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THAB 2/8 (Destiny)

by bluerunner @, Music City, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 16:03 (2267 days ago)

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46627

- Strike scoring and removal of time limit fail on nightfall.

- Big changes to prestige raids. Fixed weapon types and modifiers.

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Nightfalls (and some somewhat relevant Strikes discussion)

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 16:26 (2267 days ago) @ bluerunner
edited by cheapLEY, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 16:31

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/46627

- Strike scoring and removal of time limit fail on nightfall.

All the other changes sound good, but this is a bummer. I loved the timer and all the different mechanics to increase it. Made Nightfalls fun and challenging without resorting to bullet sponge enemies that players just hide from and slowly pick away at. It does sound like speed is a variable they're measuring in the new scoring system, so this could end up being a better system in the end. I'm eager to find out!


I've been meaning to make a post about Strikes, but my thoughts aren't fully collected, so I'll just throw up the short version here for the sake of discussion:

I've been playing a lot of Monster Hunter. The quests are all just "Hunt X Monster." They're limited to 50 minutes (typically, sometimes it's different), and you get three lives. The fights are often multistage things, in that, when you deal enough damage, the monster runs away from you so you must chase it down. There are mechanics that allow you keep it around longer, and good players can do enough damage fast enough to just kill it before it runs.

It made me think about Destiny strikes, and, more specifically, the boss fights. Most Destiny strikes are just missions with a bunch of fodder enemies that then lead you to a big boss fight. The one exception I can think of is Taniks, whom you encounter pretty early in the mission and then sort of chase through the rest of the strike. We get a very tiny taste of that in the Arms Dealer strike in D2, but it's literally only for the one room before the elevator. The difference is in that Taniks strike, it's just a damage threshold, and then he runs, but once that threshold is reached he becomes immune to any further damage.

How difficult would it be to design a strike like The Shadow Thief, but without that immunity once the threshold is reached? Some additional mechanics that require some skill and coordination to accomplish that prevents him from running and lets you continue to damage and possibly even kill him? Is that compelling, or do we end up with a situation where killing him early becomes the goal, and having to actually play out the rest of the strike because you didn't accomplish it is considered a failure?

I would say look to public events, and the ability to turn them in heroic versions, but those are so short that I don't think it's a good judge for doing something similar with strikes. No one is likely to just quick a public event that only takes four minutes just because they failed to make it a heroic. I can see folks abandoning a long strike because they missed the trigger for making it heroic (or failed to kill Taniks in my Shadow Thief example). I guess you could design it in such a way that it's not a single trigger for a heroic, but rather a series of triggers throughout the mission, or just a single trigger late in the strike to make it feel worth it to just stick around rather than quitting, but that sort of gets away from the "chasing the boss through the level, maybe kill him early" thing that I was considering when I first started thinking about it.

I think strikes are some of the best content Destiny has to offer, I'm just trying to think of ways to make them more fun, challenging, and repeatable.

EDIT: I also just wanted to say this is an absolutely killer THAB. This is what communication looks like, and I'm glad to see Bungie continuing that trend. I'll still be playing Monster Hunter for a bit, but stuff like this is really making me eager to jump back into D2.

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Somewhat relevant Strikes discussion

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 20:05 (2267 days ago) @ cheapLEY

So, I find this all as interesting suggestions. Though I do think that with the root Strike experience (and your tentative expectation of how the community would handle it) anything that cuts it short is likely not the way to go.

I am interested in seeing more discussion regarding "heroic triggers" in Strikes. What if perhaps there are certain encounters that if you trigger you get a chest with some loot mid-Strike instead of just at the end? Mix that with periodic encounters with bosses through the Strikes (Omnigul also shows up a few times during her Strike) as being a more common thing - but don't have them get all their health back at the end - could lead to some very interesting strategies. You could even include triggers which make the end fight be different if they're under a certain health level.

Those were just some thoughts I had after reading your post. I do think it would be neat to see more things incorporated into Strikes to add layers to them, though I hold substantial fears about how the community at large would handle them.

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Somewhat relevant Strikes discussion

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 20:40 (2267 days ago) @ Harmanimus

So, I find this all as interesting suggestions. Though I do think that with the root Strike experience (and your tentative expectation of how the community would handle it) anything that cuts it short is likely not the way to go.

I am interested in seeing more discussion regarding "heroic triggers" in Strikes. What if perhaps there are certain encounters that if you trigger you get a chest with some loot mid-Strike instead of just at the end? Mix that with periodic encounters with bosses through the Strikes (Omnigul also shows up a few times during her Strike) as being a more common thing - but don't have them get all their health back at the end - could lead to some very interesting strategies. You could even include triggers which make the end fight be different if they're under a certain health level.

I forgot about Omnigul. That bolded section would be neat. I guess that's sort of my issue with the way the Taniks fight plays out. With his damage threshold and immunity, it just doesn't really feel like you're accomplishing anything, other than making the strike progress to the next stage. I think you're right in that preemptively killing a boss wouldn't be the right way to handle it, but causing enough damage to trigger a different version of the final fight (maybe a harder one--if you can deal enough damage before the final fight, you get the heroic version, or just a more difficult variant).

I like you're idea of mid strike chests, too.

Those were just some thoughts I had after reading your post. I do think it would be neat to see more things incorporated into Strikes to add layers to them, though I hold substantial fears about how the community at large would handle them.

It would definitely take a lot of fine tuning. Any time you add additional "extra" rewards to an activity, a subset of players will consider that the baseline expectation, and anything under that will be not worth it. It's a difficult line to walk, I think.

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I think Star Fox 64 did it right

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, February 09, 2018, 05:16 (2266 days ago) @ cheapLEY

:p

There were some triggers in most levels that, if you managed to hit all, caused the on-rails level to go somewhere else and most likely fight an entirely different boss (or even skip it).

I think that could be useful in Strikes. Hell, it even was in place already with the Black Spindle mission. Imagine if you will, a Strike that offer you an entirely different boss or boss encounter if you manage to trigger a few key events throughout it. Or a Strike that ends in a The Maw-like Sparrow segment if you kill the boss in one of the chase scenes (as opposed to the final boss fight). I for one, would very much like it.

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I think Star Fox 64 did it right

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, February 09, 2018, 06:24 (2266 days ago) @ ZackDark

Or a Strike that ends in a The Maw-like Sparrow segment if you kill the boss in one of the chase scenes (as opposed to the final boss fight).

YES

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I think Star Fox 64 did it right

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, February 09, 2018, 06:27 (2266 days ago) @ stabbim

Or a Strike that ends in a The Maw-like Sparrow segment if you kill the boss in one of the chase scenes (as opposed to the final boss fight).


YES

I've been wanting this as a part of a raid. Something like the final part of the gauntlet on sparrows.

Nightfalls (and some somewhat relevant Strikes discussion)

by marmot 1333 @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 20:25 (2267 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- Strike scoring and removal of time limit fail on nightfall.


All the other changes sound good, but this is a bummer. I loved the timer

I think hitting the time limit while already fighting a nightfall boss is possibly the most unfun thing that can happen in this game. I am glad it is going away.

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THAB 2/8

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 18:44 (2267 days ago) @ bluerunner

Players will be able to see their (and your) scores on new Nightfall Emblems available as drops in each Nightfall strike. These emblems (and others like them) are now the source of auras, which are automatically enabled if your personal score is above a global threshold.

Not too thrilled with this idea. Why does it need to be connected with the equip? What happened to the slot? I like the emblems I use, so in the event I want to add the exstra flare, if I don't like the eblem too it'll be for not, which is a bummer. I like shiny things. MMmmmmmmmm. Shiiiiiny.

Other than that, everything sounds right cool.

Also the "Honorable Mention: Happy Crimson Days". How was that made? It looks like it would be a ton of fun.

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THAB 2/8

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 19:08 (2267 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Players will be able to see their (and your) scores on new Nightfall Emblems available as drops in each Nightfall strike. These emblems (and others like them) are now the source of auras, which are automatically enabled if your personal score is above a global threshold.


Not too thrilled with this idea. Why does it need to be connected with the equip? What happened to the slot? I like the emblems I use, so in the event I want to add the exstra flare, if I don't like the eblem too it'll be for not, which is a bummer. I like shiny things. MMmmmmmmmm. Shiiiiiny.

I guess maybe you read that differently than I did, but now that I've reread it, you may be right.

I guess I just assumed if you met the score threshold for the aura, you'd get it. But they do say the emblem themselves (in conjunction with the score threshold) is the actual source of the aura. I guess they don't say it needs to be equipped, but I don't know.

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Image related.

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 20:00 (2267 days ago) @ cheapLEY

[image]

The Aura slot is gone in that build. I am a little sad that it's being affixed to an Emblem, myself. I am particular to my existing selections.

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Image related.

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, February 08, 2018, 20:42 (2267 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Heh, and the big purple icon with "Applies a purple crown aura" on the emblem description. I just didn't pay attention, as usual.

I'm not super concerned, but that is a little disappointing. Seems like an odd decision.

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THAB 2/8

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, February 09, 2018, 09:51 (2266 days ago) @ bluerunner

I like that they're intentionally trying to encourage players to engage enemies more in nightfalls. I really hate just running past everything. Not just randos doing it in playlists - even on nightfalls, some groups want to just sprint. My first time ever doing The Pyramidion was a nightfall run (I hadn't done very many strikes early on, can't remember why), and that kind of ruined the experience for me because we just drove our sparrows through the initial descent.

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