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Falcon Heavy (Off-Topic)

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 13:02 (2242 days ago)

They stuck the landing!

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Just finished watching!!

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 13:05 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

The booster landings... Stuck that like a champ.

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That synchronized landing was rad *GIF*

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 13:16 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

[image]

With Style

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Live feed from Starman

by bluerunner @, Music City, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 14:19 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

I caught this view earlier. Love it.
[image]

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Reminds me of the Corvette in Heavy Metal

by Up North 65 @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:18 (2241 days ago) @ bluerunner

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+1

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 23:00 (2241 days ago) @ Up North 65

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The only bummer

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 17:24 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

The core booster failed to land successfully, but despite that SpaceX has made several huge accomplishments!

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The real bummer

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 18:18 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r
edited by cheapLEY, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 18:45

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.

Whatever, I know he owns both companies and it makes a neat story for him, but it's ultimately a corporate publicity stunt, and I hate it. Bringing capitalism into space exploration will ultimately probably be a good thing, but I still hate corporations and seeing what was once the realm of exploration and science become publicity stunts for a pretty awful company sucks.

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Knowing someone who works at Tesla...

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 18:41 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.

Whatever, I know he owns both companies and it makes a neat story for him, but it's ultimately a corporate publicity stunt, and I hate it. Bringing capitalism into space exploration will ultimately probably be a good thing, and but I still hate corporations and seeing what was once the realm of exploration and science become publicity stunts for a pretty awful company sucks.

+1 from start to finish, 100% agree

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You're the real bummer

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 20:22 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.

You're right. A pallet of concrete blocks would have been way more exciting.

The hell is wrong with you?

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You're the real bummer

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 20:33 (2242 days ago) @ CyberKN

The hell is wrong with you?

I wouldn't go that far, he has a point there.

However, that particular model is a Lotus with a Tesla work up. The very first Tesla model. He didn't send a company's flagship as a marketing stunt. He sent a personal item, his first achievement that isn't as light as a souped-up floppy disk (as a marketing stunt :p).

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Top tier info

by Funkmon @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 09:08 (2242 days ago) @ ZackDark

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You're the real bummer

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 10:13 (2242 days ago) @ CyberKN

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.


You're right. A pallet of concrete blocks would have been way more exciting.

The hell is wrong with you?

In some sense it DOES seem like a waste. They could have put something into orbit that does actual science. It's their money and they can do what they want, but if you're putting something into orbit maybe it should be doing something useful. I get that the launch itself provided useful data, so in that sense I don't really care. But a craft with scientific instruments will do more floating around than a car.

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You're the real bummer

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:03 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

That's true, but it was a test launch of an as-yet unproven (at least in its fully assembled form) system. A real science device of that size would probably have been a bit expensive to risk in a test.

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+1

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 is bad, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:13 (2241 days ago) @ stabbim

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 20:34 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Ragashingo, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 20:52

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.

It will not orbit Mars. It will orbit the sun. If you’re gonna do a rant like this at least get your facts straight.


Whatever, I know he owns both companies and it makes a neat story for him, but it's ultimately a corporate publicity stunt, and I hate it. Bringing capitalism into space exploration will ultimately probably be a good thing, but I still hate corporations and seeing what was once the realm of exploration and science become publicity stunts for a pretty awful company sucks.

You are so wrong on this it hurts. You are so wrong on this it legitimately makes me angry. CyberKN said it best: The hell is wrong with you?

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 20:58 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.


It will not orbit Mars. It will orbit the sun. If you’re gonna do a rant like this at least get your facts straight.

Literally every story I have ever seen has said it's going into Mars orbit. It's not my fault all those stories were wrong, and it's honestly completely irrelevant to the point. Sending a Tesla to space is dumb, only meant to inspire brand loyalty (as if a bunch of idiots don't already have that for Tesla).

Whatever, I know he owns both companies and it makes a neat story for him, but it's ultimately a corporate publicity stunt, and I hate it. Bringing capitalism into space exploration will ultimately probably be a good thing, but I still hate corporations and seeing what was once the realm of exploration and science become publicity stunts for a pretty awful company sucks.


You are so wrong on this it hurts. You are so wrong on this it legitimately makes me angry. CyberKN said it best: The hell is wrong with you?

Your bullshit sanctimonious attitude makes me angry, even though I should be used to it by now. Seriously? You're usually pretty thoughtful, but a single sentence isn't a compelling argument.

I'm sorry, sending a car manufactured by a shitty company into space fucking sucks. Everyone apparently worships Elon Musk, but this is straight up publicity for his shitty car company. I get that the idea is to literally test the payload, but I would honestly rather see it just be a pallet of cinder blocks than his car.

Sorry dudes, I won't celebrate some shitty guy and his company that overworks its employees and fires them for trying to unionize so they don't have working conditions that send literally hundreds of people to the hospital.

Him sending his Tesla into space is a celebration of Tesla, and fuck literally everything about that.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:04 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Sorry dudes, I won't celebrate some shitty guy and his company that overworks its employees and fires them for trying to unionize so they don't have working conditions that send literally hundreds of people to the hospital.

So that’s what this is actually about?! Even if you are 100% accurate on this one issue (and that’s doubtful in the extreme) it in no way justifies your rant about this awesome rocket launch.

This wasn’t a Tesla stunt, this was the result of years of hard word for the people at SpaceX. This was a major accomplishment that could be the jumping off point to a ton more space exploration and science. Remember, the last time a rocket this powerful launched was over 50 years ago! What SpaceX has done over the past few years, making more launches than any other company or nation on the planet and reducing the cost per launch by half or more vs other existing rockets is stunning.

Yes, by all means punish anyone treating workers badly. But to say all the inaccurate, hateful things you said are just plain shitty. You weren’t being a bummer. You were being an asshole.

Your bullshit sanctimonious attitude makes me angry, even though I should be used to it by now.

Your damn right you should be used to me calling people out when they are wrong.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:29 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Sorry dudes, I won't celebrate some shitty guy and his company that overworks its employees and fires them for trying to unionize so they don't have working conditions that send literally hundreds of people to the hospital.


So that’s what this is actually about?! Even if you are 100% accurate on this one issue (and that’s doubtful in the extreme) it in no way justifies your rant about this awesome rocket launch.

Of course that's what this is about. I don't actually give a shit about Elon Musk personally. I don't have some vendetta against him.

There are multiple stories about how poorly factory workers at Tesla are treated. They're not hard to find.

http://www.businessinsider.com/uaw-tesla-complaint-fire-workers-union-2017-10

https://www.thedailybeast.com/workers-say-tesla-is-trying-to-scare-them-out-of-a-union

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-workers-factory-conditions-elon-musk

This wasn’t a Tesla stunt, this was the result of years of hard word for the people at SpaceX. This was a major accomplishment that could be the jumping off point to a ton more space exploration and science. Remember, the last time a rocket this powerful launched was over 50 years ago! What SpaceX has done over the past few years, making more launches than any other company or nation on the planet and reducing the cost per launch by half or more vs other existing rockets is stunning.

That launch itself and what that means is absolutely cool, and we should absolutely celebrate the team that made it happen and their accomplishments. But putting a Tesla on it and then strapping cameras all over that put that Tesla front and center while flying through fucking space makes it a Tesla stunt. I literally can not read it any other way. He could have put anything in it, he chose a Tesla and that's a statement.

Yes, by all means punish anyone treating workers badly. But to say all the inaccurate, hateful things you said are just plain shitty. You weren’t being a bummer. You were being an asshole.

Your bullshit sanctimonious attitude makes me angry, even though I should be used to it by now.


Your damn right you should be used to me calling people out when they are wrong.

These things are called opinions. You should learn that. Saying I'm wrong for not liking corporate bullshit is frankly pretty insulting.

What did I say that was inaccurate, beside the one thing you already pointed out that just about everyone for the past few years was also wrong about?

I think this launch is absolutely incredible. But I don't see how putting a Tesla in it is anything but shilling for his other company, and that company sucks. I won't laugh and smile and celebrate that like everyone else wants to. I can applaud the launch itself and recognize its significance while also lamenting the shitty corporate capitalistic opportunism of using a Tesla as a payload.

This isn't fun, it's putting some corporate bullshit into space and asking everyone else to laugh and play along, and I won't buy into it. If you want to, fine. I won't begrudge it. But I also won't just sit here and basically let you call me an idiot for not agreeing with you.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:41 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I won't buy into it. If you want to, fine. I won't begrudge it.

But you did, though. Everyone else prior to your comment was just trying to appreciate the accomplishment of SpaceX. No one had even mentioned the car. Then you came stomping in with the Tesla part and how you don't want any part of it.

Perhaps your mistake was thinking that just because you read something about other people liking the launch, that was the same as them coming to you directly and asking you to join in liking it? Not that you're not allowed to add to a discussion, of course. But you weren't forced into it, either.

To be clear, I'm not actually mad at you, and I'm a little uncomfortable with how personal the responses got. But you seem to be under the impression that you did not instigate things, and that's not accurate.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:49 (2242 days ago) @ stabbim

I won't buy into it. If you want to, fine. I won't begrudge it.


But you did, though. Everyone else prior to your comment was just trying to appreciate the accomplishment of SpaceX. No one had even mentioned the car. Then you came stomping in with the Tesla part and how you don't want any part of it.

Perhaps your mistake was thinking that just because you read something about other people liking the launch, that was the same as them coming to you directly and asking you to join in liking it? Not that you're not allowed to add to a discussion, of course. But you weren't forced into it, either.

To be clear, I'm not actually mad at you, and I'm a little uncomfortable with how personal the responses got. But you seem to be under the impression that you did not instigate things, and that's not accurate.

Let me make it clear: My intention wasn't to rain on any parades. I think it's actually important to discuss the negative corporate baggage that comes along with this. We can absolutely celebrate this launch and the massive strides into space it means. I think ignoring the fact that Elon Musk used it to shill his car company with a history of overworking its employees in dangerous conditions is pretty naive and honestly probably dangerous. This isn't just me being pissy just for the hell of it, but rather because I think it's actually very important to acknowledge all the awful things this could also bring.

Everyone romanticizes getting into space and colonizing other planets and all the cool sci-fi shit we all dream of. But going to space is dangerous, and celebrating a company run by a man whose other company mistreats its workers and quashes union pushes is at least a little worrying.

Sure, my first post could have been better. I suck at this shit, but I try. At least I don't attack people for having opinions.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:57 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Sure, my first post could have been better. I suck at this shit, but I try. At least I don't attack people for having opinions.

NOBODY. IS. AGAINST. YOUR. OPINIONS.

I dare you to find someone who is for Tesla hurting its workers. Or someone who thinks the path to colonizing space is gonna be squeaky clean with eveyrone’s rights being fully respected. Or someone who believes that launching the Tesla was done with zero publicity consideration.

All ya gotta do, man, is take your time and explain yourself instead of just launching into rant mode in the first post. If you’d done that things would have gone swimmingly.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:10 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Sure, my first post could have been better. I suck at this shit, but I try. At least I don't attack people for having opinions.


NOBODY. IS. AGAINST. YOUR. OPINIONS.

I dare you to find someone who is for Tesla hurting its workers. Or someone who thinks the path to colonizing space is gonna be squeaky clean with eveyrone’s rights being fully respected. Or someone who believes that launching the Tesla was done with zero publicity consideration.

All ya gotta do, man, is take your time and explain yourself instead of just launching into rant mode in the first post. If you’d done that things would have gone swimmingly.

You're not wrong. I'll accept that.

Let me at least attempt to explain. I still don't think my post is anywhere near as negative as you want to read it as, but I realize this is the internet and tone doesn't exist. My post was a (admittedly poor) attempt to broach the subject without actually diving into it, as maybe this isn't the place for it. It's something that very easily could get very political, which is something we avoid here.

It obviously came off as far more negative than I intended, and that's on me.

But don't play innocent. You're exact words were "You are so wrong it hurts. You are so wrong it legitimately makes me angry." Those aren't the words of someone looking for clarity or of someone looking for a discussion. Those are the words of someone looking for a fight. A fight I regrettably gave you.

On the other hand, thank you. I genuinely learned something, and we got there in the end. Now, maybe we can actually have the discussion I could have started in a more graceful way.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:31 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Sure, my first post could have been better. I suck at this shit, but I try. At least I don't attack people for having opinions.


NOBODY. IS. AGAINST. YOUR. OPINIONS.

I dare you to find someone who is for Tesla hurting its workers. Or someone who thinks the path to colonizing space is gonna be squeaky clean with eveyrone’s rights being fully respected. Or someone who believes that launching the Tesla was done with zero publicity consideration.

All ya gotta do, man, is take your time and explain yourself instead of just launching into rant mode in the first post. If you’d done that things would have gone swimmingly.


You're not wrong. I'll accept that.

Let me at least attempt to explain. I still don't think my post is anywhere near as negative as you want to read it as, but I realize this is the internet and tone doesn't exist. My post was a (admittedly poor) attempt to broach the subject without actually diving into it, as maybe this isn't the place for it. It's something that very easily could get very political, which is something we avoid here.

I fully understand your caution. Some subjects, such as unionization, can indeed get heated. And, yep, so of Tesla’s employee treatment troubles were said to be racially motivated. We certainly can’t say race relations isn’t a touchy subject! Because I’m sure we both agree it totally is, all the time, in our supposedly more enlightened world.


It obviously came off as far more negative than I intended, and that's on me.

But don't play innocent. You're exact words were "You are so wrong it hurts. You are so wrong it legitimately makes me angry." Those aren't the words of someone looking for clarity or of someone looking for a discussion. Those are the words of someone looking for a fight. A fight I regrettably gave you.

Yeah, I guess I was too forceful in trying to drive home a point. Because, my big bold text isn’t 100% correct, as you noted. (More on that below, I guess...) I reacted the way I did because spaceflight and space technology and space innovation are one of my favorite subjects. Relating the subject of Tesla to the major accomplishment of SpaceX because of the owner and the car they launched just felt so out of place to me. Doubly so, since we didn’t really get to that discussion until later.

There’s also this funny thing where SpaceX gets crap from smaller government proponents which seems bizzare to me given that they charge significantly less than most every other rocket company to launch a payload. Your initial post where you were talking about corporations and capitalism felt a bit like you were going in that direction, as well.


On the other hand, thank you. I genuinely learned something, and we got there in the end. Now, maybe we can actually have the discussion I could have started in a more graceful way.

Yeah, there’s certainly an interesting discussion to be had there on many fronts. One thing I’d totally bring up is how come it sometimes seems like the people who are the most innovative and revolutionary are also bad at respecting the people under them. Like, Steve Jobs revolutionized the computer and phone and digital music industries... but it is pretty universally accepted that he could be a total jerk. Discussion on how we plan to protect the rights or workers who we send to other worlds could be amazingly interesting as well... you know... given that we don’t always manage to protect them here on our one single world.

I do think there’s something to be said for allowing people to celebrate and for keeping in mind that people don’t like their celebrations interrupted, but yes, I agree, I should have asked for clarification and tried harder to draw out your points. For not doing that, I am sorry.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:47 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

There’s also this funny thing where SpaceX gets crap from smaller government proponents which seems bizzare to me given that they charge significantly less than most every other rocket company to launch a payload. Your initial post where you were talking about corporations and capitalism felt a bit like you were going in that direction, as well.

No, sorry, not at all. I think private enterprises going into space will ultimately be brilliant. They will do it more consistently and efficiently than the government, because they will ultimately be doing it for profit. And that's where me hesitations come in. Space will just turn into the next frontier, the next industry to exploit. That's my problem with corporations and capitalism. When there are winners, there have to be losers, and we live in a system that is inherently exploitative, and I just hate it. Yeah, sure, it's better so far than any alternative that's been tried, but that doesn't mean it's good. I long for the Star Trek future where money doesn't exist and people don't have to worry about whether they can pay for the medicine they need in order to not die. That's much beyond the scope of any discussion we should probably have here, but, as I said, it was directly related to a discussion I was having before I visited and it was on my mind.

On the other hand, thank you. I genuinely learned something, and we got there in the end. Now, maybe we can actually have the discussion I could have started in a more graceful way.


Yeah, there’s certainly an interesting discussion to be had there on many fronts. One thing I’d totally bring up is how come it sometimes seems like the people who are the most innovative and revolutionary are also bad at respecting the people under them. Like, Steve Jobs revolutionized the computer and phone and digital music industries... but it is pretty universally accepted that he could be a total jerk. Discussion on how we plan to protect the rights or workers who we send to other worlds could be amazingly interesting as well... you know... given that we don’t always manage to protect them here on our one single world.

That's the other side of my entire issue. Steve Jobs was undeniably revolutionary and also a total asshole (apparently, obviously I don't know him). Yet folks worship him anyway. Building the iPod and iTunes and the iPhone is seemingly more important to them than any human cost to those things.

I can't fully judge, but I've read some statements from Elon Musk that give me a similar impression. I won't lump him in with Steve Jobs--I don't know enough about him. I looked for a quote I remember (I couldn't find it) about the working conditions allegations. It boiled down to, "Yeah, they work hard and long hours, but I don't ask them to do anything I wouldn't do" or something along those lines. And I just hate that sort of reasoning. Sure, Elon, you go ahead and work yourself to the bone for 16 hour days, but it's absolutely wrong to want your factory workers to do the same (at least to me). You built the company, you inherently care more than anyone else about it, you can't expect your employees to do what you do.

I do think there’s something to be said for allowing people to celebrate and for keeping in mind that people don’t like their celebrations interrupted, but yes, I agree, I should have asked for clarification and tried harder to draw out your points. For not doing that, I am sorry.

Legitimately, this is why I like this place. Sure, things got heated, and maybe a bit more personal than they should have. Sorry for that. But at the end of the day, we can have the discussion or argument or whatever and then move on, with apologies if needed. I genuinely hold no ill will, and I am sorry for getting as worked up as I did and for any insults I threw around. I get fired up much easier than I should. I'm too old for that shit and I know better. It's a poor excuse, but it really has been a rough day.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 08:31 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo


Yeah, there’s certainly an interesting discussion to be had there on many fronts. One thing I’d totally bring up is how come it sometimes seems like the people who are the most innovative and revolutionary are also bad at respecting the people under them. Like, Steve Jobs revolutionized the computer and phone and digital music industries... but it is pretty universally accepted that he could be a total jerk.

I'm not saying this as a defense for the mistreatment or abuse of anyone, but I think it's because agreeableness is not a particularly useful trait in competitive environments. The status quo has a tremendous amount of inertia, and Jobs pushed people to change it, something most people are unwilling to do or even imagine it can be done.

Every villain is the hero of his or her story, and I'm sure in Jobs' mind his bad behavior was less important than the final outcome--the creation of innovative products that improved people's lives.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:44 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

This isn't fun, it's putting some corporate bullshit into space and asking everyone else to laugh and play along, and I won't buy into it. If you want to, fine. I won't begrudge it. But I also won't just sit here and basically let you call me an idiot for not agreeing with you.

I’m not calling you an idiot for disagreeing with me. I’m doing so because of the way you stomped into this thread and took it on yourself to be the bummer. AKA: The asshole. Do you really think anyone else here disagrees with you on the points you’ve finally gotten around to making? We don’t. But to come in specifically to try and ruin people’s excitement at something that was truly awesome... People who do that infuriate me more than just about anyone else.

You could have stated your opinion in a more tactful way and had myself and everyone else who cared to reply agreeing with everything you said. Because I totally agree with you that bad work practices should be punished. And I at least partially agree that Tesla as a car company isn’t all that great. And I even agree that putting that Tesla Roadster in the Falcon Heavy was in part a publicity stunt. We pretty much agree on everything! Except how you decided to state your opinions.

You could have made your point while joining in with our community in celebrating the awesome achievement of hundreds of hard working people. Instead, you decided to post a half-baked rant about capitalism and hating corporations and you decided to call one of the most significant rocket launches in decades nothing but a publicity stunt.

More power to ya if you like driving people away form your legitimate opinions, but please don’t come here and be “that guy” who decides he’s gonna shit on a thread because he can. That’s all I really ask.

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Where’s the Criticism tag when you need it?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:54 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

But to come in specifically to try and ruin people’s excitement at something that was truly awesome... People who do that infuriate me more than just about anyone else.

You must have a pretty negative view, either about me specifically or humanity in general, if you think that was my specific intention.

You're right, my initial post sucked and didn't really articulate a point. I'm sorry. I was already have pissed at some other sort of relevant conversations I was having previously, and I was in a hurry, and my thoughts just sort of flowed naturally from that to this, and I'm just not very good at articulating my thoughts to begin with. That's a piss poor excuse, but it is what it is.

I genuinely think this launch is an amazing accomplishment. I didn't intend to rain on any parades.

Why don't you try asking for clarification occasionally instead of jumping down people's throats first thing?

I gotta ask...

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:00 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

But I don't see how putting a Tesla in it is anything but shilling for his other company, and that company sucks. I won't laugh and smile and celebrate that like everyone else wants to. I can applaud the launch itself and recognize its significance while also lamenting the shitty corporate capitalistic opportunism of using a Tesla as a payload.

Did you read ZackDark's post?

I actually understand your dislike for Tesla; I don't fully agree with it, but I understand it.

But you keep calling the car a 'shill for his other corporate interest', and I don't think it's really that at all. I think it's a personal memento, one that's pretty damn important to him. I don't begrudge him the gesture, because, after all, SpaceX IS the first private entity to accomplish what it accomplished today, and it's a thing that will benefit all of us, in the long run. I'm sorry you can't separate his success here from what he does in another business, but if you actually READ that post and ignored the substance, that seems a little unfair to Musk. (If you just didn't read it, that's a different story - but I'd be curious to know if it changes anything about your opinion once you do.)

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I gotta ask...

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:04 (2242 days ago) @ Claude Errera

But I don't see how putting a Tesla in it is anything but shilling for his other company, and that company sucks. I won't laugh and smile and celebrate that like everyone else wants to. I can applaud the launch itself and recognize its significance while also lamenting the shitty corporate capitalistic opportunism of using a Tesla as a payload.


Did you read ZackDark's post?

I actually understand your dislike for Tesla; I don't fully agree with it, but I understand it.

But you keep calling the car a 'shill for his other corporate interest', and I don't think it's really that at all. I think it's a personal memento, one that's pretty damn important to him. I don't begrudge him the gesture, because, after all, SpaceX IS the first private entity to accomplish what it accomplished today, and it's a thing that will benefit all of us, in the long run. I'm sorry you can't separate his success here from what he does in another business, but if you actually READ that post and ignored the substance, that seems a little unfair to Musk. (If you just didn't read it, that's a different story - but I'd be curious to know if it changes anything about your opinion once you do.)

I can and do understand the personal memento aspect. I'm honestly not sure if or how it changes things--it still reads as a corporate plug for Tesla. Sure, obviously Tesla is near and dear to Musk. I'm not sure that makes it better. And I really mean that--I'm not sure. My post was a gut reaction to a Tesla roadster being sent into space.

He could have put anything in it. Why not a celebration of the team that made it happen? Why not a celebration of humanity going into space once again? Why did it have to be a personal memento? Maybe I'm the one being naive now.

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In his own words...

by slycrel ⌂, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:13 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Instagram photo by Musk himself

... including commentary.

I'm not here to change opinions... just to point out that it only took me 60 seconds to find this on the internet. Surely we can dig even further if we really wanted to know why... right?

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In his own words...

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:28 (2242 days ago) @ slycrel

Instagram photo by Musk himself

... including commentary.

I'm not here to change opinions... just to point out that it only took me 60 seconds to find this on the internet. Surely we can dig even further if we really wanted to know why... right?

I mean, sure, I've seen that. I follow the dude on instagram. What does that statement change?

He sent a Tesla because it's "fun"? I actually completely reject that notion. I don't find that particularly fun at all, even without all the baggage that goes along with it. Sending a Tesla to space, whether his personal out-dated one or a shiny new Model S, is a statement, a statement that is independent of the actual words he says. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

I'm not even saying that it's some nefarious marketing ploy dreamed up by Elon Musk to promote his car company. It really could be nothing more than him sending a personal memento into space, something he thinks is fun and neat. But the fact is, no matter what his intentions were, it ends up being a marketing stunt for Tesla in all actuality. Tesla will always be mentioned when we talk about space flight. The footage of a Tesla roadster flying through space will probably be historic. Kids 50 years from now will see that footage in school.

It's not necessarily an awful thing, but I don't think it's good. I can't really explain very well, I can only say it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Maybe I am too negative and cynical, but it reads like Musk trying to "feel" like a fun guy, sending his personal car into space, never to be seen or driven again. It's marketing 101--make people feel good about your brand. Elon Musk's brand is himself, and that extends to his companies--it feels like him just trying to make people feel good, and using the absolutely stunning and historic launch to also allow his car brand with an at least somewhat dubious history ride the coattails.

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In his own words...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 07:44 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Instagram photo by Musk himself

... including commentary.

I'm not here to change opinions... just to point out that it only took me 60 seconds to find this on the internet. Surely we can dig even further if we really wanted to know why... right?


I mean, sure, I've seen that. I follow the dude on instagram. What does that statement change?

He sent a Tesla because it's "fun"? I actually completely reject that notion. I don't find that particularly fun at all, even without all the baggage that goes along with it. Sending a Tesla to space, whether his personal out-dated one or a shiny new Model S, is a statement, a statement that is independent of the actual words he says. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

I'm not even saying that it's some nefarious marketing ploy dreamed up by Elon Musk to promote his car company. It really could be nothing more than him sending a personal memento into space, something he thinks is fun and neat. But the fact is, no matter what his intentions were, it ends up being a marketing stunt for Tesla in all actuality. Tesla will always be mentioned when we talk about space flight. The footage of a Tesla roadster flying through space will probably be historic. Kids 50 years from now will see that footage in school.

It's not necessarily an awful thing, but I don't think it's good. I can't really explain very well, I can only say it leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Maybe I am too negative and cynical, but it reads like Musk trying to "feel" like a fun guy, sending his personal car into space, never to be seen or driven again. It's marketing 101--make people feel good about your brand. Elon Musk's brand is himself, and that extends to his companies--it feels like him just trying to make people feel good, and using the absolutely stunning and historic launch to also allow his car brand with an at least somewhat dubious history ride the coattails.

I really don't understand your animus, but I want to point something out considering that much what you've said seems directed at Musk personally. Notice how in that instagram comment he never says "I"? Using the car as a weight was cool and inspiring to the many people who made this happen and to countless others besides. It's also symbolic of the beginning of an era where space travel is no longer limited to the domain of government neckties--an era where individuals in all their variety could potentially have access to space. Maybe I'm not cynical enough, but I delighted to be alive simultaneously with Mr. Musk.

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I gotta ask...

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 23:21 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

He could have put anything in it.

Yeah, I'd be willing to bet that their first criteria for the cargo was size, though. They wanted to show off (and test) their heavy launch vehicle, after all. That does narrow things down quite a bit. That doesn't mean there couldn't have been SOME other suitable item, of course. I don't know what that would be. Maybe a giant David Bowie statue.

Why not a celebration of the team that made it happen? Why not a celebration of humanity going into space once again? Why did it have to be a personal memento?

*shrug* I dunno, maybe the car just seemed like such an obvious choice once it came up that the discussion didn't go any further. This seems like a very feasible scenario, given that the group of people choosing it most likely don't share your feelings about Tesla.

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I gotta ask...

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 06:54 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by DiscipleN2k, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 07:35

He could have put anything in it. Why not a celebration of the team that made it happen? Why not a celebration of humanity going into space once again? Why did it have to be a personal memento? Maybe I'm the one being naive now.

I think somewhere in the launch video they mentioned that the part of the payload that the roadster is mounted to also includes both a plaque with thousands of SpaceX employee names etched into it and a copy of Isaac Asimov's "Foundation" series on some 5D optical storage device called an Arch.

-Disciple

Edit: Found it.

Darn. Time shortcut doesn't seem to work here. Payload info at 20m51s.

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The real bummer

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 21:27 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by INSANEdrive, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 21:43

I guess I'll be the bummer.

What SpaceX is doing is really exciting, and ultimately very good.

YEA!

Elon Musk using SpaceX to put a giant Tesla billboard in orbit around Mars in the form of that stupid roadster is a real fucking bummer to me. Sure, let's put some garbage in orbit around Mars, that's a cool thing to do.

I'm sure Mars has seen worse. Just ask it's Magnosphere. Oh, wait. This gripe is cosmically silly.

Whatever, I know he owns both companies and it makes a neat story for him, but it's ultimately a corporate publicity stunt, and I hate it.

Oh geeeeeez. Here we g-...

Bringing capitalism into space exploration will ultimately probably be a good thing, but I still hate corporations and seeing what was once the realm of exploration and science become publicity stunts for a pretty awful company sucks.

I'm just going to drop this here for no reason.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_NASA

Who did you vote for? (RHETORICAL!)

If they refute science in any form, there is your problem. This is why we are here today. Who else was going to do this? Who else could? Space exploration ain't exactly Ma' & Pa's expertise. That leaves either evil rich people (Have you seen Musk's mother!), or evil gov'ment. EVIL!

It's Bitching for the sake of it. You should have kept this to yourself man, unless you're willing or wanting to change it.

[image]

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The real bummer

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 21:43 (2242 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I absolutely want to change it.

Cut the military spending budget in half and give the difference to NASA. That'd be great. Let's go to Mars in the name of humanity rather than in the name of Tesla.

As I said, I think what SpaceX is doing is ultimately great. I recognize that, at the end of the day, corporate interests will get more done for space exploration than the government will. I don't have to like that, though, and I definitely don't have to like Musk shilling his other corporate interests while doing it.


You all can look down on me and laugh and think I'm being silly and getting worked up over a small little detail. Maybe that's true. It still bothers me. It's still some rich asshole sending a billboard for his company into space, and that sucks just on principle. It's not cute or fun. At the end of the day, it's his rocket and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it, but I'm not going to celebrate it.

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The real bummer

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 21:48 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I absolutely want to change it.

Cut the military spending budget in half and give the difference to NASA. That'd be great. Let's go to Mars in the name of humanity rather than in the name of Tesla.

As I said, I think what SpaceX is doing is ultimately great. I recognize that, at the end of the day, corporate interests will get more done for space exploration than the government will. I don't have to like that, though, and I definitely don't have to like Musk shilling his other corporate interests while doing it.


You all can look down on me and laugh and think I'm being silly and getting worked up over a small little detail. Maybe that's true. It still bothers me. It's still some rich asshole sending a billboard for his company into space, and that sucks just on principle. It's not cute or fun. At the end of the day, it's his rocket and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it, but I'm not going to celebrate it.

I ain't looking down on ya. I speak for me, you speak for you. You don't like it, life's not fair so on so on, fine. At end of the day though, you chose to put your words here for discussion. And discuss, for how-ever-humanly-as-we-each-are-to-in-our-ever-particular ways, we shall.

Buckle up. ;D

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The real bummer

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 21:56 (2242 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I'll admit, I'm not very good at articulating my thoughts at the best of times, and this gets me fired up in an oddly specific way, so this entire subthread is probably a shitshow. But that's pretty par for the course around here.

I still love you guys.

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The real bummer

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:10 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I'll admit, I'm not very good at articulating my thoughts at the best of times, and this gets me fired up in an oddly specific way, so this entire subthread is probably a shitshow. But that's pretty par for the course around here.

No. No it is not. Go take a look at every other thread on the front page of the forums. We’ve collectively been doing pretty darn awesome as a community lately... and then you come in here and act like this. Poor show man. Very poor show. And it’s all on you.


I still love you guys.

Then show some respect and restraint when before deciding to dump on a topic!

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The real bummer

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:08 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I absolutely want to change it.

Cut the military spending budget in half and give the difference to NASA. That'd be great. Let's go to Mars in the name of humanity rather than in the name of Tesla.

You are so wrongly caught up on Tesla when it was the least important of the awesome things that happened to day in space flight.


As I said, I think what SpaceX is doing is ultimately great. I recognize that, at the end of the day, corporate interests will get more done for space exploration than the government will. I don't have to like that, though, and I definitely don't have to like Musk shilling his other corporate interests while doing it.

You don’t like getting space exploration done? Ok... that’s an interesting position.


You all can look down on me and laugh and think I'm being silly and getting worked up over a small little detail. Maybe that's true. It still bothers me. It's still some rich asshole sending a billboard for his company into space, and that sucks just on principle. It's not cute or fun. At the end of the day, it's his rocket and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it, but I'm not going to celebrate it.

You don’t have to support something or someone 100%. You can be excited or proud for a major milestone in rocketry and still be against bad labor practices. But doing it in the way you did? It just makes you look like an asshole who is arguing against legitimate accomplishment and progress. If you want to get your points across you’ll want to cut out the extremism and state them clearly without jumping in to shit on something that a good many people were rightly enthusiastic about.

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The real bummer

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:38 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I absolutely want to change it.

Cut the military spending budget in half and give the difference to NASA. That'd be great. Let's go to Mars in the name of humanity rather than in the name of Tesla.


You are so wrongly caught up on Tesla when it was the least important of the awesome things that happened to day in space flight.


As I said, I think what SpaceX is doing is ultimately great. I recognize that, at the end of the day, corporate interests will get more done for space exploration than the government will. I don't have to like that, though, and I definitely don't have to like Musk shilling his other corporate interests while doing it.


You don’t like getting space exploration done? Ok... that’s an interesting position.


You all can look down on me and laugh and think I'm being silly and getting worked up over a small little detail. Maybe that's true. It still bothers me. It's still some rich asshole sending a billboard for his company into space, and that sucks just on principle. It's not cute or fun. At the end of the day, it's his rocket and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it, but I'm not going to celebrate it.


You don’t have to support something or someone 100%. You can be excited or proud for a major milestone in rocketry and still be against bad labor practices. But doing it in the way you did? It just makes you look like an asshole who is arguing against legitimate accomplishment and progress. If you want to get your points across you’ll want to cut out the extremism and state them clearly without jumping in to shit on something that a good many people were rightly enthusiastic about.

My initial post was actually pretty respectful until you and Cyber jumped in and basically told me I was an idiot and I should fuck off. Get off your fucking high horse dude. Does the world look cool from up there in clouds where you apparently live?

It's not only naive, but also borderline irresponsible to not look at the negative side and to only celebrate the actual launch.

Call it hyperbole if you want, but how long is it now before those poorly treated Tesla workers get to go to space to get treated just as poorly while doing even more dangerous work? It's probably not that far off, especially now that capitalism has entered the space race. Don't pretend it won't happen.

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The real bummer

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, February 06, 2018, 22:53 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I absolutely want to change it.

Cut the military spending budget in half and give the difference to NASA. That'd be great. Let's go to Mars in the name of humanity rather than in the name of Tesla.


You are so wrongly caught up on Tesla when it was the least important of the awesome things that happened to day in space flight.


As I said, I think what SpaceX is doing is ultimately great. I recognize that, at the end of the day, corporate interests will get more done for space exploration than the government will. I don't have to like that, though, and I definitely don't have to like Musk shilling his other corporate interests while doing it.


You don’t like getting space exploration done? Ok... that’s an interesting position.


You all can look down on me and laugh and think I'm being silly and getting worked up over a small little detail. Maybe that's true. It still bothers me. It's still some rich asshole sending a billboard for his company into space, and that sucks just on principle. It's not cute or fun. At the end of the day, it's his rocket and he can do whatever the hell he wants with it, but I'm not going to celebrate it.


You don’t have to support something or someone 100%. You can be excited or proud for a major milestone in rocketry and still be against bad labor practices. But doing it in the way you did? It just makes you look like an asshole who is arguing against legitimate accomplishment and progress. If you want to get your points across you’ll want to cut out the extremism and state them clearly without jumping in to shit on something that a good many people were rightly enthusiastic about.


My initial post was actually pretty respectful until you and Cyber jumped in and basically told me I was an idiot and I should fuck off. Get off your fucking high horse dude. Does the world look cool from up there in clouds where you apparently live?

It's not only naive, but also borderline irresponsible to not look at the negative side and to only celebrate the actual launch.

There’s a correct time, place, and way to bring up the negative side. I think your time (now) and place (here at DBO) were more or less ok. I support anyone talking about pretty much anything around here. But, your way stunk. What did you expect when you start talking about hating corporations and captialism without even expressing why your really hate them?! What did you expect for jumping in to be the bummer in a positive thread celebrating something that is legitimately positive? You have got to take some responsibility here. So far, I just see you lashing out at people who didn’t like the way you jumped in intending to ruin people’s day.

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 05:45 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Two of the top posts on Reddit right now, among many others that are just posts of that picture. It’s supposed to be “fun”, Elon Musk says. I see these pictures and I feel gross. Maybe I’m expecting too much of the public at large, maybe I’m being overly critical of something that is supposed to be fun. All I know is that an amazing event is tainted in my mind by the fact that this is an example of what’s being celebrated, rather than what SpaceX actually accomplished.

Maybe it’s just my cynical side, but I wouldn’t be easily convinced that Elon Musk didn’t put his roadster up there for exactly this purpose.

[image]

[image]

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My point:

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 06:58 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Or, maybe you are unfairly looking down on the public at large? Meh. Let me be less vague. I think you absolutely are looking down on people with this kind of attitude. I think most people will perhaps see this on the news or a news site and think the picture of a bright red car positioned in space with the earth in the background is pretty rad. But it's not going to get them to buy a Tesla.

As an event, sure, I'll remember it for a long time, but I'll remember it much like I remember the awesome landing of the Mars Curiosity Rover. Both were amazing technical achievements. Most people though? I had to explain the history of SpaceX, the Falcon 9, and what made the Falcon Heavy so special to multiple people yesterday. Smart people for whom space and rockets are just not something they think about very often. Sure, they noticed the novel scene of a car above the earth, but then they went back to doing whatever they were doing.

I also question what is so bad about publicity in the first place. And what is so bad about proving a point in a fun way? Good on ya for recognizing that there is some amount of advertising and unnecessary showmanship in placing cameras all over the Tesla. It sounds like you'll make an informed decision about your next car purchase. But... come on man, it's ok to enjoy the moment!

It's probably not reasonable or ok for me to tell you that you shouldn't use this as a jumping off point for talking about mistreatment of workers or the evils of capitalism or whatever... but I do think.... I don't know, that you're targeting the wrong people or that you are getting worked up over something you shouldn't or something like that. I don't have time to really go into it all, but I think I can sum it up as something like this:

Yes, we must keep an eye on the powerful because power does corrupt, but, at the same time, live is not worth living if we let ourselves be dragged down so much that we can't see the fun in stunts like this.

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 09:43 (2242 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Yes, we must keep an eye on the powerful because power does corrupt, but, at the same time, live is not worth living if we let ourselves be dragged down so much that we can't see the fun in stunts like this.

I guess that’s the heart of the issue. I cannot see it as a fun stunt. Whatever the intention, and I have no doubt that it’s strictky nefarious, I read it as an attempt to garner positive attention and an attempt to be seen as fun, while pushing the ethical issues of the actual company under the table.

It’s like the Wendy’s twitter account (and every other company) being snarky and funny on twitter to make people feel good about Wendy’s rather than considering the actual company policy about worker treatment. It’s just marketing. And yes, I know, calling it just marketing is vastly underselling the actual accomplishment here, and I don’t mean to do that. This is a separate issue from the actual accomplishment, but the nature of it means they can’t actually fully be separated. Rather than focusing on that accomplishment he (or they, as Kermit rightly pointed out) chose to put a car in it. If anyone wants to read that as inspirational, they can be my guest, but I certainly cannot view it that way.

Let me be clear: I realize this is all hypocritical. There literally is no ethical consumption in our society. Every product I’ve ever bought is made by a company that undoubtedly has exploited workers and bad policies somewhere. It’s just the society we live in. I can’t just look at and appreciate the fun stunt while ignoring the realities of the companies involved. That’s what those companies want you to do, that’s why stuff like this happens. Just like Dodge using a MLK speech to sell trucks, in a misguided attempt to connect his legacy to their brand. I don’t think putting a Tesla in a rocket and sending to space is on that level of ridiculousness, but it’s approaching my actual problem with this stunt, as I’ll call it.

I fear that I actually am not making myself clear. I don’t know exactly how to articulate my feelings here, and there are a lot of separate (although connected) issues at play, which makes it even more difficult to do so.

I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.

Again, contrary to what this thread would make it seem, I don’t fault anyone for being excited about this with no caveat. It’s exciting! I just can’t ignore the other side of it in the name of having fun.

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My point:

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 09:54 (2242 days ago) @ cheapLEY


Let me be clear: I realize this is all hypocritical. There literally is no ethical consumption in our society. Every product I’ve ever bought is made by a company that undoubtedly has exploited workers and bad policies somewhere.

Whoa! I mean, I totally agree that it's a fallen world and there are bad capitalists, socialists, marxists et al. in every corner of the globe, but that's a helluva statement, cheapLEY.


I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.

Or do we? I'm sure you're aware of the decline in the number of viewers watching the shuttle launches as the years went by.

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 10:15 (2242 days ago) @ Kermit


Let me be clear: I realize this is all hypocritical. There literally is no ethical consumption in our society. Every product I’ve ever bought is made by a company that undoubtedly has exploited workers and bad policies somewhere.


Whoa! I mean, I totally agree that it's a fallen world and there are bad capitalists, socialists, marxists et al. in every corner of the globe, but that's a helluva statement, cheapLEY.

And maybe slightly hyperbolic, but I don’t think so. I’m not some staunch anti-capitalist. It’s a better system than any that’s been tried so far that I know of. But I genuinely believe that capitalism, at its heart, relies on inequality. Or at least the current actual form of capitalism we utilize. For some to be rich, some others must be poor. Our economy is based on growth and only growth, and I don’t think that’s sustainable.

I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.


Or do we? I'm sure you're aware of the decline in the number of viewers watching the shuttle launches as the years went by.

Now there’s the real bummer. Maybe that’s my real problem. If being in space needs a car floating around in to be inspiring and exciting, than I actually do lament for humanity. Maybe that’s too judgmental, I don’t know.

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My point:

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 12:01 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY


Let me be clear: I realize this is all hypocritical. There literally is no ethical consumption in our society. Every product I’ve ever bought is made by a company that undoubtedly has exploited workers and bad policies somewhere.


Whoa! I mean, I totally agree that it's a fallen world and there are bad capitalists, socialists, marxists et al. in every corner of the globe, but that's a helluva statement, cheapLEY.


And maybe slightly hyperbolic, but I don’t think so. I’m not some staunch anti-capitalist. It’s a better system than any that’s been tried so far that I know of. But I genuinely believe that capitalism, at its heart, relies on inequality. Or at least the current actual form of capitalism we utilize. For some to be rich, some others must be poor. Our economy is based on growth and only growth, and I don’t think that’s sustainable.

I'm not sure I agree that there have to be winners and losers, but I agree with your sentiment. We participate in systems where the impact upon others is completely hidden from us. As a tax-paying person in the US, other people decide to use that money in ways I completely disagree with. That can be good and bad, but it's something I cannot escape if I want to have a house and support my family. When I am not in relationship with the people who make the food I eat, the abstract nature of the market transaction allows a system to put pressures on that transaction to minimize costs and maximize profits. Systems of people allow us to do all kinds of things to others that we would not normally do if we saw the impact.

So... I get it.

I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.

I don't have a visceral negative reaction to seeing a Tesla orbiting. I recognize it as a gimmick, but I think its a pretty harmless one because it does represent the work of a lot of people in his company. Imagine being one of the designers on that car and now being able to say that your work is in orbit. That's pretty cool. At the same time, you're right. This does hide, or it fails to address, the actual cost of building that car which includes the mistreatment of a lot of people. It's complicated, because our stories are all intertwined with good intentions, mistakes, achievements and different participants that give each telling of that story a different hue. The more we can stomach seeing and accounting for all those shades the better. At the same time, joy is fleeting, and sometimes it's good to celebrate something flawed. It may just provide inspiration to the next innovator and genius to come along and imagine the world with a new horizon of possibilities.

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My point:

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 12:55 (2241 days ago) @ Robot Chickens


Let me be clear: I realize this is all hypocritical. There literally is no ethical consumption in our society. Every product I’ve ever bought is made by a company that undoubtedly has exploited workers and bad policies somewhere.


Whoa! I mean, I totally agree that it's a fallen world and there are bad capitalists, socialists, marxists et al. in every corner of the globe, but that's a helluva statement, cheapLEY.


And maybe slightly hyperbolic, but I don’t think so. I’m not some staunch anti-capitalist. It’s a better system than any that’s been tried so far that I know of. But I genuinely believe that capitalism, at its heart, relies on inequality. Or at least the current actual form of capitalism we utilize. For some to be rich, some others must be poor. Our economy is based on growth and only growth, and I don’t think that’s sustainable.


I'm not sure I agree that there have to be winners and losers, but I agree with your sentiment. We participate in systems where the impact upon others is completely hidden from us. As a tax-paying person in the US, other people decide to use that money in ways I completely disagree with. That can be good and bad, but it's something I cannot escape if I want to have a house and support my family. When I am not in relationship with the people who make the food I eat, the abstract nature of the market transaction allows a system to put pressures on that transaction to minimize costs and maximize profits. Systems of people allow us to do all kinds of things to others that we would not normally do if we saw the impact.

So... I get it.

I don't believe in the myth of the finite pie, which is what underlies the "there must be poor for there to be rich" argument.

I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.


I don't have a visceral negative reaction to seeing a Tesla orbiting. I recognize it as a gimmick, but I think its a pretty harmless one because it does represent the work of a lot of people in his company. Imagine being one of the designers on that car and now being able to say that your work is in orbit. That's pretty cool. At the same time, you're right. This does hide, or it fails to address, the actual cost of building that car which includes the mistreatment of a lot of people. It's complicated, because our stories are all intertwined with good intentions, mistakes, achievements and different participants that give each telling of that story a different hue. The more we can stomach seeing and accounting for all those shades the better. At the same time, joy is fleeting, and sometimes it's good to celebrate something flawed. It may just provide inspiration to the next innovator and genius to come along and imagine the world with a new horizon of possibilities.

Your last sentence reminds me of a thought I had when I first saw the shots of the car. You probably could not come up with anything a ten-year-old would think is any cooler than that. And that ten year old will probably be the first person on Mars.

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My point:

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 13:09 (2241 days ago) @ Kermit

Your last sentence reminds me of a thought I had when I first saw the shots of the car. You probably could not come up with anything a ten-year-old would think is any cooler than that. And that ten year old will probably be the first person on Mars.

This is completely true.

I was able to see the launch of the Atlantis back when I was pretty young. Of course, I dropped the camera, and since it was film, when it opened all the pictures were lost. Ever since I've been a space nut.

But more importantly, it will likely be an all female crew sent to Mars. Women do not require the caloric intake a man does (less muscle mass), so fewer supplies are needed. Women also don't seem to experience the degeneration of vision men do in space. Nobody knows why yet.

So we need to get 10 year old girls excited about this stuff.

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My point:

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:08 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Women also don't seem to experience the degeneration of vision men do in space. Nobody knows why yet.

Really? I hadn't heard about that. Super weird. Although I guess it's not the first time I've heard of differences in vision. Aren't men supposed to have a much higher rate of colorblindness?

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My point:

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:16 (2241 days ago) @ stabbim

Women also don't seem to experience the degeneration of vision men do in space. Nobody knows why yet.


Really? I hadn't heard about that. Super weird. Although I guess it's not the first time I've heard of differences in vision. Aren't men supposed to have a much higher rate of colorblindness?

Yes.

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 14:08 (2241 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by cheapLEY, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 14:16

I don't believe in the myth of the finite pie, which is what underlies the "there must be poor for there to be rich" argument.

That’s definitely a conversation worth having. I won’t pretend like I understand everything about capitalism and our economy. I won’t sit here and tell you I’m right and you’re wrong. I do believe, however, that our system rewards chasing profits at basically any cost, and the human element gets lost, exploited, abused in the quest for those profits.

Your last sentence reminds me of a thought I had when I first saw the shots of the car. You probably could not come up with anything a ten-year-old would think is any cooler than that. And that ten year old will probably be the first person on Mars.

I can completely see that, and even celebrate it. If that’s what it takes to inspire the next generation, then so be it. I still lament space and science of space becoming the playspace of Brands™. I understand that ultimately it will be a good thing. We’ll probably progress by leaps and bounds once multiple companies really get there. I just feel like we need to recognize the human cost that could lead to. Some companies only treat their workers as good as they have to and only because they have to, adding spaceflight to that equation in the not too distant future genuinely scares me.

But now I’m just repeating myself, I suppose.

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My point:

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 14:15 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I can completely see that, and even celebrate it. If that’s what it takes to inspire the next generation, then so be it. I still lament space and science of space becoming the playspace of Brands™.

Turned out fine for Weyland-Yutani :-p

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 16:21 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Honestly that’s exactly my fear. Sure, that’s beyond our life time, but it’s worth worrying about.

This is all so beyond the scope of putting a Tesla in a rocket ship, I realize. I am just cynical enough to think that with our current climate and corporate culture and political leadership passing legislation that explicitly values corporate profits over any sort of actual human compassion and benefit, I feel like we’re exactly at the inflection point that could lead us to the dark future of Alien instead of the hopeful one of Star Trek. And I do not think it’s hyperbolic to say so.

People can enjoy the fun of putting a convertible in space, and I really am okay with anyone doing so, but I think it’s a mistake to not have the conversation we have been having about it (and obviously not us specifically, but us, society at large)—every time we don’t have that conversation and just take it at face value, it’s one tiny little step towards that dark future rather than the hopeful one.

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My point:

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 16:45 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Honestly that’s exactly my fear. Sure, that’s beyond our life time, but it’s worth worrying about.

This is all so beyond the scope of putting a Tesla in a rocket ship, I realize. I am just cynical enough to think that with our current climate and corporate culture and political leadership passing legislation that explicitly values corporate profits over any sort of actual human compassion and benefit, I feel like we’re exactly at the inflection point that could lead us to the dark future of Alien instead of the hopeful one of Star Trek. And I do not think it’s hyperbolic to say so.

Currently we have treaties that make it so no nation (or corporation) can own anything in space. Worry once those go away. For now we are fine.

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My point:

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 17:45 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Honestly that’s exactly my fear. Sure, that’s beyond our life time, but it’s worth worrying about.

This is all so beyond the scope of putting a Tesla in a rocket ship, I realize. I am just cynical enough to think that with our current climate and corporate culture and political leadership passing legislation that explicitly values corporate profits over any sort of actual human compassion and benefit, I feel like we’re exactly at the inflection point that could lead us to the dark future of Alien instead of the hopeful one of Star Trek. And I do not think it’s hyperbolic to say so.


Currently we have treaties that make it so no nation (or corporation) can own anything in space. Worry once those go away. For now we are fine.

When they go away it’ll be too late to worry.

Those treaties were written when it was ludicrously difficult to get to space so there wasn’t anything actually worth owning. You’re not wrong, but as soon as there’s money to be made, things could change quickly.

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+1

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 12:59 (2241 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

- No text -

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Alternative perspective

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 14:28 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don’t hate SpaceX. Contrary to what it may seem from this thread, I don’t hate Elon Musk. I just find it impossible to separate the awesome accomplishment of this launch with the gross feeling I get in my gut when I see that fucking picture of the Tesla in front of Earth. It makes Tesla the focus, and it doesn’t need to be there, and it bugs me that it is there, and it bugs me even more that someone can see it and think “Cool, a car in space!” rather than “But why?” Being in space on its own is worthy of attention, we don’t need to put a Tesla there to make it inspiring.

Again, contrary to what this thread would make it seem, I don’t fault anyone for being excited about this with no caveat. It’s exciting! I just can’t ignore the other side of it in the name of having fun.

Here's an alternative perspective for you. Elon Musk has said that his goal is to get humans living on Mars. The cost of doing so is astronomical (yes, I did just go there). Elon Musk has put a ton of his personal money, time, and reputation on the line to get both Tesla and SpaceX to a place where they should make enough money for him to fund such an expedition (eventually). So if you want to view it in the perspective that Elon is doing this for advertising, then you should view it as advertising that will help Tesla make money, which in turn helps Elon earn his bonuses which he can then turn around and use to further the colonization of Mars.

Personally I think it's just Elon having some fun. I mean that's why he used S3XY for the Tesla car names and BFR for the Big Falcon Rocket concept. Also, they did put some scientific equipment on board with the car (cameras) and sent it on a trajectory that hasn't been seen before (though I don't know if the cameras will work at long range or not).

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Alternative perspective

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:29 (2241 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

The cameras are already dead from my understanding. Granted I saw that in a single article, saying they were running off the car battery and would last about 12 hours. That could totally be wrong, it was info from an article I skimmed.

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Alternative perspective

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 15:43 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Looks like it. Bummer, but not unexpected.

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Alternative perspective

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 16:02 (2241 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The cameras are already dead from my understanding. Granted I saw that in a single article, saying they were running off the car battery and would last about 12 hours. That could totally be wrong, it was info from an article I skimmed.

That's lame. He should have attached some of the solar panel roof tiles he's been pushing to the car. :-)

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The real bummer...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 06:48 (2242 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

...is if we don't find an Easter egg on Mars in a future Destiny game. Something like a taillight sticking out of a sand dune.

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The real bummer...

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 06:59 (2242 days ago) @ bluerunner

Mass Effect: Andromeda had a Falcon 9 or Heavy (I forget which) as an item you could place in your quarters. :)

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Best Vehicle Launch since Warthog Jump

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 11:18 (2241 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

- No text -

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+1

by bluerunner @, Music City, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 11:21 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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+1

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, February 07, 2018, 12:23 (2241 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

David Brin sez...

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 09:55 (2241 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

This is an opportunity to write science fiction. ;)

He's having a quick-short story contest for "the best very short Sci Fi story about how aliens or future folk might find and misinterpret Elon's Starman Tesla" - if you're feeling cynical, maybe write about it and win something! :)

https://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2018/02/what-happens-to-starman-and-red.html

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David Brin sez...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 10:52 (2241 days ago) @ Claude Errera

This last shot from the live feed looks like it belongs on the cover of a sci-fi novel.

[image]

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I understand the physics behind it but...

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 11:55 (2240 days ago) @ bluerunner

...it's always a little unnerving that you can't see any stars in shots like this.

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David Brin sez...

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Thursday, February 08, 2018, 12:28 (2240 days ago) @ Claude Errera

This is an opportunity to write science fiction. ;)

He's having a quick-short story contest for "the best very short Sci Fi story about how aliens or future folk might find and misinterpret Elon's Starman Tesla" - if you're feeling cynical, maybe write about it and win something! :)

https://davidbrin.blogspot.com/2018/02/what-happens-to-starman-and-red.html

Due to third burn lasting too long, Starmans orbit sends him into the asteroid belt, colliding with an asteroid changing its orbit. Asteroid collides with Earth decades later knocking it into the sun. Thanks a lot, Elon!

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David Brin sez...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 13:10 (2240 days ago) @ ManKitten

In the late 2200's a deep space monitoring station detects an alien force hidden in a massive cloud of energy, moving through space towards Earth. A ship is sent to intercept it. When they make contact, a robot in a primitive spacesuit is beamed onboard the ship. They learn that the alien vessel, T'sla, is a living machine. At the center of the ship is a 20th century car that had been discovered drifting in space by an alien race of living machines.

The crew then learns that the car was sent back to determine the meaning behind the lyrics to David Bowie's "Life on Mars". The crew also realizes that T'sla lacks the ability to give itself a focus other than its original mission of having 1 million likes on YouTube. It finds its existence empty and without purpose. Before they give its live stream the final like, it reveals that it wants to be reunited with its creator, the almighty Musk. The crew brings T'sla to Mars where it merges with the powerful A.I., Musk 1000. The end.

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David Brin sez...

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Thursday, February 08, 2018, 13:37 (2240 days ago) @ bluerunner

This always makes me laugh.

[image]

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