Looking at it, it appeared to be worse, since while it had a higher attack, the impact was lower. Tests indicated it did about 20% less damage. Sucks right?

Nope! It had a way higher rate of fire, plus higher stability, and I found I was able to kill guys much faster with it, since the decreased damage was more than offset by the faster firing and increased accuracy.

That's exactly *why* I'd like to see some numbers.

Even at its most basic, you could multiply RoF by Impact for a DPS figure (or Damage Per whatever the RoF is measured in)

Edit: I can't speak for Schooly, so I don't know if the problem for him is that it isn't Halo, but that isn't my problem with it. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

He explained exactly why he didn't like it:

http://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=23735

TLDR there's stuff that kills you instantly and takes no skill to use.

The thing is, is that with the supers, the hunter is flaming so you can SEE and avoid, and the nova bomb and titan smash all have startup animations. I don't know, but if you see a titan running right at a control point, he's gonna super you.

He fails to mention that on the moon map, there's tunnels and stuff to connect things where the interceptor can't get you, and it's easily taken out with supers / heavies.

It just doesn't bother me.

He must not hate it that much, because he's still playing it.

I would love to read your analysis when you are done.

Edit: I can't speak for Schooly, so I don't know if the problem for him is that it isn't Halo, but that isn't my problem with it. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Really loving the campaign/co-op story mode stuff, though. I feel like it's far more worth my time and far more rewarding than the multiplayer that really presents no sense of accomplishment.

You can compare a weapon with the one you have equipped by hovering over that weapon and pulling the right trigger. It will show you green or red bars for each attribute to indicate which weapon is better.

If you do it that way then at best you have to do it once for every weapon you have and at worst you have to do it for every pair of weapons, and you'd have to compare again after you upgrade a weapon, and if you have to compare every item to every other item the number of comparisons increases faster than the number of items. That would take up a lot of time and be really tedious. It's hard to think Bungie would be blind to this, but it's slightly less hard to think that they might think this is acceptable and won't hurt enjoyment, somehow; I hope neither is the case.

Yeah, I've seen that, and it's obviously very helpful.

I'd just like numbers so I could be even more exacting. But I'm the kind of guy who likes spreadsheets too, so...

You can't always go by numbers. Sometimes, you gotta feel it out.

I used a scout rifle for the longest time, but then acquired a green one. Looking at it, it appeared to be worse, since while it had a higher attack, the impact was lower. Tests indicated it did about 20% less damage. Sucks right?

Nope! It had a way higher rate of fire, plus higher stability, and I found I was able to kill guys much faster with it, since the decreased damage was more than offset by the faster firing and increased accuracy.

It sounds like you just forgot to take rate of fire into account. I can see how stability would be problematic but if they told us how it works we could figure out DPS and cones of fire, and then I'd be up to my ears in math just like I didn't want to be. If they are going to go this route, and at this point it's clear they are, I'd rather be able to do the math than have to test-fire to find out how much damage something does and how fast and how accurate it is and just generally if it's worth using.

This is where I wish the tower had some kind of firing range. I want to easily compare the feel of weapons without going out in the wild. This is especially true with special and heavy weapons because I either have to hunt down ammo or burn ammo packs just to test fire them.

Having a borderlands style firing range would be awesome. I could live without numbers if I could easily test and determine my best weapon. I'd just like to have an easy way to see that without trial and error in the crucible.

- CC

Granted, I think Crucible as a whole is highly flawed on a number of levels (I'll probably get more into that after I have more time with the Beta once it launches on 360, that or point to Schooly's topic on why PvP sucks), but Iron Banner was impressively frustrating.

In my opinion, Schooly is wrong and he doesn't like it because it's not Halo, but I'd like to hear more from those of you who are more hardcore PvPers.

Yeah, I've seen that, and it's obviously very helpful.

I'd just like numbers so I could be even more exacting. But I'm the kind of guy who likes spreadsheets too, so...

You can't always go by numbers. Sometimes, you gotta feel it out.

I used a scout rifle for the longest time, but then acquired a green one. Looking at it, it appeared to be worse, since while it had a higher attack, the impact was lower. Tests indicated it did about 20% less damage. Sucks right?

Nope! It had a way higher rate of fire, plus higher stability, and I found I was able to kill guys much faster with it, since the decreased damage was more than offset by the faster firing and increased accuracy.

I'd just like numbers so I could be even more exacting. But I'm the kind of guy who likes spreadsheets too, so...

The one with more impact does more damage in leveled PvP. The attack number is the damage boost the weapon gets in PvE and Iron Banner.

Do you happen to know the math behind this? They tell me to bring my best stuff to the Iron Banner. Well, how do I know? Trial and error? I'd like to just calculate the damage based on stats.

- CC I might be making too much of this, but it would give me confidence I'm bringing my "A" game.

I believe the Attack Number is part of what gets equalized. The bars are what you should compare between guns. Am I willing to give up Impact (Damage) for Range?

Right, but when the equalization is gone, is it just attack number? A combination of both? e.g. I have 2 Auto Rifles. One has higher impact but the other has higher attack. If we're playing without the level equalization, which one does more damage per shot?

- CC

Why remove the level equalization?

I played a match last night and I either felt like I was OP'd against some guardians or torn up by someone OP'd. I still went K/D and we won but it was a pretty unsatisfying experience aside from getting to play on Rusted Lands again.

The rewards look really cool and I like the idea of getting that purple ship (I think I saw Schooly D had it), but I don't appreciate the means by which you get them.

It feels inherently less competitive and silly. And considering that vanilla Crucible still allows you to use whatever skill tree enhancements you have on your gear or your guardian it's already weirdly imbalanced.

I'm just curious, does anyone actually like the idea of no level equalization in the Iron Banner or do they just like the "event" nature and the rewards?

With the equalizations removed, is the attack number all that matters?

This game confuses me on the finer details of PvP - and I feel dumb for it.

- CC

I believe the Attack Number is part of what gets equalized. The bars are what you should compare between guns. Am I willing to give up Impact (Damage) for Range?

Why remove the level equalization?

I played a match last night and I either felt like I was OP'd against some guardians or torn up by someone OP'd. I still went K/D and we won but it was a pretty unsatisfying experience aside from getting to play on Rusted Lands again.

The rewards look really cool and I like the idea of getting that purple ship (I think I saw Schooly D had it), but I don't appreciate the means by which you get them.

It feels inherently less competitive and silly. And considering that vanilla Crucible still allows you to use whatever skill tree enhancements you have on your gear or your guardian it's already weirdly imbalanced.

I'm just curious, does anyone actually like the idea of no level equalization in the Iron Banner or do they just like the "event" nature and the rewards?

With the equalizations removed, is the attack number all that matters?

This game confuses me on the finer details of PvP - and I feel dumb for it.

- CC