One could argue (and I'm done doing that, here) that this has already been achieved; masterfully, succinctly, and in three little words:

Shared. World. Shooter.

So masterfully that we're still debating the term in this very thread.

Debating just to debate, perhaps?

What I've heard though is that Borderlands is more RPG-leveling than it is shooter.

I'd say yes. In that you don't necessarily need good aim to play, depending (greatly) on how you set your character up.

And more co-op than it is 'shared-world.' Is there even a PvP part?

Not anything meaningful. You can duel other players within the co-op game, but it's just a quick fight and is over as soon as someone dies. No matches, no objectives, no scores or tracking. So, not PVP multiplayer as most people would probably think of it.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

Why don't you guys chill and just let ME post those kinds of threads? I have this down by now, and I can take the criticism.

:-p

if can explain a lot about how disagreements form when talking online...!

Compounding the issue online is the high-latency nature of conversations. Everything has to be done in large packets of information.

When a bunch of sticking points crop up simultaneously in face-to-face chat, especially if you also have materials like pencil and paper on hand for support, the whack-a-mole is easy.

When a bunch of sticking points crop up simultaneously in forum posts, you have to answer tons of them at once in a well-structured textwall, and you can't address questions people have as they're reading.

How do people know if you've finished a sentence?

"Sentence"?

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I'm surprised. By now I assumed everyone who had used the internet for more than 4 or 5 years understood (and had read about one of the numerous studies about) how tone is consistently misread in the written word, particularly online. The best thing you can do is use explicit tone through exclamation marks (to show enthusiasm!) and judicious use of emphasis. All caps has meant shouting since the very first time I posted on Usenet, in 1997 (I remember a classmate at university being chided for it).

There's a pretty large difference between ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME and all caps in ONE word. You're the first person I've ever spoken to that seems to think those are equivalent. (And no, that's not an exaggeration.)

So, I guess what I mean to say is that when you only choose to respond to me to disagree, vehemently, usually by repeatedly emphasising the same word, it comes across as pointedly negative if not outright hostile. That's the persona you have painted for me. I'm afraid you have to take some responsibility for that, and just claiming that it's because you're old fashioned doesn't cut it.

::shrug:: Not sure what I can say then, except I'm sorry - that's not how it was meant; it's not how it was ever meant. I have definitely been negative in response to you at times, because I feel like your tone is often pretty far along on the 'my opinion is righter than others' spectrum, and that grates on me - but certainly not all the time, and I can only remember once when I was actually feeling 'hostile' about it. I'll do my best to hold off if all I'm going to post in response to you is negative.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

I think you might be misinterpreting the underlying reason for some of these responses. There's nothing wrong with healthy debate - but there's also nothing horribly useful with baseless criticism. I think most of the 'why did you post this' stuff shows up when someone comes in and says "I think Destiny is going to do X, and X sucks." That's not a debate point - that's just negativity for the sake of negativity. In almost every case I can think of (here), there's been no evidence that X is actually going to happen - so berating Bungie for doing it is like my wife berating me if she has a dream about me cheating on her. And the 'why did you post this' response doesn't (usually) come when someone says "hey, I hope this doesn't happen because that would be bad" - it comes when someone says "I think this is going to happen, and it will be bad."

We don't know enough about this game right now to warrant being negative about stuff like mechanics. I guess that's my point. It's not our game - it's Bungie's. We get to decide if we want to play it; we get to decide if it's worth our money. We do not get to decide how it's made. I think, and I'm speaking personally now, the thing that gets my back up the fastest is the sense of entitlement some fans seem to have - "we built you, as a company, we bought your games for X years, you HAVE to listen to us." They don't, really. They owe us nothing; they're building a title we haven't paid a penny for, yet. (Well, I suppose you could argue you've helped support it if you've bought a t-shirt or something... but Destiny is a new title, and nothing you've paid for in the past, gamewise, entitles you to anything at all out of Bungie. They could fire all their employees tomorrow, close their doors, and the only people they'd be beholden to would be Activision.)

bungie.org is a Bungie fansite. Always has been. Was started with the intention of celebrating the work of a studio its founders really appreciated. Over time, it's grown, and some of the people who frequent here aren't really fans of Bungie any more (or maybe never were) - but for the most part, we're here because we LIKE them. I certainly don't try to stifle debate (I get far more personal emails asking why X or Y wasn't banned than I do asking why I shut down the conversation about Z) - but I do sometimes feel like the people complaining the loudest about how restrictive these sites can be are the people who come in demanding their opinion be acknowledged (rather than presenting it in a way that encourages others to discuss it).

In the particular case of this discussion: I'm not really clear what you expect to discuss. You opened with "Bungie is being too secretive about Destiny's mechanics" - where are we supposed to go with that? You feel that way - some of us feel that there will be plenty of opportunity to discover what we feel we need to know before we put money down for the final product. Bungie's made it very, very clear that they understand this viewpoint exists, but that they're not going to change their marketing scheme because of it - so what's left to discuss?

I think it's fair to say we all share a love of Bungie's work, their mindset and their approach. That much is probably never going to change. But the world of games development doesn't stand still, and what was brilliance at one stage will ultimately be considered a baseline later on. Bungie staff know full well they need to continually raise the bar, but I feel like this isn't as widely understood amongst fans here. Appreciating that the future path of games will mean trying out new and different things is something all fans will need to recognise, or else forever be bitter about the 'good old days'. So rather than dismiss, how about we encourage these different viewpoints: they enrich each and every one of us.

I totally agree it'll be an interesting conversation - when we know enough to HAVE it.

You can already see this with Bungie being reluctant to call it an MMO, to compare it games like the aforementioned Borderlands. Because while it shares certain elements, takes inspiration from them, it's also changed in the established Bungie style into something that doesn't easily fit into established boxes and stereotypes.

How do you know that? What have you seen? Because what we have seen can be described as "Bungie Borderlands" as one IGN article put it.

I haven't played Borderlands so... *shrugs*

What I've heard though is that Borderlands is more RPG-leveling than it is shooter. And more co-op than it is 'shared-world.' Is there even a PvP part?

Still though, even qualifying it as 'Bungie X' does establish that they have a distinct style. No?

Blizzard are talking to their current, ongoing, paying customers

When we're talking about a fan site like DBO, and numerous very likely already pre-ordered customers who are thus eligible for the beta... how is it that much different?

How much did your pre-order cost you? When was the last time you paid Bungie for game-related content or services? Even if you bought Destiny at launch and did not like it, how much of that money would be unrecoverable?

At least where I live, Blizzard's customers pay at least the equivalent of a brand new game, a map pack and Xbox Live Gold every year just to play World of Warcraft - nevermind the expansions. They need to keep those customers happy so as not to interrupt their revenue stream.

Bungie need to win over customers, while Blizzard need to avoid losing customers.

I saw the same article and had the exact same reaction. If that's all it takes for people to think I'm angry then they don't know me very well.

They can know you very well and still fall into the same trap; the main reason it happens is because conversation is reliant on all manner of non-verbal cues taken from (amongst others) body language. Some linguists would say it's far less what you say that matters, and far more about how you say it. Once you take all those cues away we are reduced to the same level as an autistic person, somebody who simply doesn't understand the cues, and I'm sure you're familiar with how difficult that makes conversing for those individuals!

There's lots of material to be read on the subject if you're interested. Personally I find it fascinating stuff - if can explain a lot about how disagreements form when talking online...!

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I'm surprised. By now I assumed everyone who had used the internet for more than 4 or 5 years understood (and had read about one of the numerous studies about) how tone is consistently misread in the written word, particularly online. The best thing you can do is use explicit tone through exclamation marks (to show enthusiasm!) and judicious use of emphasis. All caps has meant shouting since the very first time I posted on Usenet, in 1997 (I remember a classmate at university being chided for it).

So, I guess what I mean to say is that when you only choose to respond to me to disagree, vehemently, usually by repeatedly emphasising the same word, it comes across as pointedly negative if not outright hostile. That's the persona you have painted for me. I'm afraid you have to take some responsibility for that, and just claiming that it's because you're old fashioned doesn't cut it.

The recurring theme I have when I post on DBO is that there is some usually pretty interesting debate, then 2-3 people come in and declare that not only is this opinion wrong, but (words to the effect of) why did you even post this? It seems to come about exclusively on topics where somebody who holds Bungie to be infallible might perceive the subject as being critical of Bungie's actions. And I'm afraid this is more or less exclusively the kind of response you write to my posts. It's an unhealthily absolutist perspective, one that I suspect others find unappealing too.

I think it's fair to say we all share a love of Bungie's work, their mindset and their approach. That much is probably never going to change. But the world of games development doesn't stand still, and what was brilliance at one stage will ultimately be considered a baseline later on. Bungie staff know full well they need to continually raise the bar, but I feel like this isn't as widely understood amongst fans here. Appreciating that the future path of games will mean trying out new and different things is something all fans will need to recognise, or else forever be bitter about the 'good old days'. So rather than dismiss, how about we encourage these different viewpoints: they enrich each and every one of us.

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

How do people know if you've finished a sentence?

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I saw the same article and had the exact same reaction. If that's all it takes for people to think I'm angry then they don't know me very well.

There's some irony in you complaining about condescension (imagined, by the way) given your tendency to write angry screeds with words in ALL CAPS for emphasis. Presumably there's nothing condescending about that in your mind?

Nope - if anything, it's me not adjusting to the times.

I still use caps to emphasize - I write forum posts like I write email, like I used to write usenet posts; without thinking, usually, about stuff like bold and italics (which would serve the exact same purpose but wouldn't make you misinterpret my words as angry screeds). Sorry - I'm old. Sometimes, when I'm just writing stuff, I'm not thinking about the lens my words are being looked at THROUGH. (Sorry, through.)

It's funny - I just saw an article about this two days ago - about how periods in text messages are now being interpreted as 'angry'. I laughed - I guess I shouldn't have.

I appreciate your posts, so don't take it personally. I don't really understand your point of view post-beta announcement, but okay. You seem to have a better idea than I do regarding what kind of game Destiny is, and how a community should be built for such a game. I can't debate what I don't know, so I went with "This is where my head is regarding Destiny."

Not taken personally, don't worry - I just wanted to focus on what I consider the important point of what I wrote, which isn't really about me at all, but what I think would help Bungie make Destiny succeed.

I don't know if I'm in the right direction with my thinking about how Destiny will play. It's kind of frustrating that this late in the day I still don't have much clarity in that regard, but I've decided to just run with the idea of it being how I imagine it will be, and I'll have to amend my thinking later if I'm badly wrong. All of what I wrote is predicated on certain assumptions about gameplay, but I think it very unlikely that the gameplay is so different that it invalidates my suggested engagement with the community on game mechanics.

As ever, we shall see.

Love the condescension - really helps me want to have a discussion like this.

There's some irony in you complaining about condescension (imagined, by the way) given your tendency to write angry screeds with words in ALL CAPS for emphasis. Presumably there's nothing condescending about that in your mind?

Seriously though, if you feel like I'm going over old ground then I don't see why you'd even bother to respond.

Characterising what I wrote as impatience really does miss the point. This isn't about me or any other fan impatiently making demands - read my response to Claude for a more detailed breakdown of why I think this is something Bungie should do.

Your post was just an excuse for me to write about my own subjective feelings regarding the Bungie's reveal strategy.

I appreciate your posts, so don't take it personally. I don't really understand your point of view post-beta announcement, but okay. You seem to have a better idea than I do regarding what kind of game Destiny is, and how a community should be built for such a game. I can't debate what I don't know, so I went with "This is where my head is regarding Destiny."

It confuses me why this is an 'argument' in the first place. What is it about the suggestions I made that makes them so abhorrent to people on this forum that rather than provoking a reaction like, hey yeah, that could be really insightful and interesting! people get their back up and start defending Bungie's current course of action as if they're above criticism or suggestions for improvement? It's a pretty common theme on this forum that criticism is met with Fisking. Can I ask that you try and see it from somebody else's perspective for once?

Love the condescension - really helps me want to have a discussion like this.

The problem is not that nobody understands your perspective - the problem is that you're asking for the same thing you've been asking for for weeks (months?), and it's something that Bungie has, many times, said "thanks for your input, we're not going that way."

I'm not defending Bungie's course of action - I'm accepting it, and personally appreciating it. I understand that you're not - but that's not going to change the fact that they understand what you want, and have said, repeatedly (and politely), that you're not going to get it.

There are people here who LIKE that there's very little info about how the game is played - are you saying that your opinion is more valuable than theirs, that they shouldn't be able to answer your request for greater transparency with their own hope for a launch day (or beta day) surprise? That disagreement with your point of view is automatically placing Bungie above criticism?