Did you not read all of what I responded to? Kermit said that a) people wanting it and b) many games having it don't mean a game should a given feature. For either one by itself, I'm inclined to agree, but I submit that together those factors mean that a game should have whatever common feature is requested unless there is no way to include it and not degrade the quality of the game.

Well, you've probably just given one reason why Bungie doesn't include it. They believe it would degrade the quality of the game.

You obviously disagree. Now let's drop it.

I think we all get it. You guys want to control the sound levels individually like a lot of other games offer. Great. Point taken. Just because you want it, and because many other (not all) games offer this option, doesn't mean it should be included.

Yeah, actually, that does mean it should be included.

Really? A small number of gamers wanting it alone means it should be included?

Did you not read all of what I responded to? Kermit said that a) people wanting it and b) many games having it don't mean a game should a given feature. For either one by itself, I'm inclined to agree, but I submit that together those factors mean that a game should have whatever common feature is requested unless there is no way to include it and not degrade the quality of the game.

Nobody's saying it CAN'T be offered - not even Kermit. What they're saying is that it's not OWED to you.

Well the way some people put it makes it sound like they think it specifically shouldn't be in the game. If that's not the case

I'm not sure where I was going with that last part, I think I just hit post because I was falling asleep.

I think we all get it. You guys want to control the sound levels individually like a lot of other games offer. Great. Point taken. Just because you want it, and because many other (not all) games offer this option, doesn't mean it should be included.

Yeah, actually, that does mean it should be included.

Really? A small number of gamers wanting it alone means it should be included? Since when? So if I can get a few of my friends together to decide we want a sex mini-game in Destiny does that mean Bungie should include it in Destiny, because other games do? Our desires and what other games have in them does not mean Bungie SHOULD include the feature.

Right, nothing SHOULD be included. Unless you're on the development team or they have given you power to decide how the game SHOULD be developed, they'll decide whether they feel it's something that SHOULD be included, whether it's for 1% of their community or 99%.

Now, whether it's wise to include something or not is an entirely different question.
On numbers alone, it's wiser to include something that 99% of people want than 1%. OTOH, if including it causes other problems, then it may still be wiser not to include it even if 99% want it. That's a judgement call the developers have to make.

Paying customers demanding something (that was never promised) as if they're entitled to it is wrong. Community desiring something and doing their best to convince developers to include it - that's respectable. Especially if they can trust the decision if they don't include it.

I think we all get it. You guys want to control the sound levels individually like a lot of other games offer. Great. Point taken. Just because you want it, and because many other (not all) games offer this option, doesn't mean it should be included.

Yeah, actually, that does mean it should be included.

Really? A small number of gamers wanting it alone means it should be included? Since when? So if I can get a few of my friends together to decide we want a sex mini-game in Destiny does that mean Bungie should include it in Destiny, because other games do? Our desires and what other games have in them does not mean Bungie SHOULD include the feature.

I guess what sets me off about this issue is that one of the things that Bungie is known for, that sets them apart from other developers is their attention to the sound mix and the high bar they set for it. (One need not look any farther than Halo 4 for a counter example.) They treat it with the same obsessive care that they treat other non-adjustable elements like character and level design, dialogue, and story--all of which are crafted to provide a sublime experience.

except there are times in the Halo games (IDK about their ones) where each of those can vary

I'm kind of stunned by how many of who I assumed were hardcore Bungie fans don't seem to appreciate one of the prime ingredients in their secret sauce.

I think we all appreciate it. That doesn't mean we wouldn't like to be able to adjust it.

I think we all get it. You guys want to control the sound levels individually like a lot of other games offer. Great. Point taken. Just because you want it, and because many other (not all) games offer this option, doesn't mean it should be included.

Yeah, actually, that does mean it should be included.

Agreed -- I might just say a way Destiny excites me is that it's a new Bungie franchise. I like to think of the company like I think of Miles Davis -- he was someone who periodically revolutionized his art form and then set the bar for others to emulate.

Marathon had a deep story, Myth had a deep story. Both had absolutely tangible emotional content, in part because of the spectacular writing and universe creation, in part because there was true artistry with the narrative.

The real thing that excites me about Destiny is that Bungie is a company that has, in the past (I'm thinking of Myth here), never shrunk away from taking risks when it came to something the company believed in, and that's what innovation is all about.

The Miles Davis analogy is fitting. In music there are those artists who, though I'm never quite sure what they're going to do next, you can bet your ass I'm going to be there to hear it because no matter how much they've changed or what direction they've decided to take, I know it's going to be a wild ride. All I know is that Bungie's next album is going to be fucking killer.

I'm kind of stunned by how many of who I assumed were hardcore Bungie fans don't seem to appreciate one of the prime ingredients in their secret sauce.

I hope I never come off as "not appreciative" towards Marty and his team. I love the audio that he's done and he's only been getting better in my opinion. Perhaps I should have gotten that out first.

But I thought since we were discussing it, would it be a nice tool to remove audio or vocals or certain sound effects in theater mode? I was just hoping to find a way to make it easier for machinima makers without dissing bungie.

I'm kind of stunned by how many of who I assumed were hardcore Bungie fans don't seem to appreciate one of the prime ingredients in their secret sauce.

it looks like you and another person missed his point.

Is that me you are referring to? Are you just assuming that because GV mentioned I brought it up means I'm on a particular side?
I'm not on anyone's side because nobody is on my side. ;)

I think if you read my post it was more of trying to find an equivalent than stating firefight was an equivalent.

Yes, we had the ability to change enemy settings in Firefight because that was the entire purpose of the mode. That wasn't a game-wide setting that allowed you to affect the enemy encounters in every part of the game; meanwhile the request about the audio controls is

This got me thinking, maybe sliders would be a good idea is theater mode. I don't think that it would be ideal for campaign, but depending on how theater is crafted, might there be a place for it there?

If you want it to be included, why don't you go get a job at Bungie and put it in the game?

Weird to be defending GV here, but, that's not the point. I know your post is just a rant, but what the conversation is about is trying to find a place (if there is one) for audio adjustments. We don't have to work for bungie to want/comment on it. The fact that bungie reads these forums means that it's a place for us to voice our opinions, wants, ect. They certainly don't have to listen, but they might.

They gave us just that in Firefight in Reach though (well, for Jackal snipers it's just hazards on/off IIRC, but you can change groups of enemies and certain groups come at the same time, so you can do that with all the other enemies). edit: I see someone else brought this up... oh well

This thread is ridiculous and I know I'll be sorry for jumping in here, but how can you honestly even say this is equivalent. I know that Claude was using the point to illustrate how absurd this conversation is, but it looks like you and another person missed his point.

Yes, we had the ability to change enemy settings in Firefight because that was the entire purpose of the mode. That wasn't a game-wide setting that allowed you to affect the enemy encounters in every part of the game; meanwhile the request about the audio controls is

I think we all get it. You guys want to control the sound levels individually like a lot of other games offer. Great. Point taken. Just because you want it, and because many other (not all) games offer this option, doesn't mean it should be included. If you want it to be included, why don't you go get a job at Bungie and put it in the game?

/end rant

Nobody's saying it CAN'T be offered - not even Kermit. What they're saying is that it's not OWED to you.

Well the way some people put it makes it sound like they think it specifically shouldn't be in the game. If that's not the case

As Narcogen pointed out, some people don't like Jackal Snipers - but you don't expect Bungie to offer you an 'Enemy' slider to let you reduce their frequency to 0, so you can play the game without them. (That would fucking rock, by the way - but I don't hold it against them that they didn't give it to me.)

They gave us just that in Firefight in Reach though (well, for Jackal snipers it's just hazards on/off IIRC, but you can change groups of enemies and certain groups come at the same time, so you can do that with all the other enemies). edit: I see someone else brought this up... oh well

You seriously don't see a difference between a fixed piece of art, and a game you're supposed to play / use / interact with?

Not with regard to audio mix, no. The audio is not an interactive portion.

Actually it is.

No, it's not. Don't confuse getting a response from a your stimulus with being able to control the response from your stimulus.

You said it better than I did.

Not sure about that, but at least one person besides me understood that sentence.

Really the only game in recent memory I had trouble with audio levels was Halo 4.

Yeah I thought the mix in Halo 4 was pretty bad, especially compared to the Bungie Halos

Bungie has always been good about creating universes and backstory. In my opinion Bungie hasn't been so good lately on the narrative portion, but there is imagination and fun stuff to explore in the settings.

Agreed.

I remember finding tons of secret terminals in Marathon, and going places I shouldn't and finding out a lot of behind the scenes stuff in Deus Ex. That kind of thing you can't really do in other mediums. It's not a narrative; it's exploration of a setting.

I've missed this exploration component in modern games, particularly in the FPS genre. I think this is one reason why Marathon (and Star Wars: Dark Forces, as well) really stood out to me in the first place; you as the player weren't completely on rails, had the freedom to explore the environment beyond what was required by the mission parameters, and were duly rewarded for your exploration throughout the game.

If Destiny can capture that sense of awe and exploration, then it's going to be a huge hit!

This is one thing I enjoyed a lot in the Bioshock games. You can learn a lot of extra story wandering around listening to the audio diaries. Bioshock in my opinion brings back a lot of the classic shooter elements that I miss while still being a modern shooter. I'm hoping with how expansive a world Bioshock is that they will put in extras like that throughout the world.

I can see how it might be fun to do that with audio for machinima(sp?) makers or people who really really understand audio systems. Still, seems like something I would never mess with in a campaign space (at least the first time through). I value the story that the developer is trying to tell I hope/assume that they've tested the audio on different kinds of systems so it works well. Really the only game in recent memory I had trouble with audio levels was Halo 4.

So I can see where it would be useful, but I also see how it could be overbearing. I guess I don't really care because I wouldn't use it. lol

That would fucking rock, by the way - but I don't hold it against them that they didn't give it to me.

That.