So, how is it?

So... servers have been up for a little while, any of you PS4ians, PS4ers, PS4ites, PS4 guardians on it?

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So... servers have been up for a little while, any of you PS4ians, PS4ers, PS4ites, PS4 guardians on it?

They've been up a little over 20 minutes. Pretty sure anyone playing it isn't going to be stepping away for at least an hour... Assuming they aren't still trying to squeeze into the server door.
That said, I'll stream some later, if you want. :v

In the meantime, check out this awesome free co-op mode coming to Titanfall 2!

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Is the artillery titan new?

I was playing a lot of Titanfall 2 while I was taking care of family medical stuff over the last 3 weeks. I turned some kind of corner and the game really started to click for me. It really is a fun game.

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Rise was one of my favorite maps!

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Titanfall 2 that is. That co-op mode looks like a ton of fun!

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twitch

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Pissed that they nerfed shoulder charge.

Guns feel less impactful.

Cool-downs feel way longer.

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Shoulder charge was the best thing about D1!

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There's now a 90 second cooldown between uses.

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And I say that nerfing shoulder charge is a good thing (especially given the exploit that people found for it, which soured my feelings towards it). I think gunplay should be the focus, with abilities being strategic. If you can run around spamming an ability left and right, especially one that's essentially an auto-targeting infinite-ammo shotgun, then the focus becomes "ability countering", which will be especially difficult to do in D2 with the Special weapons being far less viable. Seriously, how could you counter it consistently?

We'll have to see, but I think it's a good change. People who used it as a crutch will have to git gud.

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Seriously, how could you counter it consistently?

git gud.

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Seriously, how could you counter it consistently?

git gud.

I should have clarified "How could you counter it consistently if you're not a Warlock?" Tanking shoulder charges with the Ram and beating them to death was always fun. ;)

Can't wait to see what's changed for Warlocks. From what I've seen, I likely won't be crying about it as much as the Titans are.

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Seriously, how could you counter it consistently?

git gud.

I should have clarified "How could you counter it consistently if you're not a Warlock?" Tanking shoulder charges with the Ram and beating them to death was always fun. ;)

Can't wait to see what's changed for Warlocks. From what I've seen, I likely won't be crying about it as much as the Titans are.

Hope you're not into voidwalkers.

I've never heard Beorn curse so much.

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There's now a 90 second cooldown between uses.

It's those damn MLG people.

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It's like being panic knifed in a CoD game at times.

Makes sense as well. 4v4 arenas, more passive gameplay, etc.

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I will admit, it was definitely fun! But in terms of balance, completely not fair. I am glad they are putting more emphasis on gun-play rather than abilities (button spamming). I guess it depends on why/how you played Destiny 1 that will determine how you like the new changes.

To me they sound great so far! Can't wait to get home and play!

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Pulling off an effective Shoulder charge (in PvP) required

A) A full sprint for two seconds before activation

B) giving up the ability to fire your gun

C) An unaware enemy combatant.

If shoulder charge was so OP, you'd see way more people using it. Last time I checked, Crucible was still chock full of Hunters.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, it's no longer a 1HKO. So it's even MORE useless.

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Pulling off an effective Shoulder charge (in PvP) required

A) A full sprint for two seconds before activation

B) giving up the ability to fire your gun

C) An unaware enemy combatant.

Shoulder Charge glitch

If shoulder charge was so OP, you'd see way more people using it. Last time I checked, Crucible was still chock full of Hunters.

in 3's and Rumble a shoulder charging Titan is probably the single most overpowered subclass in the game right now.

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Pulling off an effective Shoulder charge (in PvP) required

A) A full sprint for two seconds before activation

B) giving up the ability to fire your gun

C) An unaware enemy combatant.

Shoulder Charge glitch

If shoulder charge was so OP, you'd see way more people using it. Last time I checked, Crucible was still chock full of Hunters.

in 3's and Rumble a shoulder charging Titan is probably the single most overpowered subclass in the game right now.

I have a solution for you.

It's called a gun.

You shoot it.

and they die.

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If you are lucky enough to have ammo anyway. Abilities weren't the issue they might be now until they ruined all the weapons and got rid of special ammo.

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If you are lucky enough to have ammo anyway. Abilities weren't the issue they might be now until they ruined all the weapons and got rid of special ammo.

True. I haven't played crucible much at all since that change, but as someone who mains a Striker, I was usually stopped short by hand cannons and auto-rifles just as often as I was by shotguns.

Sidearms work too.

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If you are lucky enough to have ammo anyway. Abilities weren't the issue they might be now until they ruined all the weapons and got rid of special ammo.

True. I haven't played crucible much at all since that change, but as someone who mains a Striker, I was usually stopped short by hand cannons and auto-rifles just as often as I was by shotguns.

Sidearms work too.

The abilities of a striker are just too good with the current meta. Hand cannons can still stop someone running at you in a straight line.. but most people are not that bad at the game.

The current Meta is pretty much Anti-Fun at the moment.

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The current Meta is pretty much Anti-Fun at the moment.

Yup.

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I don't give a rat's ass about PvP in Destiny anymore, but when "Balance" changes carry over to the PvE side of things (as it did with the health regen change- thanks, Bladedancers) I'm going to start up a storm.

The Shoulder charge change significantly reduces the Striker's PvE toolset, and I'm mad about it.

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I don't give a rat's ass about PvP in Destiny anymore, but when "Balance" changes carry over to the PvE side of things

One could say the whole thing with moving all the specials to the heavy and giving you two primaries is based on the same thing. Were special weapons ever a problem in PvE?

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Were special weapons ever a problem in PvE?

I think that the fact that a lot of raid challenges required very specific special weapons in order to complete them would mean that they were a problem. Probably not the problem you are talking about though.

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I don't give a rat's ass about PvP in Destiny anymore, but when "Balance" changes carry over to the PvE side of things

One could say the whole thing with moving all the specials to the heavy and giving you two primaries is based on the same thing. Were special weapons ever a problem in PvE?

They used to be fun to use. Which definitely seems like something Bingle considers a problem.

Also, PvP balancing has been negatively impacting PvE play since the first patch in Destiny. Can't really be surprised anymore.

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If you are lucky enough to have ammo anyway. Abilities weren't the issue they might be now until they ruined all the weapons and got rid of special ammo.

Yes, this is true.

That's why the crucible has gotten less and less interesting as time goes on… while the balance might not have been perfect, the sheer number of things at your disposal and variety made Pre-TTK PvP really fun.

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Just last night, a Titan sprinted up to me, stopped, fired a shotgun shell(which only damaged me partially), and then activated Shoulder Charge from a stationary position.

Fuck Shoulder Charge! Bungie should've taken out the entire Titan existence, much less the Striker subclass.

Not like you'd really have to run anywhere either--a Striker is the only subclass in the entire game that takes a single melee to kill a Guardian, regardless of shield strength.

So if they're running, one hit with Shoulder Charge.
If they're standing still, one hit with Storm Fist. Or just Shoulder Charge while they're standing still.
If they're sliding, let's just cancel the momentum-stopping slide—with a Shoulder Charge. Out of a slide.
If they're out of range, skate across the map with Twilight Garrison, do the non-fatal Shoulder Charge, follow it up with the real Shoulder Charge.

I'm glad to hear they nerfed that crap--they're about 4 and a half years too late (and it still exists), but Bungie's(eventually) learning.

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Just last night, a Titan sprinted up to me, stopped, fired a shotgun shell(which only damaged me partially), and then activated Shoulder Charge from a stationary position.

I'm sure that actually happened. Yep. Not made up at all. Not at all fabricated in any way. Totally, 100% true.

Fuck Shoulder Charge! Bungie should've taken out the entire Titan existence, much less the Striker subclass.

You misspelled Hunter. and Gunslinger.

Anyway, If they did do that, what would be the point? Crucible would look the same since 90% of players run other classes anyway. Since, ya know, they're stronger.

Not like you'd really have to run anywhere either--a Striker is the only subclass in the entire game that takes a single melee to kill a Guardian, regardless of shield strength.

git gud.

So if they're running, one hit with Shoulder Charge.
If they're standing still, one hit with Storm Fist. Or just Shoulder Charge while they're standing still.
If they're sliding, let's just cancel the momentum-stopping slide—with a Shoulder Charge. Out of a slide.
If they're out of range, skate across the map with Twilight Garrison, do the non-fatal Shoulder Charge, follow it up with the real Shoulder Charge.

I made a handy guide for some other guy in this thread for how to deal with this problem. You might find it useful.

I'm glad to hear they nerfed that crap--they're about 4 and a half years too late (and it still exists), but Bungie's(eventually) learning.

lol

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I mean yeah, I probably did make it up. It's not like someone already posted a reply proving you wrong before you even made the argument.

Anyway, If they did do that, what would be the point? Crucible would look the same since 90% of players run other classes anyway. Since, ya know, they're stronger.

Dear sweet Jesus Christ on house arrest, you did not just say that.

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=55186

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=130252

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=128195

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=128135

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj5QF1Fzbsg

All that is just off the top of my head, in DBO ALONE.

I don't even have time to comb through all the stuff on YouTube.

I'll let you handle that part.

Then I laughed until my throat was dry about your comment with Gunslingers. Gunslingers!? MAYBE Tripmine Grenades. What else? If you had at least said Stormcaller or Nightstalker, I would've actually taken you seriously. If it wasn't for Golden Gun, people would not even know that class even exists. Incineration Grenades only kill if the target is literally on top of it, Swarm is straight up laughable, Throwing Knife only kills if the target's already hurt, and every single perk on the tree is either for Golden Gun or the lame abilities.

Then you're telling me to git gud--sweetheart, you can't brag about your multiplayer stats, then whine about Titans being weakest—and then a Titan is your goddamn main. And your new backup. That's like trying to steal someone else's cake on top of your own, then trying to eat and penetrate them both simultaneously.

Oh, and here's your 90%--also from last night.

This is just a classic case of you just wanting it all. You got it in Destiny 1 (apparently without even realizing it), and you want to continue getting everything you want in D2.

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I forgot this one, still makes me smile.

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Then I laughed until my throat was dry about your comment with Gunslingers. Gunslingers!? MAYBE Tripmine Grenades. What else? If you had at least said Stormcaller or Nightstalker, I would've actually taken you seriously. If it wasn't for Golden Gun, people would not even know that class even exists. Incineration Grenades only kill if the target is literally on top of it, Swarm is straight up laughable, Throwing Knife only kills if the target's already hurt, and every single perk on the tree is either for Golden Gun or the lame abilities.

Really? Really?

The ENTIRE hunter class is BUILT around dominating in PvP. Golden Gun, Arc-blade, Combustion, Razor's Edge, Throwing knives, BURNING throwing knives, Blink, Blink Strike, Shadowstep, Skip grenades, Tripmines, Gunslinger's Trance, Chain of Woe, Backstab, Quickdraw-

And don't even get me started on the exotics.

It's to the point where if a hunter fails to get a triple kill (or more) with his/her super, it reflects badly on the hunter; if a Titan gets more than two kills with his super, the other team is pretty much entirely at fault. That's a problem.

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Then I laughed until my throat was dry about your comment with Gunslingers. Gunslingers!? MAYBE Tripmine Grenades. What else? If you had at least said Stormcaller or Nightstalker, I would've actually taken you seriously. If it wasn't for Golden Gun, people would not even know that class even exists. Incineration Grenades only kill if the target is literally on top of it, Swarm is straight up laughable, Throwing Knife only kills if the target's already hurt, and every single perk on the tree is either for Golden Gun or the lame abilities.

Really? Really?

[image]

The ENTIRE hunter class is BUILT around dominating in PvP.

Implying that Titans aren't, with their infinite 1HK Shoulder charge, magnetic grenades, No-skill Supers that kill around corners, and grenades (with status effects even) that last way too long...

And don't even get me started on the exotics.

Yeah, like Armamentarium, Twilight Garrison, Helm of St.14, Helm of Inmost Light, and Mk.44 Stand asides. Clearly all PvE exotics useless elsewhere.

It's to the point where if a hunter fails to get a triple kill (or more) with his/her super, it reflects badly on the hunter; if a Titan gets more than two kills with his super, the other team is pretty much entirely at fault. That's a problem.

Yeah, that's why Sunbreakers are the ones that got nerfed, and Golden Gun had to be buffed, right? Heck, to quote Bungie, the nerf was done in order to "Give other players a glimmer of hope standing against a Solar Titan in PvP"... Doesn't sound like the poor defenseless Titans that I hear so much about from you...

As a vastly superior Warlock, I'm not a part of this whole "my class sucks more" Titan vs. Hunter crap that you and Morpheus have going on, but seriously man, I'm with Morpheus on this one. A skilled hunter can be a huge pain in PvP, yeah. But even the dumbest Titan has a lot of handholding on his way to victory. From Titan skating to the permanent shoulder charge glitch, and the most throw-and-forget grenades (and let's not even talk about the Fist of Panic), they thrive in PvP.

According to actual non-hyperbolic DT stats, Titans make up 33.0% of crucible players, Hunters are 34.1%, and Warlocks are the rarest, with a 32.9% presence, so your 90% stat is poop as well.

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All I know is I main a Titan, and I do noticeably better in PvP with my Hunter.

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All I know is I main a Titan, and I do noticeably better in PvP with my Hunter.

My success with the 3 classes is wildly inconsistent, and I can't put my finger on why that is. Different moods from 1 day to the next, maybe?
I tend to be hyper-aggressive when I play, and that often clicks best with my voidwalker. I'll lob axion bolts into a cluster of enemies as I'm rushing in, land a melee or two, and the "bloom" perk takes care of the rest. I feel the most at home with the Warlock's melee (I very rarely have those "how did I miss him?" moments like I do with the other classes), and the combination of blink/energy drain/high armour stats/voidfang vestments all work extremely well with my suicidally aggressive play style.

And yet, my very best games have all been on my Titan, if memory serves. I don't think I've ever gotten more than 30 kills in a control match with the other classes, but I've done it with my Striker several times. But last I checked, my career K/D and W/L stats with my Titan are the lowest of my 3 characters. And that lines up with my impression: the Titan is either my best or worst class, depending on the match.

Hunters are strange for me, because they don't in theory click with my playstyle so well. But I've gone to the lighthouse more times with my hunter than the other classes, so who knows :-/

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Darndest thing! I was going through my Game DVR backlog on my Xbox one, and you wouldn't believe what I just found from about two weeks ago!

Right here!

Now ain't that somethin'!

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But, that shows the kill as the shotgun. you even crop in to it. Wouldn't it show shoulder charge if he shot first? also, it never seems like he stands still?

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But, that shows the kill as the shotgun. you even crop in to it. Wouldn't it show shoulder charge if he shot first? also, it never seems like he stands still?

That's actually the point--the guy was (maybe) running, stopped and fired a shell(meaning he came out of sprint), and instantly followed it up with a shoulder charge, without having to run again. So even if that shotgun did nothing, the follow-up shoulder charge(again, standing still) would've finished me off.

That's why I super-slowed it down the second time—to show the entire Shoulder Charge animation, right after killing me with the shotgun. He had two one-hit kill methods with him and only one of them was earned legitimately.

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But, that shows the kill as the shotgun. you even crop in to it. Wouldn't it show shoulder charge if he shot first? also, it never seems like he stands still?

That's actually the point--the guy was (maybe) running, stopped and fired a shell(meaning he came out of sprint), and instantly followed it up with a shoulder charge, without having to run again. So even if that shotgun did nothing, the follow-up shoulder charge(again, standing still) would've finished me off.

Oh, OK. I got confused based on your initial description:

Just last night, a Titan sprinted up to me, stopped, fired a shotgun shell(which only damaged me partially), and then activated Shoulder Charge from a stationary position.

So, he totally killed you with the shotgun, and then also shoulder-charged into your corpse needlessly. I still don't see the standing still part. I mean, even just the fact that you need a "super-slow" would suggest that no standing still happened, right?

That's why I super-slowed it down the second time—to show the entire Shoulder Charge animation, right after killing me with the shotgun. He had two one-hit kill methods with him and only one of them was earned legitimately.

I mean look I don't at all agree that Titans are under-powered in Crucible, but I'm having a hard time following your video. Maybe we can talk about the absurd sholder charge lock on and vertical movement?

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Just last night, a Titan sprinted up to me, stopped, fired a shotgun shell(which only damaged me partially), and then activated Shoulder Charge from a stationary position.

So, he totally killed you with the shotgun, and then also shoulder-charged into your corpse needlessly. I still don't see the standing still part. I mean, even just the fact that you need a "super-slow" would suggest that no standing still happened, right?

While I agree that his description does not match the video, it is odd that the sprint speed wasn't interrupted by the firing of the shotgun. I think that was his point in posting it.

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Listen to RC, this is what I'm talking about.

Whether he's standing still or walking forward or what the hell ever, the rest of you are glossing over the elephant in the room--the fact that after ceasing to sprint and firing the shotgun he did not have to sprint another 1.5 to 2 seconds to activate a shoulder charge; he activated a shoulder charge while NOT SPRINTING.

Get it?

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Listen to RC, this is what I'm talking about.

Whether he's standing still or walking forward or what the hell ever, the rest of you are glossing over the elephant in the room--the fact that after ceasing to sprint and firing the shotgun he did not have to sprint another 1.5 to 2 seconds to activate a shoulder charge; he activated a shoulder charge while NOT SPRINTING.

Get it?

Doesn't look like he was sprinting at all (Before or after the kill.) He jumped in, performed the glitch unoudid pointed out a few weeks ago, which involves starting sprint, shoot, slide, melee... then jumped away. This is a perfect example of that glitch - it doesn't make the Striker totally overpowered, since most players have no clue how to do this. It's like BXR, in a way. (Well, more people could do BXR than this glitch, I'd say.)

Whatever - it's a glitch, and I'd guess it would have been patched if we weren't near the EOL of D1. It's not an example of an overpowered subclass.

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Doesn't look like he was sprinting at all (Before or after the kill.) He jumped in, performed the glitch unoudid pointed out a few weeks ago, which involves starting sprint, shoot, slide, melee... then jumped away. This is a perfect example of that glitch - it doesn't make the Striker totally overpowered, since most players have no clue how to do this. It's like BXR, in a way. (Well, more people could do BXR than this glitch, I'd say.)

Excellent explanation.

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You can tell that the titan wasn't moving from the frames. and some of the pixels.

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Whether he's standing still or walking around, he's NOT SPRINTING.

That is the key emphasis here--Shoulder Charge from a NOT SPRINTING position.

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Just last night, a Titan sprinted up to me, stopped, fired a shotgun shell(which only damaged me partially), and then activated Shoulder Charge from a stationary position.

The emphasis placed in that quote was explicitly put there by you.

The Titan in your clip was not stationary.

He did not kill (or even harm) you with shoulder charge.

You would have been killed by literally any class attempting to do the same thing in that clip.

When you are able to calm down admit that you were spouting outlandish falsehoods, let me know, and maybe we can talk.

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This was actually why I found this situation so funny! That post on the 18th--this clip isn't even the one I was talking about back then. That was a separate game on Pantheon!

I'm glad you remembered to use that quote on me, because there's more to it. Notice that I also said the shotgun only damaged me partially. That obviously wasn't the case in this video. I got my face melted off in this one. I just found it amazing that I made a complaint which of course no one believed, and didn't think to save it, then found ANOTHER one where almost the exact same thing happened in a repeat occurrence.

That means multiple people know how to use it, and have integrated it into their playstyle.

POST EDIT: Cyber, it's not like you've been talking in the first place. So far, everything you said is either "I don't believe you" or the opposite of whatever I say. I haven't seen any valid points or, say, video proof.

Claude, you do have a point. That is indeed a glitch— I mean, it's a glitch only Titans can use, but still a glitch. But shoulder charge is a single snowflake drifting across the air and barely tapping the minor tip of an enormous, roided out, horribly unfair iceberg.

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Claude, you do have a point. That is indeed a glitch— I mean, it's a glitch only Titans can use, but still a glitch. But shoulder charge is a single snowflake drifting across the air and barely tapping the minor tip of an enormous, roided out, horribly unfair iceberg.

Heh - I get FAR more bent out of shape by Warlocks that seem to absorb any punishment I mete out, and get back to full health by putting a love tap on my shoulder. (From 150 feet away.) If we're gonna talk about overpowered classes, let's start there. :)

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We're out and proud, no doubt about that. XD

That's the difference between Warlocks and Titans. We can smell our own. ;-)

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Where nobody ever drops ammo and Storm Fist one shots an undamaged guardian.

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Now my modem is on fire and playing Mozart.

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Where nobody ever drops ammo and Storm Fist one shots an undamaged guardian.

The ammo thing isn't that bad anymore, except in Strikes and Raids; I'm combating it with the Miasma Gloves(thank god), and I'm finding better places to synth.

But for Storm Fist, I sent you a copy--it's the one with the three people standing on a rock, facing away from the camera. It should have the word 'Destiny' and the prototype for a fidget spinner underneath. Either Overload or Discharge.

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Not like you'd really have to run anywhere either--a Striker is the only subclass in the entire game that takes a single melee to kill a Guardian, regardless of shield strength.

People always complain that warlocks have the strongest melee in the game when Titans should. Just saying...

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Warlocks do have insane range on their melees(even more so with certain treesets) but it still takes 2 or 3 melees to kill one guy.

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Strongest isn't inherently a measure of damage dealt.

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Pissed that they nerfed shoulder charge.

Guns feel less impactful.

Cool-downs feel way longer.

Do you mean the gun feel is less impactful, or the damage is less impactful due to the longer time to kill?

Personally, I'm totally down with slower kills and cool downs. Remember when we all started playing D1 and everyone was complaining "what killed me? wtf? How did I die? omg supers everywhere spam? too much one shot kill" blablablabla you get it.

Halo was fun because it wasn't easy. Call of Duty is popular because the noobiest dumdum idiot can get some leet kills. Destiny 1 PvP was closer to Call of Duty than it was to Halo. Sounds like play style D2 is moving back to Halo of old...which is A-O-K by me.

[image]

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Enemies feel spongier and weapons sound more Plink-Plink-Plink instead of Bang-Bang-Bang

The longer cool downs mean you cant throw grenades as often (naturally) which makes firefights way more monotonous. Your super also charges way slower.

I played some crucible after that post. I didn't like it any better than D1 crucible, which isn't very fun( as other people in this thread have pointed out)

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I feel like Call of Duty multiplayer is actually notable for how few kills bad players get. I've never played a game in which skilled players can dominate so hard — the entire multiplayer setup is a massive snowball mechanic.

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Pissed that they nerfed shoulder charge.

Guns feel less impactful.

Cool-downs feel way longer.

Agree with the lower 2 points, can't speak to shoulder charge. TTK is lower. 2-3 "trash" cabal on a full clip of a HK, 4-5 shots each. I might just be a bad shot, but almost killing guys was a thing in the tower.

I really liked the full auto scout in the energy category they gave me.

The exotic I tried was an arc sub-machinegun. It had the auto-reload on kill (I think) which was very nice, but felt like an auto-rifle mostly, and had short range.

I didn't love the solar warlock ability, though it might have just been disorienting the 2-3 times I used it. I really liked the new nova bomb better. Seemed to take a long time to charge up though.

I'm a fusion rifle guy, mixed feelings that my fusion was relegated to heavy. I hope they pack a bit more punch now, though on the mini-bosses they felt roughly the same. I think they can fit there, but may be a little under-powered. hard to tell for sure tho.

I expect we're also resetting a little and giving time in the next year or two to ramp back up some.

Seemed like crisper graphics and more attention to detail. More objects around, I like the new menuing changes.

impressed by the new "scoping" abilities that the psions displayed, fun and good mechanic.

Great lunch break, back to work until this evening. =)

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I haven't seen the game.

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All gear is showing as Legendary.

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dary.

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Pissed that they nerfed shoulder charge.

Guns feel less impactful.

Cool-downs feel way longer.

Game appears to be much more tactical and less running around spamming randomness.

Yeah, maybe the guns feel a little less impactful, but the longer engagements make for a much more satisfying feeling when you're in the zone.

I like the feeling of carefully considering when I'm going to use a grenade rather than just chucking one and ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ing if it doesn't hit anything.

Also, providing warlocks with support abilities makes for some interesting teamwork that you don't usually see in PvP.

Anyways, it's pretty awesome feeling and I'm having a lot of fun. If only I wasn't working so much today.

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Yeah, maybe the guns feel a little less impactful, but the longer engagements make for a much more satisfying feeling when you're in the zone.

My only problem with this is everything feels slower, so for the limited time I've played Crucible for every time it felt like it was a satisfying skill exchange due to the longer time to kill there was at least one time where it just felt like I was taking forever to die without much I could do about it.

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My first impression is that the game feels much slower. This might also be due to not having played Destiny in a couple months (after completing the AoT book) and have been playing Titanfall 2 for competitive play.

However, I will qualify that with the fact that playing also feels almost half full. Like you can really tell there are going to be things that make you more powerful in the shipping game. Either through perks in gear/mods or exotic synergies. Abilities recharge really slow and I do consider that a detriment in its current form. Most abilities feel like they were nerfed while supers got buffed, but then the cooldowns are so slow. I can't imagine the cooldowns will stay this slow when it ships.

I've been rolling a Titan and this is what I have to say relative to the sublasses as available:

Sentinel
- The super is a little confusing at first. You have quite a few controls with it. Throwing the shield is on a recharge, and I couldn't figure out how to pick which melee to do, but that may just be a learning curve and having used it about twice. Would benefit from a better tool tip.
- Accidentally activating Ward of Dawn is actually surprisingly easy to do.
- The melee is the focus of this tree. And it seems to work well with the overall synergy. Didn't get a feel for how close friendlies have to be to benefit from the overshield.
- Didn't notice any real change to melee damage, but improved reload speed with the overshield was nice.

Striker
- Fists of Havoc makes for a much more exciting experience. For the D1 subclass with one of the most disappointing supers, the nerf to AoE and making it a roaming/shoulder charging super is great. Could also benefit from an improved tool tip.
- Shoulder charge is now your melee ability, so it works on charges. Seems powerful in PvE, given that it also gains an AoE discharge that helps stagger groups. Obviously limited by the ridiculously low ability recharging.
- Getting grenade energy from using your melee motivates you to use it and getting a second grenade charge as a class perk is nice. But that second charge feels like it takes literally forever.
- The not!Aftermath perk is neat, but I don't know how well the in-air aiming will work. If Helm of Inmost makes a return that could be great for boss supering.

Overall? Everything feels a little under powered. I feel like scout rifles should have larger magazines and both Kinetic and Energy slots need way more reserve ammo than you have given how infrequent ammo drops seem. Also the strike boss will knock your ammo bricks out of the field and you lose that ammo. Which is irksome to say the least.

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As I slowly work my way through the other characters content please note I don't PvP with Hunters or Warlocks much at all in D1 because I generally found it less enjoyable unless I was doing it just for funsies. So, this all comes from running the campaign mission and strike a few times.

Poledancer
- Feels infinitely better to me than Bladedancer ever did, as movement is not as choppy or erratic. The super was nice in that it would hit multiple targets and was much better at group clearing. Overall this feels like a good replacement.
- Grenades feel like throwing firework snappers or like party poppers.
- The Gambler's Dodge/Charged Melee combo works pretty well and is a nice little skilled dance. The available melee triggers on kill, so you reliably get your dodge back.
- Dodging makes you do crazy flips. And felt more effective for changing direction than running.

Gunslinger
- 97 second cool down on the throwing knife is infinitely more irritating when you accidentally throw it because someone killed the guy next to you.
- Chains of Woe is neat in that you have a light support ability for hunters, similar to the Sentinel being able to heal/shield nearby friendlies.
- The six shooter super is neat, but I ended up just saving it to pop all six shots into the boss or a sub-boss. Did not feel like it did reliable enough damage to clear adds. Maybe if it also had Keyhole built in.
- I used Gambler's dodge here and it definitely felt like it allowed me to keep the damage going, but might have been more useful to get more exploding knives.

And indirectly related, the best part of running a Hunter in the D2 Beta: Sunshot. Definitely the stand out of the available exotics. It was great for clearing squishy groups, especially the warhound things. Saved multiple wipes with jumping around and chaining the explosions. It felt a lot like Fatebringer, though I preferred Fatebringer without explosive rounds, this has the same mildly inconsistent feeling I think explosive rounds always gives. Definitely a fun hand cannon though.

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Lets get straight into it, all PvE:

Dawnblade
- Thanks to Korny I performed much better than initially anticipated. I was not super excited for this class pre-Beta, but it probably is the most distinct feeling class, if you play to being airborne as the available tree suggests.
- I didn't notice the cool down as much because I was too busy trying to be Mary Poppins. So that made it more interesting. Your Rift does feel like it takes a long time to refill, though.
- The Icarus Dodge is great, but is on a 10 second cool down outside of super. It provided a little extra mobility that aided in staying alive in some cases I would probably not have floating like a leaf.
- Raining fire down feels great, but it burns out quick and isn't very useful attempting to engage anything at range, it is definitely an in-the-thick sort of super.

Voidwalker
- Drawing Super power to overcharge grenades is fun. Like, really fun. And with how slow supers charge I didn't feel like I was punished too hard for the tactical decision. There is a maximum overcharge that is obvious, but if you keep holding it it does continue to drain your super.
- Apparently hitting crouch while in the air makes you Glide? Did this happen in D1? made me mess up a few times trying to slide as I hit because I hit it too soon. Speaking of sliding, also accidentally used my Rift while trying to slide.
- Having a Melee that reduces the cool down on your Grenade is really one of the most useful things. It made me aggressively use my melee which was nice, but while it makes you feel more empowered the Beta cool downs are still like sludge.
- Novabomb is still Novabomb. It's purpose is the same, though it feels somewhat more destructive. I used Lance in D1, so it's definitely a somewhat different experience. It adjusts course aggressively, and usually to whatever I don't want it to go to. Thankfully it can be Shock-Combo'd and explodes in the air when you shoot it. It is a neat added utility. And pulling energy for my grenade even at full super wasn't a problem because usually I got most of that back if my grenade hit a cluster of adds.

General [Possible rants/rambling]

Art/feel/whatever:
- This is totally still Destiny.
- The art direction continues forward and is familiar while also being more refined. The gear, character, and location designs are all in line and work.
- Nessus is damn pretty and takes the Vex architecture but places it in context and surroundings that make it feel fresh. The flora is probably the best part though. I look forward to exploring it more.
- Gripe number one for me is that Titans feel less 80/20 Armor/Cloth now and the stacked pauldrons do nothing positive for me. I am looking forward to there being armor sets I am more inclined to by their aesthetic, but the same has happened periodically though the life of D1. I did not like The Taken King Titan Vanguard/Crucible sets for example, and immediately moved away from them as soon as I could get the gear. I am hoping that there are some familiar designs brought back periodically, as it would be a shame to lose them fully.
- Not a big fan of the overly sleek Hunter gear, either, but the Vanguard set looks great and feels more like the gear of a warrior scout than a Luge outift with a cape.
- Vanguard for the Warlock is also the better of the sets for my visual taste, and feels very familiar to Vanilla D1. In a good way.

- The music still feels like Destiny, and the sound design is familiar enough without feeling re-used. People who are more technically inclined to audio may disagree, though. I'm more of a visual arts person. The soundtrack also feels generally good. And I know that a lot of people are saying it makes them miss Marty's work even more. I'm still out on that, but I've also greatly enjoyed TTK and RoI soundtracks. I'll wait for the full soundtrack to really judge.
- No McCartney. While the foot tall holographic singer was a neat novelty (and the song isn't as bad as some people make it out to be) it will not be missed. At least not by me.
- Though maybe more pop-rock stuff might benefit Destiny? Maybe we'll never know.

- The game feels good at its core. I think most of my issues will be ironed out with time/the full release. Issues with abilities (nerfing both cooldowns and power for the sake of making a gun-oriented game might work for people who want to have a gun-skill, variable-limited experience, but I don't find that fun) and the PvE ammo economy (already confirmed changed) are high on my list of hopes for the release game.
- I have my curiosities for how gear will actually shake out, and how weapons will be exciting to get over and over. I know it has been said they are working on that, too. I know getting repeats in the Beta leads to an immediate sharding.
- Shaders for everything? I'm anticipating seeing some very ugly Guardians in the wild.

- Weapons are the key focus here though, and some of them feel really good to me. Others not so much. I am enjoying the change to Kinetic/Energy/Power (KEP? can we just call it KEP?) as it allows me more general flexibility. However, PvE definitely feels like it needs larger Power Ammo reserves. We'll see if that has changed.
- Energy weapons have a great punch to them on shields, though some of them feel substantially weaker than the available Kinetic comparisons. The Scout Rifles, for example, feel really different. The Veist one with Arc damage felt good in Crucible, but mostly feels like it shoots marshmallows unless you land a bunch of precision hits in PvE, while the Suros one only has 4 less rounds in the magazine but just feels punchier.
- Speaking of precision hits, if you are not landing them you aren't really doing damage. The values varied, but for example a single round from the Scathelock Auto Rifle did 45 damage, while a single precision hit from the same did 115. The different on the boss is less defined, as is standard for Yellow-bar enemies, but was still around double damage at ideal range.

- Enemies are neat, it feels like a rational evolution of some enemy types.
- The visual changes to shields are highly welcome and both make them more visible and better fit the enemy character.
- Nothing really new with the Vex except they have a Void beam weapon that does sustained fire. Didn't feel very threatening. We'll see what Void Burn does to it. Oh, and Minotaurs have a crit spot. Probably because of how important precision damage is.
- Nessus Fallen are interesting. The new Wretches feel similar to Vandals but are unique enough on their own. Servitor upgrade makes them even more of a threat, as they can provide an immunity shield to multiple targets. I am interested in seeing the character of this new House.

Cabal
- Cabal are totally revamped. Some of the changes seem arbitrary (Psions now do an attack with Void instead of Arc) but there are a lot of neat additions.
- Legionaries have wrist blades that they can melee you with or launch at you as a grenade. They telegraph this attack really obviously. Their weapons appear to all have been replaced with Arc shotguns though. I might have missed regular Slug Rifles, though.
- Phalanxes are substantially less irritating. Their shield still provides immunity, but you can disable it directly, when it is carried or deployed as a wall. The change up to their interactions is pleasant. I don't think I've been shield bashed. But I'll wait for it.
- The new Centurions are more of the same, but they have that new charged Void launcher weapon. They also seem to have that regular grenade launcher thing.
- Colossuses are a neat palette swap. Their missile barrage now does Arc and has an effect similar to Web Mines. Their foosh gun is both less and more irritating to come under fire from than the slug guns they previously used. I am also curious if these weapons will make a return.
- Immolator dudes are easy to deal with, and they trade area denial for being highly explosive. Also, they do have a concussive push attack.
- Gladiators are not interesting to fight. They are just highly aggressive and have a very long melee range.
- Warhounds are a neat swarm enemy. Different from Thralls in that they maintain a generally consistent vertical level even when attacking, but they take a little more effort to headshot because their lateral motion seems to be more aggressive.
- Psions now come with a sniper variety. They telegraph their shots really easily. Their blast attack allows them some area denial (it leaves a damaging Void wall) as well as causing you to break cover by bouncing you into the air. And they have a sprint action where they zoom from point A to B really fast. It appears to be the bright orange vent on their back.
- And then we have that vent: Most of the Cabal have it now and it is a secondary precision hit area. It makes your damage output with a good flank really high on a lot of Cabal and should be used to your advantage.

I am interested in the Farm, and perhaps as the weekend hits full swing I'll be able to organize a stack for Crucible and I might have a more enjoyable experience there.

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- Apparently hitting crouch while in the air makes you Glide? Did this happen in D1? made me mess up a few times trying to slide as I hit because I hit it too soon. Speaking of sliding, also accidentally used my Rift while trying to slide.

I really don't like having that ability activated with "hold crouch." I had the opposite problem where I would try to run up to a strategic position to drop a rift or a Titan shield wall and slide right past where I wanted to stop and straight into the enemy team. I guess if I can get the hang of judging how far I'll slide before the support ability activates, I can use it to my advantage, but for now it's a bit frustrating.

- No McCartney. While the foot tall holographic singer was a neat novelty (and the song isn't as bad as some people make it out to be) it will not be missed. At least not by me.

He's not totally gone. ;) During the intro story mission, if you hang out by the door that would lead to the now-closed bar area, you can still hear "Hope for the Future" through the door as the jukebox dies.

-Disciple

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- No McCartney. While the foot tall holographic singer was a neat novelty (and the song isn't as bad as some people make it out to be) it will not be missed. At least not by me.

He's not totally gone. ;) During the intro story mission, if you hang out by the door that would lead to the now-closed bar area, you can still hear "Hope for the Future" through the door as the jukebox dies.

Dang, you beat me to it! ;)

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..by about a day.

I should really learn to read the entire thread before replying :p

-Disciple

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- No McCartney. While the foot tall holographic singer was a neat novelty (and the song isn't as bad as some people make it out to be) it will not be missed. At least not by me.

"Well actually..." In the first mission there's a place where you can stand and hear Hope for the Future playing on a "dying" Jukebox.

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- Apparently hitting crouch while in the air makes you Glide? Did this happen in D1?

No, in D1 Glide was activated by hitting the jump button again, same as the other secondary jump abilities (blink, double jump, etc.). I haven't played the Beta yet, and this info is making me wonder if they've made crouch the button for secondary jump abilities on all characters? Or does the Voidwalker just happen to have some *other* secondary jump ability, which is on the jump button (relegating Glide to crouch)?

- Having a Melee that reduces the cool down on your Grenade is really one of the most useful things. It made me aggressively use my melee which was nice, but while it makes you feel more empowered the Beta cool downs are still like sludge.

I (almost) always used that on my Voidwalker in D1. Glad to hear it's still an option.

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- Apparently hitting crouch while in the air makes you Glide? Did this happen in D1?

No, in D1 Glide was activated by hitting the jump button again, same as the other secondary jump abilities (blink, double jump, etc.). I haven't played the Beta yet, and this info is making me wonder if they've made crouch the button for secondary jump abilities on all characters? Or does the Voidwalker just happen to have some *other* secondary jump ability, which is on the jump button (relegating Glide to crouch)?

Glide still triggers with jump being hit a second time. Crouch just does it, too. The Dawnblade has an air dash (Twilight Garrison style) which is also one reason I noticed when I swapped between them and tried to do it as a Voidwalker.

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Ah, OK. Not as jarring as I'd feared, then, but still seems odd.

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So, I've run the strike probably 30 times now. I've been trying a lot of different things. I do acknowledge some things are already identified as changinged/changing. But as the state of the Beta goes:

- I am really not encouraged by power weapons in PvE at all, and that is a problem. I have been mostly running Scathelocke, Minuet, and the Tarantula. Auto, Hand Cannon, Linear Fusion. Boss Damage comparisons as follows:
Scathelocke deals 71 precision damage per round, at 45 rounds for 3195 total potential damage per magazine.
Minuet does 281 precision per round, at 10 that means 2810 potential.
Tarantula deals 843. So with 4 rounds that is 3372.
- This makes me feel totally underpowered with my power weapon as an anti-boss tool. It is great for clearing some of the beefier adds, but with its charge time, etc., i am better of unloading 3 shots from the Minuet or a sustained 12 round burst from Scathelocke.
- When you consider how all weapons perform on other enemies (Scathelock seems to do approximately 2.5 times damage with precision hits, for example) it feels really anemic, and then you get 4 more rounds in reserve.

I am really, really hoping that the damage potential for Power weapons is better than a 5-20% increase per magazine. If it's not then power ammo is relegated to add clearing, and that totally misses what i would consider the power fantasy for those weapons types. I look forward to the shipping game being better about this, but won't hold my breath too hard.

Would love to see some Beta feedback notes from some folks on the Dev Team for what they are focused on to tweak or what other concerns may have been rectified already. I heard about more ammo drops (though that doesn't fix minimal reserve ammo) and about increased damage from abilities. I don't remember if there has been talk about PvE weapon tuning yet.

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Rambling post:

The exotics feel unique while not being overpowered. The abilities are really good, and have some really awesome synergies together. For example Arcstrider has a melee kill that will regenerate your dodge, and you can choose to have your dodge regenerate your melee, so you can often always have your melee or your dodge up. The guns feel good, but are taking some getting used to. The longer TTK is tough to adjust to, but I'm getting the hang of it. Fusion Rifles are super powerful in Crucible and you have more ammo for them than any other power weapon. Supers can be taken down with concentrated fire pretty fast, especially if you're ready with energy weapons, so pop them at the right times or suffer! Story mission is great, good encounters, lots of little touches for the story already that make it feel much more like an event than just a random excursion.

Sorry for the incredibly unorganized thoughts, but so far I'm really looking forward to September 6th.

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Sammy's had to run the initial story mission four times, because gamebreaking stuff keeps happening. The first time, everything went smooth until she went to Ikora. She didn't appear, but the door to the market was open. When she walked in, the door shut behind her, and the game told her to meet up with Ikora. She couldn't, and couldn't get out of the area. Had to restart.

The second time, the cabal didn't spawn, so even though some dialogue played, mission objectives weren't updating, and she couldn't go on.

The third time, she was defending Zavala through endless waves of cabal. Like seven or eight waves until she realized that even though the mission objective said to meet Zavala, it was pointing her back to the hangar. She went back to the hangar, then back to Zavala, only to find his ghost comically floating where he had stood (reviving him just made him drop his bubble, but no dialogue). She followed the objective marker all the way back as far as she could, but a locked door stopped her progress (enemies could be heard back there, despite not spawning when she passed through). Back to orbit.

Fourth time, everything went smooth.

Also, I can't quite tell why, but the game was making me feel slightly nauseous, especially the part where you're on the cabal ship. I had to close my eyes for a few seconds at a time. Maybe I'm just tired...

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Also, I can't quite tell why, but the game was making me feel slightly nauseous, especially the part where you're on the cabal ship. I had to close my eyes for a few seconds at a time. Maybe I'm just tired...

No, it's not just you. I had a couple of instances of nausea during the story mission. It hasn't happened again, but I also haven't replayed that section.

- CC

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Field of view is much smaller I think, that's why you feel nausea. Or maybe Sammy is trying to poison you.

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Sammy wouldn't poison me. If anything we're both trying to kill Korny slowly so she can come live with me instead.

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I got a weasel error on the last wave at Zavala and had to start over.

over all, pretty fun. I had more of a vertigo feeling that a nausea feeling. I also thought it was funny that the rain was hitting me in the face when its hitting me in the back.

I guess we are stuck now with the silent protagonist? My guardian hasn't spoken a word since the hangar scene with the Stranger.

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I got a weasel error on the last wave at Zavala and had to start over.

over all, pretty fun. I had more of a vertigo feeling that a nausea feeling. I also thought it was funny that the rain was hitting me in the face when its hitting me in the back.

I guess we are stuck now with the silent protagonist? My guardian hasn't spoken a word since the hangar scene with the Stranger.

It's worse in D2, I feel. In the first scene that we see our character, Ghost directly addresses them twice, only to be answered with an awkward blank stare. I imagined my character mouthing an appropriate reply behind the helmet...

Then again, considering the absolutely terrible dialogue in the strike (I thought Staten left?), I'm not sure I want to hear my character make me dislike them...

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I say this without any judgement as to whether these changes are good or bad...

Everything feels slower and weaker. Guns take longer to kill, abilities take longer to charge and also do less damage. The changes to weapon loadouts make our guardians feel significantly less powerful. All talk of weapon "freedom" aside, the net result is that you have lower DPS potential with the current loadout system than the D1 system.

In my short time with the beta so far, I'm finding these changes make PvP less frustrating, but not particularly exciting either. It's fun, but not top-tier competitive FPS level. I will say that the longer time to kill fits very well into Destiny PvP, IMO. It now feels appropriate to the speed (or lack thereof) that players travel.

The little bit of PvE content in the beta was honestly a bit dull IMO. Nothing overtly wrong with it, but the combat just doesn't feel as dynamic and exciting to me as the combat in D1. But that could totally just come down to the fact that I'm not playing the Beta with a max-level character with a bunch of cool gear.

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This has been seen a million times online, but just in case...

During the "Homecomming" story mission, does the encounter in the Tower Plaza seem broken to anyone else? I'm referring to the section where you need to jump into Zavala's bubble.
I've watched the videos, I know what's coming... so as I play that sequence, I listen carefully for Zavala's signal to return to him. As soon as he signals me to get into his bubble, I make a dash straight for him, only to be killed by the missile detonations exploding against the outside of his bubble. I wasn't even far away when he gave the command... maybe halfway down the steps just in front of him. It seems to me the only way to survive that barrage is to spend the entire encounter standing right next to Zavala? Anyone else running into this?

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This has been seen a million times online, but just in case...

During the "Homecomming" story mission, does the encounter in the Tower Plaza seem broken to anyone else? I'm referring to the section where you need to jump into Zavala's bubble.
I've watched the videos, I know what's coming... so as I play that sequence, I listen carefully for Zavala's signal to return to him. As soon as he signals me to get into his bubble, I make a dash straight for him, only to be killed by the missile detonations exploding against the outside of his bubble. I wasn't even far away when he gave the command... maybe halfway down the steps just in front of him. It seems to me the only way to survive that barrage is to spend the entire encounter standing right next to Zavala? Anyone else running into this?

That happened to me once, and I realized that the missiles only hit around his bubble, so you can also just avoid that part of the level entirely and live.

Also, Zavala can totally mistime the bubble and die. (And you can rez him like a regular teammate)

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Or he pops it too soon you get bombarded when it goes down.

And I was totally not expecting that to be a public space and I was mildly confused when I first played through it. Zavala will loop there to infinity.

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The strike also has an infinite spawn — of the fallen over to the right of where you spawn in. I guess they wanted a place where people could just test out fighting, or have a firefight kind of experience?

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The strike also has an infinite spawn — of the fallen over to the right of where you spawn in. I guess they wanted a place where people could just test out fighting, or have a firefight kind of experience?

Actually if you spend enough time there clearing adds, eventually they stop spawning. You'll fight Vex, Fallen and Cabal - it's a nice bit of fun.

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Oh. Good to know, but that must take a while. when we gave up and assumed it was infinite we were still on Fallen.

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When he called me I was way over by the ever verse window and I started to go beck, but before I got there I just watched as the missiles hit his child and nowhere else. Shrug.

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This has been seen a million times online, but just in case...

During the "Homecomming" story mission, does the encounter in the Tower Plaza seem broken to anyone else? I'm referring to the section where you need to jump into Zavala's bubble.
I've watched the videos, I know what's coming... so as I play that sequence, I listen carefully for Zavala's signal to return to him. As soon as he signals me to get into his bubble, I make a dash straight for him, only to be killed by the missile detonations exploding against the outside of his bubble. I wasn't even far away when he gave the command... maybe halfway down the steps just in front of him. It seems to me the only way to survive that barrage is to spend the entire encounter standing right next to Zavala? Anyone else running into this?

I didn't have any trouble, but I only left Zavala's side when my super was up. There's lots of natural cover next to Z, so it just made sense to be there. My buddy spent the whole fight over by the gunsmith's table. Apparently the missiles don't even come close if you're over there.

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This has been seen a million times online, but just in case...

During the "Homecomming" story mission, does the encounter in the Tower Plaza seem broken to anyone else? I'm referring to the section where you need to jump into Zavala's bubble.
I've watched the videos, I know what's coming... so as I play that sequence, I listen carefully for Zavala's signal to return to him. As soon as he signals me to get into his bubble, I make a dash straight for him, only to be killed by the missile detonations exploding against the outside of his bubble. I wasn't even far away when he gave the command... maybe halfway down the steps just in front of him. It seems to me the only way to survive that barrage is to spend the entire encounter standing right next to Zavala? Anyone else running into this?

I didn't have any trouble, but I only left Zavala's side when my super was up. There's lots of natural cover next to Z, so it just made sense to be there. My buddy spent the whole fight over by the gunsmith's table. Apparently the missiles don't even come close if you're over there.

They should really make the missiles blast the entire plaza so you have to hide with Zavala, it would add some drama to the fight since you'd want to be close enough to take cover.

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Yeah, I think the real problem with this encounter isn't that you can't get into the bubble in time (which Cruel's right about, the missiles hit almost immediately after Zavala speaks about them). The problem is that you're given the impression that you actually need to get into the bubble. Which you don't, unless you happened to be standing right outside it anyway.

I think they need to do one of the following:

1. Change Zavala's dialogue in some way, so that he does notify about missiles, but doesn't sound so much like "you are definitely going to be hit by these missiles unless you get in ma bubble."

2. Have the missiles hit all over the play area so that players actually ARE in danger outside the bubble. If this change is made, then the amount of warning time before they hit needs to increase a bit as well, or players won't have enough time to make their way to Zavala.

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Yeah, I think the real problem with this encounter isn't that you can't get into the bubble in time (which Cruel's right about, the missiles hit almost immediately after Zavala speaks about them). The problem is that you're given the impression that you actually need to get into the bubble. Which you don't, unless you happened to be standing right outside it anyway.

I think they need to do one of the following:

1. Change Zavala's dialogue in some way, so that he does notify about missiles, but doesn't sound so much like "you are definitely going to be hit by these missiles unless you get in ma bubble."

2. Have the missiles hit all over the play area so that players actually ARE in danger outside the bubble. If this change is made, then the amount of warning time before they hit needs to increase a bit as well, or players won't have enough time to make their way to Zavala.

I don't really have a problem with it because I quickly learned to follow his instruction only when I'm close by. If you're far away, you should know you're not going to make it inside the bubble regardless. I'm glad they didn't do #2 because I think that would have made the battlespace much more limited. i like this area because you can usually use two supers there between the orbs Zavala and other guardians drop.

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However, expect them to be a bit late if something goes wrong.

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Was able to get right in last night once I got home from work. No glitching, no long loading times and no connectivity problems.

No problems at all with opening mission other than feeling dizzy at parts. I think this was from the movements of the fire and trying to look at things/for enemies at the same time. It was a lot for my eyes to take in and I was having to force them to be ok with it.

I liked that the opening part with Zavala was a common area, I didn't expect that and was mildly confused about what was going on till I was able to rez a few people.

Once I finished with the main part I went right into Inverted Spire. This was not enjoyable, I did this with rando's who left me right at the beginning when all I wanted to do was take it slow and look around. Lesson learned, play with friends, duh.

They left me in the dust and by the time I caught up there was barely anything left to kill. Except for Cabal dogs, lots of cabal dogs. I like killing these they're scrappy and fight back.

Got to the boss and almost had him beat twice before we got mowed down each time. Teammates left because I suck so I stopped for the evening. Back at it again tonight. Also, boss is soooo close to Atheon looking it made my heart hurt. Can we please make something cooler than geometric shiny tank man.

Overall impression, please tone down things on fire, it hurts my eyes. I like that there's kinda a story...kinda...I mean like Gary is trying to take our shiny ball and go home and we don't want him to because it's our ball. So yeah, fingers crossed it gets a little more in depth. I played Gunslinger last night so I will play poledancer tonight. I didn't care for bladedancer much let's see if this is any smoother.

I dislike how slow cool downs are, I am hoping this is just a beta thing and it's not going to be that long in the game depending on what you have selected as your strengths.

I liked some of the new areas, I liked seeing the tower destroyed, and I liked the smooth sync with other live players in the beginning, more of that, it was excellent.

I didn't get to play crucible last night but I don't like 4x4. I want my 6x6 back. I'll play it out a little bit tonight, i'll still play but I hope they open up larger teams in the future.

I liked a couple new varieties of enemies with the cabal dogs and the cabal with the blades. More of that please.

Going to play more tonight and looking forward to the full game when it comes out. Not wow'd yet but not unhappy.

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No problems at all with opening mission other than feeling dizzy at parts. I think this was from the movements of the fire and trying to look at things/for enemies at the same time.

I've seen several people mention feeling nauseous due to the fire. I'm not sure where this happened to people. I didn't notice anything (yay?). I hope this doesn't develop into a serious problem for people/D2/Bungie.

I liked that the opening part with Zavala was a common area, I didn't expect that and was mildly confused about what was going on till I was able to rez a few people.

Yeah, I was confused too. I hit the encounter solo and two other guardians joined in as I was playing through it. I thought they may have been match-made in with me. I intended on posting a question about what the heck was going on in that encounter, but after reading about other people's experiences I think I got it. It's a "social space" (what's the right word?), not an instance, and it looks like repelling a certain # of waves is a personal objective that you need to meet before you can move on. I really like the idea of notable things happening in the non-instanced portions of a mission. It makes it so that they're more than just "quick sparrow past all patrol area."

I think if I play this again I'm going to hang out in that encounter for a while before moving on, just for the fun of it.

Speaking of which, how do I replay that mission? Upon completion I couldn't see a way to select it (or any PvE content) again from the director. Do I have to delete my character to play it again as a Titan?

Once I finished with the main part I went right into Inverted Spire. This was not enjoyable, I did this with rando's who left me right at the beginning when all I wanted to do was take it slow and look around. Lesson learned, play with friends, duh.

Yeah, I didn't do the Inverted Spire because I didn't want to be matched up with randos, and none of my typical crew were online.
I wasn't in the mood for PvP either. I just wanted to check out the social space & replay the PvE mission, but I couldn't see any way to do that. So I turned it off feeling dissatisfied and disappointed because I was left wanting. (not saying this is Bungie's fault tho' a link back to the story mission would have helped with this).

I dislike how slow cool downs are, I am hoping this is just a beta thing and it's not going to be that long in the game depending on what you have selected as your strengths.

The cool-down time for my super didn't bother me too much, but what really bothered me was the cool-down for my grenade (and other abilities). I wish I could pop off my abilities a little faster, especially my grenades.

Overall I think I'm looking forward to D2.

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Grenades were my big want as well. I don't mind the super slow down but I wanted my grenades and knife back MUCH faster than I was getting them.

I wouldn't mind getting back in the tower battle again and just lingering for a bit and just working through wave after wave just for fun.

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Grenades were my big want as well. I don't mind the super slow down but I wanted my grenades and knife back MUCH faster than I was getting them.

I wouldn't mind getting back in the tower battle again and just lingering for a bit and just working through wave after wave just for fun.

That encounter makes me wonder, are they considering a Firefight game mode for the future?

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Looks like you could just create a second character and use that to replay the first mission.

https://www.psu.com/news/33513/destiny-2-beta-how-to-replay-homecoming-mission

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Looks like you could just create a second character and use that to replay the first mission.

That's what I was afraid of. Why Bungie, why? Do you get weapon/armor drops in the Crucible/Strike? Maybe that has something to do with it.

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Yes, you do. But I don't know how that's a reason.

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So you can delete and replay at will if you're so inclined. It's not ideal but I think PvP and network/loadtesting is the point of this for Bungie.

I like the direction of the story, but there isn't much "new" other than details of what we've already heard about, other than trying out PvP. There have been videos of the single player stuf more or less for a while now.

I took today off to play with my son. Unfortunately he was done with it in an hour or so as he doesn't like PvP and the strike is tuned for more advanced players -- he tried it, got friustrated after dying at the end of almost killing the boss a couple times and was done with it.

I'm undecided. Definitely will play and like D2. I feel like the hype was larger than the beta this time though.

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We got an exact list of what would be in the beta. Not sure how that can be overhyped. :/

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Each class is "pre-set" but you can change how it's spec'd and swap weapons right from the get-go. I've only played hunter so far, but Arcstrider and Gunslinger are both available. Some perks are fixed (gunslinger gets 6 shots but shorter duration, for example), but others are selectable: Do you want your hunter dodge to automatically reload your gun or automatically reset the cooldown on your melee and extend its range for a short time? Which grenade type do you want (arcstrider has blade dancer grenades, fyi - gunslinger grenades are unchanged)? Jump mode?

And they start you out with a bunch of guns so you can play around a bit without needing loot drops.

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No problems at all with opening mission other than feeling dizzy at parts. I think this was from the movements of the fire and trying to look at things/for enemies at the same time.

I've seen several people mention feeling nauseous due to the fire. I'm not sure where this happened to people. I didn't notice anything (yay?). I hope this doesn't develop into a serious problem for people/D2/Bungie.

I don't think it is the fire, precisely, I think it is the wavy distortion that is simulating heat around the fire.

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No problems at all with opening mission other than feeling dizzy at parts. I think this was from the movements of the fire and trying to look at things/for enemies at the same time.

I've seen several people mention feeling nauseous due to the fire. I'm not sure where this happened to people. I didn't notice anything (yay?). I hope this doesn't develop into a serious problem for people/D2/Bungie.

I don't think it is the fire, precisely, I think it is the wavy distortion that is simulating heat around the fire.

Combine that with the rain, darkness, and bright flashes, it all probably has something to do with it.

I just found it weird, since I'm pretty immune to motion sickness and such.

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I just found it weird, since I'm pretty immune to motion sickness and such.

Motion sickness must be the only kind of sicknesses you are immune to.... You're always sick =[

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I just found it weird, since I'm pretty immune to motion sickness and such.

Motion sickness must be the only kind of sicknesses you are immune to.... You're always sick =[

I rarely get sick, actually, but when I do, it can last quite a while, since I don't fall for those "go see a doctor" scams. This last time though, I messed up my throat (and/or tonsils?) pretty bad, so I had that cough long after I was no longer sick. All better now! :D

[image]

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Glad to hear it! I just know the past few months everytime we have played (sparingly) youve been sick. Look forward to playing with you and a clear voice!

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Glad to hear it! I just know the past few months everytime we have played (sparingly) youve been sick. Look forward to playing with you and a clear voice!

Sounds like a message written for Canecutter.
Likewise, though!

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No problems at all with opening mission other than feeling dizzy at parts. I think this was from the movements of the fire and trying to look at things/for enemies at the same time.

I've seen several people mention feeling nauseous due to the fire. I'm not sure where this happened to people. I didn't notice anything (yay?). I hope this doesn't develop into a serious problem for people/D2/Bungie.

I don't think it is the fire, precisely, I think it is the wavy distortion that is simulating heat around the fire.

Combine that with the rain, darkness, and bright flashes, it all probably has something to do with it.

I just found it weird, since I'm pretty immune to motion sickness and such.

I wonder if playing in 60fps on PC would fix this.

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I just rolled my eyes at 60 frames per second.

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I just rolled my eyes at 60 frames per second.

High refresh is known to alleviate motion sickness. That's why VR aims for 90.

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Higher fps is a good thing when it comes to motion sickness...

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I'll say off the bat that this is all obviously based on a very narrow slice of the game, subject to change, all that good stuff.

So my main takeaway from playing the Beta is that the fundamental changes made to the raw mechanics seem to improve PvP, but at the expense of PvE. The longer time to kill, the new loadout system, slower cooldowns, weaker abilities... all these elements create more focus on gunplay and coordination in PvP. I've always thought the time to kill in Destiny was too quick considering how slowly our guardians move, but Destiny 2 seems to strike a better balance there. If I get caught out of position against coordinated opponents, I'll get taken down real fast. But if I come round a corner and take fire immediately, I now have time to retreat back around the corner... something I often wouldn't have time to do in D1.

I also think the new loadout system works well in PvP. Since we're essentially carrying 2 primary weapons, we can now equip a long and short range weapon without either one being freakishly overpowered, as special weapons in D1 proved to be.

It's also nice to see supers and other abilities take a step into the background a little bit. Slower cooldowns plus smaller teams (less orbs generated by teammates) means players usually end up with 1 super per match, and that feels about right. It makes using your super a more tactical decision (similar to supers in Trials of Osiris). When you know it's your one and only chance to use your super in a given match, you put more thought into how and when you use it. It also punishes players more for misusing their supers, which I like. Less grenade and super spam is a very good thing for the crucible overall.

Buuuuuuut...

I'm concerned about how all these changes are effecting PvE. Having fewer grenades, slower super recharge, and a less diverse collection of weapons (thanks to the new loadout system) means you spend a lot more time shooting at enemies with your primary weapons. I know one of them is an "Energy" weapon, but in terms of what is playable in the beta, there are very few times when the difference between your primary and your energy weapon is really a difference at all. So in terms of how you engage with the combat encounters, you are basically using 2 primary weapons. And that can be cool at times (I had fun swapping between my scout rifle and my auto rifle mid-encounter). But it is ultimately less diverse and less dynamic that swapping from a scout rifle to a shotgun and then to a rocket launcher as I would often do in D1.

The thing about special weapons in D1 is that they fill the same basic role as primary weapons, but they are more specialized and potentially more effective within their role. If I'm trying to hit enemies at long range, I can use a Scout Rifle, or I can use a sniper rifle and kill them faster and more effectively. At close range I can use an Auto Rifle, or I could use a shotgun and perform the same role more effectively. Heavy weapons have their own separate use cases on top of that variety.

In D2, I am making the same tactical decisions while I play, except my secondary weapon no longer has the extra effectiveness that it had in D1. And this makes me, the player, feel weaker. It makes encounters against mobs of enemies take longer, not due to anything interesting, but just because you have to pump out more bullets to take everything down. And on top of the more limited weapon selection, you have fewer grenades or supers to help you out. Again, I don't find this makes combat more challenging or interesting... simply more repetitive and slower.

As a friend of mine said on Twitter: "The game makes you max light level, gives you a bunch of legendary gear, and it feels like you're under-levelled & using white weapons".

As Slycrel pointed out in this thread, we technically ARE underlevelled for the PvE content in this BETA. Maybe that will change for release? I'm also hoping that the armor in the final game will play a dramatic role in speeding up our cooldowns.

The last thing I wanted to say about the PvE side of things is that both the story mission and the strike have more dialogue and character interaction than most missions in D1, and I wish they didn't. The dialogue is bad to a distracting level. The characters are just obnoxious IMO. If the rest of the character interactions in D2 are anything like what we see in the Beta, I fear we may find that Bungie heard all the complaints but maybe didn't fix them to the degree that many of us would have hoped. I think it's a safe bet that Destiny 2 will have MORE story than D1, but I'm not convinced it will be any better in quality.

I should also say that while a lot of what I'm saying sounds quite negative, it is still Destiny. It is still a Bungie shooter. It feels great, looks great... sounds decent, although I think this is the first time I'm really feeling Marty's absence from the audio team. I'm not talking about the music, but the entire mix and audio presentation. It doesn't sound quite up to the same standards I've come to expect from Bungie. Still good in that regard though, just not great. Anyway, I'm looking forward to playing the game, but I think I'm done with the Beta. PvP is better, but not good enough to pull me away from Titanfall 2. And the PvE content in the Beta just isn't strong enough for me to want to replay it even a 2nd time.

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The low end audio is so much more heavily used in the game now. it feels kind of imbalanced, but I attributed it to everyone using headphones these days.

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The low end audio is so much more heavily used in the game now. it feels kind of imbalanced, but I attributed it to everyone using headphones these days.

I noticed that too, and I think you're right.

I also found the music/sound fx balance to be poor during the cutscenes, with the music drowning out most of the other audio. And the in-game weapon sounds are a bit puny so far.

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As a friend of mine said on Twitter: "The game makes you max light level, gives you a bunch of legendary gear, and it feels like you're under-levelled & using white weapons".

Is this hyperbole or can someone get me a source on this? I ask because I noticed this on my loadout page this morning:

[image]

Could be a bug/glitch, or...?

(Sorry for the fading to black at the bottom of the image, had to "snipping tool" the screenshot from the Xbox PC app and I can't seem to find a way to get the raw image out)

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I'm pretty sure it was just some people assuming 200 was max light level. We don't even have armor with perks aside from affecting mobility, resilience, and recovery, so I personally think we haven't seen even a small percentage of what will eventually be going on.

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For comparison, go into Destiny 1 and equip a bunch of crap gear to force your grenade cooldowns to the longest cooldown time. It will feel incredibly slow, but we are so used to playing with maxed (or close to max) cooldown rates so you don't really notice. It looks to me like we are at the slowest cooldowns you can have in Destiny 2 so I would expect the cooldowns to cut in half or so once everyone has played for a bit in the final game.

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Agreed. For instance, the Sentinel's Force Barrier currently runs for 15 seconds and your melee recharges about 1/4th in that time. That puts it at roughly a 1 minute cooldown... which is right where I sometimes have my melee cooldown on my "all Suppression Grenades & Super" build of my Defender.

It does feel like Supers charge too slow, and I'd certainly like to use my Super before the very end of a Control match, but we don't know that we won't be able to double that charge rate like in D1. With no kills a Defender's super charges in 5 minutes, as I recall, but in something like 2:30 or something with max Intellect.

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For comparison, go into Destiny 1 and equip a bunch of crap gear to force your grenade cooldowns to the longest cooldown time. It will feel incredibly slow, but we are so used to playing with maxed (or close to max) cooldown rates so you don't really notice. It looks to me like we are at the slowest cooldowns you can have in Destiny 2 so I would expect the cooldowns to cut in half or so once everyone has played for a bit in the final game.

This very well be the case, although judging the Beta at face value, we start off with a bunch of Legendary gear equipped and our abilities maxed. If Bungie is following the mold set by other RPGs or Character Action Games, "Homecomming" will be a taste of our maximum potential before being knocked down and spending the majority of the campaign climbing back up.

The other potential problem I have with this setup is that as it is, it's not that fun for me (I'm talking PvE here). Maybe it gets better after levelling up a bunch, but by then I've already played the whole campaign. I had this same problem with D1. I don't find the combat particularly great until I have my ability trees maxed out and a wide selection of cool gear to play with... but by that point I've already replayed all the content so much that I'm tired of it. I'd hoped D2 wouldn't fall into this pattern, but the Beta deminishes that hope.

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The other potential problem I have with this setup is that as it is, it's not that fun for me (I'm talking PvE here). Maybe it gets better after levelling up a bunch, but by then I've already played the whole campaign.

There's a game in which your avatar levels up and gains new skills of your choosing throuoit the whole thing, and the opening level is fun right off the bat. It should be obvious to anyone which game I am thinking of.

But I don't see how you can be right, because stats like discipline are gone. If we can reduce our cooldowns, there is some other mechanism. I am not sure I really support a gear based way to lower your cooldowns anyway. Either have fixed ones with sensible values, or else have something like kills or orbs give back a chunk of meter.

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The other potential problem I have with this setup is that as it is, it's not that fun for me (I'm talking PvE here). Maybe it gets better after levelling up a bunch, but by then I've already played the whole campaign.

There's a game in which your avatar levels up and gains new skills of your choosing throuoit the whole thing, and the opening level is fun right off the bat. It should be obvious to anyone which game I am thinking of.

But I don't see how you can be right, because stats like discipline are gone. If we can reduce our cooldowns, there is some other mechanism. I am not sure I really support a gear based way to lower your cooldowns anyway. Either have fixed ones with sensible values, or else have something like kills or orbs give back a chunk of meter.

I'm not saying that cooldowns will get faster as we level up... I'm saying even if they do, by the time they get anywhere close to what we're used to, I've already spent hours playing a less-fun version of the game.

And ultimately, I don't think the cooldowns are the big problem. I think the new weapon slots are doing most of the damage. Slower cooldowns just make the problem a little worse.

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This is fair. However given how little information we have on how the actual cool down impacting perks will apply, I am not necessarily super hopeful given the general "less ability use" talk that has gone on.

Right now the Gunslinger throwing knife is at a 97 second cool down. That is 27 seconds longer than Tier 0 in D1, which is a 70 second cool down. At max STR that is down to 29 seconds. If Tier 5 melee cool down is proportional that leaves you with about a 40 second cool down, so Tier 4.

However, given that we don't know if we can have more than one ability cool down perk on a piece of armor or what ones will be available, we could have as few as 4 potential perks for cool downs. On the assumption that this is proportional (which is illogical, but the best number game to play) that would leave us with about a 55-56 second cool down with 4 melee cool down perks applied. Which is just slightly faster than Tier 2 in D1. And that is without anything for Grenade, Class ability, or Super; not accounting for possible competing perk slots for reload speed/additional ammo.

I seriously hope that this (what I would consider a probable worst case scenario) is not what we get when the game ships. I would like to be pleasantly surprised.

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The 'alt' hunter dodge resets melee cooldown, for example. You have to manually spec into it, but dang, yo. SO nice.

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Leaving that Paul McCartney song in burning rubble makes it all worth it.

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During the initial mission, if you go to the doors to where the nightclub was in Destiny 1, you can hear the broken jukebox trying to play music, but it's clearly broken. It's a nice touch.

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During the initial mission, if you go to the doors to where the nightclub was in Destiny 1, you can hear the broken jukebox trying to play music, but it's clearly broken. It's a nice touch.

That's what he's referring to.

[Waves at Hedge]

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Hey Hedge, did you see the possible dot code?
During 'Homecoming' in Tower North Market, just past the Spicy Ramen stand, last stall of the left. It is also used (reversed? upside down? directional orientation needed) on a vending machine in Crucible map Midtown?

I hope this doesn't keep you awake tonight
. .
__

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I never ever want to see this again.
*peeks*
dammit

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Leaving that Paul McCartney song in burning rubble makes it all worth it.

I loved it. :)

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It feels like Destiny, with slightly worse weapons and much harsher cooldowns. Story mission was cool, and a bit long but that's probably a good thing. Crucible felt like crucible in that I'm still awful at the game but I don't have a good shotgun to make it fun. Strike was interesting, long and moderately difficult. I'm sure better weapons/getting used to the new supers will make it just as easy as D1.

Basically, what I expected. Patrol would have been more fun, but it's just a beta.

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...I hear you can explore the spire strike a bit. I'm going to check that out tonight.

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Funk, Chris and I jumped around a bit finding invisible walls and stuff. I just stole pikes and destroyed them because I'm a terrible person.

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If you go into the Inverted Spire and just explore you can find a few interesting things. Kill some Fallen Dregs and take their Pikes. Roam safely across the rivers on the Pikes. At some point a bunch of man cannons formed over a river and you could ride them around in a big loop starting from the base of a big tree.

I lucked in to match up with two people who also were exploring.

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I don't have much to complain about in D2 but the colour scheme for the radar was too muted for me.
I have trouble seeing dim red and D2's radar seems dimmer than in D1. I've compensated for the problem by picking a colour blind scheme which changes the red to a bit yellow. It works great for me in D1 and Titanfall. No luck in D2 though. Way too muted for my liking.

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I hate the new sound design. The guns sound like toys for the most part and the music is just blah.
I have no idea what the progression will be like, which is the one thing I'm most concerned with. Along with that what are mods and how will they impact gameplay?
I like the longer TTK with the weapons, but not the insanely slow cooldowns - hopefully it's not like that in the final game. The abilities are a big part of what makes Destiny fun.
Maybe I'm just used to skating around the maps, but movement doesn't feel as smooth as Destiny 1 to me and I found myself being frustrated and not being able to make my guardian go where I wanted him to.
I like the new third abilities (warlock healing rift, titan walls, etc), it should give more depth to the gameplay.
The story mission is what I expect out of a Bungie game.
The strike was fun and had a lot of large, interesting set pieces (giant, deadly drill for example).
I like having both a Kinetic and Energy weapon, but I wish the energy weapon did less damage to unshielded enemies and more damage to enemy shields even if the damage type doesn't line up (even better, dump the damage types).
In general PvP is less fun and more competitive to me. I don't like 4v4 for Control but it was fine for Competitive.
I found the new enemy types for the Cabal to add fun dynamics to the combat.
I spun around to catch a warhound about to eat my face which would have been terrifying, but it immediately died.

I'll wait for reviews when the game comes out to figure out if I want to pick it up or not. Sorry Bungie, but you lost my confidence with Destiny 1. I had a lot of fun with Destiny 1, but I'm burned out on the stupid grind and not looking to get back into a game like that. Whether I decide to buy it depends a lot on how the grind has changed and what PvE experiences there are.

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Original D1 recharge rates for grenade were 1:00, melee was 1:09. This was with Tier 0 and no perks that increase speeds. In D2 the recharge rate is 1:23 (from matches from last night I recorded) with no upgrades for both. There WILL be perks that affect this (in the DRE armor had perks that increased recharge rate, see this sheet transcribed from the DRE to see that there are perks for grenade, melee, super, and even class abilities. So as of right now the increased recharge rate is about 20%-33% longer. That's not really that bad. With armor perks giving us faster recharge rates and possibly even two charges (we know at least that Strikers get can dual lightning grenades from the Kostov gameplay) I think it'll be much more reasonable (though still slower than D1, which I'm 100% okay with).

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Original D1 recharge rates for grenade were 1:00, melee was 1:09. This was with Tier 0 and no perks that increase speeds. In D2 the recharge rate is 1:23 (from matches from last night I recorded) with no upgrades for both. There WILL be perks that affect this (in the DRE armor had perks that increased recharge rate, see this sheet transcribed from the DRE to see that there are perks for grenade, melee, super, and even class abilities. So as of right now the increased recharge rate is about 20%-33% longer. That's not really that bad. With armor perks giving us faster recharge rates and possibly even two charges (we know at least that Strikers get can dual lightning grenades from the Kostov gameplay) I think it'll be much more reasonable (though still slower than D1, which I'm 100% okay with).

I wish with dual charges they would charge simultaneously and independently. That would be so much better and more flexible than now where the second charges only when the first is full.

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Original D1 recharge rates for grenade were 1:00, melee was 1:09. This was with Tier 0 and no perks that increase speeds. In D2 the recharge rate is 1:23 (from matches from last night I recorded) with no upgrades for both. There WILL be perks that affect this (in the DRE armor had perks that increased recharge rate, see this sheet transcribed from the DRE to see that there are perks for grenade, melee, super, and even class abilities. So as of right now the increased recharge rate is about 20%-33% longer. That's not really that bad. With armor perks giving us faster recharge rates and possibly even two charges (we know at least that Strikers get can dual lightning grenades from the Kostov gameplay) I think it'll be much more reasonable (though still slower than D1, which I'm 100% okay with).

Health recharge is about a second longer, according to Datto. Nothing to get upset about.

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Original D1 recharge rates for grenade were 1:00, melee was 1:09. This was with Tier 0 and no perks that increase speeds. In D2 the recharge rate is 1:23 (from matches from last night I recorded) with no upgrades for both. There WILL be perks that affect this (in the DRE armor had perks that increased recharge rate, see this sheet transcribed from the DRE to see that there are perks for grenade, melee, super, and even class abilities. So as of right now the increased recharge rate is about 20%-33% longer. That's not really that bad. With armor perks giving us faster recharge rates and possibly even two charges (we know at least that Strikers get can dual lightning grenades from the Kostov gameplay) I think it'll be much more reasonable (though still slower than D1, which I'm 100% okay with).

Health recharge is about a second longer, according to Datto. Nothing to get upset about.

I wouldn't say I'm "upset", just disappointed. Xenos point that it isn't that much slower than D1 isn't particularly reassuring to me personally, because I thought combat in D1 was already way too slow and repetitive until you get close to max level. Even if the cooldowns were identical to the starting point in D1, I'd be disappointed because I was very much hoping that the combat elements of the initial campaign experience would be improved in D2, not go backwards.

It's a design philosophy that is a pet peeve of mine; create a combat system that is fun and diverse and exciting, then strip stuff away from it or impede the player's ability to use these mechanics and then slowly remove those impediments over time as a form of "investment mechanic". Destiny is far from the only game that does this obviously.

If the early portion of the campaign ends up playing similarly to the Beta, then I'm not going to enjoy it. I'll be able to go back and replay it once I'm fully levelled, and the mechanics will be more fun at that point, but I will already have experienced the content. It's loosely equivalent to being forced to play Halo CE on easy before being allowed to unlock higher difficulty levels. I don't enjoy Halo on easy, but Halo let's me jump straight into Legendary. That option doesn't exist in Destiny. (And I know that's not a 1-to-1 comparison for a bunch of reasons, but hopefully my meaning comes across :)

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I wouldn't say I'm "upset", just disappointed. Xenos point that it isn't that much slower than D1 isn't particularly reassuring to me personally, because I thought combat in D1 was already way too slow and repetitive until you get close to max level. Even if the cooldowns were identical to the starting point in D1, I'd be disappointed because I was very much hoping that the combat elements of the initial campaign experience would be improved in D2, not go backwards.

I think I'd be ok with slow cooldowns and stuff initially because we lose our connection to the light and that might be a good way to have the player feel like they've lost something they need to get back. That said, the initial mission should start with those cooldowns maxed and it should be designed so that you have max cooldowns again before you complete the story/reach max level. Don't make me finish the story and then grind another 100 hours just to get decent cooldowns!

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I totally get your complaint, and I think there are several people that agree with you, but I do have to point out you're talking about something like single digit percentages of the time you'll probably end up playing Destiny 2. I played well over 1200 hours of Destiny 1 and maybe 40 of that, at most, was spent at a point where I didn't have enhanced grenade and melee recharge rates.

Like I said, not saying you're wrong, but you're most likely going to even forget about the time it takes to improve your build.

(I personally like the progression part at the beginning, makes it more interesting for that time period than just "here's all your powers and everything is maxed out!")

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I totally get your complaint, and I think there are several people that agree with you, but I do have to point out you're talking about something like single digit percentages of the time you'll probably end up playing Destiny 2. I played well over 1200 hours of Destiny 1 and maybe 40 of that, at most, was spent at a point where I didn't have enhanced grenade and melee recharge rates.

Like I said, not saying you're wrong, but you're most likely going to even forget about the time it takes to improve your build.

(I personally like the progression part at the beginning, makes it more interesting for that time period than just "here's all your powers and everything is maxed out!")

That's a very good and fair point. In the grand scheme of things, the time it takes to level up my characters is minor relative to the amount of time I'm likely to spend playing D2. But having my first experience with the campaign dragged down by what is IMO a somewhat dull version of Destiny's combat does tarnish the experience for me in a significant, if short, way.

My first time through a game is usually when I'm the most absorbed by it. It's all new to me, so I'm totally taken in by everything I'm seeing and doing. As I replay the game, it becomes more about social interactions with friends, or mastering the game on a mechanical level. But the real heart and soul of the story missions falls into the background, because I've already seen it all.

I would really love to be able to jump into Destiny 2 and have an initial experience that blows me away on all levels the way I felt playing Halo CE or Reach, or Mass Effect 2, The Last of Us, Titanfall 2, etc. I love it so much when the gameplay mechanics reinforce the emotional beats of the story. So many of Halo 1 - Reach's story beats land as well as they do because the player's adrenalin is pumping, or their nerves are frazzled, or they're feeling triumphant as a result of the combat scenario they just experienced. Destiny 1 failed to deliver that kind of experience for me, because until I maxed out my characters, I found the combat too dull to illicit those feelings. The Mission and Strike in the Destiny 2 Beta land even further away from what I'm hoping for.

So I'm quite sure that I'll end up having a blast with "Destiny 2: the social game that you play with friends while being completely detached from the game world or plot". I'm just disappointed that it's looking like I might not enjoy "Destiny 2: The gripping, dramatic sci-fi/fantasy adventure story" that will be my first playthrough,

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So many of Halo 1 - Reach's story beats land as well as they do because the player's adrenalin is pumping, or their nerves are frazzled, or they're feeling triumphant as a result of the combat scenario they just experienced. Destiny 1 failed to deliver that kind of experience for me, because until I maxed out my characters, I found the combat too dull to illicit those feelings. The Mission and Strike in the Destiny 2 Beta land even further away from what I'm hoping for.

Comparing it to Halo is tough, since Halo did combat about as well as you possibly could. Not only were the shooting mechanics solid, but it was all about space, and progression through the battlefield. Destiny never really had that ebb and flow to combat, where you were trying to take an area, get set back, only to bust through. You can kind of just sprint anywhere, so it's less important.

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I would suggest a lot of that is a combination of map design (and there are definitely Destiny maps that wouldn't be out of place in a Halo game and vice versa) and resource allocation. Weapons/Grenades/Power Ups on map do a lot to motivate map flow and Destiny allows players to be more selective in how they engage on a given map.

I think there are benefits to both styles and don't consider one better than another. Albeit it would be interesting to see how Destiny would play with items on the map, or perhaps specific ammunition types and energy "charges."

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The class ability cooldowns are fine and I think that any cooldown perks should still be slower than D1 at the end of the day. Super cooldown needs a global buff, though.

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The class ability cooldowns are fine and I think that any cooldown perks should still be slower than D1 at the end of the day. Super cooldown needs a global buff, though.

Yeah, super cooldown I'm definitely more understanding of. I'm not sure I want faster cooldowns in PvP, but it is a more severe reduction. According to other users' research supers charge 50% slower than in D1. I'm still on the fence personally on if I want it faster, but I'll need more time with the game to know which way I end up leaning.

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For me it has less to do with the actual cool down timers and more to do with the reduction in tactical options. The power of all non-super abilities are notably less powerful. Had it just been a power reduction or a cool down nerf I would have an easier time with it as it would still motivate gunplay through either reduced availability (but still potent) abilities or reduced effectiveness. The class abilities get the most play, but it makes it feel more like a one legged stool when Grenades and Melee are a distraction rather than a tool. You can still push a gunfight focus without making that the only available action.

Alternative suggestion for PvP: Grenade, Melee, and Ability pickups spawn on the map. No cool down reduction at the core for PvP, but there are ability energy spawns, like power ups or grenades have spawned on map in games in the past. You could even make it more team friendly by having the pickups be shareable, but that they degrade with each pull (like 40% for the first player to pick up, and then 25-10-5 or something) so that it limits spamming.

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For me it has less to do with the actual cool down timers and more to do with the reduction in tactical options. The power of all non-super abilities are notably less powerful. Had it just been a power reduction or a cool down nerf I would have an easier time with it as it would still motivate gunplay through either reduced availability (but still potent) abilities or reduced effectiveness. The class abilities get the most play, but it makes it feel more like a one legged stool when Grenades and Melee are a distraction rather than a tool. You can still push a gunfight focus without making that the only available action.

Alternative suggestion for PvP: Grenade, Melee, and Ability pickups spawn on the map. No cool down reduction at the core for PvP, but there are ability energy spawns, like power ups or grenades have spawned on map in games in the past. You could even make it more team friendly by having the pickups be shareable, but that they degrade with each pull (like 40% for the first player to pick up, and then 25-10-5 or something) so that it limits spamming.

It's too early for me to be sure of my feelings on this, but I think the new weapon slot system is the biggest problem. Or maybe it's just the "final" problem? Like if you're going to reduce the player's ability to use grenades and supers and other space magic, then obviously that shifts more of the focus over to the guns (which are already our primary tools, but now moreso). But if the guns also feel less diverse and powerful, then it all just falls flat, doesn't it. I'm cool with shifting more focus towards the guns, but that means the guns need to deliver in terms of variety and excitement and effectiveness. We'll see how it shakes out in the final game, but the Beta is lacking in this regard, IMO.

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Completely disagree.

So far, from my point of view, the gunplay is excellent with each gun performing well without any gun becoming the gun everyone has to have. If all they were to do is reduce the cooldowns (by implementing the cooldown reducing armor we’ve already seen in screenshots, if nothing else) and throw in cool exotics and, of course, give us more maps, I’d call this new version of the Crucible a significant improvement.

No, it’s not Titanfall. But I count that as a very good thing.

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Completely disagree.

So far, from my point of view, the gunplay is excellent with each gun performing well without any gun becoming the gun everyone has to have. If all they were to do is reduce the cooldowns (by implementing the cooldown reducing armor we’ve already seen in screenshots, if nothing else) and throw in cool exotics and, of course, give us more maps, I’d call this new version of the Crucible a significant improvement.

No, it’s not Titanfall. But I count that as a very good thing.

I should have clarified: everything I said in the post above was referring to PvE. I quite like how the game plays in PvP.

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Completely disagree.

So far, from my point of view, the gunplay is excellent with each gun performing well without any gun becoming the gun everyone has to have. If all they were to do is reduce the cooldowns (by implementing the cooldown reducing armor we’ve already seen in screenshots, if nothing else) and throw in cool exotics and, of course, give us more maps, I’d call this new version of the Crucible a significant improvement.

No, it’s not Titanfall. But I count that as a very good thing.

I should have clarified: everything I said in the post above was referring to PvE. I quite like how the game plays in PvP.

If they increase (and guarantee) heavy ammo drops like they said they'd do, that should open up the PvE gunplay quite a bit by not relegating heavy ammo to something you have to save for a boss.

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Completely disagree.

So far, from my point of view, the gunplay is excellent with each gun performing well without any gun becoming the gun everyone has to have. If all they were to do is reduce the cooldowns (by implementing the cooldown reducing armor we’ve already seen in screenshots, if nothing else) and throw in cool exotics and, of course, give us more maps, I’d call this new version of the Crucible a significant improvement.

No, it’s not Titanfall. But I count that as a very good thing.

I should have clarified: everything I said in the post above was referring to PvE. I quite like how the game plays in PvP.

If they increase (and guarantee) heavy ammo drops like they said they'd do, that should open up the PvE gunplay quite a bit by not relegating heavy ammo to something you have to save for a boss.

Yeah that was the one complaint I had, which since they are addressing it I'm pretty happy. I especially liked that they said in the THAB that certain enemies would guarantee power ammo drops. It'd make me REALLY happy if that applied to Raids too. Just imagine in WotM if the cannon captains always dropped heavy.

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So, something I did notice: There are enemies with Orange health bars now and at least all the Fallen hopping off the Skiff with those health bars reliably dropped Power Ammo.

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Played a bunch yesterday, wasn't too shocked at anything, but the one thing I'm having trouble describing is how the game looks and feels different than Destiny 1.

Something about the geometry and feedback doesn't seem quite...right. The geometry/colors almost remind me of Halo 5 more than Destiny. It's harder to tell exactly what is happening when you are shooting enemies, but I can't seem to identify what feedback mechanisms are missing or changed. Destiny 1 seemed very precise to me, but the D2 Beta seems "slimy" - to use the first word that popped into my head while playing the strike for the first time. I don't know how to relate that to specific differences.

Did anyone else notice something similar?

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Played a bunch yesterday, wasn't too shocked at anything, but the one thing I'm having trouble describing is how the game looks and feels different than Destiny 1.

Something about the geometry and feedback doesn't seem quite...right. The geometry/colors almost remind me of Halo 5 more than Destiny. It's harder to tell exactly what is happening when you are shooting enemies, but I can't seem to identify what feedback mechanisms are missing or changed. Destiny 1 seemed very precise to me, but the D2 Beta seems "slimy" - to use the first word that popped into my head while playing the strike for the first time. I don't know how to relate that to specific differences.

Did anyone else notice something similar?

Yep. Colors are more washed out and muted, while brights and bloom are more pronounced. The Strike especially. And it doesn't help that the UI is also a bit harder to read.

Another Halo 5-esque problem that I noticed is that areas feel almost too big. Like they wanted folks to spread out, but there is no reason to. Plenty of alternate tunnels and side roads that go nowhere, and/or have no enemies. Will these be parts of story missions and patrol and such? Maybe, but they just feel big and empty, compared to D1's narrower areas.
If you get separated from your teammates, you're in for a long march back to them...

I like the stronger contrasts of D1 better.

As for the "slimy" feeling, Sammy noticed it on Hunters, but Warlocks have the opposite feeling, where everything is too stiff, but your jumps are too floaty. In D1, as soon as I started a jump, I knew more or less exactly where I would be by the end of it. In D2, I'll have to focus on controlling the jump throughout, which is pretty odd, but not a dealbreaker (still my favorite jump so far).

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Has anyone done any major comparison images yet? Or video? I would be interested in comparing, say, the Tower areas that are available to see how much of a change is art v technical.

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Has anyone done any major comparison images yet? Or video? I would be interested in comparing, say, the Tower areas that are available to see how much of a change is art v technical.

Yee, check'em out.

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Has anyone done any major comparison images yet? Or video? I would be interested in comparing, say, the Tower areas that are available to see how much of a change is art v technical.

Working on a video that walks through the Homecoming mission's tower areas with comparison to the same places in Destiny 1's tower.

Hopefully will be out Monday.

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I agree. At first, I was super disoriented and my spatial awareness was poor. I think the FoV and 30FPS are part of the problem...at least for me personally (I haven't played a game under 90FoV or 60FPS in a long time).

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Played a bunch yesterday, wasn't too shocked at anything, but the one thing I'm having trouble describing is how the game looks and feels different than Destiny 1.

Something about the geometry and feedback doesn't seem quite...right. The geometry/colors almost remind me of Halo 5 more than Destiny. It's harder to tell exactly what is happening when you are shooting enemies, but I can't seem to identify what feedback mechanisms are missing or changed. Destiny 1 seemed very precise to me, but the D2 Beta seems "slimy" - to use the first word that popped into my head while playing the strike for the first time. I don't know how to relate that to specific differences.

Did anyone else notice something similar?

OH MY GOODNESS! This was in essence the graphic reservations I've formentioned.

For EXAMPLE, and only for example - I'm not going to talk about it yet. I have some reservations and concerns about Destiny 2 visuals. I expect I have these because I have some of that know how and trained eye. Yet it would be FOOLISH to say anything now, as all I have to go off of are trailers. What I see could be because of the nature of a beta, or it could be a world look that I am unaware of, or it could be resolution I watch something at... or... something else. I don't know. It's too early to say.

I posted this 8 days ago. Seeing I'm not alone in this, I'll allow a peek at my thoughts. After all, we are hands on now, so why not.

At first thought, this "look" is strictly Nessus. The HUGE use of bold White,Red,Green, and Black gives it a very Halo 5-ish look. Going through the Tower, which currently you can only do once per empty slot, I didn't have the same as strong impression.

Halo 5 looked as it did because of cost cutting measure toward the frame rate. For them 60FPS was #1, and everything else was secondary. I recall reading something that really went into detail about it, I'll see if I can find it. Anyway, I'm thinking for the REALLY big spaces there may be so of those Halo 5 Shenanigans so that we can have that vastness, with AI, and particles (which I'm noticing a lot more GPU based particles), and all the little bits and bobs the makes things look as they do.

Things to look for - Note how lights look on surfaces. How is it shaded? I'm really interested right now in the new look of the Servitors. In the past the biggest effect about them was the emissive fresnel angle A.K.A how the light you see reflects at different intensities based off of the angle you are viewing it from. Except...you know...glowing. They always had this sort of glow to them more often then not. Now - It's right glossy instead of the mat finish it had before. I have a few guesses on the method used, but I still don't know. Part of the fun through.

Also how quickly do things degrade in visual quality into the distance? This may be harder for you to see unless you know what to look for, so look for things kind of dissolving away in quality. That's the best direction I can think of right now.

There is probably some other things, but that's what I got at the top of my head right now.

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Played a bunch yesterday, wasn't too shocked at anything, but the one thing I'm having trouble describing is how the game looks and feels different than Destiny 1.

Something about the geometry and feedback doesn't seem quite...right. The geometry/colors almost remind me of Halo 5 more than Destiny. It's harder to tell exactly what is happening when you are shooting enemies, but I can't seem to identify what feedback mechanisms are missing or changed. Destiny 1 seemed very precise to me, but the D2 Beta seems "slimy" - to use the first word that popped into my head while playing the strike for the first time. I don't know how to relate that to specific differences.

Did anyone else notice something similar?

OH MY GOODNESS! This was in essence the graphic reservations I've formentioned.

For EXAMPLE, and only for example - I'm not going to talk about it yet. I have some reservations and concerns about Destiny 2 visuals. I expect I have these because I have some of that know how and trained eye. Yet it would be FOOLISH to say anything now, as all I have to go off of are trailers. What I see could be because of the nature of a beta, or it could be a world look that I am unaware of, or it could be resolution I watch something at... or... something else. I don't know. It's too early to say.

I posted this 8 days ago. Seeing I'm not alone in this, I'll allow a peek at my thoughts. After all, we are hands on now, so why not.

At first thought, this "look" is strictly Nessus. The HUGE use of bold White,Red,Green, and Black gives it a very Halo 5-ish look. Going through the Tower, which currently you can only do once per empty slot, I didn't have the same as strong impression.

In general I liked the ... [graphics?] of the Inverted Spire strike. I thought the area was pretty, and enticing. It was an area that I would like to be in, but it did feel somewhat overdone [with effects?] to me.

I did NOT like the graphics/art-direction of the Homecoming mission. I really dislike dirty busy environments. Also, everything feels so very... [overbaked?] to me, they've just done too much. Oversaturated, maybe that's a better word to describe it, and I don't just mean in colors, I mean in effects too. Too much. The strike also felt that way, but to a lesser degree.

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Jumps are even the same.

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So far I love everything I've seen so far.

I've only played as a hunter and it feels so good. It feels so smooth. It doesn't really feel different but, it just feels so fluid and smooth. I feel like my hunter actually as some agility. I wish the grenades would charge a bit faster though.

PvP

I'm fine with the slow super charge, but would like to see more orb creation after use. There have been games where the game is over before my super charges, even though I've performed well.

The weapon system is great. Two primaries is good and there are options for long, mid and short range combat. The power weapon system is good. They spawn rather frequently which is good. So far I've used the grenade launcher (kinda worthless) and the fusion rifle (awesome). They are the perfect balance of risk/reward.

I'm intrigued by all the "mod" slots on the armor and weapons.

This definitely has more of an old Halo feel. Longer TTK has resulted in great firefights, strategy and tactics.

PvE

Homecoming was fun, really not much to comment on that one.

The strike was beautiful. It was cool being in such an open atmosphere. The battle before the drill section felt like a proper battlefield. Seeing so far and looking ahead at the ground to cover was cool. Weapons felt good, grenades again felt weak and too slow.

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I'm very excited. They’ve done a better job with the story in one mission that they ever did in D1 in-game, and that was the number one improvement I was hoping for. I care about what happens next, and just finding out what happened to the central characters provides more than enough plot for this next game. My first playthrough of the story mission wasn’t that enjoyable, but that I think that was because I struggled so much getting my bearings—I kept switching to weapons with no ammo, and died more times than I would’ve liked. My second playthrough was ace, though. Used my super twice in the public area, and had a blast. The strike was epic—the spaces are enormous, and the sightlines make me excited for the patrol areas—everything feels less bounded by buildings, mountains, and water. I’ve had fun in crucible, too, although that’s probably been more of an adjustment. I love it that team play is so effective, so I’ll probably be playing Crucible more with you all, and I hope you’ll bear with me.

I love the art style, and how they’ve made things look familiar yet different—I’m kind of amazed by that, actually, considering the variety that existed in D1.

Regarding all the changes and inevitable gnashing of teeth that comes with it, isn’t that par for the course with new Bungie games? Frankly, that’s something I love and respect about them. They never rest on their laurels and merely tweak the status quo. They almost always assume that they can improve things and haven’t been afraid of change their games, sometimes radically. I think they felt they’d done all they could with Halo, and you could say that 343’s struggles with keeping that franchise fresh is evidence that they had. I’ve never been one of those to debate small details regarding mechanics or perks, but if D2 weren’t so different from D1, I think I’d be disappointed. If I’m going to spend anywhere close to as much time with it as I did D1, I don’t want more of the same.

I’ll end with one note of disappointment. The music doesn’t strike me as instantly memorable to the degree that Marty’s did, but it’s very good. A little anxious about the sound mix, too, but maybe I’m listening for faults there. It’s still better than most games.

Kerm

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I’ll end with one note of disappointment. The music doesn’t strike me as instantly memorable to the degree that Marty’s did, but it’s very good. A little anxious about the sound mix, too, but maybe I’m listening for faults there. It’s still better than most games.

Regarding sound.

For me, Initially for whatever reason, the Beta started up and only output stereo. It wasn't until I quit and launched again before I got all the audio channels. It may be possible that the bad audio mix some folks are experiencing is the result of this. Either a bad stereo down-mix, or the game only outputting the left and right channels.

Double check everything is outputting correctly. Dialogue was much more clear when the game worked properly.

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I’ll end with one note of disappointment. The music doesn’t strike me as instantly memorable to the degree that Marty’s did, but it’s very good. A little anxious about the sound mix, too, but maybe I’m listening for faults there. It’s still better than most games.

Regarding sound.

For me, Initially for whatever reason, the Beta started up and only output stereo. It wasn't until I quit and launched again before I got all the audio channels. It may be possible that the bad audio mix some folks are experiencing is the result of this. Either a bad stereo down-mix, or the game only outputting the left and right channels.

Double check everything is outputting correctly. Dialogue was much more clear when the game worked properly.

That's actually encouraging. Thanks!

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I'm very excited. They’ve done a better job with the story in one mission that they ever did in D1 in-game, and that was the number one improvement I was hoping for. I care about what happens next, and just finding out what happened to the central characters provides more than enough plot for this next game.

Spoilers ahead. Let me start by saying I'm not even mad or upset. And that I know this is a Beta. And that for all I know, Bungie is holding back on some story or even locations in this opening mission. And obviously there will ideally be A LOT more story and such to come that may address every concern I'm about to state.

And with that out of the way, I don't understand how you can say this one mission did more in-game for "story" than D1 did. I also don't share in your excitement. I'm also not saying you shouldn't feel excited, btw. You got something out of the mission that I didn't, and that's what's wonderful about stories, writing, and even how things play out in games. BUT, I'd personally still put Taken King over this, or I'd put this right there with D1 stuff. There's BARELY a story here. From D1, we still have been provided no reason at all to care about the city or the tower or the Speaker. Somehow these walls have kept aliens AND ships full of aliens at bay, and even Oryx was so stupid that he decided to just pop into Saturn and obliterate a portion of the rings instead of, I dunno, going to Earth and taking care of business.

Yet somehow the Cabal are the very first, after all this time, to just say to themselves, hey selves, let's go wreck what's left of Earth and capture the Traveler. And so they just woosh in and do it. Those walls weren't impressive at all. A lot of this seems to outright defy the entire believability of how we made it to this point even pre-D1, as I stated above.

And those civilians in the tower or in the city below? We still don't know about them or care. The Traveler is still just sitting there. We're cut off from its light, yet we're going to still somehow survive being kicked off a ship, and my Ghost I assume will be just fine as well one way or another. But again, maybe we're missing a part of the story at the beginning between some of these cutscenes or portions of the level. Maybe right after the last thing we see, we pull off a cool counter-attack and knock the big Cabal thing off of the Traveler. It'd be a small victory considering we just lost everything else, and it'd create consequence and urgency right from the getgo while allowing us to attempt to fight back and overcome this disaster. This could be going places, and THAT excites me. But as it was presented, no, there's really not much there aside from the threat to the Traveler/our light.

Also, it's mighty convenient that Mr. Big Cabal shows up right behind us within a matter of seconds of us clearing out everything in our path to get there. But hey, plot device, right? As for the Cabal in general, D1 did a good job of making it so that they don't scare or concern me because I've slaughtered them up and down for years now. And D1 was so flimsy on story or reason to feel worried about these guys that I'm just not bothered by them. I'm sure I'll have them dealt with in a matter of 3-6 actual gameplay campaign hours.

Wanna know what was terrifying and challenging and threatening after years? The Covenant and the Flood. Even after H1, H2 made them even more insane and threatening. And Earth was legit in peril. And Bungie's first game had provided enough set up for the Covenant and the Flood to allow me to fear any of them finding Earth. I feel like we're going to end up "reclaiming" our city that I know nothing about and don't care about by the end of this game, and the Cabal will be defeated (or at least this version of them will be just like Oryx's "threat" even though the species itself will still be around fighting us).

And let me also add that I hope I'm dead wrong. I said frequently with regards to D1's story that the game needs consequences. I need a reason to care about these characters and events and THE DARKNESS and the other baddies roaming around. I need to feel like there's actually something at stake. I still don't feel it. Mr. Big Cabal says I don't fear death and it's time to learn me a lesson. Joke's on him, we all know that we're gonna be fine and able to revive and so on and so forth.

I seriously hope that when this happens, the payoff is that we seriously lost a lot and STILL have to deal with all the other insane threats coming. I hope our backs are still majorly against the wall. I hope that wherever Bungie's end-game for D2 takes us (after all DLCs and expansions drop), that it's one of those Empire Strikes Back or even Two Towers feelings of dread. We're scattered, people are captured or dead, we've lost our lightsaber (and maybe some body parts), we've won epic battles against all sorts of foes, but there's a new Death Star on the way and Sauron still has an endless army waiting for us, and quite frankly, we're outgunned, outmatched, and it looks like there's no possible way we're going to survive Destin3. I want there to be an awesome story so bad here. I hope there's more story, the stakes feel real, and that whatever we accomplish or overcome feels earned.

To conclude, that first mission's story still felt a lot like D1. I'm not hype. But holy cow do I want to be hype. Which is probably good. I don't have high expectations, so I'm not going into this unprepared to be disappointed. Either way, if it's anything like D1 as far as gameplay goes, it should be a blast to play with friends and such, so I can at least look forward to that aspect of the game being fun. Can't wait to get my Raid on! After all, it's just a beta. I'm sure I'll see you starside in this thing regardless, and the funs will be had.

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Yet somehow the Cabal are the very first, after all this time, to just say to themselves, hey selves, let's go wreck what's left of Earth and capture the Traveler. And so they just woosh in and do it. Those walls weren't impressive at all. A lot of this seems to outright defy the entire believability of how we made it to this point even pre-D1, as I stated above.

True. This is why below I suggested a more drawn out invasion, where they slowly advance and overwhelm us despite our efforts. The first mission could have been at the end of Act 1.

To conclude, that first mission's story still felt a lot like D1. I'm not hype. But holy cow do I want to be hype.

Did you play crucible? Do that and you will be hype.

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Did you play crucible? Do that and you will be hype.

I'm only not hype as far as story goes. I tried to make my post story-only. While I didn't get the chance to Crucible yet, I will tomorrow. I got to sit back and watch Crucible be played today, and it was a fun time even just watching and listening to people playing. It looks like good stuff. I'm going to need to feel this one out for myself. I've read other takes here, and I don't think I agree with or get a lot of them based on what I observed earlier. But yeah, Crucible looks good so far. I play a Titan, so I can't wait to see if my thoughts differ with other Titan thoughts around here.

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But yeah, Crucible looks good so far. I play a Titan, so I can't wait to see if my thoughts differ with other Titan thoughts around here.

I need some tips for dealing with Titan shields on cap points.

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But yeah, Crucible looks good so far. I play a Titan, so I can't wait to see if my thoughts differ with other Titan thoughts around here.

I need some tips for dealing with Titan shields on cap points.

You go for the other 2 capture points ;p

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Yet somehow the Cabal are the very first, after all this time, to just say to themselves, hey selves, let's go wreck what's left of Earth and capture the Traveler. And so they just woosh in and do it. Those walls weren't impressive at all. A lot of this seems to outright defy the entire believability of how we made it to this point even pre-D1, as I stated above.

No. They are the second. The Fallen tried the same thing at the Battle of Twilight Gap. And if the House of Wolves hadn’t been stopped by the Awoken... well:

The transmission was broadcasted on all Fallen frequencies. Lacking, at the time, the ability to crack Fallen encryptions, the Master of Crows could discern only that the Fallen Houses were all talking to each other. That was a thing that had never happened before.

Then the Techeuns looked Earthward—and saw the Fallen there becoming bolder. Tactics suggested they were planning a massive attack. We had no interplanetary arrays—no way to warn Earth. We thought we would be able to do nothing but watch.

But then the Wolves arrived from the Jovians. Their army was hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions strong: a dark wave that washed over the Reef, rushing toward the Earth. As soon as we saw them it was clear that if the Wolves reached Earth, the City would fall.

The difference between the Fallen and the Cabal is that the Cabal appear to be an empire still in its prime instead of the remnants of a Golden Age civilization that had been torn apart and forced to flee to the stars to escape extinction. That, and the Cabal obviously came better prepared to deal with threat of unkillable Guardians.

That said, I do agree we should know much more about the City we are protecting (and abandoning or losing?!) than we do. Same for the Speaker that Ikora Rey is so upset and concerned about. The Zavala’s Prelude trailer is easily the best bit of scene setting we have, but we should have had much more than that. It’s super unfortunate that we don’t.

On the third hand, while Homecoming doesn’t fill in that story gap completely, it is inarguably a better mission than just about anything in Destiny 1. Things are happening. The battle over the City is amazing and terrifying to look at. (Watch the Cabal cruisers rain gun or missile fire down on sections of the City! Watch the fun little loops of Guardian jumpships dogfighting with Cabal fighters / transports.) The interactions between the skybox and the game space is significant (what with the command ship launching the attack pods and missiles into the play space.) and we don’t just hear the Vangard over the comm, we get to see each of them fighting near us.

At some point, Destiny is “just” a FPS. In the same way I don’t look back at the opening mission of Halo 2 and complain that I never set foot on Earth in Halo, so I don’t have any motivation to defend it, it’s pretty silly to claim a lack of motivation or concern, as some have. It would take at least another good five minute cutscene to even begin to explore the full significance of the City and at that point we’d be at 10 minutes before even giving control to the player.

Also, I think this first mission is going to be a bit more important story wise than Destiny 1’s first mission was. I think they are setting up the journeys of each of the Vanguard with some of the dialog. Zavala says something along the lines of “the Traveler can wait, we must get the civilians to safety” while Ikora is all about protecting the Traveler and Clyde-6 is his impulsive self and wants to kill the guy responsible first and ask questions later. From what little we’ve seen, Zavala will be off on Titan trying to rally Humanity’s forces to take back the City, Ikora is off at Io investigating the last place the Traveler touched before it came to Earth, and Cayde-6 foolishly gets trapped on Nessus while hunting Cabal. If the major story beats really do call back to this first mission, it will be a major step forward for Destiny.

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At some point, Destiny is “just” a FPS. In the same way I don’t look back at the opening mission of Halo 2 and complain that I never set foot on Earth in Halo, so I don’t have any motivation to defend it, it’s pretty silly to claim a lack of motivation or concern, as some have. It would take at least another good five minute cutscene to even begin to explore the full significance of the City and at that point we’d be at 10 minutes before even giving control to the player.

It doesn't have to be a cutscene. You can place the player in the city and let them wander around as you come back from a mission. Your 'quest giver' could be in the city, and you could get and receive a few before the Cabal show up. Look at the Market in Uncharted 4. Not only are there hundreds of people that are each doing their own thing and don't appear to be on a repeating pattern, but they can react to you if you pass by or bump them.

Put us in the city and let us look around a bit.

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At some point, Destiny is “just” a FPS. In the same way I don’t look back at the opening mission of Halo 2 and complain that I never set foot on Earth in Halo, so I don’t have any motivation to defend it, it’s pretty silly to claim a lack of motivation or concern, as some have. It would take at least another good five minute cutscene to even begin to explore the full significance of the City and at that point we’d be at 10 minutes before even giving control to the player.

It doesn't have to be a cutscene. You can place the player in the city and let them wander around as you come back from a mission. Your 'quest giver' could be in the city, and you could get and receive a few before the Cabal show up. Look at the Market in Uncharted 4. Not only are there hundreds of people that are each doing their own thing and don't appear to be on a repeating pattern, but they can react to you if you pass by or bump them.

Put us in the city and let us look around a bit.

Small touches are everything (to me, anyway).
Like that market that you mention: it's essentially just something between point A and point B in the game, but the way you can interact with things really makes it memorable. You can do little things like haggle with a vendor for an old relic, get and slowly eat an apple as you walk around, and interact with a man and his pet lemur... And if you're holding the apple when you interact with the lemur, he'll run up to you a few seconds later and steal the apple.

Another similar moment is in Wolfenstein: TNO. Between missions, you are free to walk around and get to know the people around you inside the base (sometimes by poking around at objects). They often have interesting things to say about the world, themselves, or your missions. It's optional, but it helps flesh out the world and people, and you start to feel invested in them, so when things go south, you know what and who you're fighting for.

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Small touches are everything (to me, anyway).

Yeah. That marketing trailer with Zavala, for just a second and for a little bit, made the world Bungie created actually feel kind of alive. Up until this point, that was utterly lacking. If years 1-3 were full of that type of thing, then we wouldn't be having this problem.

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Reserving judgement fully until the game ships. But…

Remember how the battle of Hoth started?

[image]

Those tiny dots are the Imperial Walkers. We see them coming from literally miles away. They are unstoppable, mowing everything down. Weapons do not harm them. Luke has to come up with a crazy plan to even take one down. They just keep marching. It's drawn out more, and there's a sense of dread and defeat.

Why does our character enter the fight so late? We make it to the tower near the end of the battle. Would it have not been better to put our character in the room with Zavala, Cayde, and Ikora (or even a time before this moment)? To feel the impending danger? To then take control running to our battle stations, like in Halo 2? To see the people of the tower begin to start to panic? When we enter the hallway with Shaxxx, there's all these civilians… but it doesn't register because we don't have a glimpse of the tower and all these people BEFORE the attack.

Why do we not save those civilians ourselves? Why do we not fight off cabal as we put people on ships out of there? Why do WE not discover the speaker is missing? I did not feel much agency or like what I was doing was actually helping things…

We meet with Amanda. The screen fades, and we go inside her cockpit as she flies around. We are supposed to be in the ship right? So why do we not see ourselves beamed aboard? Interact with Amanda? We don't even see ourselves get dropped off on the Cabal ship. Watch that cutscene… it's like we aren't even there. The first time, I was legitimately confused as to what I was supposed to be watching. All this shit should be in engine so our guardian can interact and feel a part of this world!

I didn't really ever feel like I was that much IN the battle. And by the time you do, it's over. It is the same problem with Destiny. There are all these wonderful threads of the world, yet they not all woven into a tapestry.

But given that, we have what could be a good villain and a potentially interesting road to defeat him. I had fun playing the mission, but I am not sure the quality of the storytelling is quite there yet. I get that Des2ny is an action game, but a little calm before the storm would have gone a long way.

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Reserving judgement fully until the game ships. But…

Remember how the battle of Hoth started?

Those tiny dots are the Imperial Walkers. We see them coming from literally miles away. They are unstoppable, mowing everything down. Weapons do not harm them. Luke has to come up with a crazy plan to even take one down. They just keep marching. It's drawn out more, and there's a sense of dread and defeat.

Why does our character enter the fight so late? We make it to the tower near the end of the battle. Would it have not been better to put our character in the room with Zavala, Cayde, and Ikora (or even a time before this moment)? To feel the impending danger? To then take control running to our battle stations, like in Halo 2? To see the people of the tower begin to start to panic? When we enter the hallway with Shaxxx, there's all these civilians… but it doesn't register because we don't have a glimpse of the tower and all these people BEFORE the attack.

Why do we not save those civilians ourselves? Why do we not fight off cabal as we put people on ships out of there? Why do WE not discover the speaker is missing? I did not feel much agency or like what I was doing was actually helping things…

We meet with Amanda. The screen fades, and we go inside her cockpit as she flies around. We are supposed to be in the ship right? So why do we not see ourselves beamed aboard? Interact with Amanda? We don't even see ourselves get dropped off on the Cabal ship. Watch that cutscene… it's like we aren't even there. The first time, I was legitimately confused as to what I was supposed to be watching. All this shit should be in engine so our guardian can interact and feel a part of this world!

I didn't really ever feel like I was that much IN the battle. And by the time you do, it's over. It is the same problem with Destiny. There are all these wonderful threads of the world, yet they not all woven into a tapestry.

But given that, we have what could be a good villain and a potentially interesting road to defeat him. I had fun playing the mission, but I am not sure the quality of the storytelling is quite there yet. I get that Des2ny is an action game, but a little calm before the storm would have gone a long way.

There was calm before the storm (or at least relative calm during a storm that turned out not to be just a storm). I grant that it might've been more exciting to be in the tower as we know it and have it be attacked, but you make it seem like there's no dramatic value in arriving there afterwards.

[image]

I liked how you can't tell where you are at first, then you realize you're in the hanger proper (where you've not been able to go before), then you're in spaces you know well (and joined by other guardians in the middle of story mission!), and then you progress to new spaces again. Also, we've never been able to control a character within a ship before, so why have that expectation now? Maybe they'd have to redesign the cockpit to show multiple characters.

I take several of your points, and the approach you suggest might have been effective, but I think you overstate how much more effective it would've been.

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Of his points the visible transmats into and out of the ship for communicative clarity are thenonly ones I'm reqlly behind. Your counter example is on point though, especially given the context of D2 arriving in from D1. I imagine my Guardian rarely spends any time in the tower that isn't necessary for resupply or repairs or the rare break to recover from a rough battle.

Coming back to a burning tower off a Patrol, out in the Wild, makes significantly more narrative sense than our Guardian just happening to be in the Vanguard command center doing what? Donating motes of light for reputation? Hanging out? Oggling our Exotic collection? I mean, that one is likely for some players I guess. Coming in from doing Guardian stuff and proceding to tear through Cabal to Do what needs to be done to protect the City makes for a better story if you ask me.

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Of his points the visible transmats into and out of the ship for communicative clarity are thenonly ones I'm reqlly behind. Your counter example is on point though, especially given the context of D2 arriving in from D1. I imagine my Guardian rarely spends any time in the tower that isn't necessary for resupply or repairs or the rare break to recover from a rough battle.

Coming back to a burning tower off a Patrol, out in the Wild, makes significantly more narrative sense than our Guardian just happening to be in the Vanguard command center doing what? Donating motes of light for reputation? Hanging out? Oggling our Exotic collection? I mean, that one is likely for some players I guess. Coming in from doing Guardian stuff and proceding to tear through Cabal to Do what needs to be done to protect the City makes for a better story if you ask me.

I guess my point is that if we see the tower as it was, full of life and people, then it hurts more to lose it.

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That's fair. I think player v. character knowledge could work there, like the intro cutscene could show off more day-to-day life prior to the attack.

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I guess my point is that if we see the tower as it was, full of life and people, then it hurts more to lose it.

There was an establishing shot that set it up.

It lasted three years.

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I guess my point is that if we see the tower as it was, full of life and people, then it hurts more to lose it.

There was an establishing shot that set it up.

It lasted three years.

For three years the tower was filled with NPCs who stood around and didn't act like people at all. The tower never felt 'alive'. Closest it came was in the ending.

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Although I would have loved to explore the Tower (and City) more than we were allowed to, it's not like we didn't know the places we knew like the back of our hand. At first I remember thinking that it was a pain to have to go to the droid to open the map of the Tower, but I very quickly realized how unnecessary a map was.

Cody, I think you're just being a backseat driver here (and one who has never driven). If you didn't feel a pang of recognition fighting through the hanger and so on, I don't know what to think. They've probably settled on this beginning early on, and to have built up more extensive new areas just to emphasize the loss the way you would want seems an impractical use of resources. I'm much happier that they've presumably used that time to develop more interesting areas that we could revisit.

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They've probably settled on this beginning early on, and to have built up more extensive new areas just to emphasize the loss the way you would want seems an impractical use of resources. I'm much happier that they've presumably used that time to develop more interesting areas that we could revisit.

This is what ultimately hurt the first game…

I am fully on board with Bungie's renewed interest in storytelling. But these are things you just have to do. You can't assume people will have a connection or care about something just because they are told to. If you want to tell a story, you have to really nail the needed elements! Sometimes it is hard, but you can be efficient and go a long way with a little.

That one picture does more to make me care about the city than all of Destiny. That one cinematic trailer with Zavala made me care more about him and the world than all of Destiny. Heck, that one shot of little Amanda did more for her character than all of Destiny.

Is anything like that in Des2ny? I hope so.

Moving forward, I predict that in the games industry this 'impractical use' of resources will eventually become necessary. It's the only way to climb out of the aesthetic / mechanical uncanny valley so many games are starting to fall into.

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They've probably settled on this beginning early on, and to have built up more extensive new areas just to emphasize the loss the way you would want seems an impractical use of resources. I'm much happier that they've presumably used that time to develop more interesting areas that we could revisit.

This is what ultimately hurt the first game…

I am fully on board with Bungie's renewed interest in storytelling. But these are things you just have to do. You can't assume people will have a connection or care about something just because they are told to. If you want to tell a story, you have to really nail the needed elements! Sometimes it is hard, but you can be efficient and go a long way with a little.

That one picture does more to make me care about the city than all of Destiny. That one cinematic trailer with Zavala made me care more about him and the world than all of Destiny. Heck, that one shot of little Amanda did more for her character than all of Destiny.

Is anything like that in Des2ny? I hope so.

Moving forward, I predict that in the games industry this 'impractical use' of resources will eventually become necessary. It's the only way to climb out of the aesthetic / mechanical uncanny valley so many games are starting to fall into.

Yes, it hurt the first game. Yes, it would have been nice to visit the city and have a better sense of a lived-in place, but it’s not like they didn’t have any sense of place and it’s not like they didn’t leverage what they had effectively in how they handled the first story mission. It’s a good, logical place to start the campaign (Korny predicted it with great accuracy months ago). I wouldn’t say that the difference between what they did and your fantasy of what they should have done justifies making predictions about what they (and the entire industry!) HAVE to do else be utter failures. The realization of art is always constrained by limitations. When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail? Building video games is a difficult. Bungie could’ve had us choose to go to the Tower from orbit first thing and made some of that stuff in the first cutscene happen in-game. I think that would’ve been better, but I don’t claim to know what the difficulties would have been to implement that or the opportunity costs involved. That’s what I dislike about your style of criticism, Cody. You dismiss such things as irrelevant and presume your idea is the only good solution. And only you can point out things they’ve done right (like in that Zavala cutscene) and still make it seem like you’re saying they’re dropping the ball.

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

Justice League is spending $25 million on reshoots as we speak.

That’s what I dislike about your style of criticism, Cody. You dismiss such things as irrelevant and presume your idea is the only good solution. And only you can point out things they’ve done right (like in that Zavala cutscene) and still make it seem like you’re saying they’re dropping the ball.

I think there is confusion… I'm not necessarily saying that Bungie is failing or dropping the ball with Des2ny. I am saying that the failings of Destiny carry over, and no matter how good of a job they do on Des2ny, there is damage that has been done. That can be difficult to overcome. There is no way to know until the game ships, but I suspect that they may have not done enough to mitigate Destiny's shortcomings, particularly with the talk about basically abandoning much of the first game's lore. That actually COULD turn out to be a good solution. But it might not. They appear to be doing a lot though!

I am probably guilty of making premature judgements, but the mission is described as the 'first mission'. So there is nothing between that and Rise of Iron except perhaps an opening cutscene.

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

That's good, but most of the time don't you use the material that you've got and make something good out of that? And sometimes is the ideal scene needed not possible or practical? Don't you have to get CREATIVE with the material in hand?

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

That's good, but most of the time don't you use the material that you've got and make something good out of that? And sometimes is the ideal scene needed not possible or practical? Don't you have to get CREATIVE with the material in hand?

Yes, that's a given.

But shooting a film is very different from making a game. Bungie doesn't HAVE to get creative with what they have when they are creating it all from scratch on their computers. They can 'have' whatever they want. The only issue is creative foresight, having skilled craftsmen / artists / designers on hand, and budget. To an extent this is true in film as well. This is why often the editor looks over the script in preproduction to look for issues. This is how an acquaintance of mine got to cut John Wick 2. In the interview he told the director about potential story problems. They realized he was right, hired him, and changed the script. And that movie kicks ass.

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

That's good, but most of the time don't you use the material that you've got and make something good out of that? And sometimes is the ideal scene needed not possible or practical? Don't you have to get CREATIVE with the material in hand?

Yes, that's a given.

But shooting a film is very different from making a game. Bungie doesn't HAVE to get creative with what they have when they are creating it all from scratch on their computers. They can 'have' whatever they want. The only issue is creative foresight, having skilled craftsmen / artists / designers on hand, and budget. To an extent this is true in film as well. This is why often the editor looks over the script in preproduction to look for issues. This is how an acquaintance of mine got to cut John Wick 2. In the interview he told the director about potential story problems. They realized he was right, hired him, and changed the script. And that movie kicks ass.

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

That's good, but most of the time don't you use the material that you've got and make something good out of that? And sometimes is the ideal scene needed not possible or practical? Don't you have to get CREATIVE with the material in hand?

Yes, that's a given.

But shooting a film is very different from making a game. Bungie doesn't HAVE to get creative with what they have when they are creating it all from scratch on their computers. They can 'have' whatever they want. The only issue is creative foresight, having skilled craftsmen / artists / designers on hand, and budget. To an extent this is true in film as well...

Just like when making a film, you can't have perfect foresight or a perfect plan. You get better ideas after you've started creating content, and at some point practical considerations come into play regarding how much content you can ditch and when you can start over. Bungie absolutely is not starting from scratch--they have established a universe, and some elements they've decided to keep while throwing away others. We agree it would've been cool to come into the Tower as it was and have the game start. Would the benefit have been worth the effort to pull that off? Maybe, but I don't know the technical challenges (and I don't think you do either). In my mind I thought you were also suggesting they build out sections of the city of have us involved in more actions to enhance the loss, but maybe you didn't say that. It's easy to ask for the sky, man. Harder to deliver. Bungie has a good track record of improving their games and learning from their mistakes (IMHO), so I'm hopeful that their foresight and planning is much better now, and just the tenor of the podcasts and interviews encourages me on that score.

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When you’re editing a film, do you write new scenes and demand they get filmed else the film will fail?

YES! Maybe not demand, but suggest after careful consideration. This happens all the time. Even if it as simple adding dialogue in ADR or getting insert shots. And yes, sometimes totally new scenes.

That's good, but most of the time don't you use the material that you've got and make something good out of that? And sometimes is the ideal scene needed not possible or practical? Don't you have to get CREATIVE with the material in hand?

Yes, that's a given.

But shooting a film is very different from making a game. Bungie doesn't HAVE to get creative with what they have when they are creating it all from scratch on their computers. They can 'have' whatever they want. The only issue is creative foresight, having skilled craftsmen / artists / designers on hand, and budget. To an extent this is true in film as well...

Just like when making a film, you can't have perfect foresight or a perfect plan. You get better ideas after you've started creating content, and at some point practical considerations come into play regarding how much content you can ditch and when you can start over. Bungie absolutely is not starting from scratch--they have established a universe, and some elements they've decided to keep while throwing away others. We agree it would've been cool to come into the Tower as it was and have the game start. Would the benefit have been worth the effort to pull that off? Maybe, but I don't know the technical challenges (and I don't think you do either). In my mind I thought you were also suggesting they build out sections of the city of have us involved in more actions to enhance the loss, but maybe you didn't say that. It's easy to ask for the sky, man. Harder to deliver. Bungie has a good track record of improving their games and learning from their mistakes (IMHO), so I'm hopeful that their foresight and planning is much better now, and just the tenor of the podcasts and interviews encourages me on that score.

I mean, yeah. If we are really supposed to be in invested, we absolutely should have been able to go into the city before it burned down. You posted the screen from Star Wars… we spend 20 minutes of the films runtime getting to know what he loses. Your point about benefit and effort is exactly what I'm trying to point out. Because we never did it in Destiny, we should have done it in Des2ny. Even if only in a cutscene.

Rise of the Guardians was scrapped when it was 3/4 done and completely redone. The only reason Dreamworks allowed it was that it was an animated movie, done entirely in computers… "reshooting" didn't mean reshooting.

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Just like when making a film, you can't have perfect foresight or a perfect plan. You get better ideas after you've started creating content, and at some point practical considerations come into play regarding how much content you can ditch and when you can start over. Bungie absolutely is not starting from scratch--they have established a universe, and some elements they've decided to keep while throwing away others. We agree it would've been cool to come into the Tower as it was and have the game start. Would the benefit have been worth the effort to pull that off? Maybe, but I don't know the technical challenges (and I don't think you do either). In my mind I thought you were also suggesting they build out sections of the city of have us involved in more actions to enhance the loss, but maybe you didn't say that. It's easy to ask for the sky, man. Harder to deliver. Bungie has a good track record of improving their games and learning from their mistakes (IMHO), so I'm hopeful that their foresight and planning is much better now, and just the tenor of the podcasts and interviews encourages me on that score.

I mean, yeah. If we are really supposed to be in invested, we absolutely should have been able to go into the city before it burned down. You posted the screen from Star Wars… we spend 20 minutes of the films runtime getting to know what he loses. Your point about benefit and effort is exactly what I'm trying to point out. Because we never did it in Destiny, we should have done it in Des2ny. Even if only in a cutscene.

Rise of the Guardians was scrapped when it was 3/4 done and completely redone. The only reason Dreamworks allowed it was that it was an animated movie, done entirely in computers… "reshooting" didn't mean reshooting.

I continue to think that you underestimate how hard it is to make great video games. I recently listened to a commentary about Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. The main guy who led that team had been a filmmaker with several feature films under this belt. He said making a video game was much, much harder than anything else he had done. I believe it.

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I continue to think that you underestimate how hard it is to make great video games. I recently listened to a commentary about Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. The main guy who led that team had been a filmmaker with several feature films under this belt. He said making a video game was much, much harder than anything else he had done. I believe it.

I know it's hard. In fact, I will say with certainty that video games are the hardest artforms to make. And as they get more sophisticated (and thus better), they will only get harder. But just because it's hard, doesn't mean you get to not do the things you need to do to get people to care about your story and world. Yes, it's harder, but the rewards are greater. The penalties are also greater if you falter.

You think a filmmaker complains about the daunting task of having to build and shoot wonderful worlds, that an author only has to describe with words? So yeah, you could make that complaint, but then the guy who goes and does it is the one who makes the movies that inspire people.

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I continue to think that you underestimate how hard it is to make great video games. I recently listened to a commentary about Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons. The main guy who led that team had been a filmmaker with several feature films under this belt. He said making a video game was much, much harder than anything else he had done. I believe it.

I know it's hard. In fact, I will say with certainty that video games are the hardest artforms to make. And as they get more sophisticated (and thus better), they will only get harder. But just because it's hard, doesn't mean you get to not do the things you need to do to get people to care about your story and world. Yes, it's harder, but the rewards are greater. The penalties are also greater if you falter.

You think a filmmaker complains about the daunting task of having to build and shoot wonderful worlds, that an author only has to describe with words? So yeah, you could make that complaint, but then the guy who goes and does it is the one who makes the movies that inspire people.

Is Bungie complaining? We hope for the same things. As usual, I suspect it's that your expression of this hope comes across as entitled arrogance. (It could well be just me.)

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Is Bungie complaining?

No, but your argument was ostensibly that because it's harder to make video games, developers can therefore skimp. The audience doesn't care how hard something is to make. They only feel their connection to the game.

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Is Bungie complaining?

No, but your argument was ostensibly that because it's harder to make video games, developers can therefore skimp. The audience doesn't care how hard something is to make. They only feel their connection to the game.

That's not my argument. I don't want Bungie to skimp. I think they started this game at a perfectly fine place that will allow them to build new content and new worlds going forward. I'm not asking them to correct the deficits of the first game before they can move forward. If the loss of the tower didn't affect you, that's the fault of D1, not D2. A sequel needs to start with dramatic action, not backtracking. Between the character building that happened in the expansions, the Zavala backstory vid, and the initial cutscene of the beta, I think they've given us the set up they've needed to for what happens next.

You remind me of people I've met in workshops who obsess over their pet idea for a scene they want you to add without thinking about the big picture.

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Is Bungie complaining?

No, but your argument was ostensibly that because it's harder to make video games, developers can therefore skimp. The audience doesn't care how hard something is to make. They only feel their connection to the game.

That's not my argument.

Sorry. I misinterpreted then.

You remind me of people I've met in workshops who obsess over their pet idea for a scene they want you to add without thinking about the big picture.

I feel like this is big picture stuff…

No way to know just yet. I am optimistic here. I don't want it to seem like I am shitting on them. That opening mission was worlds better in terms of world building than a lot of what has come before.

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Let's be clear here. There has been no talk of abandoning lore. Here's the "worst" of the quotes, the ones that come closest to supporting your point of view:

“We’re exploring the relationship between the player and the Ghost in terms of Light, and Ghaul’s coveting of the Light. As such, we wanted to carve off other things that we didn’t think were important to the release, such as words like The Darkness.”

“So, I think that at a point, just totally candidly? We had no idea what it was,” Smith told Kotaku. “Straight up. We had no clue.”

Smith explained that because Bungie’s writers didn’t know what the Darkness was, they just decided to “lump all the races” together as “minions of the Darkness.” But he admitted that players — and the game itself — deserve a better explanation.

But these need to be paired with the full message Luke and the others were actually trying to get across:

“We’ve never really said what [The Darkness] means,” Smith continues. “Ultimately, we do owe our players a story there – what is The Darkness? – but that’s not this game. We wanted to remove as much of the extra terminology as possible and focus on telling the Destiny 2 story. In so doing, allow Destiny 2 to usher in the rest of the saga. It’s going to start some threads that we intend to carry through.”

“Because when we’re going to talk about Darkness next, we need to know what it is and have a plan for it,” said Smith. “And we do.”

To frame it as Bungie abandoning lore is in no way fair to what was actually being said. If anything, they plan on actually exploring things like the Traveler, Light, and The Darkness in-game. Just not all at the same time or in the same release.

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To frame it as Bungie abandoning lore is in no way fair to what was actually being said. If anything, they plan on actually exploring things like the Traveler, Light, and The Darkness in-game. Just not all at the same time or in the same release.

Fine yes, but you know what I mean. In Des2ny these things take a backseat to Ghaul.

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To frame it as Bungie abandoning lore is in no way fair to what was actually being said. If anything, they plan on actually exploring things like the Traveler, Light, and The Darkness in-game. Just not all at the same time or in the same release.

Fine yes, but you know what I mean. In Des2ny these things take a backseat to Ghaul.

So what?

Team Dai-Gurren didn’t have their massive, universe-scale battle against the Anti-Spirals in episode 1 of Gurren Lagann.
Neither did Hiro Nakamura, Clair Bennett, Peter Petrelli, and the other Heroes go up against Sylar right off the bat.
Same with Sheridan and Delenn. They didn’t so much as fire a shot at a Shadow vessel until they were 3 seasons (45 episodes) in to Babylon 5.

Yet all of these had compelling stories and excellent build ups to when the main characters finally engaged their universes’ big bads. And, of course, that’s just the top three examples off the top of my head. Having an ultimate villain in the background while the heroes build up to it is hardly a unique concept.

If Bungie has decided to put The Darkness in the background for a bit or even a whole game while they build up to it by focusing on how it in the past decimated or influenced or motivated the Cabal and other races that invaded our system, well then that’s just fine.

As long as we get good stories and good villains and good gameplay and an overarching plot progression that makes sense, I’m good with leaving things like The Darkness (a potentially multi-dimensional embodiment of chaos and evil) in the background for as long as it takes to make finally encountering it as good as it should be.

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As long as we get good stories and good villains and good gameplay and an overarching plot progression that makes sense, I’m good with leaving things like The Darkness (a potentially multi-dimensional embodiment of chaos and evil) in the background for as long as it takes to make finally encountering it as good as it should be.

I'm down with this idea. Oryx got totally embarrassed, right? Aside from the Taken showing up every now and then, it could seem like we finally dealt with the Darkness. Then years later, boy were we wrong. Something with the Queen and Eris or who knows what. There's room here for greatness after the failure of D1's "story" presentation. Still not hype on story, but the Beta was in no way, shape, or form designed to help me be. September's gonna be here in no time, though.

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I guess my point is that if we see the tower as it was, full of life and people, then it hurts more to lose it.

That's a very good point.

I hope Bungie gives us a more robust opening than exists in the Beta. I doubt it though. They seem to put more story related content in their marketing commercials.

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Of his points the visible transmats into and out of the ship for communicative clarity are thenonly ones I'm reqlly behind. Your counter example is on point though, especially given the context of D2 arriving in from D1. I imagine my Guardian rarely spends any time in the tower that isn't necessary for resupply or repairs or the rare break to recover from a rough battle.

Coming back to a burning tower off a Patrol, out in the Wild, makes significantly more narrative sense than our Guardian just happening to be in the Vanguard command center doing what? Donating motes of light for reputation? Hanging out? Oggling our Exotic collection? I mean, that one is likely for some players I guess. Coming in from doing Guardian stuff and proceding to tear through Cabal to Do what needs to be done to protect the City makes for a better story if you ask me.

Our guardian being absent when the attack starts could actually be used as a dramatic point of character development. What if our guardian feels guilty for being absent, and must deal with those feelings? Or what if others cast blame at us for not being there? Lots of potential, but who knows if anything like that will actually play out in the game.

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Our guardian being absent when the attack starts could actually be used as a dramatic point of character development. What if our guardian feels guilty for being absent, and must deal with those feelings? Or what if others cast blame at us for not being there? Lots of potential, but who knows if anything like that will actually play out in the game.

[image]

Our Guardian seems even more silent this time. I would be surprised if suddenly s/he became a real character.

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Unlikely, but other characters taking it out on them is totally within reason.

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And this happens after we get to know Owen and Beru for over 20 minutes. This is my point exactly.

Also, we've never been able to control a character within a ship before, so why have that expectation now? Maybe they'd have to redesign the cockpit to show multiple characters.

Sorry if this wasn't clear, but I think it would have been better had our character never been flying his or her ship to begin with. In the tower, the whole time. If you were coming back, you could have come back as the attack was first seen. Maybe your ship has to dodge a cabal scout. So many good possibilities.

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When we enter the hallway with Shaxxx, there's all these civilians… but it doesn't register because we don't have a glimpse of the tower and all these people BEFORE the attack.

I get that Des2ny is an action game, but a little calm before the storm would have gone a long way.

I guess my point is that if we see the tower as it was, full of life and people, then it hurts more to lose it.

And this happens after we get to know Owen and Beru for over 20 minutes. This is my point exactly.

Where were you the last three years? More specifically, where were you when the Speaker declared a new “Age of Triumph” because of our actions in helping clear out our enemies? We have seen the Tower as it was. Now we get to see it under attack.

But that wasn’t this game? Tough. Sometimes to get the most out of an ongoing story you need to invest in the previous parts. Or am I suppose to care for Luke, Han, and Chewie right out of the gate in Empire without having watched Star Wars?

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"Gameplay"
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Environments
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Crucible
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Story
[image]

Music
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Loot Grind / Investment System
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Eververse
[image]

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So, how is it? (Destiny)

So, how is it?

nice!

Hype for 2

Xenos is streaming!

Xenos is streaming.....orbit

Initial impressions are... bad.

Noooooo

Noooooo

good, shoulder charge was bad

MK.44 Stand Asides were my go-to Y1 Titan Crucible exotic...

MK.44 Stand Asides were my go-to Y1 Titan Crucible exotic...

MK.44 Stand Asides were my go-to Y1 Titan Crucible exotic...

MK.44 Stand Asides were my go-to Y1 Titan Crucible exotic...

Well, that bodes well...

Noooooo

Lets be honest. Shoulder charge was OP.

Agreed

I dispute this.

False

False

False

Finally, a good point.

Finally, a good point.

Word.

Also, to clarify:

Also, to clarify:

Also, to clarify:

Also, to clarify:

False

Uh-Uh.

Uh-Uh.

Uh-Uh.

Hell, Even In Real Life.

Oh, give me a break.

Break me off a pice of that Kit Kat bar...

Oh, give me a break.

Oh, give me a break.

Hey Cyber!

Hey Cyber!

Hey Cyber!

Hey Cyber!

Hey Cyber!

This.

Eh.

Eh.

"Stationary position" everyone

"Not Sprinting" Position, Everybody!

That's not what you said at all.

Ready For The Best Part?

Ready For The Best Part?

Oh Definitely.

I want to play your version of the game.

Drop some acid, find an old 28.8k modem, and you're in.

Instructions Unclear

You Got It!

Irony?

Not Strongest, Longest.

Not Strongest, Longest.

Initial impressions are... bad.

I was talking from a Purely PvE perspective.

Initial impressions are... bad.

^

Initial impressions (warlock)

Could this be due to low level and dumpy white guns?

Could this be due to low level and dumpy white guns?

Uh oh.

Everything is Legen....wait for it....

I love you even more now.

Initial impressions are... good.

Initial impressions are... good.

Slower [Titan Class comments]

[Hunter Class comments]

[Warlock Class/General comments] *Possible Spoilers* /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] *Possible Spoilers* /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] *Possible Spoilers* /long/

Hedge beat us both

[Warlock Class/General comments] McCartney Lives in D2

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

[Warlock Class/General comments] Possible Spoilers /long/

^NMPost NM