drop-in/dropout matchmaking, pre-loading other public areas, lost sectors, and all of the stories, adventures, strikes and quests, including any possible versions of those. A multiplayer map, however, only has the environment, ammunition, any relevant sky boxes, or map specific features. While the detail might be higher, there’s undoubtedly much less of it.

Yes, I don’t have a clue of the size of assets in a map, or the map as a whole. But I know for sure a multiplayer map alone isn’t gonna be gigabytes in size.

I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

I'm not saying it's right on a gameplay perspective, but don't just throw out numbers and say that it's all smoke and mirrors based on size.

I honestly don’t know what else could be gained from a move like that. Size or not, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

I’ll probably just do it near the end and have Moonlight Sword for NG+.

Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny.

It's fun when that happens. I have a medical appointment a few times a week and every now and then there's a guy there to take my temperature who recognizes my Destiny shirt. (I've usually got one on.) I've thought about inviting him to play but he seems to primarily be into Trials/Crucible guy.

I was once at a restaurant and there were people waiting outside for a table and I kid you not, there were three of them each wearing each class T-shirt. And I almost decided to wear my Titan shirt... I would have just gone out and high five the Titan.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

Maybe me? Maybe I'm the thing that has changed. Maybe game culture as it is today is what has changed. The Destiny model is not unique to Destiny, it's a development process that many a game maker use.

I hate constantly drawing comparisons to the Bungie Halos, but for me, those were the pinnacle of fun games. Especially when it came to PvP. Remember Action Sack? Grifball? Fist A** Extreme? Ok, maybe that last one was a fan made pleasure but know what? We had the ability to make gametypes like FAE. The strategy of working with your team to get the best weapons on the map. Playing Headhunter and seeing flaming skulls go flying all over. Intense games of CTF on Blood Gulch. Then what happened at the end of everything single game? Nothing. Nothing happened. Until that voice chimes in, "alright let's go again."

So what changed? I guess the times have changed, man. The times.

Yeah, I actually breezed through her. She was close enough to the Cleric Beast that she didn’t feel too difficult. I also killed the Witch of Hemwick the last time I played. She’s obviously not difficult, but it was a novel fight that I enjoyed. I haven’t gone the other direction yet, which I think is into the Forbidden Woods. I’m going to do that next to get into the Clinic to find the Cainhurst Summons, I think.

I poked around the Nightmare from the DLC, but the two Hunters right at the beginning destroyed me, so I’m putting that off for now. I really want the Moonlight Sword, though.

Nice! Vicar gave me some trouble the first couple times but nowhere near as bad as the poison from the beast. I enjoyed the Witch fight as well - the area was pretty neat and not overly complex.

Yes there are alot more hunters in the DLC than anywhere else in the game really. And they are far from push overs. It gets easier once you get leveled a bit but they are still tough.

I realize there are social anxieties for people in just randomly joining people, but I actively encourage folks to do it. Most of my best nights in Destiny have come from just joining that six or seven or eight person Xbox Live party and seeing what’s going on.

I poked around the Nightmare from the DLC, but the two Hunters right at the beginning destroyed me, so I’m putting that off for now. I really want the Moonlight Sword, though.

I don't understand the phrase "The focus of the game is no longer 'to have fun.' ". The GAME never had that focus. Players can have a focus to have fun. The game can have a focus to provide fun. I'm not just being pedantic here, it's always weird to have people come in and tell me that I'm not having fun with Destiny. I was tricked into believing a lie, gullible old me.

I don't think anybody is saying that.

I'm putting it in quotes for a reason. I guess the only part I didn't cite was "tricks" but that was for grammatical reasons.

If there was no fun to be had anywhere in Destiny, nobody would play it at all.

So, they just are not having the right kind of fun? I guess so if

This is what we are saying. I personally would argue the very things that made WoW what it was are in fact detrimental to fun on the whole.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

I can only speak for myself here… but I feel like the shortcomings used to be mere mistakes and missteps. That those things were actively trying to be fixed and avoided; it was simply that Bungie was working out how to do so. But nowadays I see shortcomings intentionally designed in and integrated into the game (the implication being that their inclusion serves a different purpose than "fun"). You can disagree with me about what a shortcoming is, but this is how I see it.

I'm not disagreeing with what a shortcoming is, but I also am not going to decide I didn't like the show because of a review of the show from the cheap seats, or I guess in your case, obstructed view. Anyway, that's all different than invalidating people's fun and wasn't really an answer to my question anyhow (and given you have not been playing it for so long I wasn't expecting you to answer the question).

I recognize I'm not in your position, but I strongly suspect you are self-excluding yourself from content if you're thinking the soft cap prevents you from trying to play stuff with us.

Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny. That’s sort of where my renewed disappointment comes from—I logged in last night only to be treated with a new list of chores that didn’t seem like any fun. Zavala had a new quest to prepare for the Arrival. Cool! Only I talked to Sloane and she wanted me to do some Patrols and kill 150 Hive or whatever. Like, seriously? Is this really what they have to offer? That or grinding out far too many objectives just like that for Solstice armor? It’s so disheartening, and the entire game is designed like that right now. It’s just a bummer.

See, this is the point where I feel like I can agree with you. There's way too many kill N _enemy_var parts of quests. It's not a goal that I enjoy, and it NEVER makes sense from a lore perspective. (At least with the masterwork/catalyst is's relevant and something I view as something to be don'e almost accidentally, or at least in parallel.) The "collect drops from this enemy type" kinda fix the story problem, but it's still just a patrol beacon dressed up in dad's quest suit.

The entire concept of "max level" is flexible and ill-defined with the artifacts, though.

Fair enough. I've never played a version of this game with the current artifact system.

I don't understand the phrase "The focus of the game is no longer 'to have fun.' ". The GAME never had that focus. Players can have a focus to have fun. The game can have a focus to provide fun. I'm not just being pedantic here, it's always weird to have people come in and tell me that I'm not having fun with Destiny. I was tricked into believing a lie, gullible old me.

I don't think anybody is saying that. If there was no fun to be had anywhere in Destiny, nobody would play it at all.

I can say I feel pretty strongly that they listen to the wrong people about what the game should be. I think a lot of decisions were made to appease streamers who have a different idea of what "fun" is and that it gets conflated with the needs of their business — needs the vast majority of people do not have. I think internally there are too many people who want to recapture the fun times they had playing World of Warcraft, both because I don't find that sort of game fun, and because I think a lot of these things can't be brought over piecemeal and retro-fitted into Destiny.

This is what we are saying. I personally would argue the very things that made WoW what it was are in fact detrimental to fun on the whole.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

I can only speak for myself here… but I feel like the shortcomings used to be mere mistakes and missteps. That those things were actively trying to be fixed and avoided; it was simply that Bungie was working out how to do so. But nowadays I see shortcomings intentionally designed in and integrated into the game (the implication being that their inclusion serves a different purpose than "fun"). You can disagree with me about what a shortcoming is, but this is how I see it.