The Current Status of the Forums

This post is sure to cause a lot of divided feelings on the forum, but given the current mood of the forum, the administrators have decided to try something new. We do not want to discourage criticism as a whole on the forum, however we feel that the current deluge of negativity is taking over the conversation entirely. This is evident even when, from our own experience, the majority of the population does not feel the same way and are being discouraged from posting.

So, starting today, we are implementing a Criticism Category on the forum. If you wish to not participate in criticism of Destiny, then you do not have to follow the Category (simply select or unselect the Category in your settings page, you might want to check which it's set to now), while those that do wish to discuss the game in a critical way can still do so. If we find that a topic is pure criticism of the game it will be moved into the Criticism topic. If a topic that did not start critical becomes vastly critical it will be considered and possibly moved to the Criticism Category.

I just want to reiterate. This is NOT to discourage critical talk on the forums. This is to encourage the group of people who have become quieter over the last year (or more) because of the negativity to re-engage and feel comfortable discussing the game in a positive light.

We'll also be looking out on the forum for the response to this change and may make additional changes based on what we see.

Edit: INSANEdrive requested a little more information for people unaware of the situation on how we made the decision be made public, see this post for it.

locked

4459 views

I would like an option to hide or collapse individual threads. I have my sorting set to move threads with the most recent replies to the top, but sometimes that means scrolling, scrolling, scrolling past megathreads that I lost interest in to read things I do have interest in. I don't want to filter all the threads of a certain type out, just reduce the ones that I get tired of scrolling past. Is that doable?

locked

4014 views

- No text -

locked

3934 views

- No text -

locked

3957 views

[image]

locked

3976 views

i love that show!

locked

3950 views

- No text -

locked

3663 views

Am I one of the negative ones? Yes or no plz.

locked

4014 views

There's probably a lot of people who are wondering the same things about themselves.

Personally, I never remember who says what but I remember what I said...and I asked myself if I was "one of those people." So I figured, if I have to ask myself that...I'm going to make an effort to change as if I was "one of those people."

So let's not try to figure out who is who and just make it a self inspection and make the change accordingly.

In my opinion.

locked

4005 views

So no need to worry about whether "you're one of the negative ones".

It isn't about sending certain people to a corner, it's about making sure that the general areas of the forum are welcoming to people that don't want to engage in criticism - and hopefully to bring back some of our longtime community members that haven't been around much lately, and to hopefully keep some around that have been discouraged by the general atmosphere at times.

There's probably a lot of people who are wondering the same things about themselves.

Personally, I never remember who says what but I remember what I said...and I asked myself if I was "one of those people." So I figured, if I have to ask myself that...I'm going to make an effort to change as if I was "one of those people."

[following emphasis added by Speedracer513:]

So let's not try to figure out who is who and just make it a self inspection and make the change accordingly.

In my opinion.

I think this is a great perspective to have for everyone here. Whether you feel like you were "one of the negative ones" or not (again, on a non-existent list) - having a bit of self-inspection before posting is always a good idea.

locked

3975 views

Well I am, LOL. Funk's not on it though. Also my list doesn't count for anything.

locked

3653 views

- No text -

locked

3891 views

I know I am, although I don’t try to be. ):

I’m mostly still here because of all of you at this point. Maybe I need to re-evaluate when and how I participate in threads.

locked

3944 views

Honestly, I don't know if the change is incredibly good or bad.

I see this forum as a place to post both positive and negative comments about the game and Bungie. I always hope Bungie sees my posts and considers changes. I know they check in here from time to time. I am a Destiny fan, not a Bungie fan. My comments have mostly been related to the game itself and when I see problems, I get cranky at Bungie. I've also give them kudos for good work.

I find elements of Destiny to be too difficult. That's an honest opinion. When I state that opinion here, I often get jumped on hard by this community. Which is the more negative, my comments or the replies to my comments?

Also, is this a community or just a forum? I don't post here just because Bungie might see it. It's also because some people I come across here are genuinely fine people and I consider their comments worthy of reading and sometimes a response. I might even want to play with people here.

Is this just a community of those who love Bungie no matter what? That would be too icky for me.

On one hand I sort of understand why forum changes are being implemented and on the other it makes no sense. I haven't seen the kind of cesspool I've seen elsewhere (I'd name a certain forum but I am genuinely afraid of drawing attention from that site).

locked

4013 views

Few things:

Unless they login and specifically uncheck criticism all Bungie employees will see all Criticism topics.

This is first and foremost a FAN forum. We're not trying to stymie conversation, we're trying to make it possible for people that don't want to see 10 topics by the same group of people every day criticizing Bungie and D2 to still enjoy the forums. Many people I imagine will not turn off criticism and will have the exact same experience. The people aren't being punished or banished, their posts are still here and available for anyone to read.

This is not going to be like LowSodiumDestiny, this is still a general forum. If posts under a topic are critical we aren't going to delete them or move them. But if the entire topic of a post about criticizing Bungie or D2 it does not hurt to have it categorized as such.

locked

3973 views

Honestly, I don't know if the change is incredibly good or bad.

I see this forum as a place to post both positive and negative comments about the game and Bungie. I always hope Bungie sees my posts and considers changes. I know they check in here from time to time. I am a Destiny fan, not a Bungie fan. My comments have mostly been related to the game itself and when I see problems, I get cranky at Bungie. I've also give them kudos for good work.

I find elements of Destiny to be too difficult. That's an honest opinion. When I state that opinion here, I often get jumped on hard by this community. Which is the more negative, my comments or the replies to my comments?

Also, is this a community or just a forum? I don't post here just because Bungie might see it. It's also because some people I come across here are genuinely fine people and I consider their comments worthy of reading and sometimes a response. I might even want to play with people here.

Is this just a community of those who love Bungie no matter what? That would be too icky for me.

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

Blah blah, censorship, blah blah lazyness, blah blah snowflakey.
I get that the atmosphere in the Destiny community in general has (understandably) skewed towards the negative side, and some of that dispirited feeling has found its way to the forum, but this seems like a long-term problem in the guise of a short-term fix for the way folks have been feeling lately.

Trying to control how much people can express themselves is a bit of a no-no in decorum, especially when they aren't violating any of the forum rules.

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

locked

3986 views

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

You can interpret it that way (I’m not sure how if you know Xenos and the other Admins)

Blah blah, censorship, blah blah lazyness, blah blah snowflakey.

Censorship, by moving a thread to a more appropriate category? That’s not censorship. And remember its opt out. Just like people can opt out of my Taylor Swift (Off Topic) threads.

I get that the atmosphere in the Destiny community in general has (understandably) skewed towards the negative side, and some of that dispirited feeling has found its way to the forum, but this seems like a long-term problem in the guise of a short-term fix for the way folks have been feeling lately.

Trying to control how much people can express themselves is a bit of a no-no in decorum, especially when they aren't violating any of the forum rules.

Again, it doesn’t seem like you actually read the post, no one is limiting what you say anymore than our general guidelines do now.

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

I think Xenos mentioned earlier that many people probably won’t turn off this topic, but it gives some in the community the ability to enjoy the community aspects of this site without wading through what they find distracting and depressing threads.

locked

3990 views

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

You can interpret it that way (I’m not sure how if you know Xenos and the other Admins)

I may have interacted with them once or twice.

Blah blah, censorship, blah blah lazyness, blah blah snowflakey.

Censorship, by moving a thread to a more appropriate category? That’s not censorship. And remember its opt out. Just like people can opt out of my Taylor Swift (Off Topic) threads.

You know exactly what it is, and how it's different than an off-topic thread. It's essentially saying that even if the thread is relevant to Destiny (you know, in the correct category), because someone doesn't want to read any criticism, the entire post is tossed into the same pile as the vitriol that some people might want to legitimately avoid, so there's that looming over everything that you do when you want to start a topic.

I get that the atmosphere in the Destiny community in general has (understandably) skewed towards the negative side, and some of that dispirited feeling has found its way to the forum, but this seems like a long-term problem in the guise of a short-term fix for the way folks have been feeling lately.

Trying to control how much people can express themselves is a bit of a no-no in decorum, especially when they aren't violating any of the forum rules.

Again, it doesn’t seem like you actually read the post, no one is limiting what you say anymore than our general guidelines do now.

Xenos clearly explained that if he or another admin deems your post critical, they'll move it over. Now people will be like "I better make sure that I don't say anything too critical, or Xenos the Menace will strike, and my thought-out post will be hidden from members in the community whose input I'd enjoy reading."

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

I think Xenos mentioned earlier that many people probably won’t turn off this topic, but it gives some in the community the ability to enjoy the community aspects of this site without wading through what they find distracting and depressing threads.

Kind of funny how weird the idea of implementing questionable things is, when you defend those choices with "people probably won't use it".
How well would that fly anywhere else?

Sure, I roll my eyes at overly critical posts all the time, but I say that this solution is stupid, and might hurt the forum in the long run, just because a few admins don't want to moderate like admins are supposed to do.
And we don't have blatantly toxic people here who only contribute negativity. People who are being critical feel discouraged, because they want the game to succeed, and they want Bungie to do better. If there is a line being crossed, it's up to the people on the forum to express this. Claude already has, and he did a good job of explaining himself (though the message seemed to go over some folks' heads). That's all that was needed. Not a "You can ignore these people who aren't 100% satisfied!" category.

locked

4032 views

If there is a line being crossed, it's up to the people on the forum to express this. Claude already has, and he did a good job of explaining himself (though the message seemed to go over some folks' heads). That's all that was needed. Not a "You can ignore these people who aren't 100% satisfied!" category.

Yes, because expressing the idea that said line was being crossed has done anything to help solve the situation? No. Things are worse than ever. You can tell that when Claude of all people starts talking about stepping away. Let me repeat that. The person who has overseen Bungie.org for more than 15 years is talking about stepping away. Because the tone of this place has grown so constantly negative. And there are multiple others who have already stepped away or who rarely stop by because of the way things are now. Fact is, DBO has a serious problem. And if there was going to be a change or self-moderation it would have happened by now.

So what’s the solution? Is it what’s happening now? Maybe not. Or maybe not long term. But at least someone is trying to do something. If nothing else, maybe this is an overreaction that will finally get the darn point across that repeated consistent negativity has taken a real toll on this place...

locked

3941 views

Just like people can opt out of my Taylor Swift (Off Topic) threads.

FYI, for those of you that do this, I am keeping a list. :P

locked

3941 views

Censorship, by moving a thread to a more appropriate category? That’s not censorship. And remember its opt out. Just like people can opt out of my Taylor Swift (Off Topic) threads.

this
censorship is when there are legal strictures, job loss, religious things, etc. in the way of saying what you want
some categories on a forum are not censorship
hell, bans on a forum are not censorship as long as it's the only forum in existence

locked

3631 views

hell, bans on a forum are not censorship as long as it's the only forum in existence

meant to say "as long as it's NOT the only forum in existence", 1 minute too late

locked

3630 views

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

Blah blah, censorship, blah blah lazyness, blah blah snowflakey.
I get that the atmosphere in the Destiny community in general has (understandably) skewed towards the negative side, and some of that dispirited feeling has found its way to the forum, but this seems like a long-term problem in the guise of a short-term fix for the way folks have been feeling lately.

Trying to control how much people can express themselves is a bit of a no-no in decorum, especially when they aren't violating any of the forum rules.

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

First, your reading comprehension is questionable.
Two, I'm noticing a distinct lack of critical thought, suggestions, or faith in our community. What I'm reading here is more akin to bitching and moaning about an invented future that hasn't come to pass. It drips of venom without being helpful accept to question the Admin's intentions. I'm sure they aren't trying to destroy the community, mmkay? So *TRY* and relax, take a deep breath, maybe say something positive or hopeful in among the conspiracy theories, and tone down the venom a tiny bit? Maybe suggest an alternative course of action? Be constructive?

I've read enough from you in the past to know you CAN think a thing through, come up with pros and cons, and deliver them in kinder words than you just did. Instead your post came off as insulting to this community and I would assume, a bit insulting to the admins that are working to try and make this a better place.

locked

3963 views

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

Blah blah, censorship, blah blah lazyness, blah blah snowflakey.
I get that the atmosphere in the Destiny community in general has (understandably) skewed towards the negative side, and some of that dispirited feeling has found its way to the forum, but this seems like a long-term problem in the guise of a short-term fix for the way folks have been feeling lately.

Trying to control how much people can express themselves is a bit of a no-no in decorum, especially when they aren't violating any of the forum rules.

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

First, your reading comprehension is questionable.
Two, I'm noticing a distinct lack of critical thought, suggestions, or faith in our community. What I'm reading here is more akin to bitching and moaning about an invented future that hasn't come to pass. It drips of venom without being helpful accept to question the Admin's intentions. I'm sure they aren't trying to destroy the community, mmkay? So *TRY* and relax, take a deep breath, maybe say something positive or hopeful in among the conspiracy theories, and tone down the venom a tiny bit? Maybe suggest an alternative course of action? Be constructive?

I've read enough from you in the past to know you CAN think a thing through, come up with pros and cons, and deliver them in kinder words than you just did. Instead your post came off as insulting to this community and I would assume, a bit insulting to the admins that are working to try and make this a better place.

Not to you Earendil - I seek to add to what has already been said.

@ Korny - It appears you read this post and instantly hit the respond button without considering the fuller aspects of where it was being said. I understand completely the concerns, as a little bit of what you say echos a little of my mind as well. But - with all the contexts considered, I personally concur with the Admins on this as the best course of action right now. I hope you can double check your thoughts, and do the same, and if not, can you think of a better course of action to solve the issue at hand?

TL;DR - Yer youth is getting the best of ya, yer yipper snapper! :)

locked

3940 views

Yeah, this seems like a way to lump criticism into a pit. Is your post not part of the pro-Destiny circle-jerk? Into the blocked-out category you go!

it's not blocked out
people can choose to block it out, just like they choose block out posts made by a certain user or posts about DBO itself or posts about gathering a party or posts about the media or whatever

If you want to moderate, that's fine, but to essentially toss anything that isn't praise aside falls under so many red flags when it comes to having a community.

no one said they were going to do that
if I was a moderator I would be pretty insulted at someone claiming I was going to do that

thank you for reminding everyone you're a dick

locked

3778 views

Honestly, I don't know if the change is incredibly good or bad.

I see this forum as a place to post both positive and negative comments about the game and Bungie. I always hope Bungie sees my posts and considers changes. I know they check in here from time to time. I am a Destiny fan, not a Bungie fan. My comments have mostly been related to the game itself and when I see problems, I get cranky at Bungie. I've also give them kudos for good work.

I find elements of Destiny to be too difficult. That's an honest opinion. When I state that opinion here, I often get jumped on hard by this community. Which is the more negative, my comments or the replies to my comments?

Also, is this a community or just a forum? I don't post here just because Bungie might see it. It's also because some people I come across here are genuinely fine people and I consider their comments worthy of reading and sometimes a response. I might even want to play with people here.

Is this just a community of those who love Bungie no matter what? That would be too icky for me.

On one hand I sort of understand why forum changes are being implemented and on the other it makes no sense. I haven't seen the kind of cesspool I've seen elsewhere (I'd name a certain forum but I am genuinely afraid of drawing attention from that site).

As one of the people who does not understand the intensity of the negative posts these days, I don't plan on checking or unchecking any boxes. I appreciate the effort made to address this, but my problems really stem from not being on the same page as people and seeing the same negative opinions expressed ad nauseum. When critique changed to mockery, I think it changed something for me. I want to engage in critique etc, but I don't want to participate in the emergent tone of that criticism. That's why I was saying I am close to leaving. I wish other people engaged with a different tone, but I recognize that it comes down to me.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is served by cordoning off discussion and I worry about the politics of determining what counts as critique and what doesn't.

In any case, I appreciate the admin effort here to address the culture here, but I'm not sure there's a technical solution.

locked

3933 views

I like the idea because honestly I'm tired of reading people bitch, moan, and whine instead of intelligently critique in new and fascinating ways. Now, not everyone is so eloquent or smart to pull off such a post, and that's okay. The people I judge are the ones that USED to do that, but who have started to sound like a broken record.

I see this new feature as a way for ME to see posts by people that are labeled "positive". I have a mental ban list in my mind of people I basically just ignore, but it sounds like with this feature I won't have to ignore those people unless it's marked as negative. I'm sure there are other uses of it, which each individual can decide on.

In the short term the downside is zero, and the upside has hope. I'm sure if it doesn't work out the admins will modify/change the system.

locked

3931 views

I get what you all are trying to do, I understand your intentions, and I empathize. It killed me when HBO fell into a pit of negativity around MCC.

But you know what? When something is objectively bad? It's bad.

It stinks when you can't go to Bnet, or reddit, etc without wading though a pile of shit when all you want to do is read about lore, or share funny clips or the fun you have playing. It's draining. But that doesn't make it wrong, either. This place ins't bnet or reddit. And there are few, few, shit posts here.

But filtering those views out is no different than creating an echo chamber where you only hear what you want to hear. There's been enough of this on social media already, and it only got worse with the most recent U.S. Presidential election.

At the end of the day, this is a privately owned website that is free to be managed how that party feels it should be managed.

But I'll say this:

When I read your post, it comes across to me as less

the administrators have decided to try something new.

and more "the administrators have decided they are tired of moderating"

As a moderator, you are essentially required to screen every post. If you are at the point where you are tired of reading complaint after complaint (and that is a totally valid feeling, btw) perhaps you should stop moderating, as you may not be up to the task at its most extreme ends of the spectrum.

locked

4008 views

I don't agree with Korny that you and the other mods are (in his words) "pro-Destiny circle-jerk" ers .

And I also don't agree with Earendil all the way.

A forum NEEDS those kinds of clashing opinions and incendiary POVs, because the foster discussion and learning.

I've yet to see anyone here go "DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS" repeatedly, without interruption, whenever they possibly can. I DO remember that bullshit happening on HBO, where a couple individuals would comment on nearly every single thread to shit on 343, regardless if it was relevant or added to this discussion. Strangely, those same individuals post much move civilly here, and they've made it clear they are't happy with Destiny 2 and Bungie.

But if this is going to be a forum where we even have the OPTION to filter out views and opinions different than our personally held ones, I'll have no part in it and this is where I get off.

It might as well be planet fitness and the dang lunk-alarms

locked

3945 views

I've yet to see anyone here go "DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS" repeatedly, without interruption, whenever they possibly can.

What’s interesting is that I feel a number of people (including myself) are seeing those kinds of posts more and more. We each bring our own worldview, experience, and interpretation into how we read/interpret posts. And clearly many of us are wanting a change.

But if this is going to be a forum where we even have the OPTION to filter out views and opinions different than our personally held ones, I'll have no part in it and this is where I get off.

What I’m hearing from you (and a number of others) is the fear of views/opinions getting filtered. I understand that. But the Admins have already stated they’re going to take feedback and find what is best for the community. I’m going to encourage you to not just jump ship. Help us make it better (preferably with less salt!).

locked

3902 views

A forum NEEDS those kinds of clashing opinions and incendiary POVs, because the foster discussion and learning.

And those things aren't going away. But when it really comes down to it:

But if this is going to be a forum where we even have the OPTION to filter out views and opinions different than our personally held ones, I'll have no part in it and this is where I get off.

There is already a lot of discussion, content, and sometimes people who I will mentally filter out. And given the general state of presentation and that fact that most of the views/opinions being expressed negatively are not new I don't think it is unfair to pass them by if people aren't going to be constructive with it. But no one is flagging their posts (+) or (-) for folks like we would for (sp) so folks have to make their own judgement calls.

At a point I think it is more unfair and worse for the community to force people to wade through discussions that they will not contribute to and derive no benefit from than it is to allow them to slice them off during their hobby and entertainment times.

Hell, p sure most of the forum has a mental filter for Cody.

locked

3923 views

Hell, p sure most of the forum has a mental filter for Cody.

locked

3729 views

Cody just has an incendiary way of coming across if you don't know him well.

Also, I think he is a little like this.

[image]

locked

3677 views

I've yet to see anyone here go "DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS DESTINY SUCKS" repeatedly, without interruption, whenever they possibly can. I DO remember that bullshit happening on HBO, where a couple individuals would comment on nearly every single thread to shit on 343, regardless if it was relevant or added to this discussion. Strangely, those same individuals post much move civilly here, and they've made it clear they are't happy with Destiny 2 and Bungie.

Hi! In Bungie’s defense, they aren’t anywhere near the solar system of awfulness that 343 is in. There’s nothing strange about this. :P

locked

3682 views

Honestly, I believe the reverse is true. I think the moderators here are, for the first time in a long time, actually stepping up and doing their jobs. There has been effectively zero moderation in all of DBO’s history. Yes, around two people have been temporarily banned over the last 4ish years. But other than the occasional stern words from Claude or a handful of others, what actual moderation has ever taken place? Almost zero. (And yes, I’ve totally pointed this out to most or all the mods before. Not like me posting this now is gonna offend any of them)

Why has it been that way? Because DBO and HBO if not all of Bungie.org has always been a very free place that people can post on any topic or opinion they want. That’s not something to be looked down upon. In fact, the way HBO and DBO were run successfully is a testament to the strength of our community and the respect we held for each other. Has that changed? I’m not sure I’d go that far, but there are key signs that something has happened. Those in charge did not reach these decisions because everything was going great, after all.

If anything, I think criticisms of and, sure, even the love of Destiny the Game has far outgrown and outstripped and smothered respect for and love of our DBO community. Yes, I want Destiny to improve and for mistakes to be unmade and unfortunate or stupid decisions to be corrected, but I also want to see our Bungie.Org community survive. I want to see us survive the bumps along the way, to enjoy changes and triumphs as Destiny improves and I want to see us continue to exist and to thrive when the next Bungie game comes along. I want to repeat the logo design contests and the speculation in the face of minimal information and the exploration of the next Bungie universe. And I truly think we were not going to make it to that point the way we were going.

Heck, maybe this “censorship” is the thing that kills Bungie.org, but in my mind that’s better than this place becoming so toxic that next to nobody, including the person who has done so much to guide us for literally decades, wants to stay around.

locked

3967 views

Why has it been mostly free of moderation all these years? Because the people who post here are of better quality than reddit or bnet. Duh. You don’t need to moderate as often when your community is on the whole more awesome. It’s what brought me to Bungie.org in the first place.

It’s just my opinion that Destiny has always been a game that takes more than it gives. Games like Halo took virtually nothing. And I think people are just sensing that recently and it’s coming through.

You can’t have an awesome community around a game if the game doesn’t inspire them anymore.

locked

3975 views

You can’t have an awesome community around a game if the game doesn’t inspire them anymore.

I’d argue you cannot have a community at all if the only people willing to be a part of it are the uninspired.

locked

3918 views

Heck, maybe this “censorship” is the thing that kills Bungie.org, but in my mind that’s better than this place becoming so toxic that next to nobody, including the person who has done so much to guide us for literally decades, wants to stay around.

I just have a hard time reconciling that anyone could consider this place, in its current state, as anything approaching toxic. I won't argue with anybody who thinks it is, that's not for me to judge. Even when discussing criticisms, this place shines like a beacon for reasoned discussion, and unlike just about any other place, no one here is just complaining to complain and being angry.

locked

3905 views

Let me put it this way.

On November 26th, I spent $100 of my own money to supply the No Longer Neglected project with some awesome prizes. As of yesterday I was planning on simply walking away. I had not even written my own entry to my own contest despite having a great idea.

In late December / early Jan, I told my normal Raid team I did not want to be included on any more Raids. I had three main reasons, one of them was because the way the Destiny community in general and DBO community specifically was trending I did not feel 2018 would be a better year than 2017 and that had me so down that I did not feel like engaging any longer.

Yesterday I had strongly considered officially ending both the No Longer Neglected contest and Bite-Sized Backstory, two things I love doing.

No only that, but over the past years I’ve watched a fair number of great community members slip away expressly because of the slowly growing trend of constant, unrelenting negativity and criticism. We’ve lost some awesome artists and storytellers and movers and shakers, each of which has said directly it was because DBO had changed enough that it put them off from wanting to come here any longer.

So, I guess that’s all to say toxicity, like most things, is in the eye of the beholder. And for some of this, maybe this place wasn’t actually literally toxic, but it was far too toxic for us to stay around.

With these moves by the admin team today, I once again have a little Hope for the Future. This whole category is probably not the perfect solution. It may not last long or maybe something better will take its place. But any move to counter the Darkness that has been growing here has me excited. That’s why I am continuing No Longer Neglected (and just wrote and posted my story), that’s why I restarted research for Bite-sized Backstory. It’s why I’m thinking of additional prizes and contests to help fill the void that moving Feedback posts to their own category is going to leave.

It’s also why I’m planning a series of weekly feedback topics. Some have rightly pointed out that having a specified Criticism area might be seen by some as a place to dispose of “bad” posts or posters. I’m going to do my part to not let that happen by reengaging on that front and encouraging others to do so as well.

It will take a lot to rebuild our community to the place I think it should be at, and I certainly can’t do it alone, but I am going to put forth effort and try and lead by example. And I hope it’s clear that doing so means something to me when yesterday I was debating whether it was better to just fade away or to announce that I was leaving...

locked

3893 views

On November 26th, I spent $100 of my own money to supply the No Longer Neglected project with some awesome prizes. As of yesterday I was planning on simply walking away. I had not even written my own entry to my own contest despite having a great idea.

For whatever it's worth, I have genuinely been sad to see the lack of engagement with the contest.

I can't talk, as I also haven't taken the time to write anything. I'm not a very good writer, though, so I never really intended on doing so. But I can't lament no one else participating if I don't either.

locked

3887 views

On November 26th, I spent $100 of my own money to supply the No Longer Neglected project with some awesome prizes. As of yesterday I was planning on simply walking away. I had not even written my own entry to my own contest despite having a great idea.

For whatever it's worth, I have genuinely been sad to see the lack of engagement with the contest.

I can't talk, as I also haven't taken the time to write anything. I'm not a very good writer, though, so I never really intended on doing so. But I can't lament no one else participating if I don't either.

Trust me when I say that no matter how bad a writer you are, you can write a haiku. Sure, Raga might thank you and kindly put it in another pile. But you wrote something! :D

I say this because I have a serious case of stream of conscious and thus I have a terrible time at getting a point across. People probably have noticed this when I try to debate. This also doesn't help story telling. But there are many ways to tell a story. I never would have wrote My Titan Haiku if I wasn't encouraged to just try something.

locked

3763 views

I'd love to give it a shot, but the timing means I can't. I have to put my efforts elsewhere.

locked

3899 views

I intend to enter but then life. Maybe that's what I'll spend my evening on before having to go back to work tomorrow. Unless my supervisor lets me take leave.

I get bad about art and writing prompts, though. Of curiosity, is it possible to get something that would sticky contests and community events that aren't FTB?

locked

3844 views

Let me put it this way.

On November 26th, I spent $100 of my own money to supply the No Longer Neglected project with some awesome prizes. As of yesterday I was planning on simply walking away. I had not even written my own entry to my own contest despite having a great idea.

I had a blast writing in the first entry. I also knew the subject matter really well...me. The current one is over my head. I know nothing about the lore of any of those time periods and have no idea where to start in writing something. I'm looking forward to round 3 to partake in.

locked

3691 views

Avoiding posting my opinions too much, but this is much MORE work for the admins not less.

locked

3885 views

I get what you all are trying to do, I understand your intentions, and I empathize. It killed me when HBO fell into a pit of negativity around MCC.

But you know what? When something is objectively bad? It's bad.

It stinks when you can't go to Bnet, or reddit, etc without wading though a pile of shit when all you want to do is read about lore, or share funny clips or the fun you have playing. It's draining. But that doesn't make it wrong, either. This place ins't bnet or reddit. And there are few, few, shit posts here.

But filtering those views out is no different than creating an echo chamber where you only hear what you want to hear. There's been enough of this on social media already, and it only got worse with the most recent U.S. Presidential election.

At the end of the day, this is a privately owned website that is free to be managed how that party feels it should be managed.

But I'll say this:

When I read your post, it comes across to me as less

the administrators have decided to try something new.

and more "the administrators have decided they are tired of moderating"

As a moderator, you are essentially required to screen every post. If you are at the point where you are tired of reading complaint after complaint (and that is a totally valid feeling, btw) perhaps you should stop moderating, as you may not be up to the task at its most extreme ends of the spectrum.

Dude, we've had filters for a while. On occasion, moderators have categorized threads after they've started. This is no big deal, I think. It does give users another option for the stuff they'd like to see or not see.

Be careful what you wish for in regards to moderation. Haven't you realized that part of what made this place cool was the light touch of the moderators?

Speaking of Halo, though, you know I don't love it like I used to. I'm not thrilled with the direction it took. I still like it but I don't love it. How much have you seen me post about that? A handful of times? I've posted more in defense of 343 and against the hyperbole directed toward them.

And speaking of hyperbole, one of the reasons this place hasn't needed much moderation is that we do a pretty good job of moderating ourselves. Like now: you might be overreacting here. Think about it, friend.

locked

3970 views

Speaking of Halo, though, you know I don't love it like I used to. I'm not thrilled with the direction it took. I still like it but I don't love it. How much have you seen me post about that? A handful of times? I've posted more in defense of 343 and against the hyperbole directed toward them.

Indeed. I have a number of strong complaints about the direction Halo took, starting at Halo 4. But I have not posted about them at HBO in longer than I can remember. I may have mentioned them here in passing while talking about Destiny, but I can’t remember the last time I did that either. And I certainly don’t have an account at whatever forums 343 itself has.

I stay away from those places and making those criticisms because I know that at the moment pretty much all I have are negative things to say. Instead of repeating myself and injecting what I very strongly believe to be valid criticism into every relevant topic, I found something I did enjoy and am currently waiting to see if Halo will turn back more in the direction I enjoyed in the past.

locked

3838 views

As a moderator, you are essentially required to screen every post. If you are at the point where you are tired of reading complaint after complaint (and that is a totally valid feeling, btw) perhaps you should stop moderating, as you may not be up to the task at its most extreme ends of the spectrum.

I’m half being a jackass, half musing out loud... but I think you’re possibly hitting on something that’s as relevant as it is ironic (given my earlier comments about streamers feeling so down on D2 because they won’t let themselves walk away from it when they’re not enjoying themselves).

I fully sympathize with anyone who is feeling burned out by the forums. I can’t say I relate, though. I don’t post as much as I used to, but I still visit every day. I check out every thread, but I don’t read every post or follow every tangient. If someone posts an in-depth critique and I’m not in the mood to read it, I don’t read it. I approach DBO the way I approach D2; I jump in when I’m in the mood, and stay as long as I’m having fun, not a moment longer. As a former forum mod, I’m fully aware that the mods here at DBO have a certain responsibility to read as many of the posts here as they can.

A few other random thoughts/observations, all in the spirit of discussion:

“I find elements of Destiny to be too difficult. That's an honest opinion. When I state that opinion here, I often get jumped on hard by this community. Which is the more negative, my comments or the replies to my comments?” - Deep_NNN

I can relate to Deep’s comment here. The majority of the most negative or venomous posts I’ve read at DBO have not been posts that were critical of Bungie or Destiny. Rather, they were posts written in response to other members’ criticisms. The number of times I have seen personal attacks thrown at somebody for saying they don’t like something about a videogame far exceeds the number of times I’ve seen anyone post about Destiny in a way that I would describe as “toxic” or “venomous”. I totally get that nobody likes to see something they love get criticized by others. I’m no different. But even the most repetitive criticisms about the game that I read here at DBO are almost always well thought out and calmly expressed, regardless of whether or not I agree with the post itself.

”...there are multiple others who have already stepped away or who rarely stop by because of the way things are now. Fact is, DBO has a serious problem. And if there was going to be a change or self-moderation it would have happened by now.” - Ragashingo

I think this comment by Ragashingo and Claude’s post that triggered this discussion both fit together in my brain in a way that brings a question to mind:

Are the kinds of posts currently being made at DBO really the problem, or is it what’s not being posted?”

I feel like during the early days of D1, DBO was filled with just as many criticisms or complaints about the game. But there was lots of other stuff being posted as well. It rounded-out the overall tone of the forums. But these days, people just don’t seem to get excited about Destiny in a way that makes them want to write positive/fun/creative posts as often. And it isn’t self-evident to me that it’s completely the community’s “fault”. I don’t say this as a criticism of D2 or anything like that. I’m just making the observation that many of those who say they love D2 don’t seem to get excited enough to talk about how much they love it as often as they used to. I include myself in that group. And on the flip side, I can’t fault any Bungie fan for feeling confused/disappointed/frustrated by some of the missteps that have occurred recently. So I can’t fault Destiny fans for wanting to talk about it. There are times when I see a new thread and think to myself “I’m not sure we needed a whole new thread dedicated to this”, but I just skip it and move on. As I said earlier, perhaps that’s the key, or at least part of it?

Finally, regarding the addition of a “criticism” category:

I totally get why some people are against the idea. But I see it this way. If the current situation is making many long-time members feel like they need to move on (including Claude of all people) then what’s the harm in trying it and seeing how it goes? We can always revisit the issue in a few months and see if it’s helping as intended, or causing problems, etc.

locked

3868 views

So, I only have one thing I want to respond to right now.

the number of times I’ve seen anyone post about Destiny in a way that I would describe as “toxic” or “venomous”.

So, this is going to use a Document Classification analogy because it is the clearest way for me to present the thought.

You start with a document. You know that there is nothing contained within the document which is explicitly classified. Nothing falls under the banner of "Confidential" or "Sensitive" or "Secret." So that document gets lumped in as "Unclassified." This occurs for the next 49 documents on the same subject. They are all "Unclassified" and they do not appear to be particularly problematic on their own.

So any individual document is Unclassified. However, once you bring those together as aggregated data, the combined information stored within may increase that classification level to "Secret" due to these combining factors.

So, while any individual post might not be of particular toxicity or very venomous, when taken as a whole the aggregation of the posts together is clearly more toxic and venom-filled than any individual item would imply.

locked

3861 views

So, I only have one thing I want to respond to right now.

the number of times I’ve seen anyone post about Destiny in a way that I would describe as “toxic” or “venomous”.

So, this is going to use a Document Classification analogy because it is the clearest way for me to present the thought.

You start with a document. You know that there is nothing contained within the document which is explicitly classified. Nothing falls under the banner of "Confidential" or "Sensitive" or "Secret." So that document gets lumped in as "Unclassified." This occurs for the next 49 documents on the same subject. They are all "Unclassified" and they do not appear to be particularly problematic on their own.

So any individual document is Unclassified. However, once you bring those together as aggregated data, the combined information stored within may increase that classification level to "Secret" due to these combining factors.

So, while any individual post might not be of particular toxicity or very venomous, when taken as a whole the aggregation of the posts together is clearly more toxic and venom-filled than any individual item would imply.

That’s a great point, and I’m sure what you’re describing is playing a part in what people are feeling.

I just wanted to say, for what little it’s worth, that I have encountered a sort of hard-lined “Bungie defence squad” that has, on occasion, quickly resorted to personal attacks and efforts to silence people who were making respectful criticisms of the game itself. I don’t bring this up to negate or dismiss anything that anyone else is saying. I just hope that in our collective efforts to help keep DBO the kind of place we all love to visit, that we try to improve in every way that we can.

locked

3814 views

I just wanted to say, for what little it’s worth, that I have encountered a sort of hard-lined “Bungie defence squad” that has, on occasion, quickly resorted to personal attacks and efforts to silence people who were making respectful criticisms of the game itself. I don’t bring this up to negate or dismiss anything that anyone else is saying. I just hope that in our collective efforts to help keep DBO the kind of place we all love to visit, that we try to improve in every way that we can.

This is actually also partly to combat that as well. If those people are sick of seeing the criticism now they don't have to and won't get angry and hurt their feelings.

locked

3879 views

So, I only have one thing I want to respond to right now.

the number of times I’ve seen anyone post about Destiny in a way that I would describe as “toxic” or “venomous”.

So, this is going to use a Document Classification analogy because it is the clearest way for me to present the thought.

You start with a document. You know that there is nothing contained within the document which is explicitly classified. Nothing falls under the banner of "Confidential" or "Sensitive" or "Secret." So that document gets lumped in as "Unclassified." This occurs for the next 49 documents on the same subject. They are all "Unclassified" and they do not appear to be particularly problematic on their own.

So any individual document is Unclassified. However, once you bring those together as aggregated data, the combined information stored within may increase that classification level to "Secret" due to these combining factors.

So, while any individual post might not be of particular toxicity or very venomous, when taken as a whole the aggregation of the posts together is clearly more toxic and venom-filled than any individual item would imply.

That’s a great point, and I’m sure what you’re describing is playing a part in what people are feeling.

I just wanted to say, for what little it’s worth, that I have encountered a sort of hard-lined “Bungie defence squad” that has, on occasion, quickly resorted to personal attacks and efforts to silence people who were making respectful criticisms of the game itself. I don’t bring this up to negate or dismiss anything that anyone else is saying. I just hope that in our collective efforts to help keep DBO the kind of place we all love to visit, that we try to improve in every way that we can.

Yes, well, the past is in the past. If all you are able to do is bring that up then still nothing is solved. What else have you got?

locked

3871 views

I feel like during the early days of D1, DBO was filled with just as many criticisms or complaints about the game. But there was lots of other stuff being posted as well. It rounded-out the overall tone of the forums. But these days, people just don’t seem to get excited about Destiny in a way that makes them want to write positive/fun/creative posts as often.

This is totally true, we do need more engagement from the “other side” but we aren’t going to get it. We have seen that proven over the past few years. And again, many of those people who did post the creative, awesome stuff but who aren’t here now didn’t just wander off because they weren’t interested. They expressly told those of us who remained that they left because of the way things around here felt to them. To write that off as simply a lack of general enthusiasm is, in my view, not at all correct.

locked

3839 views

I feel like during the early days of D1, DBO was filled with just as many criticisms or complaints about the game. But there was lots of other stuff being posted as well. It rounded-out the overall tone of the forums. But these days, people just don’t seem to get excited about Destiny in a way that makes them want to write positive/fun/creative posts as often.

This is totally true, we do need more engagement from the “other side” but we aren’t going to get it. We have seen that proven over the past few years. And again, many of those people who did post the creative, awesome stuff but who aren’t here now didn’t just wander off because they weren’t interested. They expressly told those of us who remained that they left because of the way things around here felt to them. To write that off as simply a lack of general enthusiasm is, in my view, not at all correct.

So, I can’t say I disagree with you, but I must say I have a slightly different perspective/memory. Most of the specific people I’m thinking of still post here regularly... they’re just not putting the time into creating Destiny-related content that they used to. And speaking purely for myself, I only ever found DBO to be enthusiastic and welcoming to any of my Destiny creations. The community has nothing to do with why I’ve stopped. It’s just me and my feelings towards the game.

But looking at the larger community, I just don’t see Destiny content coming from the usual sources, with very few exceptions. Fan art, machinima, screenshots, fan fiction, cosplay... a lot of the people I follow are still creating these kinds of things, but none of it is Destiny related anymore. And I don’t think it’s accurate to blame that on the mood of the community. At least not entirely. That’s too simplistic of an explaination.

It could very well be a bit of a “chicken and egg” situation. I’m sure the tone of the community is playing a role. But we can’t sit here and pretend that there aren’t a great many people for whom Destiny has failed to capture their imagination the way Halo did. And many of those people might still play Destiny and have fun with their friends. But very few franchises ever enjoy the kind of vibrant and creatively engaged community that Halo had in its prime. Maybe Destiny just isn’t that kind of game for as many people as Halo was. And maybe that’s totally ok.

locked

3833 views

I feel like during the early days of D1, DBO was filled with just as many criticisms or complaints about the game. But there was lots of other stuff being posted as well. It rounded-out the overall tone of the forums. But these days, people just don’t seem to get excited about Destiny in a way that makes them want to write positive/fun/creative posts as often.

This is totally true, we do need more engagement from the “other side” but we aren’t going to get it. We have seen that proven over the past few years. And again, many of those people who did post the creative, awesome stuff but who aren’t here now didn’t just wander off because they weren’t interested. They expressly told those of us who remained that they left because of the way things around here felt to them. To write that off as simply a lack of general enthusiasm is, in my view, not at all correct.

So, I can’t say I disagree with you, but I must say I have a slightly different perspective/memory. Most of the specific people I’m thinking of still post here regularly... they’re just not putting the time into creating Destiny-related content that they used to. And speaking purely for myself, I only ever found DBO to be enthusiastic and welcoming to any of my Destiny creations. The community has nothing to do with why I’ve stopped. It’s just me and my feelings towards the game.

But looking at the larger community, I just don’t see Destiny content coming from the usual sources, with very few exceptions. Fan art, machinima, screenshots, fan fiction, cosplay... a lot of the people I follow are still creating these kinds of things, but none of it is Destiny related anymore. And I don’t think it’s accurate to blame that on the mood of the community. At least not entirely. That’s too simplistic of an explaination.

It could very well be a bit of a “chicken and egg” situation. I’m sure the tone of the community is playing a role. But we can’t sit here and pretend that there aren’t a great many people for whom Destiny has failed to capture their imagination the way Halo did. And many of those people might still play Destiny and have fun with their friends. But very few franchises ever enjoy the kind of vibrant and creatively engaged community that Halo had in its prime. Maybe Destiny just isn’t that kind of game for as many people as Halo was. And maybe that’s totally ok.

Part of it is surely decisions Bungie made, like not including private matches at the start of either D1 or D2. Where are ya gonna make Red vs Blue in Destiny 2 right now, for instance? As for the larger community... meh, I don’t care so much about the larger community. In the Halo days, the larger community was the Bungie.net forums which were always pretty crazy, and maybe NeoGaf which had this odd exclusivity about it. (I never got in, at least...) But neither of which matter too much because HBO was an awesome place with a thriving Front Page and Story Page and lot of other stuff.

For Destiny, the larger communities have meant Reddit, which has always had an air of unreasonableness and negativity, just a lot more so now, and the rise of the Influencers who, to me, wavered from frantically posting videos about every little thing to sliding quickly into complaints about meta whenever things changed or didn’t go the way they liked. I am strongly of the opinion that courting them as heavily as Bungie did was a mistake. Because they would soon start influencing in a way that Bungie did not want. And that has now happened.

And yes, there is certainly a chicken and egg problem here. But we aren’t going to solve it by having a page full of critical posts like was true this weekend. (Seriously, 29 total posts by my count. 3 were positive [Gravity Rush 2, 4K TVs, post of silly Destiny videos] and the rest were either criticisms or had descended into heavy criticism]. That’s not the way to keep a community together.) We, you, I, all of us. need to look for ways to contribute beyond criticism. And yes, it’s going to take a bit of effort, but its either do that or see this place smothered.

For my part I have plans to:

- Continue No Longer Neglected. Next month I hoping people remember how to Haiku...
- Continue Bite-size Backstory. Next post is about Variks and has all sorts of interesting, probably not well known tidbits.
- Start up a weekly photo “contest” (contest in quotes ‘cause I ain’t got no prize for it.)
- Help make sure the Criticism/Feedback section is not just a place to dump topics us “pro-Destiny circle-jerk” people don’t like by writing and encouraging weekly essays on ways to improve Destiny 2. (I’m still working on the details and how to make what I’m doing different from what has already been happening here. I gots some ideas but they aren’t fully baked yet. )

Honestly, I’m pretty darn sure if we had a more favorable mix of non-critical vs critical posts we could drop this new Criticism category and go back to the way things were. But its not going to happen unless you and the others get off your encounter-suited butts and do something positive for this community.

locked

3844 views

- No text -

locked

3793 views

... to actually start my early-concept-stage Fantasy Destiny AU writings and art, then.

I know some people personally who are still creating, but their active push for sharing has diminished because while direct reception might be positive, the Destiny community at large is no longer as friendly a platform.

locked

3866 views

I had to work hard to get that all into the title...

Anyway, based on your post I believe you are describing something that is subject, not objective.

I'd actually put that line of communication down as what is sometimes seen as "negative". When you say that you "think" it's bad, it's an opinion, and I believe most of us here value opinions. If you say "This is objectively bad" you are stating a truth of the universe, thus implying that what should be a disagreement between individuals is instead communicated as being simply wrong, and holds no truth.

If you start an argument with me by stating that you hold the truth of the universe (instead of an experience within it) you are invalidating my opinion before we even get started.

Now, my examples and word definitions don't hold true for everything (such as science), but since this is all in the context of a video game and human communication, I believe it to be apt.

locked

3694 views

But you know what? When something is objectively bad? It's bad.

I think you're confused about facts and opinions, and what statements of quality fall under (opinions). I'll direct you to the Cody Miller Memorial School for the Opinion Challenged.

As a moderator, you are essentially required to screen every post.

That's not how it usually works. Usually stuff is allowed until it presents a problem. b.org only manages to (most of the time) get away with someone reading every post because the forums here are slow.

locked

3721 views

Hi! If you are reading this, you probably disagree of this recent decision by the Admins to add a Criticism slot in the Category options available to those who make a post. (Or are really nosy :P)

I ask all to whom decent, and I originally said this to one - but now I say it to all; If you don't like this option - What other things can we do? Bring solutions into your post. We might not be able to make Destiny directly, but we can do far more here @ D.B.O.

I ask this simply for one reason; If we have to put a criticism tag on a post introducing the criticism tag, well... that may be further credence for it's inception. Yes? I mean... geeze. It's honestly kinda silly.

TO further add to this - Xenos; Could you add further context in your post for how this decision was made. Not everyone frequents DBO, and as this post is the introduction of the feature, it would be nice to have in the first post. Because... you know. Communication. ;D

All in all I don't know if this will help, but I felt it worth the effort all the same.

Have a lovely day!

locked

3895 views

Not sure how much this will actually help, swapping out one word for another, but should this new category really be called “Criticism”? A critique feels like it can be positive and negative to me. Feedback can certainly be positive and negative. But Criticism? Maybe its not exactly the case, but the word Criticism feels negative to me.

Maybe this new category should be renamed “ Feedback”?

locked

3903 views

- No text -

locked

3872 views

Not sure how much this will actually help, swapping out one word for another, but should this new category really be called “Criticism”? A critique feels like it can be positive and negative to me. Feedback can certainly be positive and negative. But Criticism? Maybe its not exactly the case, but the word Criticism feels negative to me.

Maybe this new category should be renamed “ Feedback”?

I think "Critique" would be a good option to go with, "Feedback" works too. I suspect doing so could help it be seen as not only a "salt only" area, but as an area for more constructive posts.

locked

3679 views

But this seems like a good idea to me.

People who do not want to wade through criticism of the game generally aren't paying attention to it anyway, so nothing is really lost by doing this.

For what it's worth, this is nothing compared to the heaping mountains of salt we're seeing currently on the subreddit. It's to the point now that an entirely separate subreddit has been created which does not allow criticism at all. (They called it /r/LowSodiumDestiny.)

locked

3881 views

TO further add to this - Xenos; Could you add further context in your post for how this decision was made. Not everyone frequents DBO, and as this post is the introduction of the feature, it would be nice to have in the first post. Because... you know. Communication. ;D

Honestly it's been an idea many of the admins have had and discussed in the past. Many of us and many people we know have stopped visiting DBO or backed off visiting more and more not because of how they feel about Destiny (1 or 2) but because of the incredibly vocal minority who post negative opinions on the forum. It's always heart breaking when a DBO member decides to leave because they do not feel they can discuss Destiny, the topic of the forum, without being bombarded by negativity, especially from a small percentage of the forum-goers. We've even brought it up before that people have left because of it and those individuals seems to not bat an eye at the revelation, pointing to it being Bungie's fault and not their own.

When Claude made his post, the CREATOR of a site that some of us have been visiting for 20 years, stating that he was thinking of passing on the reigns, not because he was getting old (sorry Claude ;) ) but because of the deluge of negativity we decided it was time to seriously consider implementing the feature.

The option is completely opt-in not opt-out. If people make no changes they will see every single post on the forum. However if some people wish to not see negativity on a forum where they want to discuss what they are doing in the game, or fan fiction, or videos, or gifs about Destiny, then I think we can make that possible without doing something ridiculous like banning the people who clearly want a place to discuss their problems with the game and/or Bungie.

locked

4110 views

It's fluke that I'm able to post today. Timing was on my side. Had I not been "here" as posts were being posted, I would probably have missed the relevant posts and been one of those here dissenting to this idea.

Thanks Xenos. :)

(Edit: It would probably be better in the first post, and not buried here, but... eh. We'll see.)

locked

3891 views

It's fluke that I'm able to post today. Timing was on my side. Had I not been "here" as posts were being posted, I would probably have missed the relevant posts and been one of those here dissenting to this idea.

Thanks Xenos. :)

(Edit: It would probably be better in the first post, and not buried here, but... eh. We'll see.)

Yeah, I added a link to that post :) I want to leave the main one relatively self contained.

locked

3856 views

- No text -

locked

3842 views

Having read every comment (because, you know, I don't just want to hide under a rock from the scary people who disagree with me), I still think it's an extremely dumb move. However, I do often have to remind myself that there are some very sensitive people, so I can understand how some of them might think that this is a great idea.

The option is completely opt-in not opt-out.

That's such a stupid argument, man. Let's apply it to real life:

Oh, you're going to your political debates? Don't worry, you can mute people on the other party! Does this make debate more difficult and impossible to find a middle ground, while promoting willful ignorance? Nonsense! It's opt-in! Most people will surely not even use it, therefore, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it!

And I already know that it's by Thread, not by individual post. I never said anything that implied that. Still, with an admin's itchy finger on the trigger, entire worthwhile threads can be completely hidden from people who might otherwise engage, since it juuuust so happened to be too critical of the game for the admin who decided to admin.

If people make no changes they will see every single post on the forum. However if some people wish to not see negativity on a forum where they want to discuss what they are doing in the game, or fan fiction, or videos, or gifs about Destiny, then I think we can make that possible without doing something ridiculous like banning the people who clearly want a place to discuss their problems with the game and/or Bungie.

See, you're whining about all this negativity, but what have you or the people that want this filter done to bring more positivity to the forum? Where is this wonderful engagement that you claim to be missing out on because it gets lost in the apparently endless sea of toxic posts? It's an overreaction triggered by Claude feeling exasperated by the general negativity all around. Heck, I can't even share this useful Fallout review of the Graviton Forfeit, because even he is full of salt towards Bungie and D2 in the video. I GET IT. I understand exactly where Claude and others are coming from, and so a dialogue is needed.

Throwing in a filter to drown out dissenting opinions (remember that you specifically chose the term "Criticism") is not the solution.
The dialogue and conversations in this thread are a step towards a solution, and are something that the people of the forum have had as adults, because the people here are adults, though some want to cover their ears and go 'la-la-la' while they wait for someone else to make the Forum better for them, and a couple of the admins who don't even engage around here anyway decided that they automagically know what's best for the entire community.

If Claude agreed to it, then it's whatever, because it's his forum (though from the way he worded it, I don't get the feeling that he had the final say). But I say it's discouraging, and will just make folks think twice about starting their own threads if they're not here to sing songs about Bungie.

locked

3908 views

If Claude agreed to it, then it's whatever, because it's his forum (though from the way he worded it, I don't get the feeling thathe had the final say).

If you think we'd do this without his say so you don't know us as well as you think. I'd tell you the brief conversation, but I think it's better if Claude gives his thoughts instead of it coming through a third party.

locked

3883 views

See, you're whining about all this negativity, but what have you or the people that want this filter done to bring more positivity to the forum?

If only positivity was allowed and nearly every new topic descended (eh... ascended?) into people making known how great Bungie was and how awesome the latest thing they said was, some people would be turned off by that too. We need to have something closer to a balance. Right now we have nothing near a balance. And, if you want more positivity, then help out. Contribute.

That said, I agree in part, as well. I think that some of those “in charge” around here have been or were the first to back away and in their own ways contributed to the state the forum is in now. No single group deserves all the blame, but if everyone would make an effort to help out, we could make this a place a lot more people actually want to engage with...

locked

3858 views

Having read every comment (because, you know, I don't just want to hide under a rock from the scary people who disagree with me),
That's such a stupid argument, man. Let's apply it to real life:

And I already know that it's by Thread, not by individual post. I never said anything that implied that. Still, with an admin's itchy finger on the trigger

See, you're whining about all this negativity,

It's an overreaction triggered by Claude feeling exasperated by the general negativity all around.

I understand exactly where Claude and others are coming from, and so a dialogue is needed.

Throwing in a filter todrown out dissenting opinions (remember that you specifically chose the term "Criticism") is not the solution.

and a couple of the admins who don't even engage around here anyway decided that theyautomagically know what's best for the entire community.

If Claude agreed to it, then it's whatever, because it's his forum (though from the way he worded it, I don't get the feeling that he had the final say). But I say it's discouraging, and will just make folks think twice about starting their own threads if they're not here to sing songs about Bungie.

I'll call an elephant an elephant. You post is chalk full of condescending words and phrasing. You ask zero questions of Xenos or the community, you posit no solutions. You claim to understand the community, its problems, and the motivations of people, yet fail at expressing anything close to empathy, instead taking pot shots at the community.

It is Impossible to have an "adult" conversation when you make no argument or suggestions. You are literally "against" instead of being "for" something. I don't think I'm asking too much of you to review your posts and ask yourself the following questions:
"Am I being constructive or destructive?"
"Am I communicating positively or negatively towards the community and people?"
"Am I being condescending or respectful of ideas and people?

You can critique without berating. You can point out problems and still be friendly. There is a time and place for anger, but you can express that anger without belittling the people around you.

If you want an adult conversation act like an adult. This post and a few others of yours come across to me like a bratty teen that exclaims the world is unfair, yelling "no no no!" instead of articulating your position, and how you think your position and path forward is better while respecting those of others.

locked

3706 views

If Claude agreed to it, then it's whatever, because it's his forum (though from the way he worded it, I don't get the feeling that he had the final say). But I say it's discouraging, and will just make folks think twice about starting their own threads if they're not here to sing songs about Bungie.

It's not my forum. Well, I suppose I host it... but it was created to give a community that loves Bungie and its games a place to congregate. It has been, like all B.org forums before it, A PRODUCT OF ITS VISITORS, not its hosts.

I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest I didn't have the final say; I'm not sure there WAS a final say. Xenos told me about the idea, and asked if it would be an okay thing to try out. I said I thought it was a good idea. Does that mean I had the final say? I guess, maybe. (But as I was trying, badly, to explain to Speed last night, when someone is set up as an admin here, they have admin privs. That doesn't mean they get to do what they want as long as I agree - it means they get to do what they think is right. I think it's a (small) credit to my judgement skills that they ARE asking before they set it up... but they didn't have to. If I'd said "I don't think it's a very good idea", they could have said "okay, thanks for the feedback, we're gonna try it anyway" - and I would have been okay with that.)

I have received a surprising number of emails this morning from people I haven't talked to in quite a long time - a decade and a half, in one case. To a person, they wanted to reach out and offer spots on raid teams, time for nightfall runs, just screwing-around-in-destiny time. They're people I didn't even know were still playing Bungie games - and every single one of them is unhappy with the tenor of this place, which is why they aren't here.

I'd love to bring some of those people back into the fold. You might think this will stifle 'free expression', or 'honest debate'... but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

Please never forget that we're not talking about health care, or taxes, or climate change - we're talking about video games. We're talking about something that's supposed to be an escape, a fun diversion. And if all the conversation is negative... then it's not that. (And don't for a MINUTE think that you're being 'constructive' and helping Bungie know what's wrong with what they're doing. You're not - they hear all that negativity, and more, in other, more relevant places. They don't come here to check the community barometer, that's for sure.)

locked

3731 views

- No text -

locked

3668 views

I have received a surprising number of emails this morning from people I haven't talked to in quite a long time - a decade and a half, in one case. To a person, they wanted to reach out and offer spots on raid teams, time for nightfall runs, just screwing-around-in-destiny time. They're people I didn't even know were still playing Bungie games - and every single one of them is unhappy with the tenor of this place, which is why they aren't here.

I'd love to bring some of those people back into the fold. You might think this will stifle 'free expression', or 'honest debate'... but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

I played with Mig for the first time maybe ever in the Raid Lair a couple of times a few weeks ago. I don’t know him, other than just as one of the old bloods that used to be here and at HBO. It bums me out that he (and tons of other formerly recognizable community members) aren’t here. It bums me out that anyone feels like this place can’t be for them anymore. I want to try whatever it takes to change that.

locked

3691 views

If Claude agreed to it, then it's whatever, because it's his forum (though from the way he worded it, I don't get the feeling that he had the final say). But I say it's discouraging, and will just make folks think twice about starting their own threads if they're not here to sing songs about Bungie.

I'm not sure what you mean when you suggest I didn't have the final say; I'm not sure there WAS a final say. Xenos told me about the idea, and asked if it would be an okay thing to try out. I said I thought it was a good idea. Does that mean I had the final say? I guess, maybe. (But as I was trying, badly, to explain to Speed last night, when someone is set up as an admin here, they have admin privs. That doesn't mean they get to do what they want as long as I agree - it means they get to do what they think is right. I think it's a (small) credit to my judgement skills that they ARE asking before they set it up... but they didn't have to. If I'd said "I don't think it's a very good idea", they could have said "okay, thanks for the feedback, we're gonna try it anyway" - and I would have been okay with that.)

Yeah, that's the vibe that I was getting, which you're confirming (huh, guess #Xenoswaswrong yet again). I felt that it was obviously run by you, but that the implementation was not specifically at your behest, but was made by someone who felt that he knew better. And that's fine, I suppose. Just gotta make sure that certain folks don't start abusing that (which, when it comes to something like 'criticism', this thread has shown that many people have different levels of interpretation for it).
Like we were discussing last night, some folks tend to jump the gun rather than addressing the problem or talking with others. The B.org community has always done a fine job of managing itself and shooing away the Spiders who would build cobwebs of toxicity.
It's worked out well for nearly two decades, I think.

I have received a surprising number of emails this morning from people I haven't talked to in quite a long time - a decade and a half, in one case. To a person, they wanted to reach out and offer spots on raid teams, time for nightfall runs, just screwing-around-in-destiny time. They're people I didn't even know were still playing Bungie games - and every single one of them is unhappy with the tenor of this place, which is why they aren't here.

I would say that the onus is definitely on the community to make the place more welcoming and friendly. As others have noted, people around here don't really engage as much as they did when Halo was good, and that's a bummer. Whether it has to do with Destiny itself, Bungie and their issues, or the people around here, everyone has their reasons. It just surprises me how many people complain about people complaining, without contributing any of the nice things that they want. That's a factor that drives people away as well, I'd wager.
I want to see more from those people.

I'd love to bring some of those people back into the fold. You might think this will stifle 'free expression', or 'honest debate'... but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

I mean, they'd have to go out of their way to register, find, and disable the "Criticism" topic (and be aware of that as an option in the first place), otherwise the forum will appear the same as it was before the change. Again, if nobody bothers to contribute positive things, then nothing is really changing for the better, is it?

Please never forget that we're not talking about health care, or taxes, or climate change - we're talking about video games. We're talking about something that's supposed to be an escape, a fun diversion. And if all the conversation is negative... then it's not that. (And don't for a MINUTE think that you're being 'constructive' and helping Bungie know what's wrong with what they're doing. You're not - they hear all that negativity, and more, in other, more relevant places. They don't come here to check the community barometer, that's for sure.)

And the folks around here tend to pretentiously turn up their nose at those other places, so you can understand why the same complaints are made here as well. But yeah, video games are supposed to be about fun, and getting your time and money's worth out of the product that you bought (two areas where Bungie has clearly stumbled for a passionate segment of the community). Sometimes being a part of a community helps both of those things, and sometimes it's just an outlet for people to express their own creativity or thoughts. All good things, which is why I don't like that some people are given the power to hide the thoughts that some have from others, just because they don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform to the way they want to think.

Which is what this does.
But yeah, I too want this community to reach its potential, and I do want it to be welcoming, so I want the people who complain about the negativity to make it so, without trying to tuck any differing opinions away in a hide-able corner of the forum. That just makes it discouraging for the people who are actually engaging and bothering to be active members of the community, since they will have to be wary of the admin looming over posts, looking for criticism.

locked

3733 views

Yeah, that's the vibe that I was getting, which you're confirming (huh, guess #Xenoswaswrong yet again).

Huh? You make no sense or don't know how to interpret. If he had not said it was a good idea we would not have done it. How is that NOT the final say? Sure Claude says he would have let us do it anyway, but that's NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

locked

3711 views

Just gotta make sure that certain folks don't start abusing that (which, when it comes to something like 'criticism', this thread has shown that many people have different levels of interpretation for it).

You missed my point. If someone has the ABILITY to 'abuse' it, they can. That's the way this place runs. That's the way B.org has ALWAYS run. If someone is given the keys to the outhouse, they can do whatever they like in there.

If someone has been given the keys, it means I trust they WON'T abuse it. This is something I haven't been wrong about (again, in 20 years of B.org sites).

It just surprises me how many people complain about people complaining, without contributing any of the nice things that they want. That's a factor that drives people away as well, I'd wager.
I want to see more from those people.

Yeah... if you look closely, you'll find that one of the biggest 'complainers about complaints' is me. Like, by a mile.

I feel like I've done a few things to contribute, but maybe I'm fooling myself.

locked

3749 views

And the folks around here tend to pretentiously turn up their nose at those other places, so you can understand why the same complaints are made here as well. But yeah, video games are supposed to be about fun, and getting your time and money's worth out of the product that you bought (two areas where Bungie has clearly stumbled for a passionate segment of the community). Sometimes being a part of a community helps both of those things, and sometimes it's just an outlet for people to express their own creativity or thoughts. All good things, which is why I don't like that some people are given the power to hide the thoughts that some have from others, just because they don't want to hear anything that doesn't conform to the way they want to think.

Which is what this does.
But yeah, I too want this community to reach its potential, and I do want it to be welcoming, so I want the people who complain about the negativity to make it so, without trying to tuck any differing opinions away in a hide-able corner of the forum. That just makes it discouraging for the people who are actually engaging and bothering to be active members of the community, since they will have to be wary of the admin looming over posts, looking for criticism.

Why do they have to be? What do they care if someone has chosen not to see their criticism? For the record, I'll probably never use the filter, but I think it's a good option to try if only because no one is being asked to change their behavior if they don't want to.

I think you miss the point of the filter, though. I think I might speak for others when I say that if I were to use it, it would not be to hide anything that doesn't conform to the way I want to think, it would be that I've already heard the criticisms dozens of times often from the same people. The cumulative effect of that is the source of the toxicity, in my mind, and THAT'S what wears me down, personally.

locked

3672 views

It's funny that people resort to that kind of name calling when they're often the most sensitive person in the conversation. This has clearly triggered you.

Kermit is correct. You have a profound misunderstanding of why anyone would want to use a filter.

I think you miss the point of the filter, though. I think I might speak for others when I say that if I were to use it, it would not be to hide anything that doesn't conform to the way I want to think, it would be that I've already heard the criticisms dozens of times often from the same people. The cumulative effect of that is the source of the toxicity, in my mind, and THAT'S what wears me down, personally.

It's not about people being snowflakes as you call it. It's so people have the choice to manage the intake of unproductive arguments about a video game (not health care, or social justice issues etc). And it ins't just because people disagree, it's the way those arguments are often framed.

It's also hilarious to me that you perceive yourself to be fighting some war against "The Man" who wants to censor you and your free speech. I've mentioned my own discomfort with the filters, but you're going downright conspiracy-theory-nutcase on us over it (Xenos is waiting in the wings to oppress free thought!). While doing this, you fail to meet the basic modicum of respectful discourse. That is the worst part of it for me. You're clearly a bright guy. I agree with a lot of your ideas/concerns. But damn, you have zero respect for anybody. The way you frame things doesn't invite conversation or any sort of back and forth. You attempt to make people out to be fools if they don't agree with you. That's just kind of a lame/lazy form of argument. I understand wanting to tune that out.

For the record. I like A LOT of what you bring to the table. You do things for the community and I love your enthusiasm. I'm just focusing on this conversation and your pattern of engaging in arguments.

locked

3686 views

It just surprises me how many people complain about people complaining, without contributing any of the nice things that they want. That's a factor that drives people away as well, I'd wager.

I don't think there is any truth to this honestly. I know there are users that do complain about the people complaining, but they're doing so because it's a horde of people just spreading hate and adding nothing constructive to the conversation.

The only people I could see being driven away by this kind of thing are the ones who are solely there to spread said hate, and chances are it won't even do that. On top of that, those users are trying to make an argument for making the forums a better place by stopping the hate and making things constructive, so I'd say that in itself is a contribution.

locked

3642 views

Like we were discussing last night, some folks tend to jump the gun rather than addressing the problem or talking with others. The B.org community has always done a fine job of managing itself and shooing away the Spiders who would build cobwebs of toxicity.
the Spiders

you can fuck off, even if no one else here knows or remembers SESpider I remember your little character assassination to try to drive him away (for the crime of having typos and disagreeing with you)
you are not some heroic crusader, you're not even a truth-teller

I would say that the onus is definitely on the community to make the place more welcoming and friendly. As others have noted, people around here don't really engage as much as they did when Halo was good, and that's a bummer. Whether it has to do with Destiny itself, Bungie and their issues, or the people around here, everyone has their reasons. It just surprises me how many people complain about people complaining, without contributing any of the nice things that they want. That's a factor that drives people away as well, I'd wager.
I want to see more from those people.

if they're anything like me, they're staying away because of people like you

locked

3778 views

but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

It's sad that you think it's NO LONGER a home for people who love Bungie and their games.

But what if it can't go back? The fans are ever changing. Bungie is ever changing. Their games are ever changing.

Maybe a natural death is in order at some point if the community can't sustain itself.

locked

3709 views

but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

It's sad that you think it's NO LONGER a home for people who love Bungie and their games.

But what if it can't go back? The fans are ever changing. Bungie is ever changing. Their games are ever changing.

Maybe a natural death is in order at some point if the community can't sustain itself.

Sure, that's a possibilty, and sure, I was thinking about walking away yesterday, letting it 'die a natural death', or change into something else, or whatever. (Still am, I guess, though I'm a bit less sure after some of this discussion.)

I guess we'll see.

locked

3755 views

but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

It's sad that you think it's NO LONGER a home for people who love Bungie and their games.

But what if it can't go back? The fans are ever changing. Bungie is ever changing. Their games are ever changing.

Maybe a natural death is in order at some point if the community can't sustain itself.

Sure, that's a possibilty, and sure, I was thinking about walking away yesterday, letting it 'die a natural death', or change into something else, or whatever. (Still am, I guess, though I'm a bit less sure after some of this discussion.)

I guess we'll see.

Whatever you think your role here to be, you walking away would actually be the death of the forum for me. I know that’s not your intention at all, but I legitimately don’t think I could visit this place if it drove away its creator.

locked

3683 views

The tone of the whole place wouldn’t feel the same. Content changes or not.

locked

3647 views

but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

It's sad that you think it's NO LONGER a home for people who love Bungie and their games.

But what if it can't go back? The fans are ever changing. Bungie is ever changing. Their games are ever changing.

Maybe a natural death is in order at some point if the community can't sustain itself.

Sure, that's a possibilty, and sure, I was thinking about walking away yesterday, letting it 'die a natural death', or change into something else, or whatever. (Still am, I guess, though I'm a bit less sure after some of this discussion.)

I guess we'll see.

I feel like that's what made Bungie.org the best fan site in existence - your keys to the outhouse metaphor. If you can no longer give the keys freely, then it's over and it just becomes like every other bathroom.

locked

3680 views

but I think it might turn this place back into what it was started as - a home for people who loved Bungie and their games.

It's sad that you think it's NO LONGER a home for people who love Bungie and their games.

But what if it can't go back? The fans are ever changing. Bungie is ever changing. Their games are ever changing.

Maybe a natural death is in order at some point if the community can't sustain itself.

Sure, that's a possibilty, and sure, I was thinking about walking away yesterday, letting it 'die a natural death', or change into something else, or whatever. (Still am, I guess, though I'm a bit less sure after some of this discussion.)

I guess we'll see.

Me thinks you underestimate the influence of your hosting symbiosis. A quality of character + 20 years will do that, always will. Time tends to such affects. Like it or not, you're one of the village elders. A constant flame in what you created.

As I said yesterday in reply to the post that sparked all this, you aren't going to be host forever. It isn't a pleasant conversation, but it's an honest one to have.

My oft-mentioned original internet home, Halomods, didn't have a plan. TO what I recall, as I'm talking mid-2000s here; When the founding admin Grenadiac parted ways with the site (as he became a father), the atmosphere of the site changed. This would happen again and again intill Halomods got a host who was clueless beyond clueless. That's when the site burned down. Sacked like so many barbarians in Rome. I should note there were also external factors that effected the site, as it's far easier to mod PC then Console simply by access alone.

I'll end this hope of incite by saying, the only reason Halomods still exists on the live net at all is due to kornman00 saving the remaining data that wasn't lost from incompetence. It's a dead site now all in all, an archive.

A monument to all our sins. V_V

I don't want that to happen here. I don't want to see such things happen again to an internet community. Scattered to the winds. As others have said, this place is a gem on the net. How do we keep it? And can we?

All said, there is my 2¢.

locked

3681 views

That's such a stupid argument, man. Let's apply it to real life:

Oh, you're going to your political debates? Don't worry, you can mute people on the other party! Does this make debate more difficult and impossible to find a middle ground, while promoting willful ignorance? Nonsense! It's opt-in! Most people will surely not even use it, therefore, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it!

the fuck are you even saying? how is this possible in real life and why would anyone do it?
and yes, what difference would it actually make? tons of people already ignore a political view they disagree with on principle, and in fact hearing a dissenting argument often makes people hold onto their side tighter (admittedly the same goes for hearing an agreeing argument, depending on the person)
you're not getting at the heart of what you're attempting to attack, which is opt-in versus opt-out/automatic, let alone forced

locked

3749 views

...keep your personal animosity towards Korny off the forum, okay?

You jumped into this (relatively civil) thread many days after it had died away, and filled it full of personal attacks. That's completely unnecessary - it adds nothing constructive to the conversation, and starts fights that will drag on for days.

If you want to contribute suggestions, that's fine - but repeating what's already been said (in much ruder terms, to boot) is unhelpful.

locked

3655 views

...keep your personal animosity towards Korny off the forum, okay?

this isn't about that, maybe that leaked a bit but he's (badly) trying to strongarm things

You jumped into this (relatively civil) thread

except for his posts, yes

many days after it had died away,

hi I'm Vagueness, have we met?
but seriously, I just found out about this thread, and like I said, the same kind of thing that's been pushing you away pushed me away, that's why I'm not here on a regular basis (and the days when I'd read every post stopped even before that)

and filled it full of personal attacks.

most of what I posted wasn't that

That's completely unnecessary - it adds nothing constructive to the conversation, and starts fights that will drag on for days.

I do sincerely apologize if that happens, but you should know that usually I don't get any replies at the end of a thread
I do sincerely apologize for not taking a little bit more time to separate personal feelings and what's good for the forum

If you want to contribute suggestions, that's fine - but repeating what's already been said (in much ruder terms, to boot) is unhelpful.

I suggest keeping the "Criticism" category and maybe adding a few more to make things more clear for everyone and cut down on fears of "censorship" and slippery slopes and bans
I have other suggestions but I've told you those before

locked

3583 views

I do sincerely apologize for contributing to any perceived negativity. I know I have. I'll consider that in the future.

I don't, however, like the tone of most of this thread. If this place is so negative, why aren't the folks who are more positive posting anything? Besides Ragashingo putting in real work with his backstory posts and attempted fan fiction revival, I don't see many other people combating the said negativity with anything positive. Instead it seems like people are just throwing their hands up in the air and calling it a lost cause, and that sort of sucks.

Where are the stupid raid stories? The recounting of stupid and fun gameplay experiences? The dumb videos, the screenshots?

Is it because we're in a dead zone between content? Is it because lots of people are currently not playing?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I'm genuinely curious.

I have heard people say in the past it's just because they don't want to post and be bombarded with more negativity, but I don't buy that. I won't tell anyone what to do or how to feel or lay any responsibility at anyone's feet, but that's not being the change you want to see. It feels like a lot of people are complaining about the perceived negativity without actually trying to change it except by telling the people with criticisms to go sit in the corner.

I actually really don't see the negativity that other apparently do. I do see lots of criticism, and I've actively contributed quite a bit to that. I don't think that's the same thing as negativity, though, and other than a few rare examples, I haven't seen much that's overly negative and mocking of the game or Bungie.

I love this place, and despite never having actually met anyone of you, I'd consider many of you to be friends. I hate to see this place fall apart. As I said before, you all are mostly the reason I'm still here, and a large part of the reason I still pay attention to Destiny at all. I keep hoping the game will give me a reason to be excited about it again, if only to give me a reason to continue interacting with you fine folks.

locked

3877 views

I give it 10:1 that it's because after a point being positive about Destiny hear becomes exhausting. There are loads of places I can go to be inundated with negativity. But I come here most days looking to see that ray of rational sunshine. They exist, but they also get drowned really quickly.

For example, I made a post at the start of the month which was made to be about constructive criticism and ways that I felt Destiny 2 could be improved. Attempting to avoid being too hard on what was and instead focused on what could be. There was 1 reply. Earlier that day another thread, which did not start as negative, very quickly became that way (I did participate in this thread as well) and got over two-hundred-and-fifty replies. I'm not gonna reread the whole thread to check, but me recollection was that a lot of it was neither constructive nor conducive to attempts at positive discourse.

A lot of folks being positive here get dismissed in reference to a perceived negative about what they are being positive about. Just look at any post that has any incline to be favorable towards the inclusion and application of Eververse.

It is hard to be positive when it makes you a magnet to be drug down.

locked

3856 views

...
For example, I made a post at the start of the month which was made to be about constructive criticism and ways that I felt Destiny 2 could be improved. Attempting to avoid being too hard on what was and instead focused on what could be. There was 1 reply. Earlier that day another thread, which did not start as negative, very quickly became that way (I did participate in this thread as well) and got over two-hundred-and-fifty replies. I'm not gonna reread the whole thread to check, but me recollection was that a lot of it was neither constructive nor conducive to attempts at positive discourse.

...

The no pictures part I mean. It was all very dry and straight to the point. I'm glad I didn't have homework to do off of it afterwords or I would be having flash backs.

/:P

I didn't post as I had nothing to add. It was overall quite good. What more was there to say? I had nothing to add.

locked

3876 views

I didn't post as I had nothing to add. It was overall quite good. What more was there to say? I had nothing to add.

Which is totally fair! I was mostly trying to make the comparison with how much easier it is to contribute to something when you are holding a hand of beeves instead of in agreement or support of things. NGL, when I first say the "+1" thing showing up and becoming a popular thing I thought it was silly. At this point it's probably the most common thing used here to show positive support of things.

locked

3814 views

- No text -

locked

3821 views

As someone who is still feeling this place out and hasn't really integrated here yet, I will say that I do feel hesitant to discuss certain things I have enjoyed about this game because I know they will get criticized as soon as I bring them up. This is a pretty respectful community and I don't think anyone here would attack me for enjoying something, but I do think some of you see the existence of a topic as an invitation to start in with the negativity because that's how you feel, which is understandable, but you've got to understand that I'm wanting to post it here (in this hypothetical situation) because I enjoyed it.

It's not a malicious thing or even a deliberate thing, and I want to take a moment to say that this community has impressed me greatly with its maturity and I want to continue my slow crawl toward becoming a more regular poster here (although I'll only get to be so regular before the rest of my life gets in the way), but the waterfall of negativity can definitely have an effect on the people who are coming here in search of positivity.

I come here by way of the subreddit, so trust me, this is nooooooothing compared to what's going on over there. You'd think the world had ended.

locked

3880 views

I have heard people say in the past it's just because they don't want to post and be bombarded with more negativity, but I don't buy that.

I personally have not posted things because of this. There have been many times in the past when I have posted something to the forums and either gotten negative replies (not usually about my post, but the topic degrades to negativity, or more commonly a megathread (or two, or three) that has arguing in it pushes my topic down enough that people don't know it's there. It happens quite a bit actually.

locked

3912 views

I have heard people say in the past it's just because they don't want to post and be bombarded with more negativity, but I don't buy that.

I personally have not posted things because of this. There have been many times in the past when I have posted something to the forums and either gotten negative replies (not usually about my post, but the topic degrades to negativity, or more commonly a megathread (or two, or three) that has arguing in it pushes my topic down enough that people don't know it's there. It happens quite a bit actually.

I'm naturally sort of a cynic, so I guess maybe I just don't register that negativity in the same way.

I'll agree that it sucks, though. I genuinely don't want it to be like that. I like this community too much to see it fall apart.

I genuinely hadn't considered most of the criticism here as "negativity," but I can understand how it would be perceived that way, and I can understand how some would see it as overwhelming.

I'll seriously consider my replies and posts in the future--I have been very critical and cynical lately, but I genuinely did not realize it was contributing to anything like what's being discussed.

Let's all be better, wherever we can.

locked

3864 views

Is that meta or what? We are now seeing criticism of the Criticism tab, which was implemented to flag criticism for those who don't want to see criticism.

I have no point. This is probably not the most productive post I could have made at this moment in time. Just maybe chill out with the criticism, guys, you're literally criticizing Criticism now.

locked

3883 views

- No text -

locked

3837 views

- No text -

locked

3839 views

Not that I post much or am good at making points but here it goes...

I completely understand where the Category addition is helpful. To Claude's point, who wants to read the same negative views over and over. It's why I don't watch the news. I cant stand it, "OH GOD TRUMP DID A DUMB THING".... ok and this is news? a year later? Sue me. The same can be said about the negative posts on the forums, at this point its not really news, just reiterating the same ideas, and over time it turns into salty posts because nothings been changed yet. Totally understand, and that is why I think the Category is a great idea. Destiny 2 may not be the best game, but for some people it is. I know plenty of people that only want to have a good time, regardless of the state, and just enjoy playing a game. They do not want to have their leisure turned into a political debate/shitstorm and there is nothing wrong with that.

On the flip side, I believe that critical discussion is needed and shouldn't be filtered. Moderated! but not filtered. The admins are not trying to filter it out, they are leaving that up to the user to choose what they see. I would watch the news again if I could filter out in no direct order "TRUMP/Taxes/Government/potentially racially motivated crime/etc" and instead just see the weather and some sports scores. But over time, I would have a really unrealistic view of whats going on in the world wouldn't I? That can cause some problems.

Some people can also be too critical. I see people who shake their salt shaker on here quite often. They spend more time salting around here than they do playing the actual game. I get it, You WANT Destiny to be better, its not there yet, so you're irritated. I probably fall into this category of belief, but I don't go out of my way to spread that negativity. To people who spend more time criticizing the game than even playing it, I would ask that you take a look at how you are valuing your time. Life is WAY too short to spend pecking at a keyboard upset when you could be doing something you actually enjoy. I could easily shit on Destiny 2 and Bungie in a mile long post, but I'd rather go on a walk and enjoy nature. Everything that is negative has already been said. Just my #Perspective.

One last note. Several people in this topic (not quoting bc im lazee) have said that the lack of positive content on the forums is directly contributed to the abundance of negativity. To a degree, that is without a doubt true. HOWEVER, Correct me if I am wrong, I feel like there has been a lot less community creativity and creations since shortly after D2 Launched (not just DBO, but the entire community). And that was before all the salt set in. It seems like most of the salt around here has come in the past 2 months or so. Again, correct me if I am wrong.

I don't think there is a technical solution to this, but if everyone could just take some breaths and take a look at what they are posting. Its easy to type it up, hit submit and walk away. But if its been said and is only going to make it worse, just leave it be. It's not going to get changed any faster on here. Bungie isn't going to come out with updates that fast, You should know this by now.

Did any of that make sense? If not please see my first note about being bad about getting my points across clearly. I enjoy playing with you guys from time to time and lurking on the forums ( I don't post much but I do read most of the posts). I want that to continue.

locked

3683 views

People are going to make negative posts or make negative statements in non-Criticism threads. And now that you've made some people feel entitled to a negativity-free DBO they will have problems with that.

I don't know what the correct solution is though. Part of the problem may be the forums and its admins are still tuned for a different era of games: Halo had a few releases and rare updates, so when something was added, changed, or removed, people would get pissed off and leave pretty quickly since the game and what could be expected from it was more static.

Destiny is more like a subscription service. And due to the frequent updates and edits, things are going to piss people off more frequently.

If the goal is to retain the people who avoid this place due to negativity the best option may be to go whole hog and put rules on the books prohibiting criticism. You might be surprised how many of the problematic posters stick around and obey.

locked

3719 views

People are going to make negative posts or make negative statements in non-Criticism threads. And now that you've made some people feel entitled to a negativity-free DBO they will have problems with that.

Well, that's a pretty negative view of humanity in general, and the denizens of this forum in particular. I'm glad I'm not as pessimistic as you are!

locked

3736 views

People are going to make negative posts or make negative statements in non-Criticism threads. And now that you've made some people feel entitled to a negativity-free DBO they will have problems with that.

Well, that's a pretty negative view of humanity in general, and the denizens of this forum in particular. I'm glad I'm not as pessimistic as you are!

I dunno, I see it as inevitable.

Guy 1 (has opted-out of Criticism): "Boy, I sure do love X!"
Guy 2: "Me too! It's way better than Y!"
Guy 1: "Y was great though"
Guy 2: "No it wasn't, it sucked"
(klaxons wail, Guy 2 is given a talking-to)
(Guy 2 shows up in Discord and lends us his power)
(we become stronger)
(TSD rises again)

You know what, on further reflection this seems like a good idea.

locked

3715 views

Excpet Guy 2 is being rude and non-constructive. It is fair to acknowledge that perhaps he should be a little more empathetic toward folks who enjoy things instead of telling them to stop enjoying things I don’t like. While a light distinction in some minds, an important one nonetheless.

locked

3669 views

Well shit, has it gotten that bad?
I checked out some time ago but it wasn't so much the negativity about the game as it was the negativity towards other users and the way it was all so predictable and unchanging. (Speaking openly, some of the unflichingly positive posts and posters also grated on me, but most of the time that was paired with them being negative to people who disagreed which is more annoying.)
To the people flying into a rage or worrying for the future, please don't. If b.org is defined by one thing (besides being stubborn), that thing is a light hand. The initial post and clarifications made it clear no bans or suspensions are being handed out and this is still one cohesive forum.
I don't think anyone (aside from maybe one or two people) would be complaining if this had been the policy from the beginning. It's also worth noting that people can and do already avoid threads that they don't like, so this doesn't create an echo chamber to any significant degree beyond listing thread titles, post titles, and people who posted, which are what people base that avoidance on now. You can whine about people who whine about seeing negative thread titles, and that's valid in a way, but let's remember it's all whining and none of it really matters. What matters is real, meaty, non-whiny conversation.
and frankly everyone talking about a slippery slope can fuck right off for the reasons above, the fact it's a fallacy, and just the fact I disagree with it that strongly

locked

3783 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

locked

3651 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

You're being pretty negative and toxic in your posts, Vagueness, which is exactly what we're trying to (and have been doing a great job of) avoid on this forum. I'll ask that you not do that.

Please remember that it's okay if you disagree with others, but you don't have to resort to personal attacks on the members of the forum that you don't agree with, as that creates a negative environment that drives people away (we're also working to avoid that), and it doesn't lead to any constructive dialogue.

If you have problems or any displeasure that you wish to share, we now have a "Criticism" category just for that!

As it says before every post on the equally-positive Warframe Subreddit:
Remember to be excellent to each other.
<3

locked

3676 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

I'm confused, what part of what I said goes against that?

locked

3601 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

I'm confused, what part of what I said goes against that?

thank you for reminding everyone you're a dick

(here)

I'll direct you to the Cody Miller Memorial School for the Opinion Challenged.

(here)

you can fuck off

(here)

the fuck are you even saying?

(here)

and frankly everyone talking about a slippery slope can fuck right off

(here)

I wish these were all directed at the same person; at least then I could pass this off as "oh, he's just mad at X"

locked

3623 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

I'm confused, what part of what I said goes against that?

thank you for reminding everyone you're a dick

(here)

I'll direct you to the Cody Miller Memorial School for the Opinion Challenged.

(here)

you can fuck off

(here)

the fuck are you even saying?

(here)

and frankly everyone talking about a slippery slope can fuck right off

(here)

I wish these were all directed at the same person; at least then I could pass this off as "oh, he's just mad at X"

that's valid, but he replied to the post where I was saying a lot of other stuff, that's why I was confused
I'm not really speaking differently from how I used to, and if it wasn't for the hard links (term?) in this forum that would confuse people it would've only been one or two posts
I'm not mad at anyone (save for one person for a while earlier for acting superior), I'm just being snarky, I'm sorry if it's coming off as mad
but yes, it does have more impact all put together like that, and yes, I could've been more measured, although I will stand by the points made in every post linked
edit: I noticed most of what you quoted has "fuck" in it, you didn't think I was overstepping lines and getting overly mad just because of the swearing, did you? that's nothing new for me or the forum

oh and so as not to make more posts to clutter things:
Kermit, thank you, your support and opposition are both noted and appreciated
korny, you're like Anakin Skywalker with that last post (I'll leave the interpretation to the reader) and you're now trying to stir up shit further, and I'm done with it

locked

3556 views

remember this forum guideline?

"Be nice, damn it!"

I'm confused, what part of what I said goes against that?

thank you for reminding everyone you're a dick

(here)

I'll direct you to the Cody Miller Memorial School for the Opinion Challenged.

(here)

you can fuck off

(here)

the fuck are you even saying?

(here)

and frankly everyone talking about a slippery slope can fuck right off

(here)

I wish these were all directed at the same person; at least then I could pass this off as "oh, he's just mad at X"

that's valid, but he replied to the post where I was saying a lot of other stuff, that's why I was confused
I'm not really speaking differently from how I used to, and if it wasn't for the hard links (term?) in this forum that would confuse people it would've only been one or two posts

Not sure what this means. This forum (in its default state, anyway) operates very much like HBO's forum does.

edit: I noticed most of what you quoted has "fuck" in it, you didn't think I was overstepping lines and getting overly mad just because of the swearing, did you? that's nothing new for me or the forum

Swearing is not off-limits here; I posted at least twice last week with text that included swearing. It's the directed-at-someone anger that comes with it that's a problem.

oh and so as not to make more posts to clutter things:
Kermit, thank you, your support and opposition are both noted and appreciated

korny, you're like Anakin Skywalker with that last post (I'll leave the interpretation to the reader) and you're now trying to stir up shit further, and I'm done with it

I'm glad you're done with it. I agree with you - his post was pretty calculated at baiting you, and was pretty uncalled-for. Not rising to the bait is healthy, though.

locked

3593 views

Not sure what this means. This forum (in its default state, anyway) operates very much like HBO's forum does.

referring to the link saying @username next to the post title-- it can only point to one post, and I've seen people get confused at quoting multiple posts

I'm glad you're done with it. I agree with you - his post was pretty calculated at baiting you, and was pretty uncalled-for. Not rising to the bait is healthy, though.

well I did reply first, otherwise I'd go off on one (I still got in another dig too, which really isn't necessary for anyone that knows both parties)

locked

3681 views

Is there a way to ignore posts from specific users?

Just wondering.

locked

3293 views

Is there a way to ignore posts from specific users?

Just wondering.

No, the current forum code does not allow it.

locked

3336 views

Back to the forum index

RSS Feed of thread

DBO Forums

The Current Status of the Forums (DBO)