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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers) (Destiny)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:14 (2391 days ago)
edited by Cody Miller, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:19

Did you miss me? Thank Beorn for giving me my first ever ban from a bungie.org forum.

Let’s talk about the story. At the end of the day when the credits rolled, I thought to myself “wow, what a journey!”. Contrast this with “Wait… that’s it? Seriously?” after finishing Destiny. I think Bungie is off my narrative shit list! Des2ny is canon! I am very glad they put the effort in.

This doesn’t mean that it was perfect. In fact, there were a lot of problems with the story. Many minor ones, but actually some very major ones that undermined the drama, and made confusing the established rules of the universe. I was actually very worried for a while. But, at the end of the day it worked. This is what happens when you connect, and make a game that's actually about something!

Consider this my opinion on the story.

Connecting Tissue

The first thing I noticed, was that Des2ny lacked a great deal of connections between the events in the story. Many are either not shown, or not explained.

For instance, how did we survive the fall after the first story mission? We are without light. Weak. And I’ve seen what happens when people hit the ground at terminal velocity. That makes you not alive. After playing the Beta, my guess was that Amanda would dive her ship down to save you and you’d grab on. She’d try to drop you off, but she’d be shot down and crash, throwing you off. Instead… we don’t really see what happens. Our guardian stands up from a crater. This kind of undermines the drama does it not? If we can survive a fall like that, without our light, then what can actually kill our character? I was confused as to how this happened.

Zavala says that he needs his fireteam. After the cutscene ends, a message pops up that tells us Nessus is a new available destination. Out of the blue! How would my guardian, or anyone for that matter know that’s where Cayde went? How did they find out this information? You need more of a reason than “it’s time to go to Nessus”. There’s no connection presented, and so it feels like you are just going from destination to destination without a reason. That’s not good for storytelling.

Cayde is on Nessus to get a Vex teleporter. Why did he want that? He doesn’t know he’s going to need to use it in the fashion he does later in the story. Again, the reason for him running off can’t just be “so he has the teleporter for us to use later in the city”. It needs to make sense to us and the character.

On Io, we do something with a Warmind… which has no connection to anything. Maybe I just don’t remember, but how did anything we did on Io lead to Ikora coming back? Again, we lack the narrative / logical / emotional connections here.

Things in your stories don’t happen just because. They happen for a reason. A reason which makes sense to the characters. Not because you need to start the third act. Not because you need to get your characters somewhere else. But because the decisions your characters make lead them down the path. Good stories do not feel arbitrary in what happens. It should all feel natural and flow from the characters and their interactions and conflicts.

Fortunately, things picked up near the end. But more care needs to be taken with this stuff. It’s pretty basic and easy to identify with the famous South Park “therefore / but” storytelling. The gist is that you should be able to connect your narrative points with ‘therefore’ or ‘but’. If you find yourself using ‘and’ then you are in trouble. This happens, therefore that happens. Not, this happens, and then this happens. Too much of the early part of Des2ny’s story was the latter.

Plot Holes

Plot holes are things which basically stop the narrative as presented in its tracks, or otherwise just unravel the logic or render the drama inert. Des2ny has three!

First: We get our light back from a shard of the Traveler. There is no indication that it is a one time thing. In fact, we go back twice more to unlock our other subclasses. So, when Zavala is all sad his light is gone, why did our Guardian not just say “Uh, hey. If you go to this shard of the traveler you can get your light back.” Seriously. I mean, worth a shot right? Nothing as presented indicates that this is not an option or otherwise something not worth trying. I’m sorry, but that’s literally the first thing that would happen. Your guardian would either tell them to go check out the shard, or other guardians would ask you how you got your light back and try it for themselves. An easy fix would have been to have the shard fizzle out, or otherwise indicate that there wasn’t any light left after you got yours back. But Bungie didn’t do that. Really dumb mistake!

Second: Can the light be taken or not? The speaker tells Gaul that the light can’t be taken; it can only be given. Then, in a mission on Io we check out an experiment which was trying to extract light and give it to other lifeforms. At the end of the mission we are told the experiment failed and that won’t work. Okay, so the game is telling us Gaul can’t take the light. But does this not completely nullify Gaul’s storyline? The traveler sure as shit isn’t going to give Gaul its light… so he’s failed before he’s even begun. But oops, I guess he can take it after all, as that’s what he does for the finale. So why on Earth would Bungie be setting up the rules of light such that they completely remove any drama or worry with regards to Gaul, and then go and just break that rule? Worse, it just makes all the scenes with the speaker pure wheel spinning where no plot propulsion is happening. We learn about him and his past, which is good, but no actions actually materialize from this that matter within the overall narrative.

Third: Related to the second. Where is the threat of Gaul’s ship blowing up the sun? If he blew up the sun, it would destroy Earth and the Traveler, and he’d never get what he came for. So as long as Gaul doesn’t have the Traveler’s light, we know 100% that the Earth is safe. But it’s played up to be this threat that actually isn’t a threat. When we go to the ship, it’s in the process of harvesting Mercury. Who cares about Mercury? Nobody. We care about the Sun and the Earth. And so I wondered why I was going to blow this thing up when it wasn’t the most immediate threat. To do this right dramatically, the order needed to be this:

Assault to take back the city.
Gaul takes the light, and hands everyone their asses.
Now Gaul has what he came for and starts to blow up the sun.
Now you steal the ship and stop that from happening.
Then you face him in the final showdown.

See how much more sense that makes? How it’s more dramatic and meaningful? As presented in game, it’s:

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.

There is so much more drama and catharsis if you order the events correctly as I did.

Tell, don’t show.

Speaking of the Starkiller ship, its presentation is out of the blue. I think we pull up some data to discover it right? But we get our information from a cutscene that’s completely out of context. We are TOLD all about the ship, but it’s ineffective because it’s not presented in a dramatic way. Remember the Death Star? We see it blow up Alderan. That’s why when it’s orbiting Yavin to take out the rebel base, we’re like “Oh shit!”. Somewhere in the narrative, our character needs to encounter this ship or otherwise witness firsthand its destruction for it to feel like a real threat. We should see how powerful is, then through the story uncover Gaul’s plan to blow up the sun. This is kinda basic stuff. Don’t just tell us shit, but have us live it. See it. Experience it.

Setups an non-payoffs

Ikora wonders about being mortal. About whether she could actually fight and risk her life knowing it’s the last one left. An interesting moment for her character, and something she’d definitely be wresting with. The speaker then talks about how bravery means death through sacrifice. Okay. Bungie is setting it up so Ikora finds her bravery, and sacrifices herself to aid the player in the last stand against Gaul. A nice satisfying character arc right? She could even come back to life when the Traveler reawakens and sends out its light. That way you could have your cake and eat it too, without breaking any established rules of the narrative universe. But… that didn’t happen. Nothing becomes of the setup, and it ends up being all talk. If you are going to bring up these themes, and you really want to hammer them home then you have these themes resonate in the characters and be part of arcs. Like, this is the kind of thing that makes stories GREAT rather than just good. Bungie could have even gone farther and have Cayde learn to be a team player or something. Again, the setup was all there, but it was wasted!

Who cares about the speaker?

After being so concerned in the opening mission, Ikora seems to forget about the speaker, as does everybody else. No rescue mission? Just have every character show no interest at all in him? Well, okay then.

A scary enemy

Gaul and the red legion are the main antagonists in the game right? So why does it feel like we never are dealing with them in the middle of the story? After the city falls, we fight the fallen… on Titan its the Hive. Then the Vex on Nessus. It’s like, we are getting side tracked. They don’t really reappear until the very end of the game. The red legion felt like a distant threat rather than a formidable foe. When we get our light back, and Gaul hears about it, he should be on a mission to fuck us up personally. Throw everything he has at us, and make us feel like we are clawing and scraping our way to victory. Because, who cares what the Fallen or the Vex or the Hive are up to while the story is unfolding? Leave that shit for the post-story missions. Give us a focus and make Gaul trying to hunt our ass down. Don’t just have him hang out the whole time with the speaker and not try to hinder us. If so, then when we win, it’s sweeter! It doesn’t ever feel like they are chasing us or a threat in the middle of the game. They do attack Io, but it’s not clear why and for what. Something about the cage? Again, connective tissue.

And the Taken… they seriously don’t need to be in main story at all.

It’s fine to involve the other races tangentially, but not at the expense of your main villains.

Choked

Why does Gaul choke his mentor, only to then turn around and do exactly what his mentor wanted? Stupid.

We built this city

In a perfect world, we’d be in the city while the assault happens so we have a nice before and after. That way when we revisit the city it would be even better. When we get up after falling, we are in this tiny area of the city. I get what Bungie was going for, but would it not have been better to put us farther away, or in a place inside the city (on a hilltop or something) where we could see the destruction on a large scale? Putting us in a tiny corner where we can’t see anything… I don’t know, it didn’t work so well.

AI Characters

I’m putting this here, because I think it’s more story related. Imagine Halo without the marines. ODST without the crew of ODSTs. Wouldn’t be as good right? But Destiny and Des2ny have zero friendly AI characters. Seriously. Des2ny shows you the three Vanguard leaders in little scripted moments, but they and nobody else actually fight along side you through the course of the game. I understand that other players’ guardians are supposed to fill in the world, but as the quality of the narrative increases, the lack of AI allies starts to hurt the story.

Imagine how much cooler it would be, if civilians are taking up arms and fighting off the cabal with you in the opening mission. Or Cayde being by your side while looking for the Vex tech, able to quip or just talk to you. It’s what gives the Naughty Dog games such life, and there were so many opportunities here that would have been wonderful.

Prerendered cutscenes.

It’s really obvious when we switch to prerendered scenes, and not only is the quality yet again bad in terms of compression, but it limits us where we have to hide our guardian. As far as the quality goes, the game install was 13 GB. So there is literally half the disc left. Give me a 30 Mbps Bluray encode on my disc. Give the people who downloaded the game the shitty versions of the cutscenes. But the real reason this is a bad decision is your guardian being absent from them. The facial animations and stuff in the in engine cutscenes look pretty good, so why isn’t everything in engine?

It’s also just ridiculous that our guardian never speaks. Come. On.

Des2ny makes Halo 5's story look like Battlefield Earth, even with the above problems.

So despite all this, the story was a monumental improvement over Destiny. I was satisfied after finishing the game, and looking forward to more. Still, it was very flawed, and I’d love to see Bungie make the step to ‘great’ with the next game, or DLC. The improvement is much enjoyed, and des2ny.isnotcanon.net will be forever a blank domain.

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Xbone game install was over 30 gb iirc.

by Funkmon @, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:28 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:30 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Cayde is on Nessus to get a Vex teleporter. Why did he want that? He doesn’t know he’s going to need to use it in the fashion he does later in the story. Again, the reason for him running off can’t just be “so he has the teleporter for us to use later in the city”. It needs to make sense to us and the character.

Just a nitpick, I guess, but Cayde literally tells us he was getting the teleporter so he could use it to get to Ghaul's ship and kill him.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:35 (2391 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Cayde is on Nessus to get a Vex teleporter. Why did he want that? He doesn’t know he’s going to need to use it in the fashion he does later in the story. Again, the reason for him running off can’t just be “so he has the teleporter for us to use later in the city”. It needs to make sense to us and the character.


Just a nitpick, I guess, but Cayde literally tells us he was getting the teleporter so he could use it to get to Ghaul's ship and kill him.

I understood that scene as, he did the rogue Cayde thing, had his own grande plan using the teleporter, then learned that Zavala "needed him" so he jumped into Zavalas plan and brought the teleporter with him.

The rest of Cody's post was pretty accurate though. It was a great game that had some flaws but the game was still great despite the flaws. There were a lot of gaps to fill in but they weren't so far stretching that we couldn't fill them with a universe friendly logical reason.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:36 (2391 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Cayde is on Nessus to get a Vex teleporter. Why did he want that? He doesn’t know he’s going to need to use it in the fashion he does later in the story. Again, the reason for him running off can’t just be “so he has the teleporter for us to use later in the city”. It needs to make sense to us and the character.


Just a nitpick, I guess, but Cayde literally tells us he was getting the teleporter so he could use it to get to Ghaul's ship and kill him.

Okay, then I blame myself for not catching that.

Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by grantixtechno, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:32 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I agree with a lot of what you've put down here. But I want to add on to your Setups and Non-Payoffs section.

Not only are we setup for Ikora's death through her musings, but we're setup, in my opinion, for Ghaul's redemption.

Granted, there's not enough material in the story between Ghaul and Consul to highlight a redemptive or transitional arc for the character. But, I felt, that it very much started to set up for Consul to be the greater threat, a puppet-master behind the curtain. Ghaul wanted to be chosen, not take the Light. I thought maybe Ghaul would refuse Consul's plan, but Consul would usurp his power over the Red Legion, and try to "take care of" Ghaul, and perhaps Ghaul would fight back, and maybe sacrifice himself to protect the Traveler from having it's Light taken, as he is interested in being Chosen. (Though, in all of this, it was our character who was Chosen....) Plus, Ghaul is in a white get-up. It seemed so telegraphed to me. But I guess not. Just another lousy boss who was a lousy villain.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:41 (2391 days ago) @ grantixtechno

I agree with a lot of what you've put down here. But I want to add on to your Setups and Non-Payoffs section.

Not only are we setup for Ikora's death through her musings, but we're setup, in my opinion, for Ghaul's redemption.

Granted, there's not enough material in the story between Ghaul and Consul to highlight a redemptive or transitional arc for the character. But, I felt, that it very much started to set up for Consul to be the greater threat, a puppet-master behind the curtain. Ghaul wanted to be chosen, not take the Light. I thought maybe Ghaul would refuse Consul's plan, but Consul would usurp his power over the Red Legion, and try to "take care of" Ghaul, and perhaps Ghaul would fight back, and maybe sacrifice himself to protect the Traveler from having it's Light taken, as he is interested in being Chosen. (Though, in all of this, it was our character who was Chosen....) Plus, Ghaul is in a white get-up. It seemed so telegraphed to me. But I guess not. Just another lousy boss who was a lousy villain.

I'm not as hard on Gaul as you. I think they idea of someone who all his life had to fight to prove himself worthy, yet be forced watch a race he sees as undeserving of the light is a good motivation and backstory. It's just that he spent the whole came chatting with the speaker.

I think that could have worked, had they made Gaul a servant of the Emperor, much like the Arbiter was the servant of the prophets. But I am also completely fine with Gaul being the total bad guy. There would have had to be a lot more setup for your idea to work, but it definitely could have if done right.

I was initially surprised that he died in the story. I thought for sure when he turned into that huge spirit, that that was the raid boss we'd have to destroy. On one hand, it would have been satisfying to take that down. But on the other, we did that with Oryx so the surprise was kind of nice.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 09:53 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

My biggest issue is that Ghaul seems like a chump next to Oryx. It's weird, Ghaul is the one who took the City and stole our Light, but Oryx still feels like he was a bigger threat. And I think that's because, as you said, Ghaul never did anything during the campaign. And, as you said, it never really felt like he was the focus of the story. It was still space road trip around the system.

As weird as it might have been for a Destiny game, I can see a version of this story where we spend the whole time on Earth (Hi, Halo 2!). I thought the angle with Hawthorne was neat--do we stay and help the refugees, or go and answer Zavala. But that is asked, and then never brought up again. It needed more of that, and a more Earth and its people focused story would have be cool, I think.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 19:04 (2391 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Earth and the Almighty. That's really all the locations you need for the story to work.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 11, 2017, 08:27 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Earth and the Almighty. That's really all the locations you need for the story to work.

I just beat the campaign with my 2nd character last night. Unlike my first playthrough, where I spent a lot of time doing adventures and quests in between story missions, this time I mainlined the campaign missions with as few detours as possible. In terms of the raw plot of the game, Nessus, Titan, and Io feel almost throwaway. You land, do 1 or 2 missions, then off to the next planet. Nothing of consequential substance happens on any of them, short of stealing the vex teleporter (plot device) and Ikora discerning Gaul's plan (which didn't really need to happen... the guardian's could easily have been motivated to retake the city without knowing what Gaul's ultimate goal was).

Not that I'm complaining really. I like that each planet's patrol/adventure/quest missions tell their own side stories. But it does make the whole "trip around the galaxy" feel somewhat contrived.

Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by grantixtechno, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 10:05 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It's just that he spent the whole came chatting with the speaker.

I think this is probably one of my largest gripes. I'm supposed to believe he's some big bad dude, who has destroyed suns and conquered worlds, but all this hombre has done is get 3rd degree burns from the Speaker. And he dares think he can take on me? I've fought the time spanning Vex, slain a Darkness God, and annihilated a Machine God. I've killed Gods, multiple. And this guy shows up, talks a bunch, and then thinks he can take me on? Dude, I killed you on my own, no fire team. Give me a break.

I'm not as hard on Gaul as you.

Stripped of all gameplay, and brought down to the bare story of the game, I struggle to find the major theme of the story, and particularly, his part in it. What does Ghaul represent? Greed? I guess. He kind of acts like a brat who wants a friend's toys, but those toys are beyond his abilities to use. Is the theme of the story that no person can achieve greatness and embody the light (good) unless they are chosen by some higher being? That's kind of messed up. If beings chose to be good, could they be inheritors of the light? That's a far more interesting question that could have been answered by the story with Ghaul changing sides. Instead we're left with some generic baddie who falls before our invincible bad-assery.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the game, I'm having the most fun playing this that I've had in ages. I'm probably more intrigued by aspects of this games mysteries than I am at mysteries present in blockbusters like Legend of Zelda Breath of the Wild. But that doesn't mean I don't want better writing.

At the core of better writing, and better stories, are good characters. All of stories, literature, movies, or otherwise, are examinations of people and their relationships, whether that's with other people, themselves, or nature. Something I feel is missing from Destiny is true character exploration, and interaction. By and far it mostly feels like a plot line of loosely, barely connected action set-pieces, like a Michael Bay film. Don't worry about character development, check out this super awesome spaceship that's devouring Mercury and going to blow up the sun. (I mean, it was super freaking cool)

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 10:15 (2391 days ago) @ grantixtechno
edited by Cody Miller, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 10:18

Is the theme of the story that no person can achieve greatness and embody the light (good) unless they are chosen by some higher being? That's kind of messed up. If beings chose to be good, could they be inheritors of the light? That's a far more interesting question that could have been answered by the story with Ghaul changing sides. Instead we're left with some generic baddie who falls before our invincible bad-assery.

Now that you mention it, it does seem you are right about this. And yeah, that's actually a pretty troubling interpretation of the story as presented. It's disturbing even. Nobody asked our Guardian if they wanted to wield the light and be immortal. It's been thrust upon us.

The Traveler / Loving God comparison really does make the story seem anti human doesn't it? Rather than the light being a power we can conjure from within, by our strength of spirit and will, it's a power given to those who were chosen by the Traveler / God. In that sense, there's really no heroism at all if we have the light.

I think the redeeming quality here is that humanity doesn't have to serve the Traveler the way man has to serve God. So you can cast it aside should you choose, because the Traveler isn't going to judge you on death or otherwise force you to obey its laws.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Harmanimus @, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 10:37 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This conversation is an interesting thought. Though personally I think the key aspect of Ghaul's story is that he is very definitely a pawn. He is a tool for someone elses desires. And when the chips fall he is still just an angry child. When he is about to outgrow his usefulness he has a tantrum. He is a threat because of the powers at his command. Alone he is pitiful, even when he is harnessing light (other races also harness the light without being chosen) the danger is solely because he is throwing a fit and you are the focus of his malcontent.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 11:05 (2391 days ago) @ Harmanimus

This conversation is an interesting thought. Though personally I think the key aspect of Ghaul's story is that he is very definitely a pawn. He is a tool for someone elses desires. And when the chips fall he is still just an angry child. When he is about to outgrow his usefulness he has a tantrum. He is a threat because of the powers at his command. Alone he is pitiful, even when he is harnessing light (other races also harness the light without being chosen) the danger is solely because he is throwing a fit and you are the focus of his malcontent.

Yeah, he's basically Joffrey Baratheon, right?

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by RaichuKFM @, Northeastern Ohio, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 11:56 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I largely agree! Although I'm more forgiving of the flaws, probably. I have some more explanations on the plot holes, though.

I think we find out Cayde is on Nessus because of Failsafe's signal, though we only encounter said signal in game after already getting there. It's just poorly done? Looking back you put this in the connective tissue part, so, yeah.

The thing with the Warmind was to analyze the Almighty; and once you find out Zavala's plan is doomed to fail, it gives Ikora more reason to come with you. I suppose I can easily see where one might think this didn't have enough connection with Ikora's arc, though I personally thought it worked just fine.

I think the tension of disabling the Almighty made more sense from the perspective of the characters than the player, because while Ikora guessed the Cabal wanted to take the Light, they didn't know that Gaul was obsessed with it. For all they knew, the Red Legion would be okay blowing up the Sun if they had to to stop the counterattack, even if it meant losing their shot at the Light. So I don't think it was bad storytelling, but it was not optimal, either, and your idea might have been the way to go.

Gaul was an interesting villain, really, and I actually like how philosophical he was. It maybe wasn't the best route, but that last scene with the Consul really vindicated the structure of how you're running around and doing things mostly ancillary to the Red Legion until the end stretch, for me. If anything, I would have liked to see more reflection and conversation, even without more action.

On another note, I guess this means we maybe have a better idea of the consequences of Destiny 1's campaign ending. Now that we know that the Traveler was purposefully dormant- we helped it to quietly recuperate, by eliminating the Wizards draining its Light, and also by getting rid of the Heart of Darkness in The Black Garden I guess? I still don't really get that part; it seems like it should have been more empowering the Darkness than weakening the Traveler, if anything. Was there more explanation of it in Grimoire cards I missed? (Man, I still have to read all of that, some time.)

(I balk at the "therefore/but" rule, but I balk at storytelling 'rules' in general, because blah blah subjectivity. I felt like mentioning this for completeness' sake but don't actually want to talk about it, because my argument is mainly esoteric and irrelevant to the spirit of storytelling guidelines.)

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, September 13, 2017, 23:41 (2388 days ago) @ RaichuKFM

(I balk at the "therefore/but" rule, but I balk at storytelling 'rules' in general, because blah blah subjectivity. I felt like mentioning this for completeness' sake but don't actually want to talk about it, because my argument is mainly esoteric and irrelevant to the spirit of storytelling guidelines.)

Blindly following the 'rules' without a sense of the underlying dramatic principles they reinforce is a pretty good way to make your story rigid and soulless. However, I really think the 'therefore / but' rule is beyond a mere guideline, and gets to the heart of what good storytelling and good drama is.

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Storytelling rant...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 14:42 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Korny, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 15:08


Setups an non-payoffs

Ikora wonders about being mortal. About whether she could actually fight and risk her life knowing it’s the last one left. An interesting moment for her character, and something she’d definitely be wresting with. The speaker then talks about how bravery means death through sacrifice. Okay. Bungie is setting it up so Ikora finds her bravery, and sacrifices herself to aid the player in the last stand against Gaul. A nice satisfying character arc right? She could even come back to life when the Traveler reawakens and sends out its light. That way you could have your cake and eat it too, without breaking any established rules of the narrative universe. But… that didn’t happen. Nothing becomes of the setup, and it ends up being all talk. If you are going to bring up these themes, and you really want to hammer them home then you have these themes resonate in the characters and be part of arcs. Like, this is the kind of thing that makes stories GREAT rather than just good. Bungie could have even gone farther and have Cayde learn to be a team player or something. Again, the setup was all there, but it was wasted!

This was the thing that upset me the most, because there was so much storytelling potential here that went completely unexplored.

The speaker then talks about how bravery means death through sacrifice. Okay. Bungie is setting it up so Ikora finds her bravery, and sacrifices herself to aid the player in the last stand against Gaul. A nice satisfying character arc right? She could even come back to life when the Traveler reawakens and sends out its light. That way you could have your cake and eat it too, without breaking any established rules of the narrative universe.

Ikora was, I feel, the biggest letdown in terms of character for this game, which is a bummer, because her story is set up as being the core of the crux in being able to simply revive, and it directly ties into Ghaul's conversation with the player "You're not brave; you've merely forgotten the fear of death".

And a lot of that has to do with the fact that no, storylines like this shouldn't let you have your cake and eat it to.

To explain, let's look at the brilliant storytelling of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

(Spoilers!)
Early on, we're introduced to the character of Iroh. He is an extremely peaceful and patient man, who lives in exile with his nephew Zuko (the emperor's son). There is a bit of a disconnect between his personality and who he is in the history of that world. He was an extremely respected military general (the Emperor's brother, no less), and he is feared in legend, but all we see is a friendly man who tries to instill positive virtues on his angry and violent nephew.

We find out that his son was a soldier who was killed before the series began, and this led to the downfall of Iroh's military career at a pivotal battle in the city of Ba Sing Se. It changes him, and has a permanent effect on his character; if he had made different choices, his son (who was clearly taking after his father) would still be alive.
This all comes to a head in the episode "Tales of Ba Sing Se", where Iroh is in the city once more, only instead of waging war, he spends the episode helping random people in the city as he makes his way to a hill, spreading positivity, and changing people's lives in ways big and small. At the end, we see where it all comes from emotionally:


It really puts into perspective why he is the way he is, and why he doesn't give up on trying to steer his nephew away from a life of war and violence. Because war and violence have consequences, and they lead to sacrifices that can't be undone. It's a strong theme brought up early and often, and it affects all of the characters throughout the show.

The way this lesson plays out for his nephew is one of the most outstanding character/story arcs ever written (in any media, seriously).

And then we look at The Legend of Korra, The Last Airbender's sequel series, which took a surprising step backwards during its first season.

Early on, a clear threat to Benders (people who can control one of four elements) is brought up. An enemy that can permanently take away their Bending (essentially the same as Ghaul having the power to take away our Light), destroying everything that they are (in the show, the characters see it as a fate worse than death, since many of them base their entire lives/livelihoods on Bending). It's terrifying, and when the main character, Korra, (the Avatar, the only person in the world who can Bend all four elements) comes close to losing her Bending, the show has some subtle-yet-deliberate rape undertones that go with it:


(Best I could find, sorry, but it drives the point home well, as the episode ends on that note, leaving the viewer to marinate on it.)

It establishes the power that the enemy has over everyone, and as the show goes on, more and more people have their bending taken away from them against their will, and so the threat grows. When the only surviving airbenders in the world are targeted, the biggest BAMF of the show, Lin Bei-Fong, chooses to sacrifice herself in order to protect them. It's a great scene, and for the uninitiated (and because it's fitting here), here's a video that shows who she is as a character, and how her sacrifice is handled, all to the tunes of Taylor Swift (you people make me sick):

And it ties well to the theme explored in the first show, because we and the characters have seen it play out with Iroh:

[image]

Again, the episode closes with that scene, driving the lesson home once again. It's fantastic writing.

By the time the show comes to a close, Korra has lost her Bending, so despite defeating the enemy, we have a bittersweet ending, because the war between them has cost so much, and so many people, like Lin, are left permanently damaged from it. The cost is too much for Korra, and the show implies that she is contemplating suicide (going so far as to flat-out state that she's at her lowest point). Had the show ended on this note, I would have ignored all of its smaller faults, and hailed it as a mature exploration of the themes set up in the previous show. It said something, and drove it into our hearts...

Unfortunately, that's not how it ended.

Another big part of the show was that the protagonist, Korra, had no real connection to the strong spiritual beliefs and identity that all Avatars before her, and because of it, she couldn't Airbend (Airbenders being the most spiritual of the bending cultures, since they're essentially Tibetan monks). Despite this being set up as the premise of the whole show, it was handled poorly throughout, and you pretty much completely forget about it throughout the final episodes. Except during the last couple of minutes of the show, where this happens out of nowhere:

Bam. Korra and everyone else gets their Bending back, at no cost, and without any consequences whatsoever, starting with Lin.
The show's writers got to have their cake, and eat it too.

Those last two minutes ruined it for me, because the setup was given so much payoff throughout, while giving even more payoff to Iroh's lessons in the first show.
When we first meet the similarly-named Ikora in Destiny 2, she's in a similar low point. She discusses the philosophical nature of sacrifice, courage, and immortality (as does the Speaker, a fellow Warlock who knows these things). And them, we get nothing.
The Speaker dies, sure, but Ikora is never seen to sacrifice. Faceless Guardians? Yeah, sure, they get their one second of screentime, but nobody addresses it. Hawthorne points out her and her peoples' mortality, but in the end, she's dubbed a "Guardian" too, and that's it. No, Guardian's aren't on the same level as people like Hawthorne. It's even pointed out that Zavala can't really grasp what it means to only have the one shot at life, and the ability for it to be snuffed out permanently by a single enemy bullet (and what it means for people like Hawthorne to rush into the fires anyway). Ikora claims to be terrified of it, but in the end, she does it without breaking a sweat, and mostly offscreen.
It doesn't sell the idea, it doesn't explore the concept, and ultimately, she's the weakest character. Sorry sensei, but you should have died. The Speaker faced torture and death without flinching. He explained his philosohy, and walked the walk to the bitter end. Ikora just felt sad for a few days, then went right back to business as usual...

So yeah, stuff like this has haunted me for a while...


tl;dr:
[image]

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You... you ok there Korny? #UnexspectedKorra

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 15:16 (2391 days ago) @ Korny

You've been holding that back for a while there, eh? Just take a deep breath. The earth king has invited you to lake laogai.

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You... you ok there Korny? #UnexspectedKorra

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 15:32 (2391 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

You've been holding that back for a while there, eh? Just take a deep breath. The earth king has invited you to lake laogai.

Lol. On the bright side, season 3 and 4 of Korra made up for this by having actual consequences throughout, and S3 had one of the best endings that really did drive this home, with Korra being broken both physically and psychologically for years...

So yeah, I've held onto that for a while, but the show's creators did address this issue, so at least they learned...

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Oky doke!

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 15:44 (2391 days ago) @ Korny

You've been holding that back for a while there, eh? Just take a deep breath. The earth king has invited you to lake laogai.


Lol. On the bright side, season 3 and 4 of Korra made up for this by having actual consequences throughout, and S3 had one of the best endings that really did drive this home, with Korra being broken both physically and psychologically for years...

So yeah, I've held onto that for a while, but the show's creators did address this issue, so at least they learned...

I have yet to find someone who didn't like Season 3. Probably because the bad guy was a bad guy but not a bad guy. Like Gary should have been. It's worth to note that the "Korra Production" had a ton of restrictions that the "Aang Production" did not have.

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Oky doke!

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 16:13 (2391 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

You've been holding that back for a while there, eh? Just take a deep breath. The earth king has invited you to lake laogai.


Lol. On the bright side, season 3 and 4 of Korra made up for this by having actual consequences throughout, and S3 had one of the best endings that really did drive this home, with Korra being broken both physically and psychologically for years...

So yeah, I've held onto that for a while, but the show's creators did address this issue, so at least they learned...


I have yet to find someone who didn't like Season 3. Probably because the bad guy was a bad guy but not a bad guy. Like Gary should have been.

And the good guys had depth (Suyin is just as awesome as Lin, for different reasons).

It's worth to note that the "Korra Production" had a ton of restrictions that the "Aang Production" did not have.

Totally. Most faults in Season 4, I totally blame Nickelodeon, and how much they screwed over the Korra team. Season 1 and 2 suffered from being half the length of TLA's seasons. It was a struggle, but it doesn't forgive their storytelling decisions.

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I enjoyed your examples. :)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 15:45 (2391 days ago) @ Korny

- No text -

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Storytelling rant...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 16:40 (2391 days ago) @ Korny

Of course it would have been better if Ikora made a real sacrifice. But, Bungie would never kill her off, so I posited a realistic option.

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Storytelling rant...

by Harmanimus @, Sunday, September 10, 2017, 18:20 (2391 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Would have required a set up for a replacement Warlock Vanguard. Personally I think it would have crowded the narrative to try to have a real sacrifice.

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Storytelling rant...

by Kahzgul, Monday, September 11, 2017, 01:00 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Of course it would have been better if Ikora made a real sacrifice. But, Bungie would never kill her off, so I posited a realistic option.

They have such an easy out, though. Kill off as many of the guardians as you want during the main story. Kill all of them so the player is the only one left, it's FINE. Because when you free the traveler, the ghosts will just come back to life (or the Traveler can release new ghosts) and all of your dead buddies will come back, too. I'm similarly disappointed in this story for not having any teeth. It's worlds better than D1, and yet still a middling tale full of rehashed tropes, tired arcs, and uninspired action. There are a few funny jokes, especially the ones that make fun of D1 (read the lore on MIDA.. oh man), but for the most part this is just boring, nonsensical schlock with no real stakes.

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Storytelling rant...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, September 11, 2017, 08:31 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Of course it would have been better if Ikora made a real sacrifice. But, Bungie would never kill her off, so I posited a realistic option.

I doubted it would happen, but I was desperately hoping that Bungie would do something really bold like kill off Zavala, Cayde, and Ikora. Have them go out in a meaningful way while also clearing space for better characters to replace them in the future.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Schooly D, TSD Gaming Condo, TX, Monday, September 11, 2017, 08:33 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.

This bugged me too, but I assumed I was missing something.

The mission to destroy The Almighty tried to make it seem like the Sun was going supernova at any moment and we had to stop it. But with Gaul still on Earth and his entire army still in the solar system, surely the danger could not have been imminent.

But you destroy The Almighty and... it doesn't seem to matter much, least of all to Gaul. It's not like he was using it as leverage. The Almighty gets blown up and all that happens is Gaul's adviser mentions it in passing and the game continues as normal. The final showdown continues exactly as it would have if the Almighty had still been there, or if it never even existed.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by squidnh3, Monday, September 11, 2017, 09:46 (2390 days ago) @ Schooly D

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.

The mission to destroy The Almighty tried to make it seem like the Sun was going supernova at any moment and we had to stop it. But with Gaul still on Earth and his entire army still in the solar system, surely the danger could not have been imminent.

When I was playing, my understanding was that the protagonists were assuming that Zavala's assault was doomed to fail because the Cabal would just retreat as quickly as they came and blow up the Sun, which would be pretty consistent with their previous behavior (Shield Brothers strike). None of the protagonists were aware of Ghaul's actual plans involving the Traveler beyond cutting off the Light, although we as the players are due to the Ghaul cutscenes.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, September 11, 2017, 10:03 (2390 days ago) @ squidnh3
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, September 11, 2017, 10:15

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.

The mission to destroy The Almighty tried to make it seem like the Sun was going supernova at any moment and we had to stop it. But with Gaul still on Earth and his entire army still in the solar system, surely the danger could not have been imminent.


When I was playing, my understanding was that the protagonists were assuming that Zavala's assault was doomed to fail because the Cabal would just retreat as quickly as they came and blow up the Sun, which would be pretty consistent with their previous behavior (Shield Brothers strike). None of the protagonists were aware of Ghaul's actual plans involving the Traveler beyond cutting off the Light, although we as the players are due to the Ghaul cutscenes.

But the player knows his actual plans. I am actually not sure about how I feel when a player knows something the character they play would not. In film it's pretty common for the main character to not know some aspect of the villain's plan, but this is almost always done to create dramatic irony for the audience. We know who Buffalo Bill is and what he's doing, but Clarice is trying to find out.

But if you are controlling the character, and if the character knowing what you know would cause them to act differently, then I generally think this is a bad idea. Like, if you knew Liquid's plan in Metal Gear Solid, you would not insert that PAL card would you?

I don't think that works, and is another reason why storytelling in video games is hard / problematic on an intrinsic level.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Robot Chickens, Monday, September 11, 2017, 10:37 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

When I was playing, my understanding was that the protagonists were assuming that Zavala's assault was doomed to fail because the Cabal would just retreat as quickly as they came and blow up the Sun, which would be pretty consistent with their previous behavior (Shield Brothers strike). None of the protagonists were aware of Ghaul's actual plans involving the Traveler beyond cutting off the Light, although we as the players are due to the Ghaul cutscenes.


But the player knows his actual plans. I am actually not sure about how I feel when a player knows something the character they play would not. In film it's pretty common for the main character to not know some aspect of the villain's plan, but this is almost always done to create dramatic irony for the audience.

Yeah, even though it makes sense that the characters would act the way they are in this scenario, the effect as a player is that they appear to be directing their energies in the wrong place. I think there are ways this could have been pulled this off, but it felt disjointed because the draw (for me) was to the tension between Gaul and the Speaker that my character couldn't have possibly known about.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, September 11, 2017, 12:40 (2390 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

When I was playing, my understanding was that the protagonists were assuming that Zavala's assault was doomed to fail because the Cabal would just retreat as quickly as they came and blow up the Sun, which would be pretty consistent with their previous behavior (Shield Brothers strike). None of the protagonists were aware of Ghaul's actual plans involving the Traveler beyond cutting off the Light, although we as the players are due to the Ghaul cutscenes.


But the player knows his actual plans. I am actually not sure about how I feel when a player knows something the character they play would not. In film it's pretty common for the main character to not know some aspect of the villain's plan, but this is almost always done to create dramatic irony for the audience.


Yeah, even though it makes sense that the characters would act the way they are in this scenario, the effect as a player is that they appear to be directing their energies in the wrong place. I think there are ways this could have been pulled this off, but it felt disjointed because the draw (for me) was to the tension between Gaul and the Speaker that my character couldn't have possibly known about.

Notice that Naughty Dog, who are universally praised for their game narratives, basically never show the player anything that the main character doesn't either see or know.

Way back with Crash 2, the opening cutscene has Cortex hatching a plan which Crash doesn't see. We know he's using Crash for evil, but Crash doesn't know. I remember that bothering me. Why would I get the crystals for him, when I know Cortex isn't on my side?

Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, September 11, 2017, 09:53 (2390 days ago) @ Schooly D

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.


This bugged me too, but I assumed I was missing something.

The mission to destroy The Almighty tried to make it seem like the Sun was going supernova at any moment and we had to stop it. But with Gaul still on Earth and his entire army still in the solar system, surely the danger could not have been imminent.

But you destroy The Almighty and... it doesn't seem to matter much, least of all to Gaul. It's not like he was using it as leverage. The Almighty gets blown up and all that happens is Gaul's adviser mentions it in passing and the game continues as normal. The final showdown continues exactly as it would have if the Almighty had still been there, or if it never even existed.

The Almighty was sort of a contingency. "Test me and risk annihilation." The gang didn't know about Gaul's issues and how he was desperate to be chosen, they just knew they had to stop Gaul before he forcibly took the light. To make a move on the City they wanted to ensure Gaul couldn't just leave and pull the trigger on the sun.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Schedonnardus, Texas, Saturday, September 16, 2017, 09:15 (2385 days ago) @ Schooly D

Blow up the ship, which is not a threat at all at this point in time.
Assault to take back the city.
Gault takes the light.
Final Showdown.


This bugged me too, but I assumed I was missing something.

The mission to destroy The Almighty tried to make it seem like the Sun was going supernova at any moment and we had to stop it. But with Gaul still on Earth and his entire army still in the solar system, surely the danger could not have been imminent.

But you destroy The Almighty and... it doesn't seem to matter much, least of all to Gaul. It's not like he was using it as leverage. The Almighty gets blown up and all that happens is Gaul's adviser mentions it in passing and the game continues as normal. The final showdown continues exactly as it would have if the Almighty had still been there, or if it never even existed.

It makes sense to me. In the Cabal society, you come home victorious or not at all. Remember, they crashed their ship into the dreadnaught b/c that was preferable to going home in shame. If we had taken out Ghaul first, the remaining Cabal would have pressed on with the destruction of the sun in order to claim victory.

We took out their plan B before stopping plan A

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by squidnh3, Monday, September 11, 2017, 09:55 (2390 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Second: Can the light be taken or not? The speaker tells Gaul that the light can’t be taken; it can only be given. Then, in a mission on Io we check out an experiment which was trying to extract light and give it to other lifeforms. At the end of the mission we are told the experiment failed and that won’t work. Okay, so the game is telling us Gaul can’t take the light. But does this not completely nullify Gaul’s storyline? The traveler sure as shit isn’t going to give Gaul its light… so he’s failed before he’s even begun. But oops, I guess he can take it after all, as that’s what he does for the finale. So why on Earth would Bungie be setting up the rules of light such that they completely remove any drama or worry with regards to Gaul, and then go and just break that rule? Worse, it just makes all the scenes with the speaker pure wheel spinning where no plot propulsion is happening. We learn about him and his past, which is good, but no actions actually materialize from this that matter within the overall narrative.

All the talk of taking and giving light does seem like a lot of mumbo-jumbo, but are we sure what happens with Ghaul at the end of the game? He "takes" Light in that he is able to wield supers (which was spectacularly terrifying, btw), but he has definitely not become a Guardian, as his resurrection is not Ghost-driven and uh, short lived. Some Grimoire cards would be nice.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Monday, September 11, 2017, 11:28 (2390 days ago) @ squidnh3

How much can you read into the gameplay mechanics in the final battle? If you go stand in his bubble that he charges up with, you get burned and take damage, which I don't think would happen if he was taking the Light. Shouldn't our Guardian be able to do the same thing with it, instead of taking damage?

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Harmanimus @, Monday, September 11, 2017, 12:01 (2390 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Well, to have interesting contrast, there are 3 cases that seem to relate to light being "taken" that I can directly identify. Taken blights and abilities are the closest to what Ghaul appears to be using. It isn't explicitly stated to be light. The other two are the chalice in CE and the light bombs in KF. Both of which Guardians use to their benefit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Cabal learn to "take" the light from Taken and not from Crota/Oryx? I'm curious to other threads that might be a part of this.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by slycrel ⌂, Monday, September 11, 2017, 14:50 (2390 days ago) @ cheapLEY

In this vein... i keep seeing random shards of the traveler that are both light filled and corrupted according to my ghost. I couldn't help but draw some visual symmetry between ghaul's pool of light and the corrupted light of the shards. I also went through the pool and took "burning" damage, though the pools on ghaul's ship that we charge our supers on are real light.

I think there's more to this that we don't yet know.

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 21:22 (2389 days ago) @ Cody Miller

How would my guardian, or anyone for that matter know that’s where Cayde went? How did they find out this information?

Failsafe boasted his distress calls into space. She tells you so during the first mission on Nessus.

Cayde is on Nessus to get a Vex teleporter. Why did he want that?

To teleport right next to Gaul and shoot him. He tells you this directly.

On Io, we do something with a Warmind… which has no connection to anything. Maybe I just don’t remember, but how did anything we did on Io lead to Ikora coming back? Again, we lack the narrative / logical / emotional connections here.

We used the Warmind and it sensors throughout the system to find the Almighty which in turn convinced Ikora that dying was worth saving the solar system. It also gets us scans of the Almighty so we know how to kill it.

(Sorry for the delayed response. I’ve only now started my 2nd play through and am coming across the answers to your questions.)

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Des2ny is Canon (Story Spoilers)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 12, 2017, 22:52 (2389 days ago) @ Ragashingo

How would my guardian, or anyone for that matter know that’s where Cayde went? How did they find out this information?


Failsafe boasted his distress calls into space. She tells you so during the first mission on Nessus.

But we don't see that until we get there. Where is the scene where we receive that transmission? You need to know why you are going to Nessus before you go there!

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