Yeah I just think that your definition of intrinsic motivation differs from mine. Considering that there is little to no external motivation to play the game beyond to get better at it/beat it makes it inherently all about intrinsic motivation.

Perhaps that's enough intrinsic motivation for you personally. Plenty of games are insanely hard and require lots of play to get better. But for me, it also has to have a world worth inhabiting. If Dark Souls did not have the atmosphere and lore that it did, I don't think it would have been worth getting better at!

That jives.

Yeah I just think that your definition of intrinsic motivation differs from mine. Considering that there is little to no external motivation to play the game beyond to get better at it/beat it makes it inherently all about intrinsic motivation.

Perhaps that's enough intrinsic motivation for you personally. Plenty of games are insanely hard and require lots of play to get better. But for me, it also has to have a world worth inhabiting. If Dark Souls did not have the atmosphere and lore that it did, I don't think it would have been worth getting better at!

I just explained how there is in fact no intrinsic motivation. Mechanics and challenge are not in a vacuum; they never were.

The game itself is not in a vacuum. Your own motivations figure in too, man. Games don't give reasons for people to glitch-speedrun them, but people still do. It's still fun to them.

The world is not one I enjoy being in.

That's cool. You don't like it. I didn't either. There doesn't need to be a technical explanation to why you didn't like it, but it's ok to try and find one. What is weird here is that it is almost antithetical to everything you used to defend back in the day.

There is never any tension. I hope this explains the problem.

Weird. I didn't like it exactly because it made me too tense. Kind of like the first Ori game (which I didn't drop).

The game fetishizes mechanics to the point where is completely neglects to give you a compelling reason to return or improve.

Of all people... you routinely fetishize mechanics and challenge abhorring extrinsic motivation to the point that you abstain from playing the very game this forum is dedicated to; I'm just so absolutely confused to why that's a negative thing now.

I just explained how there is in fact no intrinsic motivation. Mechanics and challenge are not in a vacuum; they never were. The world is not one I enjoy being in. There is never any tension. I hope this explains the problem.

Yeah I just think that your definition of intrinsic motivation differs from mine. Considering that there is little to no external motivation to play the game beyond to get better at it/beat it makes it inherently all about intrinsic motivation. That it fails to inspire you to play for the sake of playing is just a preference on your part, and I'm good with that. You dislike the art, don't like being in the world, fine.

Saying "how there is in fact no intrinsic motivation" is just wrong without some softening clause in your language.

I just explained how there is in fact no intrinsic motivation. Mechanics and challenge are not in a vacuum; they never were.

The game itself is not in a vacuum. Your own motivations figure in too, man. Games don't give reasons for people to glitch-speedrun them, but people still do. It's still fun to them.

The world is not one I enjoy being in.

That's cool. You don't like it. I didn't either. There doesn't need to be a technical explanation to why you didn't like it, but it's ok to try and find one. What is weird here is that it is almost antithetical to everything you used to defend back in the day.

There is never any tension. I hope this explains the problem.

Weird. I didn't like it exactly because it made me too tense. Kind of like the first Ori game (which I didn't drop).

The game fetishizes mechanics to the point where is completely neglects to give you a compelling reason to return or improve.

Of all people... you routinely fetishize mechanics and challenge abhorring extrinsic motivation to the point that you abstain from playing the very game this forum is dedicated to; I'm just so absolutely confused to why that's a negative thing now.

I just explained how there is in fact no intrinsic motivation. Mechanics and challenge are not in a vacuum; they never were. The world is not one I enjoy being in. There is never any tension. I hope this explains the problem.

This game has been one of the most satisfying games to master specifically BECAUSE I felt like I was developing a set of skills. That you would say that is befuddling to the point that I think you're just taking the piss.

The game is over though. I've already climbed the mountain. The strawberries don't even confer you and tangible advantage in game. They aren't extra lives or powerups. They are just pointless trinkets to collect. I see no reason to go back at all.

The frequent checkpoints negate any tension. That's the fundamental push and pull of skill building in the first place… penalty for failure is a force pushing you to improve. Of course you're better at the game after you play it for a while. That's so obvious. But that getting better is not required nor leveraged to complete the main game, nor does fear of failure drive any tension. And tension means release when you succeed.

The core is locked and I need two more hearts. But I honestly can't even be bothered to go back and find more tapes to do. Even the tapes I've done… why would I go back and do them again?

The game fetishizes mechanics to the point where is completely neglects to give you a compelling reason to return or improve.

Of all people... you routinely fetishize mechanics and challenge abhorring extrinsic motivation to the point that you abstain from playing the very game this forum is dedicated to; I'm just so absolutely confused to why that's a negative thing now.

This game has been one of the most satisfying games to master specifically BECAUSE I felt like I was developing a set of skills. That you would say that is befuddling to the point that I think you're just taking the piss.

The game is over though. I've already climbed the mountain. The strawberries don't even confer you and tangible advantage in game. They aren't extra lives or powerups. They are just pointless trinkets to collect. I see no reason to go back at all.

The frequent checkpoints negate any tension. That's the fundamental push and pull of skill building in the first place… penalty for failure is a force pushing you to improve. Of course you're better at the game after you play it for a while. That's so obvious. But that getting better is not required nor leveraged to complete the main game, nor does fear of failure drive any tension. And tension means release when you succeed.

The core is locked and I need two more hearts. But I honestly can't even be bothered to go back and find more tapes to do. Even the tapes I've done… why would I go back and do them again?

The game fetishizes mechanics to the point where is completely neglects to give you a compelling reason to return or improve.

So the frequent checkpoints you were just complaining about as undermining skill mastery are actually a good thing?

No.

Let's put it this way: If Celeste were an arcade game nobody would play it because it would be the most insane quarter sucker ever. You need an appropriate challenge level when your game isn't meant to be played in single screen sized chunks. Because checkpoints are so frequent, the difficulty needs to ratchet WAY up or else the game would be breezed through. The go hand in hand. Frequent checkpoints alone would kill a game. Super High difficulty where you die in seconds would alone kill a game. Together they sort of work, but since you are only asked to perform for 10-15 seconds at a time, you never really have to develop anything resembling a wholistic set of skills to finish the game the first time.

That makes absolutely no sense. I have beaten the game and gone back to earlier levels to gather more strawberries and I ABSOLUTELY have developed a wholistic set of skills that made once nearly impossible screens a breeze.

This game has been one of the most satisfying games to master specifically BECAUSE I felt like I was developing a set of skills. That you would say that is befuddling to the point that I think you're just taking the piss.

The game escalates such that the things you learned on the previous screen carry forward to the next. Performing in short bursts doesn’t lessen the skill required to accomplish the task.

So the frequent checkpoints you were just complaining about as undermining skill mastery are actually a good thing?

No.

Let's put it this way: If Celeste were an arcade game nobody would play it because it would be the most insane quarter sucker ever. You need an appropriate challenge level when your game isn't meant to be played in single screen sized chunks. Because checkpoints are so frequent, the difficulty needs to ratchet WAY up or else the game would be breezed through. The go hand in hand. Frequent checkpoints alone would kill a game. Super High difficulty where you die in seconds would alone kill a game. Together they sort of work, but since you are only asked to perform for 10-15 seconds at a time, you never really have to develop anything resembling a wholistic set of skills to finish the game the first time.

You could always restart the level if you die?

Because the challenges are so precise, so intricate, playing the game that way would be insane.

The movements and timings can be so precise
that getting through could be mere luck.

ಠ_ಠ

What? That's not how probability works.

And yeah, you can play them again and again and eventually get good enough to do them all in one go with minimal deaths… but this is not required to beat the game, nor is even half that level of mastery.

You could always restart the level if you die? This game is championed as an example for game accessibility. They made a game that you can scale to your challenge level. That's a good thing.

You make it sound like getting through a checkpoint is a game of chance...

To some extent it can be. The movements and timings can be so precise, that getting through could be mere luck. I probably wouldn't be able to immediately do a bunch of the sections a second time.

And yeah, you can play them again and again and eventually get good enough to do them all in one go with minimal deaths… but this is not required to beat the game, nor is even half that level of mastery.

You don’t think that’s intentional? Maybe mirrors the message of the game? You don’t climb a mountain in one go, you do it a step at a time. That’s how you accomplish anything in life—focus on the thing in front of you, find joy in doing so, then move on to the next thing.

Except that's not how it works… you train in a wholistic way before you even attempt to climb a mountain. You don't go in there knowing nothing and learn step by step as you go… in part because failure can kill you. Really kill you.

To succeed in climbing a tough mountain you must already be a master when you step foot at the base.

And like, ok the game isn't REALLY about climbing a mountain, but rather overcoming anxiety/depression/whatever… but the way that's manifested in the mechanics isn't that satisfying to me. Maybe the mountain metaphor the game was using just wasn't a good one in the first place.

Wait what? You're saying that the game mechanics aren't punishing enough to live up to the stakes of metaphor they're using? Almost no game's challenge level matches the stakes of the metaphors they evoke -- even really hard games. That seems like a crazy arbitrary burden/metric to put on a game.

That's not what I'm saying.

In a more typical game, without checkpoints every 2 seconds, you have to develop a wholistic mastery in order to conquer all the challenges at once. You must be good enough at the game that you can play for long stretches surviving, learning what you have. Celeste is not like that. You can progress by merely trying again and again until you happen to get to the next checkpoint through sheer number of attempts, not necessarily having mastered it.

You don’t think that’s intentional? Maybe mirrors the message of the game? You don’t climb a mountain in one go, you do it a step at a time. That’s how you accomplish anything in life—focus on the thing in front of you, find joy in doing so, then move on to the next thing.

Except that's not how it works… you train in a wholistic way before you even attempt to climb a mountain. You don't go in there knowing nothing and learn step by step as you go… in part because failure can kill you. Really kill you.

To succeed in climbing a tough mountain you must already be a master when you step foot at the base.

And like, ok the game isn't REALLY about climbing a mountain, but rather overcoming anxiety/depression/whatever… but the way that's manifested in the mechanics isn't that satisfying to me. Maybe the mountain metaphor the game was using just wasn't a good one in the first place.

Wait what? You're saying that the game mechanics aren't punishing enough to live up to the stakes of metaphor they're using? Almost no game's challenge level matches the stakes of the metaphors they evoke -- even really hard games. That seems like a crazy arbitrary burden/metric to put on a game.

You don’t think that’s intentional? Maybe mirrors the message of the game? You don’t climb a mountain in one go, you do it a step at a time. That’s how you accomplish anything in life—focus on the thing in front of you, find joy in doing so, then move on to the next thing.

Except that's not how it works… you train in a wholistic way before you even attempt to climb a mountain. You don't go in there knowing nothing and learn step by step as you go… in part because failure can kill you. Really kill you.

To succeed in climbing a tough mountain you must already be a master when you step foot at the base.

And like, ok the game isn't REALLY about climbing a mountain, but rather overcoming anxiety/depression/whatever… but the way that's manifested in the mechanics isn't that satisfying to me. Maybe the mountain metaphor the game was using just wasn't a good one in the first place.