The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.

That is actually a fair point that I hadn’t considered, oddly enough, since that was my main gripe with Destiny for ages. Both of those models actually suck though.

Diablo's isn't ideal, but at the end of the day, when you game is all about grinding the same content endlessly, how much does it really matter if the idea is to constantly give you a ladder to climb?

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.

Define lots. I can't even think of ten profitable titles with a 6+ year dev cycle.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]

Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.

Many? I feel like just a few years ago, Bungie's size was considered massive.

Times have changed. A lot of AAA games have more than 400 people working on them these days.

The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.

That is actually a fair point that I hadn’t considered, oddly enough, since that was my main gripe with Destiny for ages. Both of those models actually suck though.

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.

Define lots. I can't even think of ten profitable titles with a 6+ year dev cycle.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]

Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.

Many? I feel like just a few years ago, Bungie's size was considered massive.

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

There's a difference between the items being taken from you and the character being moved out of the seasonal designation and into a standard save. Additionally, if the seasonal grind was designed around being restarted every season, it might not be so annoying. Additionally, if you fall off before the season is over, at least you can continue in non-seasonal capacity when you return.

I still prefer Diablo 3's model (similar to this one) than to the one Destiny 2 had for years. The content you were already playing had its light level requirement increased and returning to the game meant you couldn't play that content anymore, period, until you did your grind. Diablo doesn't do that.

To say they can't even in theory is just making excuses.

Of course developers are turning the discourse into managing expectations. Wouldn't want folks to get used to not being fed dogshit.

2: Baldur’s Gate 3 is likely to be an anomaly, not a standard.

These 'anomalous conditions' can be controlled. A large studio can recreate those conditions should they wish. But they don't. It's easier to make bullshit monetization platforms than to create a truly exceptional game.

The thread states the following make it unrealistic:

Dev cycle stretching back to ~2017

Lots of huge games have had 6+ year developments. Not anomalous.

Two massive games--and their Definitive editions--worth of tech and institutional knowledge to draw from

Studios can treat their workers right instead of churning through them in order to hold onto institutional knowledge. Nothing about this is unobtainable.

Super successful Early Access period lasting 3 years, providing crucial community feedback, bug hunting, and cash flow

Nothing stopping a studio from doing this. Not unobtainable.

Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]

Super Obtainable. Many AAA studios are even bigger than this.

The license, brand, and world of one of the largest entertainment IPs in the world (D&D), at the apex of its popularity with the rise of the actual play movement, and a movie

IP is something major publisher and developers have tons of. Not unobtainable.

Of course, not every RPG should be like this. Not every great game has to be absolutely giant in scope. Nobody is going to hold smaller teams to the same standard. But most AAA developers have no real ground to stand on when they say they could not do it. They are right in a sense; they can't do it because they haven't cultivated the conditions to do so. And that is BY CHOICE.

If this becomes something players expect from AAA games in the future, other AAA studios will simply have to make these conditions the norm and adapt. If big studios don't want to do this, they should simply say 'We don't want to make this type of game". To say they can't even in theory is just making excuses.

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Two Things:

1: In the event that Xbox Series S doesn't screw things over, I will be getting Baldur’s Gate 3. My First foray into DnD!

2: Baldur’s Gate 3 is likely to be an anomaly, not a standard. There was a bunch of Dev. chatter about this a few weeks ago actually, in fact (which was then quickly picked up by the "be outraged" youtubers). Here is an unrolled thread talking about such.

Like a lot of people, I'm deeply excited about what the lovely folks at Larian accomplished with Baldur's Gate 3, but I want to gently, pre-emptively push back against players taking that excitement and using it to apply criticism or a "raised standard" to RPGs going forward
1/10

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

You can't separate a game from the process used to build it, so let's look at what Larian is taking into the development and final version of this game:
2/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

1) Dev cycle stretching back to ~2017
1) Two massive games--and their Definitive editions--worth of tech and institutional knowledge to draw from
3) Super successful Early Access period lasting 3 years, providing crucial community feedback, bug hunting, and cash flow
3/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

4) Over 400 developers in 7 different offices around the world [not including outsourcing partners]
5) The license, brand, and world of one of the largest entertainment IPs in the world (D&D), at the apex of its popularity with the rise of the actual play movement, and a movie
4/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

This is a small, incomplete list.

Larian is coming into this game SWINGING, with a gigantic weight of expectation to deal with--but they're also doing it with an *immense* amount of wind (direct experience + resources + specialty tooling +++ etc.) at their backs.
5/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

As a TL;DR:
In an era of megagames, Baldur's Gate 3 is one of the largest attempted, built by a specialized group of people using mature tech specially built to make *this specific game*, reinforced by invaluable mass player feedback AND market validation ahead of its launch
6/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

This is not a new baseline for RPGs--this is an anomaly.

Trying to do the same thing in the same way, especially without the same advantages, could kill an entire GROUP of studios.
7/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

If they go as big or bigger with their next title, Larian themselves could die! That's the risk and reward of the megagame.

We are an industry dangling elephants over cliffs, pointing at the ones that don't collapse under their own weight as indictments to the ones that do.
8/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

So please, celebrate the achievement represented by Baldur's Gate 3. It looks like a massive amount of effort is about to pay off in a big way, for one of the brightest voices in the medium...
9/

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

...but if you shout that "EVERY RPG SHOULD BE LIKE THIS GOING FORWARD, YOU HAVE NO EXCUSE--"

You've not just missed the point, you've created the expectations and conditions to ensure your favorite creators may never be able to give you the thing you love ever again.
10/10

— Xalavier Nelson Jr. (@WritNelson) July 8, 2023

Great thread. The conditions under which BG3 was made are atypical. This is in no way a slight against the game or the people working on it, who are clearly passionate and talented.

Having the foundation set and the funding to build things on your own terms is invaluable. https://t.co/DpEgZqP1oc

— Josh Sawyer (@jesawyer) July 9, 2023

Edit: Oh hey! Look! You scrolled down. Neat. It occurred to me that I need to say one more thing. Business types... are stupid. No stupider than the rest of us (in theory anyway), but the power they wield is often done so (in my experience anyway) in a very monkey see monkey do mentality.

What's that saying? I fear no man, but these fuckwads scare me. Or something like that, I may be paraphrasing.

Once the Game Industry STANDS-THEFUCK-UP and Unionizes like other creative industries, and "Crunch Culture" becomes a well overdue relic of the past, among other things, then yeah... let's hit it. Learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3, indeed. But not before the gosh-darned meat grinder jaws that often get switched on to serve to shareholders on a silver platter get disabled and reworked into something actually useful for everyone involved, "meat" included. Otherwise, I'm afraid Mr.Nelson Jr. over here may be on to something. Unfortunately.

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Don't know anything about either game really, so I'll defer to you. Bungie devs have rhetorically encouraged people to take breaks. I'd appreciate a reasonable way to reduce FOMO.

1. Let people bank rewards. Don't do your activity this week? You can do it twice next week and get rewarded twice.
2. Don't vault anything. That way you can always go back and do a thing.

Problem solved. No FOMO.

Someone explain to me why this solution is somehow unworkable because it seems so obvious.

I’m not sure Diablo 4 is a game anyone should be looking to as an example of how to do anything correctly, and definitely not in the way this article talks about. Would you really want to play more Destiny if it took away all your gear and upgrades and made you start from zero every three months?

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Don't know anything about either game really, so I'll defer to you. Bungie devs have rhetorically encouraged people to take breaks. I'd appreciate a reasonable way to reduce FOMO.

I wish they’d learn from something like Baldur’s Gate 3 instead (based on what I’ve seen about it so far).

Would you like it if they did?