Oh hey, look you quoted me, as if I had forgotten. I didn't.

I did my best to interpret "?!?!... Put up or shut up. That ain't my game." If you wanted or continue to want something else from me I don't know what it is.

Man, you called me. This thread was done. Your feeling is mutual. Don't spit shit if you don't have anything to say.

You lost me there. Maybe I'm too far gone in the "meta" of puzzle games, but there were definitely quite a few puzzles where I felt constrained by 'the one solution'.

In Portal 2, that was indeed much more of a problem.

But the original portal was far more flexible. You could essentially put a portal almost anywhere, and many of the chambers could be creatively solved if you were creative.

Oh hey, look you quoted me, as if I had forgotten. I didn't.

I did my best to interpret "?!?!... Put up or shut up. That ain't my game." If you wanted or continue to want something else from me I don't know what it is.

BUT CONTROL IS AN ACTION GAME! Ok... well what do you want the message to be made out of? Morse code in explosions? This is the major problem in the proposal, as there is so much just saying what it should be that in posting there was no time made to figure out what it is you are actually proposing. It's a problem looking for its proof that it was ever there. I ask you; Should the language in Controls game play override its environment and it's theme? Would you rather have the Old House not have ANY documents at all? No reading, no audio, no video. Geeze, is it just me or does the just hurt to read?

There is the entire context, THE WHOLE REASON, for my what if. What you called in fallacy, was simply example. Taking an observation to its extreme point, that is in no way a keystone.

Now... if you've got anything to ACTUALLY say, generalized as it may be, THEN SAY IT. But miss me with that non-constructive nonsense. I don't play that.

I ask you; Should the language in Controls game play override its environment and it's theme? Would you rather have the Old House not have ANY documents at all? No reading, no audio, no video. Geeze, is it just me or does the just hurt to read?

Goodness, in this simulation, all there is to tell story as outlined, as described, are the objects of power and nothing else. The same thing, changed a little, for the entire game. No break up, no little story snacks as you move point to point, just go here then go there, boom boom boom. Ugh... well ya did it, you made the game to where even the psychic blowing shit up actually feels pointlessly droll now. What the fuck ya thinking? All you've done is create fatigue on a fanatic premise. Even action MOVIES need to stop now and again.

...I'mma stop there, this hurts, ugh...

Man.

A memo I missed because standing somewhere and holding square for a hundred different pieces of paper is lame. There's a bunch of better ways to do this not involving collectables.

Can you name a few that you think would work for Control?

First thing:

Decouple them from collectibles. Do not track them. Do not tie them to achievements. Do not display an alert in the interface when you have unread ones.

You know how there are cool side missions sometimes? There’s a bunch of lame ones but cool ones too. If instead of having the reward be a lame mod or upgrade that’s worse than what you have, what if the memo was the reward? Just more story? Have every side mission be crafted to create a meaningful experience that expands the story and world, with the memo a part of that. Because right now finding them is really really boring.

If the memo is the reward, and you can currently acquire and read the memo, then the memo bores you. Finding them isn't boring if you find the content of the memos appealing. This is a very bizarre problem you have.

A memo I missed because standing somewhere and holding square for a hundred different pieces of paper is lame. There's a bunch of better ways to do this not involving collectables.

Can you name a few that you think would work for Control?

First thing:

Decouple them from collectibles. Do not track them. Do not tie them to achievements. Do not display an alert in the interface when you have unread ones.

You know how there are cool side missions sometimes? There’s a bunch of lame ones but cool ones too. If instead of having the reward be a lame mod or upgrade that’s worse than what you have, what if the memo was the reward? Just more story? Have every side mission be crafted to create a meaningful experience that expands the story and world, with the memo a part of that. Because right now finding them is really really boring.

I couldn’t agree more.

That memo at the beginning sets the tone for the entire game, and does so more effectively than any cutscene or conversation I can imagine taking its place.

A memo I missed because standing somewhere and holding square for a hundred different pieces of paper is lame. There's a bunch of better ways to do this not involving collectables.

It's not just a nitpick. It goes to the heart of immersion and storytelling in games. The intersection of story and game should not feel like a stupid chore.

The concept of "immersion" in video games and what that even means is hotly debated. No game is fully immersive because that's rarely fun. Concessions will always be made to improve the experience and/or due to priorities in dev time and resources.

Perhaps it could've been done "better" in a way that would make everyone happier but it's not something that bothered anyone I've spoken to about this game other than you, so it's clearly not a universal sentiment.

A memo I missed because standing somewhere and holding square for a hundred different pieces of paper is lame. There's a bunch of better ways to do this not involving collectables.

Can you name a few that you think would work for Control?

It's not just a nitpick. It goes to the heart of immersion and storytelling in games. The intersection of story and game should not feel like a stupid chore.

Believe me, it doesn't when you're on board. You clearly weren't and that's totally fine, but a shame. Are you familiar with SCP Foundation? I believe anyone who enjoys some SCP will absolutely adore the memos in Control and how they intertwine with the game itself.

I couldn’t agree more.

That memo at the beginning sets the tone for the entire game, and does so more effectively than any cutscene or conversation I can imagine taking its place.

A memo I missed because standing somewhere and holding square for a hundred different pieces of paper is lame. There's a bunch of better ways to do this not involving collectables.

It's not just a nitpick. It goes to the heart of immersion and storytelling in games. The intersection of story and game should not feel like a stupid chore.

It's why solving a puzzle in the original Portal made you feel like you made a solution, versus solving a puzzle in an adventure game where you felt like you found the solution.

This is entirely subjective as well. All of the test chambers nearly always feel like you found a solution by nature of being "designed" in the context of the narrative. When the game goes off the rails it has the opportunity to feel more "made" vs "found" but even that was rare; I have the knowledge that these games are designed with intent, so my brain is looking for the path that I know exists, and it is hard to separate myself from that in the context of a puzzle game. Puzzles are made to be solved, therefore solutions are already made to be found.

Control almost had this. When you interact with the puzzle locks, the camera moves in for you to manipulate the cube. That system could have had Jessie pick up a memo, and zoom in on it as you look at the actual text on the paper.

It feels like this implementation detail bugged you, and you blew it up into a grand thesis about breaking immersion in games, and it's taken a dozen posts for you to pull it back down to what is ultimately a minor complaint.

I haven't played Control, but I loved this thread, and it's shifted my mindset about playing the game from one extreme to the other--I can't wait now. It seems like it has a lot of stuff I like--well-executed environmental storytelling, for one. Your example of the movie poster in TLoU is great, but so are the notes from Frank in Outskirts, or the notes from Ish in the Suburbs. And those were delivered in a manner that sounds very similar to how they're delivered in Control.

There certainly can be too much of this stuff, and it can be done badly. I think 343 completely botched terminals, for example. Found objects should be objects that would actually be found, not opportunities to deliver fan service movies automagiccally produced by an invisible director. I think that their decision was motivated by a mindset you articulate:

...Who wants to chase down this shit when you could tell the story with sound and picture?

Call it the Dan Ayoub fallacy (Sorry, Dan). I'm with Effortlessfury. Reading adds flavor to the game, because it tickles a different part of brain, for one thing. The main questions for me are: could this be found here, and does it add to my understanding and experience of the game world? If the answers are yes, my immersion is deepened, not broken.

I'll revisit your opinion after I've played it. There may be too much lore, and the story might not grab me, but from what I can tell, how the lore is delivered will not be a problem for me.

Kerm

...
One of my very favorite documents is the very first one you find in the game (spoilers). Walking into an empty office building, and finding this note that is so deeply bureaucratic, but simultaneously so deeply weird, immediately making you wonder what you have gotten yourself into. I genuinely can't think of a way to deliver that feel in a better way. An audio announcement, or even a sign on the wall wouldn't have been as delightfully unsettling for me. ...

Image link isn't reliable without a slight edit (and only admin can edit), so for those of you on mobile...

That memo at the beginning sets the tone for the entire game, and does so more effectively than any cutscene or conversation I can imagine taking its place.

I love how the fixed documents you find in Control weave into the world so thoroughly. You find an old log of a strange mannequin found in 1967 berlin, and later run into it. You read about a spooky baby carriage, and later see it through safety glass and are relieved that it is on the other side of the glass. None of it is required to succeed, but it provides a beautiful flavor to everything you experience.

One of my very favorite documents is the very first one you find in the game (spoilers). Walking into an empty office building, and finding this note that is so deeply bureaucratic, but simultaneously so deeply weird, immediately making you wonder what you have gotten yourself into. I genuinely can't think of a way to deliver that feel in a better way. An audio announcement, or even a sign on the wall wouldn't have been as delightfully unsettling for me.

The lack of a camera pan to the documents didn't bother me any more than having a HUD did. You walk up to a letter, pick it up, and can tap a button to see the document. Overall, I loved this game, the universe it built, and the characters that inhabited it. I totally believe it isn't for everyone, but it is definitely one of my faves.

Control almost had this. When you interact with the puzzle locks, the camera moves in for you to manipulate the cube. That system could have had Jessie pick up a memo, and zoom in on it as you look at the actual text on the paper.

I get it now. I agree with your point, but not your emotional conclusion. It feels inconsequential to me that we get an overlay as opposed to a zoom in and I'm sure it would take massive dev resources to get it just right, compared to the benefits, as I see it. I think I unconsciously abstract it away as the same thing.

Yeah, I can see your (I'm speaking to Cody throughout) point as to how that'd be better for "immersion," but it must also be noted that games are complex pieces of software on tight deadlines and budgets. Priorities mean concessions have to be made.

Hell, every game that has an inventory window has already failed your criteria. Here's a hyperbolic example to illustrate my point: is there any game out there that has you pull open your sack, riffle through it to find every item you want, pull it out, toss it, equip it, etc.? That'd be neat, but it'd also be tedious.

Elements of games are streamlined and abstracted not just for the developers' sake but for the player's sake. Most players do not care whatsoever that this information isn't presented in the physical play space. Implementing it would've been extra work for very little return. There are plenty of aspects of games that could theoretically be enhanced by implementing details like this, but they're not always practical to create or to even utilize.

The verb here is "the seeking and collection of information," not, "the real-time handling and observation of information." The latter is a layer of presentational polish on top of the former, a practical verb.

I feel like your observation here is the nitpick of nitpicks and, as justification for:

There is lore… tons of it I'm sure. But in the most boring format. Collectables. Audio logs. I just can't. Who wants to chase down this shit when you could tell the story with sound and picture?

I'm sorry, it feels a bit contrived.

It's why solving a puzzle in the original Portal made you feel like you made a solution, versus solving a puzzle in an adventure game where you felt like you found the solution.

You lost me there. Maybe I'm too far gone in the "meta" of puzzle games, but there were definitely quite a few puzzles where I felt constrained by 'the one solution'.

Control almost had this. When you interact with the puzzle locks, the camera moves in for you to manipulate the cube. That system could have had Jessie pick up a memo, and zoom in on it as you look at the actual text on the paper.

I get it now. I agree with your point, but not your emotional conclusion. It feels inconsequential to me that we get an overlay as opposed to a zoom in and I'm sure it would take massive dev resources to get it just right, compared to the benefits, as I see it. I think I unconsciously abstract it away as the same thing.

However, there's nothing inherently wrong with introducing new "verbs" that are orthogonal to others within the same game.

There is. If verbs exist here but not there, then the world does not feel whole.

It's why solving a puzzle in the original Portal made you feel like you made a solution, versus solving a puzzle in an adventure game where you felt like you found the solution. This principle is why old school point and click adventure games are dead by the way. Other genres simply got enough verbs.

Gone Home's a great example. The game is about picking up and examining objects. So, if you were to say, pick up a letter with text on it, and read the text, that's totally consistent with the game overall.

Control almost had this. When you interact with the puzzle locks, the camera moves in for you to manipulate the cube. That system could have had Jessie pick up a memo, and zoom in on it as you look at the actual text on the paper.