DBO Forums - The importance of asking good questions https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/ Bungie.Org talks Destiny en The importance of asking good questions (reply)

In fact, first time through I did Romeo's mission before the ONI one and was a bit confused about the timeline once I got around to playing the ONI mission.


I'll have to try this… whenever I play it again ahah. Thanks for the info.


Zack is mostly right, but you do have to do "Tayari Plaza" first, then it opens up. You're given an objective marker to head south for the "Uplift Reserve" mission, but there's nothing to stop you heading to the other missions.

Once you've completed all of the above ground missions, the world closes up again and you're forced to proceed to "Data Hive".

ODST is a little masterpiece. (My usual disclaimer: I don't think I'm halfway through the Halo Infinite campaign.) The open world problems in Infinite were solved by Bungie in ODST in part because they had more limits (as Mankitten has said, limits = creativity), and I suspect they asked better questions. They couldn't create the massive open world of Infinite, but they could create a big level that resembled a city environment, and then they asked several important questions about that: why is the player there? What is there for player to do? How can we do something new? How do we keep it interesting?

They did something new by making the player an ODST instead of the Master Chief, with different abilities that led to different gameplay. They made it interesting by giving the Rookie clues to find, which told not one but two stories about what had happened in this environment. The physical clues he found were evocative, but not compelling on their on. (So far that’s how I feel about the collectibles in Infinite, but that could be because I’ve played it over months). Sadie’s story was compelling on its on, but even with that, the Rookie’s night alone in Mombassa would've been tedious all at once. Bungie solved this by including playable flashbacks. We didn't have time to get bored. It's quite brilliant how the game fits together.

Bungie also asked another important question that might offer a clue regarding where Halo Infinite falls short: what does this franchise need? It's obvious the franchise needed Halo 3 to finish the fight. Another question along those lines: what have we promised but not delivered? On some level I think ODST tries to finally deliver the Earth combat from the infamous Halo 2 E3 demo. Neither Halo 2 or Halo 3 really scratched that itch.

All this is to say, I think 343 put a lot of thought into Halo Infinite--so far it's easily my favorite game of theirs. Some questions like "what does the franchise need?" are hard to answer at this late date. I think they're trying something in Infinite very similar to what was done in ODST, but my hunch so far is that a little too much attention was paid to answering "what's technically possible?" versus "how does this all fit together in a compelling way?” Game development is hard.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178675 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178675 Sun, 22 May 2022 19:48:17 +0000 DestinyKermit
Nope (reply)

In fact, first time through I did Romeo's mission before the ONI one and was a bit confused about the timeline once I got around to playing the ONI mission.


I'll have to try this… whenever I play it again ahah. Thanks for the info.

Zack is mostly right, but you do have to do "Tayari Plaza" first, then it opens up. You're given an objective marker to head south for the "Uplift Reserve" mission, but there's nothing to stop you heading to the other missions.

Once you've completed all of the above ground missions, the world closes up again and you're forced to proceed to "Data Hive".

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178674 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178674 Sun, 22 May 2022 11:20:59 +0000 DestinyJoe Duplessie (SNIPE 316)
Nope (reply)

In fact, first time through I did Romeo's mission before the ONI one and was a bit confused about the timeline once I got around to playing the ONI mission.

I'll have to try this… whenever I play it again ahah. Thanks for the info.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178606 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178606 Sun, 15 May 2022 23:40:39 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
Nope (reply) In fact, first time through I did Romeo's mission before the ONI one and was a bit confused about the timeline once I got around to playing the ONI mission.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178604 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178604 Sun, 15 May 2022 22:36:57 +0000 DestinyZackDark
You can never go back. (reply) If I remember correctly though, when you start a new campaign, doesn't it restrict you to a certain order for the found objects? I remember trying to do them in a different order but that only working on a completed file.

If that's correct, then doesn't it defeat the purpose of the open world? If it's essentially linear anyway, would it not have been better to design it as such?

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178601 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178601 Sun, 15 May 2022 21:26:08 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply) There are different kinds of interesting.

ODST had dialog/action/plot events segments, and it also had open world like segments. The open world was not as exciting, but I found it just as interesting. It communicated through some things that the action segments use like soundtrack and signage, but it let you absorb both of those more specifically and therefore with greater impact. The open world segments also are interesting in a different way, with the time change revealing new context for understanding what you see given the action segments.

(plus there was Stewart and Lee's story terminals)

I honestly suspect that most open world games make their scale too large, but maybe that's because I usually lose interest in Open world games about 60% of the way through.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178599 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178599 Sun, 15 May 2022 18:57:41 +0000 DestinyVortech
Halo Wars 3 baybeeeee (reply) https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178566 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178566 Fri, 13 May 2022 02:08:55 +0000 DestinyJoe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) You can never go back. (reply)

BTW, to partially answer your question (I'm not 100% on the exact details), but when Atriox found Cortana on the Halo ring, The Weapon had already been deployed and had locked Cortana down (at least for the most part). That's why The Weapon has been on the Halo for the past six months.

There’s the bummer for me. That seems like a more interesting story and game to me. They skipped the good part and gave us what feels like a diversion that came out of nowhere.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178564 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178564 Thu, 12 May 2022 18:47:07 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
You can never go back. (reply)

The genre requires the expansion of the game into the mundane. The way I see it, there are two choices you have when making an open world game. Either make the mere traversal of those paths in between fun to navigate, thus making the mundane interesting again (Death Stranding, BotW), or just… don't do open world.

Interestingly enough, I find Infinite and BotW's world traversal to be about the same level of appealing: I kinda like them and I kinda don't. Death Stranding is about traversal, so it inherently solves the problem.

I think the Open World could be made into something more appealing, how much more will depend on the person experiencing it. The open world needs additional meaningful activities, things that can be repeated in interesting ways. If you wanted to throw in a little live service, occasionally add some unique objectives/missions to the world from time to time. Make it feel a little more alive and make the things you do there feel like they matter.

Doesn't fix everything, but I do like the idea of a contiguous Halo. As fun as Halo levels are, the level of linearity really makes no sense. lol

The off-map missions can be better and I think that might be somewhat down to the delay/crunch stuff. Reportedly 2/3rds of the game got cut. If true, it might feel a lot more substantial. Basically, they've bought time (for me, anyway) to execute on it properly.

A bit of irony in the discussion around it still being same old "Halo" when this is the first time that 343i has really pulled that off.

BTW, to partially answer your question (I'm not 100% on the exact details), but when Atriox found Cortana on the Halo ring, The Weapon had already been deployed and had locked Cortana down (at least for the most part). That's why The Weapon has been on the Halo for the past six months.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178563 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178563 Thu, 12 May 2022 17:34:33 +0000 DestinyEffortlessFury
So I finally played it (reply)

My favorite thing was loading up the transport warthog after giving 5 marines rocket launchers.


Try Arcane Sentinel Beams. I'm expecting your retraction of this entire post by morning.

;p

That's some majesty I can be blinded by.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178503 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178503 Sun, 08 May 2022 19:26:11 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply)

Perhaps what I say is a given. This is what you get when you play "phone tag" with any discernible gap in time. But in reading Cody's post, I find myself lamenting this. I wonder if, even if business wise such could never of been, that it would have been better if 343 acted as fateful steward as they have with Halo: The Master Chief Collection. A steward, instead of trying to recreate a king they never could really understand. Because... of the skill that made the original, and all the right mistakes that in all odds can not be reproduced.

343 needed to recreate the king in the same way Mario 64 recreated Mario. Halo was itself a massive industry defining disruption. In some ways, the only way to capture the feeling is to do that again, which means radically rethinking what Halo can be today.

Sonic Mania sits at around 90% on Metacritic, and while that's not necessarily the barometer for quality, it indicates enough reviewers have essentially labeled the game at just below Masterpiece level. I was a huge 2D Sonic fan. And yet, while playing it I felt nothing. Maybe not nothing, maybe ennui? This game was objectively better than the classics it was born from. More colors. More sprites. More effects. Bigger levels. More levels.

But that's not really enough. It's just more. But it's more of the same. It's the same fundamental experience I had in the 90s. I finished it once never getting the chaos emeralds, and haven't touched it since. Nothing about it inspired me because I've been there before.

Halo Infinite fared better, but the end result was pretty similar. And it sucks right? The folks behind each of those games put in tons of love and effort.

They say you're old when your memories outnumber your dreams. Halo Infinite definitely had some dreams. But it had oh so many more memories…

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178496 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178496 Fri, 06 May 2022 01:26:37 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
PS The Music (reply) Literally the only piece of music I remember at all is when the original Halo theme played. I don't remember one note from the game or the cutscenes otherwise. It's so subdued and relegated to providing just a backdrop. Not at all a character in and of itself.

I don't necessarily want the new composers to try to imitate Marty - they should make it their own. But… it was just so bare without much personality.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178493 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178493 Thu, 05 May 2022 18:36:40 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply)


I’d honestly be surprised if I ever play Infinite’s campaign again, and that’s the first time I can say that about a Halo campaign.


This was biggest let down about the game. I completed the campaign, did all the side quests / world activities in just over a week. Now there is literally nothing left for me to do.
I don't want to start a new campaign to collect the stuff I missed in missions.
I don't want to start a new character that has no power ups.

I just want to jump into a mission and play it. Part of the fun of the Halo campaigns (for me at least) is playing the linear mission, in a huge environment and seeing what all I can do. Limits = Creativity. When you're fenced in, you find ways to get out and have fun. When you're in the open field...you just...wander around.

Halo was never a "do whatever you want" kind of game. You were given a mission and tasked with completing it. So go figure out how to do it the best! For me, this whole concept was thrown away for Infinite.

I get that sense too from many modern games besides Halo Infinite. Think about how most other art forms condense life to the interesting parts.

So when you think about it, the 'open world' necessarily implies a dilution of the interesting. If every inch of Halo Infinite were as designed and as dense as the levels in Halo CE, then it would not just be a really really really long game? The open world in a sense requires much of it to be boring and there for mere traversal, or else it'd just be a giant traditionally designed level.

Older open world games were small enough not only to develop, but for players to have a full sense of it as well. Zelda's overworld was 16 screens by 8 screens. 128 screens which could not only be individually designed with care packing an experience into each one, but a player could probably deal with holding all that in their head while navigating, or at least make a map. The sheer size of the open world in games now precludes both of those things.

This is what modern open world IS. Loosely designed challenges connected by a world with not much in between. Look at the sheer number of side jobs, collectables, etc are crammed into all these games. Extrinsic rewards because the world doesn't provide as much intrinsic fun.

The genre requires the expansion of the game into the mundane. The way I see it, there are two choices you have when making an open world game. Either make the mere traversal of those paths in between fun to navigate, thus making the mundane interesting again (Death Stranding, BotW), or just… don't do open world.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178492 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178492 Thu, 05 May 2022 17:28:19 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply)


I’d honestly be surprised if I ever play Infinite’s campaign again, and that’s the first time I can say that about a Halo campaign.

This was biggest let down about the game. I completed the campaign, did all the side quests / world activities in just over a week. Now there is literally nothing left for me to do.
I don't want to start a new campaign to collect the stuff I missed in missions.
I don't want to start a new character that has no power ups.

I just want to jump into a mission and play it. Part of the fun of the Halo campaigns (for me at least) is playing the linear mission, in a huge environment and seeing what all I can do. Limits = Creativity. When you're fenced in, you find ways to get out and have fun. When you're in the open field...you just...wander around.

Halo was never a "do whatever you want" kind of game. You were given a mission and tasked with completing it. So go figure out how to do it the best! For me, this whole concept was thrown away for Infinite.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178491 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178491 Thu, 05 May 2022 14:21:21 +0000 DestinyManKitten
You can never go back. (reply)

The open world just sucks. It’s straight up not fun to be in.


It's fun at first. But you are right in that when you discover everything is essentially the same as everything else and there are no 'set pieces', that's when I stopped doing things in it and instead progressed the story missions never looking back.


Except those suck, too, because they’re all set in the exact same Forerunner hallway.

This is also true, but you can't just choose not to do them and still finish the game. The new patch even 'fixed' most of the things speedrunners did to skip story missions!

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178489 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178489 Thu, 05 May 2022 04:21:25 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply)

The open world just sucks. It’s straight up not fun to be in.


It's fun at first. But you are right in that when you discover everything is essentially the same as everything else and there are no 'set pieces', that's when I stopped doing things in it and instead progressed the story missions never looking back.

Except those suck, too, because they’re all set in the exact same Forerunner hallway.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178488 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178488 Thu, 05 May 2022 04:19:51 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
You can never go back. (reply)

The open world just sucks. It’s straight up not fun to be in.

It's fun at first. But you are right in that when you discover everything is essentially the same as everything else and there are no 'set pieces', that's when I stopped doing things in it and instead progressed the story missions never looking back.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178487 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178487 Thu, 05 May 2022 04:09:05 +0000 DestinyCody Miller
You can never go back. (reply) Normally, I would disagree. Nostalgia makes fools of us all, and new takes on old ideas can be fantastic. Halo might be the exception, though. I just played through Halo 2 and Halo 3 within the past two weeks (along with a few hours of multiplayer). Halo 3 is actually a perfect video game. I genuinely do not think it could have actually been any better than it was.

I like 343’s Halo games for the most part. I think Infinite is the worst of them, though, in general. After trying to replay some of it, I like it less than I did initially. I think the game feel is fantastic, maybe the best Halo has ever been. Nothing else in the game pulls it’s weight though. The open world just sucks. It’s straight up not fun to be in. After playing the old Halo games, it really highlights how Infinite is lacking, and I think the open world is directly responsible. Where are the set pieces? Where are the Scarab fights? Where’s the Mantis section? The Warthog run? The plummeting space station escape? There is nothing in Infinite that even comes close. Having ten levels that take us through different areas is just a better way to make a Halo game.

And, while I don’t hate the story, I also don’t particularly like it. There’s no accounting for taste, of course, but it’s just not that interesting. I really liked seeing other Spartans in Halo 5, and getting the interaction between team members while on mission. Where is Blue Team during all this? What’s up with Halsey? That stuff was way more interesting than dealing with some Brute’s personal vendetta against the Chief (only for him to be replaced by a completely different Brute after the opening cutscene—seriously, what the fuck?) And then for it to end with some more Forerunner baggage locked up on a Halo ring . . . just, really?

I’d honestly be surprised if I ever play Infinite’s campaign again, and that’s the first time I can say that about a Halo campaign.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178486 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178486 Thu, 05 May 2022 03:41:22 +0000 DestinycheapLEY
You can never go back. (reply) In reading this, I found some broader reflection that I'd like to share. But first, fantastic write up Cody. A, in-parts, melancholy read.

In a broader media sense, I'm finding more and more that all these sequels and nostalgia baits and all round "Member Berries" safe space ventures have... eroded something. Like a copy of a copy. Where the original, be it with skill or all the right mistakes, becomes part of the social lexicon... Sherlock Holmes, Star Wars, Mario, The Beetles... the eventual reboots/sequels (should there be any) take the name and unevenly little else. Where it can seem that there is little care of why something was successful, just that it is, that it was, and so everything gets "nearest neighbor compressed" into close enough.

Perhaps what I say is a given. This is what you get when you play "phone tag" with any discernible gap in time. But in reading Cody's post, I find myself lamenting this. I wonder if, even if business wise such could never of been, that it would have been better if 343 acted as fateful steward as they have with Halo: The Master Chief Collection. A steward, instead of trying to recreate a king they never could really understand. Because... of the skill that made the original, and all the right mistakes that in all odds can not be reproduced.

But for the size and detail of this world, it all just blended together.

...

So overall, I’m kind of sad. I’m kind of sad I couldn’t be more excited about the team’s work on this. I’m kind of sad it all just felt familiar and unimpactful to me. And most of all, I’m sad there was no co-op.

You can never go back. But, man, I'm sure glad I was able to be there when the colors were at their brightest.

...¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178484 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178484 Thu, 05 May 2022 01:56:29 +0000 DestinyINSANEdrive
So I finally played it (reply)

My favorite thing was loading up the transport warthog after giving 5 marines rocket launchers.

Try Arcane Sentinel Beams. I'm expecting your retraction of this entire post by morning.

;p

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https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178482 https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=178482 Wed, 04 May 2022 23:05:10 +0000 DestinyZackDark