Cody asked me to bookmark his promise.

I have a few weeks left before the store hits…

Where'd you get that cool cape? Oh I bought it with real money. Oh. Cool story bro.

Except they're selling emotes, not capes.

Ah, technicalities....

To Cody's point: yes, I think the original sell is that we'd each be a unique snowflake, with wildly differing play styles, looks, and abilities based on the unique gear we found. In general, I think this actually holds up pretty well.

Unique gear (as a form of identity) doesn't really exist around here....we pretty much converge on (obsess over) getting the best gear. The internet knows all, so we do too. And we don't stop until we get all we know about. Exceptions are things some people can't actually do (light house) and I think that stuff serves as a nice badge of honor for those that can.

To me, dance emotes and the like just allows me to choose my own stupidity. Hence my opinion: no harm no foul.

Errr, yes, disgusted is a bit strong. It was just a nice powerful word to end on. Cautious and suspicious are much more realistic, I admit.

But I'm generally cautious. Pricing something as a full release doesn't prevent a developer from releasing duds (See THPS 5), and having micro-transactions doesn't prevent a developer from releasing popular/revered games (see MOBAs and Hearthstone). I'm generally cautious of ANYONE selling me something, but that doesn't mean I cherry pick what is going to raise my ire.

I guess my question for you is: Do you consider TDB and HoW "substantial"? Personally, I don't. In a hypothetical world (all any of us are talking about are hypotheticals at this point), I would prefer a situation where we get a steady tricky of good, free content up until the next major paid release (let's assume that comes 1 year from now).

That's the thing though. I agree that they weren't substantial. TTK is the standard now for substantial. TTK was priced much higher, because substantial content requires more effort. It took a long time to develop. So how are they going to keep that standard with the money they get from this? They can't. Therefore, we will be getting more TDB instead of more TTK. Trickling content never produces the critical mass necessary to really make it worthwhile.

I would prefer that over the year 1 model of waiting up to 6 months with nothing new, paying $20 and getting a small batch of new content that is mixed quality at best. You?

I would rather pay 40 or more dollars every six months to get something on the level of TTK.

Specifically this:

So how are they going to keep that standard with the money they get from this?

I don't know how they're going to keep the standard with the money they get from this, BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH MONEY THEY'LL GET FROM THIS. They MAY get a ton more money, they MAY get less. If they get less, then I would understand if the quality suffered. But until we establish that, you're merely making assumptions about a business you're not involved in ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

No harm in silliness. I can spare a dollar or two every so often for a funny little dance move or something else that makes me smile.

I went into this game expecting to pay for something every few months, and I assumed all along that this was coming. Do I care about it? Nope. Still having buckets of fun with friends, and look forward to more.

CC

I'm one of the first to admit that words are a horrid and inaccurate way to communicate ideas, but sadly it's the option we've all got.

*Points*

*Dances*

*Sits down*

We're definitely the most intelligent and informed forum in the Destiny/Halo fanbase--maybe even the entire Internet. Our maturity may slip a bit; from the fun and silly to the childish and jerk-ass--I've definitely bitten too much out of the asshole tree--but I apologize when I'm wrong and I don't argue anymore if I know my peer is right. Everyone else here is a much better example of that than I am, which is even better.

I mean, Reddit, B.Net, the Halo Forum, virtually every other place out there, it's just rancid wastes of existence with vocabulary no more sophisticated than just the N-word, the F-(other F)word and illiterate shit. Like, actual shit.

Maybe it's because a majority of us are hunched and crusty and bitter (ah ah ah, no fist or cane shaking inside the house!) and are raised from a better and more respectful, and--Jesus, let's face it--more intelligent generation, or maybe it's because new users either assimilate or just head off to pits of hate, but this place rocks.

It fucking rocks.

HBO's been up for what, like 15 years? It may have down time--when there's nothing to really talk about--just like this one will.

But it stays up because(other than dedication) is that it remains simple and...well...pure.

TL;DR--This. Literally this.

Argue slippery slopes all you want, but if the game suffers for micro-transactions, then micro-transactions likely won't survive. If the community benefits from them instead, then I consider complaints limited on a scale of merit. But you don't harm a consumer by providing them additional choices, benefits, or expanded services that they (in the royal they) have been asking for.

This is historically false. Look at Call of Duty, where it started with cosmetic microtransactions, and where it is now. They currently hurt the franchise, but they aren't going anywhere.

Terrible example. Like, laughably bad example.

You do know that there are three developers that make Call of Duty, right?

Treyarch had the Cosmetic microtransactions (weapon skins) back in Black Ops 2. They gave you no advantage, and Sammy and I supported them by buying quite a few of those skins.

In Black Ops 3, they still have cosmetic microtransactions, but have also been able to give players a Paint Shop, where they can fully customize all of their weapons and tools for free, with 64 art layers per side (192 total layers) on each of their items. Not only that, but they clearly spent every cent wisely, since the game is looking to be pretty huge in ambition, scope, and scale on a level that the other two development teams struggle to keep up with (Infinity Ward and Sledgehammer had the non-cosmetic microtransactions, and their playerbases scurried off in droves).

I generally hate Call of Duty games, but Treyarch always gets them right, and they are the only team that has been pushing the product forward, without making people feel that they need to spend more money to keep up. I went ahead and not only ordered the collector's edition, but will probably also buy some skins, because they went through the trouble of making sure we get a Theater mode (which the other devs gave up on).

Plus, even though I don't play Call of Duty games for the multiplayer, I'm not exactly bad at this one:

So yeah, that "example" only further supports the good things that players get from Microtransactions.

And that's without even mentioning the four-player campaign, the four-player Zombies mode, eSports tools, and tons of other features that we got sneak peeks at during the Beta...

I read your words as more extreme (though assumed some of it was hyperbole) and that is fair to say that I did not read your intents. The overarching sensation I gathered when reading your post tinted some of what I read and how I responded. So I'll meet you half way on it, and apologize for the misunderstanding.

I'm with you, and I think we agree on how all this should work for people. I generally try to play like that. I'm not worried for myself. I'm worried for the people out there like my kids who are seeped in the mire of a bajillion kid-geared web games serving up micro-transactions to get ahead in what amounts to intellectual candy bars. My 6yo son wanted to spend $40 for a MONTH subscription to a minecraft PvP server. Said server was free to play, but if you paid you got a ton of perks. That can be worth it for people. But not for months worth of allowance for my 6 year old. Trick is, if he had had his way (i.e. he knew how to pay online) he would have just done it.

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. It truly is a frightening time to be a parent. My first video game system as a child was a N64, and that was bad enough for my parents. I can't imagine dealing with technology now. Cellphones and iPads and laptops and . . . jeez.

People can get exploited, and do, due to these kinds of systems. For the moment I'm trusting Bungie to do the Right Thing™. But that doesn't mean I'm going into it with my eyes shut.

I hope they do, too, and I'm not just assuming they will. I'm just saying that it's too early to tell at this point, and it's not yet time to get outraged and find the pitchforks.

So, let's say bungie does sell motes of light. The situation becomes one of "fun". Bungie says "hey, we realize that gaining experience for your weapons and armor can be a grind. So if you pay us, we'll let you skip that". As a player, if I don't want to pay, I am now essentially a 2nd class citizen. I need to spend more time to get the same out of the game than someone who is paying for motes. If my time is more precious than money (generally true once a certain income level is reached), and the people I play with are paying to skip that time, it becomes in my best interest to do so. Not because micro-transactions are bad or whatever. But because the game is different if I choose not to pay.

This is the same as not buying TTK really, on a much smaller scale, and I think that was cody's big concern. The game, quite possibly, will fracture into two different games with two different playerbases. The "leechers" that don't pay but pony up their time, and the "feeders" that are paying and thus feel entitled to more differentiation than the "leeches" that aren't.

I'll admit; I hadn't looked at in that light. It's an expansion of the LFG "must have Gjallarhorn" problem, in a way. People will naturally look for ways to elevate themselves above others, even if it's just "I had the money to buy this useless video game crap and level faster than you."

Yeah, it's a "my team is better than your team" thing. We're tribal by nature in some ways and people will find ways to split into tribes. The dark side of this kind of thinking is the star-belly-sneeches story that doesn't have a happy ending -- just the dude playing both sides off each other and getting rich.

I'm an armchair indie developer and have been following the rise of free-to-play and micro-transactions. They do, in some cases, make a good amount of money. They often do not have a good impact on the game. But sometimes they do -- and allow some games to exist where they otherwise would not. I think Destiny would be around either way.

I really enjoy destiny. Bungie has done something amazing with this game. But some of the MMO aspects are a little disturbing to me.

I guess logically I can't disagree with that. But I personally play the game how I want to play and ignore the fact that I am "behind" a large percentage of the player base that engages with the game in that way, so I don't give it much thought.

I usually do the daily story and crucible for the Legendary Marks. But if I don't get around to it, it doesn't bother me. I know plenty of people that HAVE to do those, or they're pissed because they "missed out" on 30 Legendary Marks. I just don't play the game the way a lot of folks do.

I'm with you, and I think we agree on how all this should work for people. I generally try to play like that. I'm not worried for myself. I'm worried for the people out there like my kids who are seeped in the mire of a bajillion kid-geared web games serving up micro-transactions to get ahead in what amounts to intellectual candy bars. My 6yo son wanted to spend $40 for a MONTH subscription to a minecraft PvP server. Said server was free to play, but if you paid you got a ton of perks. That can be worth it for people. But not for months worth of allowance for my 6 year old. Trick is, if he had had his way (i.e. he knew how to pay online) he would have just done it.

People can get exploited, and do, due to these kinds of systems. For the moment I'm trusting Bungie to do the Right Thing™. But that doesn't mean I'm going into it with my eyes shut.

I would actually point to this thread to show how good our community is. A very divisive issue is being discussed with (for the most part) a lot of civility and very few personal insults. I haven't looked yet (and probably won't), but go to the reddit or B.net forums, or Polygon or Kotaku comments, and I'll pretty much guarantee it's going to be awful.

So, let's say bungie does sell motes of light. The situation becomes one of "fun". Bungie says "hey, we realize that gaining experience for your weapons and armor can be a grind. So if you pay us, we'll let you skip that". As a player, if I don't want to pay, I am now essentially a 2nd class citizen. I need to spend more time to get the same out of the game than someone who is paying for motes. If my time is more precious than money (generally true once a certain income level is reached), and the people I play with are paying to skip that time, it becomes in my best interest to do so. Not because micro-transactions are bad or whatever. But because the game is different if I choose not to pay.

This is the same as not buying TTK really, on a much smaller scale, and I think that was cody's big concern. The game, quite possibly, will fracture into two different games with two different playerbases. The "leechers" that don't pay but pony up their time, and the "feeders" that are paying and thus feel entitled to more differentiation than the "leeches" that aren't.

I'll admit; I hadn't looked at in that light. It's an expansion of the LFG "must have Gjallarhorn" problem, in a way. People will naturally look for ways to elevate themselves above others, even if it's just "I had the money to buy this useless video game crap and level faster than you."

I really enjoy destiny. Bungie has done something amazing with this game. But some of the MMO aspects are a little disturbing to me.

I guess logically I can't disagree with that. But I personally play the game how I want to play and ignore the fact that I am "behind" a large percentage of the player base that engages with the game in that way, so I don't give it much thought.

I usually do the daily story and crucible for the Legendary Marks. But if I don't get around to it, it doesn't bother me. I know plenty of people that HAVE to do those, or they're pissed because they "missed out" on 30 Legendary Marks. I just don't play the game the way a lot of folks do.

This isn't a huge problem right now because everyone is a paying customer. This distinction will only get worse, and fast, if the system goes free to play.

Are they? How many maps that started out paid attached to The Dark Below and House of Wolves and the Sony Play Station are now free for everyone? Something like 9 right? People who didn't buy The Dark Below and House of Wolves got new public events and new armor and weapon models and bug fixes and public events. And they didn't get to play new missions or raids. They didn't get access Raid specific items like guns, shaders, ships.

The game has been split for a while now, really. The best we can hope for is the additional income from the cosmetic items really does let Bungie deliver neat bits of new content while they also work on large, impressive paid updates like The Taken King. If I can get quality new content inbetween the paid releases without personally having to spend a dime I'll certainly take it!

Yep, you're absolutely right that things are splintered right now. When TTK came out I remember a few different people coming onto the boards complaining that suddenly they couldn't do a bunch of things they could do before. They all got shouted down and told "hey, but the expansion, it's worth the money and you'll be happy!" i.e. just pony up and it will all be good. Pay and your problems will be over.

I mean, it's already a thing with the DLC as a larger lump-sum transaction. This can turn into the same thing. It isn't now. But it could.

From a business sense this kind of audience is a goldmine. We've got red bull doing promo codes. I'm sure there will be others. This is why facebook, twitter, instagram, etc valued for billions of dollars. Because they have a huge audience. So yeah, I get that someone in the food chain there at Bungie wants to use it to make money.

But let's be realistic about it. That's what this is. It's about making money. A tangential goal is to make the game better with micro-transactions by using that money (I'm sure after a bunch of people get their cut) to keep the live team going well. I hope they can make it a win-win for everyone -- fun for us and they make money. I have my hopes and concerns. We'll see what happens.

Seriously, there are no hard feelings on my end. We happen to disagree about the implications of this. That's fine. Good debate is what we're here for (at least partly).

I can see what you were getting at, now that you've clarified. And again, that's what discussion is about. I didn't come off well in my first reply either, and I'm not typically very articulate to begin with.

I'm generally very much against what most would consider "shitty business practices" like console exclusives, pre-order bonuses, pay-to-win items, basically any mobile "you're out of lives for the day, it's only $0.99 for five more!" type things. This just doesn't equate to any of that in my mind. It's just a simple, "Here are some fun/silly items you might enjoy for a buck." If you don't want them, that's fine. It's not anything significant that you'll miss out on, and it's not going to have any negative effect for you if you don't buy them.

The pricing will ultimately determine the success of this, I think. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how this pans out.