What I mean by this is the concept of high-level vs. low-level. Low-levels can shoot all they want, but if Mr High-level's stats are high enough, he can stand there and laugh at their attempts to scratch him with grenades, machine-guns and sniper-rifles before insta-killing them with his pistol and melee.

In my opinion, if you want to do more damage or increase your defense, it should be done by getting higher-quality equipment and applying upgrades.
Any bonuses like increasing reload speed or reducing recoil that are applied to the character's base skills should come in significant, 15-25% upgrades.
I am also fine with different special abilities, e.g. bonuses to abilities like hacking, medicine, disarming bombs etc.

The best game I can think of that applies the kind of system I am thinking about is Deus Ex: Human Revolution. You start with very basic abilities and stats. Upgrades come in big chunks, for example, one upgrade gives you a whole new ability, or lets you hack the next level of computers (it goes from 1-5), and upgrades to stats like recoil reduction come in big boosts. Each little skill tree has a limited number of steps.
Weapons have a similar upgrade system in Deus Ex. There are "ability" upgrades, e.g. one that gives your shotgun burst fire capacity, and stat upgrades, ones that increase the magazine size or provide damage boosts.

At the end of the day, though, a low-level character will be able to perform the same tasks as the high-level one, but the high-level player's abilities will give him more options and breathing room to complete the task in the manner he chooses. But important thing is that the low-level guy and the high-level guy can pick up the same gun and kill the same guy with the same number of shots.

I just wanted to point out here a quote from the latest Mailsack that made me less worried about the competitive multiplayer:

LLamuh: Will competitive gamers have a home in Destiny?
Yes. The most competitive guys at our studio are having a damn good time playing Destiny.
Josh Hamrick, Senior Designer

Of course it just goes back to Bungie makes games that they want to play, but it still makes me happy :)

There was also:
"Madness
Is everything in Destiny made so "lone wolves" like me can enjoy the game as much as the guys who like to play cooperatively?
You won’t be required to partner with strangers to achieve your goals in Destiny. You’ll have all the freedom you need to blaze your own trail. "

and:
"Mandroid
Will there be grinding? I hate having to grind for stuff.
Destiny is an action game, so you’ll grind your enemies into dust. "

Right now, that seems to tell me pretty clearly there's no need to worry about coop, and there's no need to worry about stats doing something wacky to your aim. Can we put this to bed until more information comes out?

Of course it's more necessary in more point-and-click-y RPGs, but I don't think it's irrelevant or should be shunned in a shooter,

I do, but I'll wait until I can actually play the game to make a call on Destiny, in case Bungie can magic gameplay that interests and engages me out of ideas that don't. (the story matters too, but if it's not fun, I won't play it more than maybe a dozen times)

especially one like Destiny* that seems to be taking the focus off of competitive multiplayer.

That's all good and well, but I'm going to play the competitive multiplayer, and unless it sucks or some other mode is way better I'm almost definitely going to play it more than any other mode, so I hope it's good, and I hope it's fair.

*I could also point to Mass Effect again here. Both single- and multi-player modes have leveling systems which impact gunplay, and it works. Going into a multiplayer match with a low-leveled character leaves you somewhat less effective than your compatriots, but not helpless by a long shot.

doesn't Mass Effect not have competitive multiplayer though, just cooperative?

I just wanted to point out here a quote from the latest Mailsack that made me less worried about the competitive multiplayer:

LLamuh: Will competitive gamers have a home in Destiny?
Yes. The most competitive guys at our studio are having a damn good time playing Destiny.
Josh Hamrick, Senior Designer

Of course it just goes back to Bungie makes games that they want to play, but it still makes me happy :)

Excitement rising.

It also glamorizes smoking, which is awesome in this sterile PC world today!

No it's not.

It's impossible to get across all the nuances of (for example) shooting a gun through an interface as simple as a game controller. The skill curve just isn't as high in theory. So we have leveling, in which you control your character and your character controls the gun - and gets better at it as he goes along.

That doesn't make it sound any better. I still want my input to be the primary thing-- almost the only thing-- that determines what my character does, how they do it, and how well they do it.

Of course it's more necessary in more point-and-click-y RPGs, but I don't think it's irrelevant or should be shunned in a shooter,

I do, but I'll wait until I can actually play the game to make a call on Destiny, in case Bungie can magic gameplay that interests and engages me out of ideas that don't. (the story matters too, but if it's not fun, I won't play it more than maybe a dozen times)

especially one like Destiny* that seems to be taking the focus off of competitive multiplayer.

That's all good and well, but I'm going to play the competitive multiplayer, and unless it sucks or some other mode is way better I'm almost definitely going to play it more than any other mode, so I hope it's good, and I hope it's fair.

*I could also point to Mass Effect again here. Both single- and multi-player modes have leveling systems which impact gunplay, and it works. Going into a multiplayer match with a low-leveled character leaves you somewhat less effective than your compatriots, but not helpless by a long shot.

doesn't Mass Effect not have competitive multiplayer though, just cooperative?

Well, the point with Mass Effect's FTL is that it is a very consistent point in the universe. A sort of piezoelectric-like substance is found buried somewhere, which allows us to break usual mass conventions. Such effect is used throughout the game as a scientific explanation to both how most weapons in the game work and how all Force-like abilities work.

that sounds about as bad as "hard light"

Well, the point is, it almost didn't feel like magic at all (given you read the material about it [available unobtrusively in-game]). Maybe Destiny will work like that too.

almost?

The smoking thing is pretty awesome.

Excitement rising.

It also glamorizes smoking, which is awesome in this sterile PC world today!

Hong Kong Cinema

Excitement rising.

Vanquish is the equivalent of Hong Kong Cinema, and if you've got a taste for that, it's divine, and more satisfying than anything Bay or Bruckheimer could put on the screen.

Leveling isn't a bad thing. It can be argued that it's an easy way to simulate real-world skill progression.

I'm sure that's why it exists in the first place, and that's why I don't like it. Maybe playing video games isn't that useful in general but at least with most of them I'm getting better at that particular game and probably working on my dexterity, but if I'm just increasing some numbers that make what I've been doing (or roughly the same thing) more effective, I don't even have that actual progression, and it seems even more pointless.

It's impossible to get across all the nuances of (for example) shooting a gun through an interface as simple as a game controller. The skill curve just isn't as high in theory. So we have leveling, in which you control your character and your character controls the gun - and gets better at it as he goes along.

Of course it's more necessary in more point-and-click-y RPGs, but I don't think it's irrelevant or should be shunned in a shooter, especially one like Destiny* that seems to be taking the focus off of competitive multiplayer.

On that point, however, I think that with the inclusion of competitive multiplayer in Destiny and given Bungie's love of a consistent sandbox, there's hope that any leveling system will have relatively low impact on gunplay.

*I could also point to Mass Effect again here. Both single- and multi-player modes have leveling systems which impact gunplay, and it works. Going into a multiplayer match with a low-leveled character leaves you somewhat less effective than your compatriots, but not helpless by a long shot.

Have you played Mass Effect, or are you familiar with the concept of Biotics?

no and no

You should check it out. It's a great series.

IMO it's a very well-executed magic-in-sci-fi system - actually operating on a similar concept to their FTL drives - and works very well in gameplay.

most FTL travel in fiction isn't based on very sound stuff, at least according to our understanding now, so that doesn't really help

You're missing the point. Whether or not FTL in fiction makes sense is irrelevant. Mass Effect isn't hard sci-fi and you shouldn't expect it to be. My point was that the games' "magic" (so to speak) system is consistent in-universe with several other technologies springing from the same unobtanium. That, and it's fun.

Are you kidding? The story may not be anything to write home about, but it's also so much fun. They skipped a deep, involving plot for something that matched the gameplay.

Also, I hate you all. Now I have to go play it again.

I didn't mean to imply that it was bad (rereading my post I definitely think I could have worded it better!) =P I know people here tend to gravitate toward games that have deeper/more complex stories and didn't want anyone hopping into the game expecting that.

/I'm also getting the urge to pick it up again...

Well, the point is, it almost didn't feel like magic at all (given you read the material about it [available unobtrusively in-game]). Maybe Destiny will work like that too.

most FTL travel in fiction isn't based on very sound stuff, at least according to our understanding now, so that doesn't really help

Neither is Halo's Slipspace;

like I said, most FTL in fiction isn't based on anything very sound or solid

if you want star-spanning space operas you're going to have to fudge science-as-we-know-it somehow.

Do you see how I said FTL in fiction? I have moderately good hopes for the warp drive/Alcubierre drive, which basically uses a loophole in how space-time works (or at least the standard theories of it), going on the idea that space-time itself can warp (change shape and configuration) faster than the speed of light.

Much as I love Halo, the FTL in it was kinda tacked on and I've always griped that weapons technology shown was too primitive for societies that can travel between stars.

FTL is kind of necessary for what they were doing, and even if it was tacked on it turned into something a little bigger and more important. As for weapons, a society having one advanced technology doesn't mean they'll have a different one. If you don't want to go with that, I still like these ideas.

The intersection of "Player skill" (you) vs. "Character skill" (your level in game) is a classic game design tradeoff. Looked at linearly, Kotor, Baldur's gate, or old school JRPGs sit at one end (all that matters is character skill), while Halo (pre 4) and quake/UT sit at the other.

and I like Halo, especially pre-Halo 4, so you can see why I'm leery of going towards the other end of the spectrum, right?

Enjoyable by the tired, impatient and distracted. Bungie believes that players don’t play games to "work hard, read or go the internet to figure out our bullshit." The core experience, Jones says, has to be delivered as simply and easily as possible. And that pillar led Bungie to "throw out a bunch of dearly-held ideas."

I don't like the sound of that. It sounds like "We're dumbing down this game and making it easy, we're ignoring a lot of our principles, and we don't care about people getting together on the Internet to figure our stuff out [AKA what b.org is mainly about]". I'm pretty sure that's not how he meant it, but it doesn't sound good, and I'm not going to be surprised now if some of that ends up being true.

The last one directly applies to what you are saying. It implies that Bungie won't build a complicated stat systems, and they are looking for things to be easily explainable.

It doesn't matter if it's complicated or not, having any stats that affect how well I do more than how well I'm doing or how good I am will bother me, maybe enough to not play the game.

The others deal with another major problem in Role Playing games: Grinding. Grinding is the act where you repeat a section of the game not because you enjoy it, but because it will get your character stronger. These items are pretty explicitly rejecting that. Notice, "Accomplish something in an hour" and "Variety of content" "A new experience every night." Here, Jones clearly rejects grinding, and strengthening your character without doing something rewarding.

That "accomplish something in an hour" part is pretty vague though, isn't it? All that's required for that to be true is for the player to accomplish something, not necessarily something meaningful or fun.

Neither is Halo's Slipspace; if you want star-spanning space operas you're going to have to fudge science-as-we-know-it somehow. Much as I love Halo, the FTL in it was kinda tacked on and I've always griped that weapons technology shown was too primitive for societies that can travel between stars.

Eh, Slipspace is pretty much the most common form of FTL, just usually called something else (hyperspace, sub ether, subspace, etc.). I agree it's weak, but not any weaker than 90% or more of science fiction.

Neither is Halo's Slipspace; if you want star-spanning space operas you're going to have to fudge science-as-we-know-it somehow.

Yep.

-- Steve notes that FTL may not exist in Destiny, given that the game is confined (so far as is known yet) to the planets in our own solar system, so the level of fantasy in it is indeterminate.

I think it does, just based on the ship at the beginning of the ViDoc "jumping".