A related point: I get this feeling that one goal for the mature Bungie is smart project management. Specifically, figuring out how to achieve their visions while retaining and not crushing the souls of the talented people they've attracted, in part by allowing them to have lives outside of their work. That's quite the hat trick in an industry that's infamous for grueling schedules.

I would love to see evidence of any of that. It is a great goal, I just don't think I've ever seen it mentioned even in passing. But maybe what you mean is mature=older and so yah as Bungie themselves gets older (the folks in the upper circles being parents and just older in general) then their sensibilities trickle down to the rest of the company's vision.

Well, here you go. I have seen asides hinting to this before, but I can't pinpoint those (one was from Jason, though). This from Rajeev Nattam seems on point:

Bungie is exceptionally friendly to families. Daycare, babysitting, time off, etc. Making a game like Destiny takes a lot of time and energy. Knowing that your employer cares about your family’s well-being is a good thing.

The schedule can still be pretty rough, especially when you have a dev milestone collide headlong into a major industry showcase event, but there's no doubt that the team is way more cognizant than ever about employee health and well-being. Things have steadily and significantly improved since the Halo 2 days. Bungie is a great place to work - easily the best place I've ever worked.

As far as benefits go, I'm constantly and consistently gobsmacked by all the packages and perks Bungie offers. I'll spare myself from having to type out the full list; I'd have to dedicate half a day to ensure I was being thorough enough. Perhaps the best term I can use to describe the full range of benefits is "thoughtful." That's pretty atypical for any industry, and I feel fortunate every single day I walk through the doors, even on the days that I know I'm not going to walk back out until the next morning.

:)

Actually that does make me scratch my head as well. Clearly, what we have been shown so far as made some people excited to explore those spaces. I don't think we can even say we've been shown any characters.

At this rate, the volume of art assets created by the community may well rival that of the game itself before the game is even released.

That's sort of great, but it's also sort of nuts on some level.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Right. The game industry has grown and gotten more competitive since 1999. I think that as Bungie has gotten more ambitious, they've gotten more cautious, too, at least in terms of setting expectations. They're avoiding setting a trap for themselves.

Which is a shanda.

A related point: I get this feeling that one goal for the mature Bungie is smart project management. Specifically, figuring out how to achieve their visions while retaining and not crushing the souls of the talented people they've attracted, in part by allowing them to have lives outside of their work. That's quite the hat trick in an industry that's infamous for grueling schedules.

I would love to see evidence of any of that. It is a great goal, I just don't think I've ever seen it mentioned even in passing. But maybe what you mean is mature=older and so yah as Bungie themselves gets older (the folks in the upper circles being parents and just older in general) then their sensibilities trickle down to the rest of the company's vision.

Don't tell Activision that. ;-)

I'd say we have seen one very important piece of evidence for that: the decision to become independent, own their own IP, and set their own release schedules.

Looking at Halo 2, you could say that a big part of the problem in that game's development cycle was spending so much time and effort on the Earth City demo that ended up not resulting in an enjoyable gameplay experience, and then having to refactor in order to keep going. The smart choice at that point would have been what Bungie wanted to do-- take another year, make the game right, and release later. MS doubled down on the release date instead, and as a first party developer, Bungie had to stick to the schedule.

All the release dates in the Activision-Bungie agreement that was revealed were tentative. Activision is acting as the publisher. They don't own the IP. There's no indication that they control the release schedule.

I think it's not too hard to make a guess that, in general, with Halo materials, the game was actually not as close to being "done" as the promotional materials would indicate at the time those materials are released (even if you factor in the knowledge that most materials were released weeks or even months after their creation, or were created with stable builds of the game that were much older than currently being worked on.)

I don't think it's too hard to believe that even if it's a year or more out, Destiny is still closer to being "done" than what we've been shown so far, which is relatively little. I do think Bungie is being very, very smart about managing expectations at this point.

I definitely appreciate that argument, but I'm saying the process of creating each of those demonstrations was also a pretty big timesink that may have been better spent actually working on real game mechanics rather than what amounted to an internal goal-setter. One could question whether the reveals created even more drive to push further and create a better final product than they would have otherwise, but who knows? It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Exactly which is why I don't understand the cautious approach. As you state, there's a tipping point between 'let's show them/us what we WANT this game to be like' and 'm-f'er we're wasting so much time on this and who knows if even half of this will be in game!' Internally, I would hope a company in the biz this long has sussed out how to dance along that line.

Maybe they have, maybe not. Maybe they decided it's too dangerous to even try, at least this early. Maybe they can't get the game to run for more than a few seconds without crashing or having horrible glitches.

You bring up another good point, that again puzzles me, kinda, in how it dictated their approach. Yes, when Halo 1/2/3 blah blah was shown, and then when those same games shipped, we could see what changed from conception to delivery. And more often than not, it was in a negative. Feature A was demo'd, but feature A was first on the chopping block.

Here's my point: HAVEN'T WE LEARNED OUR LESSON? After one or two games, isn't it NOW a mature sensible take that ANYTIME a demo is created, to not take it at as set in stone?

Sure, that's sensible and we have probably learned from those things, but there are new people getting into gaming every day, and they'll have the same kind of reactions a lot of us did when we were less mature.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Yep, and my only issue is that the former is a fireworks media event (that however dishonest as you label it, is a blood-pumping extravaganza), the latter is not. And the 'Bungie' that's lodged in the back of my head would've been upfront about it.

would've been up-front about what?

You got to see the coolness of the engine handling inside/outside environments seamlessly, of how the warthog handled driving across hilly terrain, and how the energy sword is badass, etc. The Destiny reveal, even when adding the Sony circus show, has yet to show *anything* even close to the same.

I agree

It amazes me the level of fanatacism over interviews and basically concept art. CONCEPT ART!?

What's wrong with concept art?

And then to have FAN BASED CONCEPT ART BASED ON CONCEPT ART!?

I really don't get what your issue is.

I'm the opposite re: what has been revealed and it being 'acceptable' and it does not compute in my mind the level of acceptance from the diehards.

I think you've just found one of the things where you're more stringent. This sounds like what I felt about some of their decisions. None of them are coming to mind at the moment but I remember it happening.

On Feb 17, I was looking for something more concrete than Jason Jones looking out of his element and talking awkwardly into a camera. The man's a game dev god, they should show him some fucking respect...

What do you mean?

but this all dovetails into my theory that Bungie is trying to wear a suit to this new party of the big players when they'd rather come in ripped jeans, a plaid shirt, and a bandana head wrap. Fuck, they'd probably just skip the party in the first place - they're too cool for that shit.

So why do you think they're doing this?

Yeah, the reveal so far has been sparse, but as you guys mentioned: the big Halo reveals (from Macworld, to E3 2001, to New Mombasa) were all total manufactured bullshit. I'd rather get a small trickle of real, genuine glimpses at things they're currently working on than another fake showstopper.

I'd like a real showstopper more than either of those.

A related point: I get this feeling that one goal for the mature Bungie is smart project management. Specifically, figuring out how to achieve their visions while retaining and not crushing the souls of the talented people they've attracted, in part by allowing them to have lives outside of their work. That's quite the hat trick in an industry that's infamous for grueling schedules.

I would love to see evidence of any of that. It is a great goal, I just don't think I've ever seen it mentioned even in passing. But maybe what you mean is mature=older and so yah as Bungie themselves gets older (the folks in the upper circles being parents and just older in general) then their sensibilities trickle down to the rest of the company's vision.

Well, here you go. I have seen asides hinting to this before, but I can't pinpoint those (one was from Jason, though). This from Rajeev Nattam seems on point:

Bungie is exceptionally friendly to families. Daycare, babysitting, time off, etc. Making a game like Destiny takes a lot of time and energy. Knowing that your employer cares about your family’s well-being is a good thing.

Your Annette Benning to my Kevin Spacey. I'm getting drunk and romantic and charged up to pile into you, you start to complain about spilling wine on the sofa.

It's just the character I play man. Gotta have contrast.

I hear ya.

Your Annette Benning to my Kevin Spacey. I'm getting drunk and romantic and charged up to pile into you, you start to complain about spilling wine on the sofa.

It's just the character I play man. Gotta have contrast.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Right. The game industry has grown and gotten more competitive since 1999. I think that as Bungie has gotten more ambitious, they've gotten more cautious, too, at least in terms of setting expectations. They're avoiding setting a trap for themselves.

Which is a shanda.

A related point: I get this feeling that one goal for the mature Bungie is smart project management. Specifically, figuring out how to achieve their visions while retaining and not crushing the souls of the talented people they've attracted, in part by allowing them to have lives outside of their work. That's quite the hat trick in an industry that's infamous for grueling schedules.

I would love to see evidence of any of that. It is a great goal, I just don't think I've ever seen it mentioned even in passing. But maybe what you mean is mature=older and so yah as Bungie themselves gets older (the folks in the upper circles being parents and just older in general) then their sensibilities trickle down to the rest of the company's vision.

Don't tell Activision that. ;-)

As Cody said right at the end, it only really got interesting when I came on board. ;-) Before that it was like being forced to attend an economics lecture and two TA's were debating supply-side vs kenyesian.

"Ass kissers, the lot of them!"

Now that's an entrance. :)

Heh, thanks.

You can claim the Halo reveals were fake at their core, but what they were *not* was imprecise setters of 'tone'.

I definitely appreciate that argument, but I'm saying the process of creating each of those demonstrations was also a pretty big timesink that may have been better spent actually working on real game mechanics rather than what amounted to an internal goal-setter. One could question whether the reveals created even more drive to push further and create a better final product than they would have otherwise, but who knows? It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Exactly which is why I don't understand the cautious approach. As you state, there's a tipping point between 'let's show them/us what we WANT this game to be like' and 'm-f'er we're wasting so much time on this and who knows if even half of this will be in game!' Internally, I would hope a company in the biz this long has sussed out how to dance along that line.

The reveal might be that even if you spent 15 years working on a game, that commitment to a 'demo' is fraught with virgin-nervousness. Am I doing it right? Am I doing it long enough? Is she going to yell for the cops?

Down the line, after release, there was always that point where they declassified the insanity that went on behind the scenes during the development process and we found they were NOWHERE NEAR the level of progress that the reveals implied, which would have been a major letdown if the public didn't already have the game in their grubby little hands by then. With the current size of the development team and all the leaks these days, I actually wonder if Bungie could have pulled off another "fake it 'til you make it" demo without facing down an embarrassing media shitstorm.

You bring up another good point, that again puzzles me, kinda, in how it dictated their approach. Yes, when Halo 1/2/3 blah blah was shown, and then when those same games shipped, we could see what changed from conception to delivery. And more often than not, it was in a negative. Feature A was demo'd, but feature A was first on the chopping block.

Here's my point: HAVEN'T WE LEARNED OUR LESSON? After one or two games, isn't it NOW a mature sensible take that ANYTIME a demo is created, to not take it at as set in stone? Why should that one emotional problem we as gamers have with 'oh, you robbed me of my expectations' prevent a game company from ever showing their own hopes and dreams? Granted I'm talking in measures... an FPS demo'd that turns into a RTS game would be a surprise. But showing troop phalanxes and then not seeing it in game... really? That's the deal-breaker? It almost feels like Bungie would have to go to the lengths of creating a Bungie Labs wing where they can willy nilly show each and ever fevered dream they come up with, with no expectations of it appearing in any damn game because folks can't take a chill pill! The 'embarrassing media shitstorm' should be met with 'Well, that's how gaming dev goes. You shoot for the moon and then pull back until it's something manageable and shippable - and thank you for spending the last 7 years working on this until it was shippable and dammit I'm still having fun.'

And yes, I'll head you off at the pass: the above is a pipe-dream. Gamers mature and sensible? Pish posh!

The bottom line is I'm looking forward to hearing about/seeing this game. It hasn't happened yet. I'm a patient man though, I ain't going anywhere.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Yep, and my only issue is that the former is a fireworks media event (that however dishonest as you label it, is a blood-pumping extravaganza), the latter is not. And the 'Bungie' that's lodged in the back of my head would've been upfront about it.

- M

Do you think Bungie is the first developer to think of this? Why hasn't this already been done? You gotta think about implementation. You can wish for things all you want, but unless they can actually be fun there's no sense.

You're talking gibberish. I don't care if Bungie isn't the first one to think of it. I don't care why it hasn't already been done. I don't care about implementation. I was speculating and expounding on something that got me excited about this (currently) vaporware of a game. It was a fun moment to speculate on something that could be fun.

Your Annette Benning to my Kevin Spacey. I'm getting drunk and romantic and charged up to pile into you, you start to complain about spilling wine on the sofa.

Oy vey!

- M

I give Bungie props for peeking out of their comfort zone during this whole new marketing mission of theirs. The post-mortem on all this (the real post-mortem, not any manufactured spin) will be very interesting to read about in a few years.

The bottom line is I'm looking forward to hearing about/seeing this game. It hasn't happened yet. I'm a patient man though, I ain't going anywhere.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Right. The game industry has grown and gotten more competitive since 1999. I think that as Bungie has gotten more ambitious, they've gotten more cautious, too, at least in terms of setting expectations. They're avoiding setting a trap for themselves.

A related point: I get this feeling that one goal for the mature Bungie is smart project management. Specifically, figuring out how to achieve their visions while retaining and not crushing the souls of the talented people they've attracted, in part by allowing them to have lives outside of their work. That's quite the hat trick in an industry that's infamous for grueling schedules.

As Cody said right at the end, it only really got interesting when I came on board. ;-) Before that it was like being forced to attend an economics lecture and two TA's were debating supply-side vs kenyesian.

"Ass kissers, the lot of them!"

Now that's an entrance. :)

You can claim the Halo reveals were fake at their core, but what they were *not* was imprecise setters of 'tone'.

I definitely appreciate that argument, but I'm saying the process of creating each of those demonstrations was also a pretty big timesink that may have been better spent actually working on real game mechanics rather than what amounted to an internal goal-setter. One could question whether the reveals created even more drive to push further and create a better final product than they would have otherwise, but who knows? It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

Down the line, after release, there was always that point where they declassified the insanity that went on behind the scenes during the development process and we found they were NOWHERE NEAR the level of progress that the reveals implied, which would have been a major letdown if the public didn't already have the game in their grubby little hands by then. With the current size of the development team and all the leaks these days, I actually wonder if Bungie could have pulled off another "fake it 'til you make it" demo without facing down an embarrassing media shitstorm.

I give Bungie props for peeking out of their comfort zone during this whole new marketing mission of theirs. The post-mortem on all this (the real post-mortem, not any manufactured spin) will be very interesting to read about in a few years.

The bottom line is I'm looking forward to hearing about/seeing this game. It hasn't happened yet. I'm a patient man though, I ain't going anywhere.

I hear that. I'm sure there will be some interesting backstory to this whole piece. I'd wager that Bungie found themselves in an all too familiar situation, pressured to make a public entrance at a point where they weren't quite ready, and simply made a tough call: to repeat past mistakes by spending valuable resources on producing a dishonest bombshell demonstration, or gather genuine materials from their current build and just show the world a bit of what they're actually working on. I guess time will tell.

Hell, you could even argue the portal gun broke Portal 2!

Haha, really? I'd like to hear that one.

The fact that I have to battle to get this emotionally satisfying thought out while I'm surrounded by two game nerds as they try to inject 'oh, but how would that work if I'm in Hong Kong and my BFF is in London?? DERP!?" and is any surprise now that my crotch looks like a bird's nest with two eggs and a worm looking to leave?

Do you think Bungie is the first developer to think of this? Why hasn't this already been done? You gotta think about implementation. You can wish for things all you want, but unless they can actually be fun there's no sense.

It's like the Portal Gun in Half Life. So many people want it, and you think it's cool. But it's not. Believe me, I know. It breaks the game. Place a portal way up on a building, and now you can one shot kill enemies by placing the other portal under them. It just breaks the game by being totally dominating and easy. Movement through levels is essentially unrestricted, so level design becomes difficult, if not outright impossible for an action game.

Hell, you could even argue the portal gun broke Portal 2!

I find it difficult to believe that the video we got wasn't specifically requested by the publisher, which is why we got the high-concept-art video we did, and why the talk at GDC was a worldbuilding one with plenty of pretty pictures and concepts/player-silhouette talk, rather than actual "content".

I'd love a mini in-engine movie as much as the next guy... I wonder how likely that is... it's not something I've had to be a part of yet.

I don't disagree, I don't think that changes any of my points. I wouldn't even be surprised if Acitivion asked Bungie "When do you think the game will be done", "Oh I don't know, about a year", "Cool can you show something of it then?" I'm sure there may have been more pressure than that, but it seems like Bungie had a lot more say on when the game is going to be released and other details than with Microsoft.

I'd love a mini in-engine movie as much as the next guy... I wonder how likely that is... it's not something I've had to be a part of yet.