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Who Is Destiny Being Made For? (Criticism)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 16:54 (292 days ago)

A section in this week’s THAB has me concerned with the direction Destiny is going in. Here’s what Bungie said:

Normally changing enemy Power levels requires a patch, but during development, we created unique server flags which can flip between two sets of Power levels for all Escalation Protocol enemies. These were created in the wake of the community summit, when we decided to make the activity even more difficult

If you’ll remember, Bungie invited a fair number of high end Destiny players to its offices to show off new things and get feedback on the direction the game was going. And, when Bungie first talked about Escalation Protocol they mentioned that they made it harder based on this group’s feedback but they didn’t say exactly what that meant. Well, now we know. What it meant was Bungie cranked up the later levels of EP from difficult to nearly impossible.

So, what’s the problem here? Well frankly, once again I’m feeling like the game challenges and difficulties are being over-tuned towards the ultra elite Destiny players who have time to attend multi-day community summits. To me, setting the final EP enemies at 400 always sounded like complete overkill. Especially as we got to play Warmind and found how long the road to leveling up was going to be. I feel like I’m being left out if not excluded from cool parts of Destiny 2 based on not being able to play all day long.

Another example of this is the quick release of the newest Raid Lair of that Raid Lair. By releasing the Spire of Stars within Warmind’s first week, Bugine all but ensured that the only players who could even reach its recommended power level were those players who could afford to power level all day long throughout the week. For the rest of us, even us enthusiastic players who put in several hours of play each night? We were nowhere near ready to raid by the time it went live. Once again, I feel like the game and its release schedule was over tuned to favor those players who were able to treat Destiny more as a job than as a form of entertainment.

From what I understand, the community summit was by and large a good thing. I read a lot of the reports that came out of it and agreed with many of the suggestions various attendees said they made. I was especially happy to hear that one group got Bungie to gather the Destiny story team for a previously unscheduled discussion. And that his team brought up a bunch of excellent points about some areas of Destiny’s story and execution. I’ve also really enjoyed leveling up over the past few weeks and being able to make more and more of a contribution to the lower levels of Escalation Protocol. It’s a pretty neat feeling how at Warmind’s launch a whole bunch of us in fire teams could barely beat level 1 and now I can join a couple of matchmade players and we beat the 1st level way more than half the time. That’s pretty cool!

But at the end of the day, things like Escalation Protocol being made significantly harder, or the Raid Lair being released so quickly that the vast majority of players had no real chance of beating it makes me worry that Destiny is being tuned in such a way that puts its gameplay and leveling systems at odds with the amount of time must of us can reasonably dump into it. It sometimes feels to me that Destiny is too often being tuned to please those who can play it for 10 or 12 hours a day at the expense of us who, at best, can only put in 2 to 4.

I think the solution here would be to use Power Level in such a way that virtually all content was comfortably beatable by players who have completed the campaign. That means everything up to and including a new Raid/Raid Lair would not clock above the 340 soft cap this time around. There can always be challenge modes and prestige modes at significantly higher Power Levels, but let the rest of us enjoy all the content too! (Currently Strikes do this pretty well. Almost any player who has stayed current can play the normal versions of the Strikes, while those looking for a tougher challenge can level up to 350 and beyond to tackle the Heroic and Nightfall versions of those Strikes.)

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 17:16 (292 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I am glad you agree with me.

Even since Dark Below, I think the idea of over leveled enemies has never been that great. I think everyone here was in agreement that Crota Hard at 33 and PoE at 35 wasn't a 'good' type of difficult. It was 'fake' difficulty.

I guess I am in the middle of the road here. I definitely want some challenging stuff that I work towards getting good enough to master. But I don't like it being locked behind a gated progression system.

The real problem with Warmind is the progression system. After doing all my milestones and running both raids, I gained a grand total of TWO light this week. Either I am unlucky, or the system is broken.

369 is close enough to 370 I guess. We need one more blind raider for Tuesday!

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 17:25 (292 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The real problem with Warmind is the progression system. After doing all my milestones and running both raids, I gained a grand total of TWO light this week. Either I am unlucky, or the system is broken.

I went up by 5 or 6 last night alone.

I still think the entire Power Level system adds nothing of value to the game. Just ditch it in favor of Halo's Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary modes (or whatever Destiny terminology you want to use to replace those). Nothing would change from a gameplay perspective, other than players not having to worry about their power level or being locked out of progressing for days at a time until the weekly reset. Drops would be only about the gear you want.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 17:32 (292 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The only place that would hurt is the neat way that Escalation Protocol has gotten easier over time, It may not make a ton of sense from an in universe perspective, but taking part in 5+ Guardians being unable to down the level 1 Ogre boss on launch day to myself and a couple of randoms being able to clear that stage with more than half a minute to spare is a pretty neat feeling.

But in general, yes, I agree. Right now, for instance, the first team to beat the Spire of Stars had a good bit less to do with who was clever or even skilled at Destiny. Instead it had a lot to do with who could power level throughout the work week. :(

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 23:32 (292 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Meanwhile one lone Guardian can kill a hive worm god. Talk about ludonarrative dissonance.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Friday, June 01, 2018, 06:27 (291 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The real problem with Warmind is the progression system. After doing all my milestones and running both raids, I gained a grand total of TWO light this week. Either I am unlucky, or the system is broken.


I went up by 5 or 6 last night alone.

I still think the entire Power Level system adds nothing of value to the game. Just ditch it in favor of Halo's Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary modes (or whatever Destiny terminology you want to use to replace those). Nothing would change from a gameplay perspective, other than players not having to worry about their power level or being locked out of progressing for days at a time until the weekly reset. Drops would be only about the gear you want.

How would that even work? How could you have shared patrol spaces with scaled enemies and variations in damage given and taken relative to difficulty when the difficulty can be set manually?

This would be the biggest opportunity for griefing in Destiny ever. Set your difficulty slider to the easiest possible and cut through every activity like a hot knife through butter-- killing enemies before players at higher difficulties can.

I'm not saying this idea is bad because plenty of good games work that way-- like Halo does. But it is fundamentally at odds with the most basic assumptions of Destiny's design-- that nearly every activity is either shared, or can be, even between players with relatively wide gaps between their positions on the progression scale.

Manual difficulty setting within the context of this design is simply not going to work.

Let's take the EP example. EP's top level now is pretty darn hard even at max light, and the low levels are challenging for small groups, especially if you're below 360.

So now enter the difficulty slider. A player manually sets easy mode, foregoing the best rewards (although not even sure what that means in the context of the complete elimination of the progression model). EP's later rounds now might not be easy, but they are easier-- easier than for players in the same space with the difficulty slider set the other way.

Is every player in your fireteam forced to the same difficulty setting? If not, then teams will just take turns alternating settings-- 2 easy, 1 hard, repeat 3x, to easy mode the entire system while getting at least 1 top tier reward phase for each player.

Force fireteams to same difficulty? No problem. The same techniques used to 9-mean EP apply to this scenario, except now you have 1-2 easy mode fireteams and 1 hard mode fireteam. Repeat and alternate.

Restrict entire activities and public spaces to one difficulty mode? Great. Hope you like being frozen in loading zones. Difficulty setting now required to match in matchmaking activities? Longer wait times.

I can easily see the place of frustration that this suggestion comes from but it throws out a lot of what I think Bungie still considers to be the core concepts of Destiny's design.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Friday, June 01, 2018, 08:00 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

The real problem with Warmind is the progression system. After doing all my milestones and running both raids, I gained a grand total of TWO light this week. Either I am unlucky, or the system is broken.


I went up by 5 or 6 last night alone.

I still think the entire Power Level system adds nothing of value to the game. Just ditch it in favor of Halo's Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary modes (or whatever Destiny terminology you want to use to replace those). Nothing would change from a gameplay perspective, other than players not having to worry about their power level or being locked out of progressing for days at a time until the weekly reset. Drops would be only about the gear you want.


How would that even work? How could you have shared patrol spaces with scaled enemies and variations in damage given and taken relative to difficulty when the difficulty can be set manually?

This would be the biggest opportunity for griefing in Destiny ever. Set your difficulty slider to the easiest possible and cut through every activity like a hot knife through butter-- killing enemies before players at higher difficulties can.

Surely it would just spawn 3 different bubbles - one for each difficulty selected? But really, I think this is an idea for story mode, strikes and raids, but Patrols.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Friday, June 01, 2018, 08:00 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

Difficulty setting now required to match in matchmaking activities? Longer wait times.

This option would actually avoid almost all the other issues you listed, since most of those problems assume players with different difficulty settings exist in the same space (which is weird to me, separating them seems like kind of the default assumption in my mind). BUT, it also makes the apparent player population smaller. Potentially a LOT smaller. Which, aside from slow matchmaking like you said, also results in running across less people in public spaces in general.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 01, 2018, 08:03 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

Uh, it would work exactly how it did in the Alpha. A difficulty selector apples to instances only. Patrol stays the way it is. If someone joins a public event or escalation protocol, the enemies then become harder or more numerous. Your fears regarding difficulty and matchmaking are unfounded too. The only instanced activity with matchmaking is strikes, and we already effectively have different difficulties to choose from.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by cheapLEY @, Friday, June 01, 2018, 08:52 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

Who said anything about selectable difficulty? They could absolutely have that for instanced things like raids, strikes, missions.

Patrols would be a mix, much like it is now. Normal patrols would be Easy or Normal. Lost Sectors could be a mix. Set some at every difficulty level. Public Events are Normal with the Heroic versions. Escalation Protocol could start at Normal for a wave or two, and work up to Legendary by the end. You already can’t really over level activities, so nothing really changes from that perspective. All you get rid of is the bad progression system and let Bungie define difficulty for activities with a descriptor instead of a number. Folks are no longer gated out of activities because they didn’t grind enough. The difficulty is just the difficulty. They could go as far as to make something like Escalation Protocol slightly easier when new content comes out, giving folks a chance to go back and get that gear if they want.

I don’t know. I’m not a designer by any means. I just don’t think the level system adds much of anything to the game. Again, you can’t really significantly over level activities, so it only really serves to gate content. I just think there’s a better way to accomplish difficulty than the light level difference they’re leaning on in Warmind.

I buy the argument that it’s neat to hit EP for the first time and get destroyed, then slowly level up and get farther and farther each time. I don’t know how you replicate that without a leveling system.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Friday, June 01, 2018, 14:19 (291 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Who said anything about selectable difficulty? They could absolutely have that for instanced things like raids, strikes, missions.

I am at a loss to explain what

Just ditch it in favor of Halo's Easy, Normal, Heroic, and Legendary modes (or whatever Destiny terminology you want to use to replace those)

means if not selectable difficulty, because in Halo, those are selectable levels of difficulty.

Patrols would be a mix, much like it is now.

That's not like how it is now. There's a range of publicly available activities, and the difficulty a player experiences is a combination of their power level and the power level of the enemies in the activity. A player can increase their own difficulty by de-leveling their gear, but they can never make a world activity any easier except by raising their power level normally through the progression system.

A Halo-style difficulty selector allows players to arbitrarily decrease their difficulty level, equivalent in Destiny's current model to increasing their power level. Presumably the easiest difficulty level would essentially be equivalent to being at the level cap.

Normal patrols would be Easy or Normal. Lost Sectors could be a mix. Set some at every difficulty level. Public Events are Normal with the Heroic versions.

I'm having difficulty understanding what you mean by difficulty in this context.

Escalation Protocol could start at Normal for a wave or two, and work up to Legendary by the end.

How is that different from what it does now?

You already can’t really over level activities, so nothing really changes from that perspective. All you get rid of is the bad progression system and let Bungie define difficulty for activities with a descriptor instead of a number. Folks are no longer gated out of activities because they didn’t grind enough. The difficulty is just the difficulty. They could go as far as to make something like Escalation Protocol slightly easier when new content comes out, giving folks a chance to go back and get that gear if they want.

There is no way in nether hell Bungie is going to abandon the progression system. It is at the absolute core of how the game is designed. Like it or hate it, but it seems to me this is saying you just want a different game. Which is totally fair!

I don’t know. I’m not a designer by any means. I just don’t think the level system adds much of anything to the game. Again, you can’t really significantly over level activities, so it only really serves to gate content. I just think there’s a better way to accomplish difficulty than the light level difference they’re leaning on in Warmind.

I buy the argument that it’s neat to hit EP for the first time and get destroyed, then slowly level up and get farther and farther each time. I don’t know how you replicate that without a leveling system.

That's the same situation that applies to raids, that applies to activities that already have explicit difficulty choices (normal vs prestige raids, normal vs prestige nightfalls, heroic strikes vs vanguard strikes, heroic adventures vs regular adventures, story missions vs heroic story missions (now called meditations). Plus challenges.

It's not just gating content, it's the core of Destiny's design assumptions. It's certainly OK to not like it, but saying one wants Destiny without the progression I would argue is just saying you want a different game, because Destiny's progression system isn't just something tacked onto a Halo-style shooter.

Heck, I even miss some of the bits of progression they've taken out, like leveling up weapons to unlock perks. That gave me a reason to use a bunch of different guns in actual activities, so the XP would unlock them. (Motes were the coward's way out.) In D2 I've got a loadout where I basically only change the heavy based on the type of encounter or burn if required. I collect some of the other guns, but I almost never use them-- there's no reason to.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Friday, June 01, 2018, 15:32 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

It's not just gating content, it's the core of Destiny's design assumptions. It's certainly OK to not like it, but saying one wants Destiny without the progression I would argue is just saying you want a different game, because Destiny's progression system isn't just something tacked onto a Halo-style shooter.

This is categorically untrue. Destiny becomes a game without progression at the point that you hit the level cap, and trust me, I enjoy that game a lot more.

Heck, I even miss some of the bits of progression they've taken out, like leveling up weapons to unlock perks. That gave me a reason to use a bunch of different guns in actual activities, so the XP would unlock them. (Motes were the coward's way out.) In D2 I've got a loadout where I basically only change the heavy based on the type of encounter or burn if required. I collect some of the other guns, but I almost never use them-- there's no reason to.

I try out other guns much more in D2 than I ever did when I had to obnoxiously grind a crippled gun to see if I would like it once leveled... If there is no reason to try other guns once the leveling is done, that means the only reason to try out guns is to level them? This is some cowclicker levels of adulation for the grind. I'd rather be encouraged to try other guns because they have interesting perks or behaviors.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 17:47 (292 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I am glad you agree with me.

Even since Dark Below, I think the idea of over leveled enemies has never been that great. I think everyone here was in agreement that Crota Hard at 33 and PoE at 35 wasn't a 'good' type of difficult. It was 'fake' difficulty.

I guess I am in the middle of the road here. I definitely want some challenging stuff that I work towards getting good enough to master. But I don't like it being locked behind a gated progression system.

The real problem with Warmind is the progression system. After doing all my milestones and running both raids, I gained a grand total of TWO light this week. Either I am unlucky, or the system is broken.

369 is close enough to 370 I guess. We need one more blind raider for Tuesday!

Your obsession with hitting 370 before the blind raid is misplaced, I think. What's fun about being blind is figuring out the mechanics, which I think can be done at 360 or maybe lower. I'm pretty sure we figured everything out but didn't have the DPS to finish. That's fine with me.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 18:15 (292 days ago) @ Kermit

Your obsession with hitting 370 before the blind raid is misplaced, I think. What's fun about being blind is figuring out the mechanics, which I think can be done at 360 or maybe lower. I'm pretty sure we figured everything out but didn't have the DPS to finish. That's fine with me.

I don't think it's misplaced at all. You're right in that figuring out the mechanics is the main thing to do blind. But I don't think wanting to actually be able to complete it is misguided or unwarranted.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, June 01, 2018, 03:02 (292 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Your obsession with hitting 370 before the blind raid is misplaced, I think. What's fun about being blind is figuring out the mechanics, which I think can be done at 360 or maybe lower. I'm pretty sure we figured everything out but didn't have the DPS to finish. That's fine with me.


I don't think it's misplaced at all. You're right in that figuring out the mechanics is the main thing to do blind. But I don't think wanting to actually be able to complete it is misguided or unwarranted.

Sure, but the hardest challenge can be getting five other people to stay blind until you're the "required" level. Personally, I'd take the blind experience without that final chest over no blind experience.

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Whom Is Destiny Being Made For?

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Friday, June 01, 2018, 10:17 (291 days ago) @ Kermit

I agree, but I think the point is that is a false dilemma that only exists because they launched so early.

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For whom is Destiny being made?

by Funkmon @, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 22:54 (292 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I agree with you guys, but I like easy boring stuff.

The fact is, when Bingle casualifies Destiny, it reviews well, then a week later everyone complains. See essentially the entirety of Destiny 2, and normal mode Crota.

When Bingle makes Destiny difficult or grindy for the hardcore players, everyone complains immediately...but they also keep playing.

Remember how obnoxious it was to get levelled up for Vault of Ass? Remember the complex mechanics for Oryx? Remember the loot cave?

When Destiny is made for the hardcore, in general, even the casuals play more. We all complain, but we play.

When the complaints are fixed and Destiny is made for casuals, you have the current state of affairs in the online Destiny community.

Bungie is realizing this, and appears to be going back to making it for hardcore players. This is probably a good idea, even though I like it less.

thank you for cleaning up that dangling preposition

by Oholiab, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 23:44 (292 days ago) @ Funkmon

now back to reading all the posts

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^I think Funk nailed it^

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Friday, June 01, 2018, 13:18 (291 days ago) @ Funkmon

- No text -

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agreed

by Robot Chickens, Friday, June 01, 2018, 13:26 (291 days ago) @ ManKitten

- No text -

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I've got an issue with this point

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Friday, June 01, 2018, 14:06 (291 days ago) @ Funkmon

I agree with you guys, but I like easy boring stuff.

The fact is, when Bingle casualifies Destiny, it reviews well, then a week later everyone complains. See essentially the entirety of Destiny 2, and normal mode Crota.

When Bingle makes Destiny difficult or grindy for the hardcore players, everyone complains immediately...but they also keep playing.

Remember how obnoxious it was to get levelled up for Vault of Ass? Remember the complex mechanics for Oryx? Remember the loot cave?

When Destiny is made for the hardcore, in general, even the casuals play more. We all complain, but we play.

When the complaints are fixed and Destiny is made for casuals, you have the current state of affairs in the online Destiny community.

Bungie is realizing this, and appears to be going back to making it for hardcore players. This is probably a good idea, even though I like it less.

I think this glosses over that difficulty determined by light level vs through challenging mechanics is drastically different. "Bet you can't stick it" is way different from "failed the damage check".

I'd prefer if we made the distinction of arbitrary grindy mechanics and real challenges. We have yet to see what happens when Bungie makes Destiny (as a whole) just straight up difficult.

Right now I'm really enjoying the Prestige Nightfall score cards. They provide the ability to play around with the difficulty with the various buffs/debuffs while optimizing for quick completion. It's so crunchy from a challenge perspective I love it. I also love the Raids. Make the rest of the game like this, lock cool gear behind crazy challenging scores on story missions. Have exotic weapon quests that have Raid like mechanics. Give the players a proper challenge, not a treadmill.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 17:59 (292 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.

As a typically pessimistic Destiny player...

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 18:45 (292 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.

...I gotta say I disagree on this one. I never participate expecting to get very far; I participate because its kinda fun taking on large hordes of enemies in an epic fashion. It's the most "Destiny" an activity has ever been, IMO. Maybe Mayhem. Destiny's unique gameplay mechanism is Light. The activities that utilize it more tend to be the most fun gameplay wise and have the most flair to them.

And the fact that they made made sure to include a quick-swap flag in the difficulty change shows that they wanted to make sure that, no matter which direction was default and which was backup, they could give some weight to the community feedback without risking any long term issues. I'd share your concern if they made this change in such a way that it would take a long time to reverse, or even worse if it was irreversible. But I think they handled it well.

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As a typically pessimistic Destiny player...

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 19:24 (292 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Destiny's unique gameplay mechanism is Light.

Huh what?

Leveling and having your stats affected by varying differences in your level vs other characters levels has been a basic gameplay concept for awhile now.

I'd argue that Destiny's unique gameplay mechanism is it's Shared World feature. Hanging out at the Court Of Oryx and seeing a random trot on over to engage in a feature rich challenge was always amazing.

And if it wasn't the Shared World nature of the game, it would definitely be the raids, they're pretty unique in comparison to anything else out there...

Right now, facing down a horde of bullet sponges isn't all that interesting.

I don't mean Light the level...

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, May 31, 2018, 21:17 (292 days ago) @ kidtsunami

...I mean Light the narrative concept. Supers, grenades, melees, abilities, orbs. It's the key differentiation in the window dressing.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Friday, June 01, 2018, 06:51 (291 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.

Not trying to finish, or not playing at all?

A couple of questlines with decent rewards require 3 & 10 level completions. They're all doable below 360 in public spaces where others are running EP.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, June 01, 2018, 06:59 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.


Not trying to finish, or not playing at all?

A couple of questlines with decent rewards require 3 & 10 level completions. They're all doable below 360 in public spaces where others are running EP.

My problem was finding public spaces where other people were running it. I would at best get only 2 other low level people to join me. The only way I finally got the quests done was to start it right after a public event and hoping enough people hung around to do it. They usually only hung around for the first try, and the farthest I ever got was level 3.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Friday, June 01, 2018, 07:18 (291 days ago) @ bluerunner


A couple of questlines with decent rewards require 3 & 10 level completions. They're all doable below 360 in public spaces where others are running EP.

Which is where I'm stuck in the grind. I don't particularly mind it, as I too enjoy every bit of what EP is (and I think it's been implemented extremely well); I think a lot of us would do well to keep in mind that EP will get easier and more people will willingly commit to it as the average LL of the player base rises.

My problem was finding public spaces where other people were running it. I would at best get only 2 other low level people to join me. The only way I finally got the quests done was to start it right after a public event and hoping enough people hung around to do it. They usually only hung around for the first try, and the farthest I ever got was level 3.

I think this is by design. To misapply a term, Public Events are like a honeypot for running EP. The higher LL guardians will start showing up soon and the whole process will get easier. FWIW, I think it's an investment system done right.

I dare say it's elegant.

~M

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Friday, June 01, 2018, 07:54 (291 days ago) @ Malagate

I think this is by design. To misapply a term, Public Events are like a honeypot for running EP. The higher LL guardians will start showing up soon and the whole process will get easier. FWIW, I think it's an investment system done right.

I dare say it's elegant.

~M

I'm not sure it's that elegant given the complaints.

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Give it time.

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Friday, June 01, 2018, 08:16 (291 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I think this is by design. To misapply a term, Public Events are like a honeypot for running EP. The higher LL guardians will start showing up soon and the whole process will get easier. FWIW, I think it's an investment system done right.

I dare say it's elegant.

~M


I'm not sure it's that elegant given the complaints.

I hear you, but much in the same way that a player new to Destiny at this point will see a wealth of content and activities (whereas some of us are complaining that Warmind is awfully light on the same things); if we take a step back and think about the behavior of the activity over time, it's an entirely different picture.

You in particular are going to avoid that part of the experience by not attempting until you're max light, but I think you see what I'm saying.

~M

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Give it time.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, June 01, 2018, 10:43 (291 days ago) @ Malagate

I think this is by design. To misapply a term, Public Events are like a honeypot for running EP. The higher LL guardians will start showing up soon and the whole process will get easier. FWIW, I think it's an investment system done right.

I dare say it's elegant.

~M


I'm not sure it's that elegant given the complaints.


I hear you, but much in the same way that a player new to Destiny at this point will see a wealth of content and activities (whereas some of us are complaining that Warmind is awfully light on the same things); if we take a step back and think about the behavior of the activity over time, it's an entirely different picture.

You in particular are going to avoid that part of the experience by not attempting until you're max light, but I think you see what I'm saying.

~M

Funkmon eloquently described above the schizophrenic nature of the Destiny community regarding difficulty, and I think agree with Mal on this. I like that there's an activity I can't complete right now. I've got something to look forward to. Destiny has always had something out of reach for me, and that's okay. I'm more sympathetic to the complaint that the raid is available too soon, but that's because there's an element that I like (blindness) that becomes harder and harder to preserve across a group as time goes on. It's imperative to have access to that content soon after it's released. (I do miss the early days--you could find blind VoG raiders here a month after it came out.)

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Friday, June 01, 2018, 14:25 (291 days ago) @ bluerunner

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.


Not trying to finish, or not playing at all?

A couple of questlines with decent rewards require 3 & 10 level completions. They're all doable below 360 in public spaces where others are running EP.


My problem was finding public spaces where other people were running it. I would at best get only 2 other low level people to join me. The only way I finally got the quests done was to start it right after a public event and hoping enough people hung around to do it. They usually only hung around for the first try, and the farthest I ever got was level 3.

To get Sleeper Simulant you only need 3 level completions. If you've gotten as far as level 3, you've already done 2. Finish level 1 one more time and you're done.

Do the whole thing with Nascent Dawn active, and you're 1/3 of the way towards the 2nd weapon in that quest, which requires 10 completions, since doing level 1 ten times counts as 10 completions. If you get farther, it counts, but there are rewards to be had (at least at the beginning) for doing EP even if you can't get to the end.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, June 01, 2018, 18:39 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

I finished both a couple of days ago, but most of my time was spent going back and forth between zones looking for one that was populated enough to have a chance. I was surprised that even when there were several people, some of them didn't join in.

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I just haven't bothered with EP at all

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Friday, June 01, 2018, 07:56 (291 days ago) @ narcogen

I'm at 363 and I just don't even want to bother wasting my time butting my head against a light level wall.


Not trying to finish, or not playing at all?

A couple of questlines with decent rewards require 3 & 10 level completions. They're all doable below 360 in public spaces where others are running EP.

Not trying it at all, I've got other activities to do in the time I have available to play Destiny. I'm mostly raiding at the moment. Once I hit the LL cap I guess I'll give it a go again.

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Who vs Whom

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, June 01, 2018, 10:52 (291 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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Who Is Destiny Being Made For? "Hardcore" vs. "DadGuy"

by dogcow @, Hiding from Bob, in the vent core., Wednesday, June 06, 2018, 10:36 (286 days ago) @ Ragashingo

A section in this week’s THAB has me concerned with the direction Destiny is going in. Here’s what Bungie said:

Normally changing enemy Power levels requires a patch, but during development, we created unique server flags which can flip between two sets of Power levels for all Escalation Protocol enemies. These were created in the wake of the community summit, when we decided to make the activity even more difficult


If you’ll remember, Bungie invited a fair number of high end Destiny players to its offices to show off new things and get feedback on the direction the game was going. And, when Bungie first talked about Escalation Protocol they mentioned that they made it harder based on this group’s feedback but they didn’t say exactly what that meant. Well, now we know. What it meant was Bungie cranked up the later levels of EP from difficult to nearly impossible.

So, what’s the problem here? Well frankly, once again I’m feeling like the game challenges and difficulties are being over-tuned towards the ultra elite Destiny players who have time to attend multi-day community summits. To me, setting the final EP enemies at 400 always sounded like complete overkill. Especially as we got to play Warmind and found how long the road to leveling up was going to be. I feel like I’m being left out if not excluded from cool parts of Destiny 2 based on not being able to play all day long.

Another example of this is the quick release of the newest Raid Lair of that Raid Lair. By releasing the Spire of Stars within Warmind’s first week, Bugine all but ensured that the only players who could even reach its recommended power level were those players who could afford to power level all day long throughout the week. For the rest of us, even us enthusiastic players who put in several hours of play each night? We were nowhere near ready to raid by the time it went live. Once again, I feel like the game and its release schedule was over tuned to favor those players who were able to treat Destiny more as a job than as a form of entertainment.


Sounds to me like a "hardcore" mode needs to exist for the streamers who play 40-80 hours a week & a "Family Man" (DadGuy? ;) ) mode needs to exist for those of us who can only dedicate a handful of hours a week (if that, I struggle to get 2 hours a week in) to our "hobby".

Seriously. At work there's a single guy who plays & he greatly laments the loss of the grind, where as I rejoiced at the loss of the grind as I could participate in my favorite things w/o spending inordinate amounts of time preparing (grinding) for them. (Geeze, I sound like Cody... <sigh> ;) ). We are 2 very different gamers who love the same type of gameplay, but he likes the grind, I don't have time for it (grind != gameplay, grind = rewards & addiction er engagement, whatever).

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Who Is Destiny Being Made For? "Hardcore" vs. "DadGuy"

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, June 06, 2018, 13:45 (286 days ago) @ dogcow

Seriously. At work there's a single guy who plays & he greatly laments the loss of the grind, where as I rejoiced at the loss of the grind as I could participate in my favorite things w/o spending inordinate amounts of time preparing (grinding) for them.

This is my scenario too. There is a plus side though. What takes the hardcore weeks or days to complete it takes us months. So there is never a lull! By the time we finally get around to completing things, the next update is just around the corner.

I'm only halfway through Nascent Dawn 3/5. And I'm only that far because It wasn't until a few days ago I was powerful enough to be worth a darn at Escalation Protocol.

Silver lining, no downtime for us :D

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This is why personas are so troublesome

by kidtsunami @, San Francisco, CA, Thursday, June 07, 2018, 06:52 (285 days ago) @ dogcow

A section in this week’s THAB has me concerned with the direction Destiny is going in. Here’s what Bungie said:

Normally changing enemy Power levels requires a patch, but during development, we created unique server flags which can flip between two sets of Power levels for all Escalation Protocol enemies. These were created in the wake of the community summit, when we decided to make the activity even more difficult


If you’ll remember, Bungie invited a fair number of high end Destiny players to its offices to show off new things and get feedback on the direction the game was going. And, when Bungie first talked about Escalation Protocol they mentioned that they made it harder based on this group’s feedback but they didn’t say exactly what that meant. Well, now we know. What it meant was Bungie cranked up the later levels of EP from difficult to nearly impossible.

So, what’s the problem here? Well frankly, once again I’m feeling like the game challenges and difficulties are being over-tuned towards the ultra elite Destiny players who have time to attend multi-day community summits. To me, setting the final EP enemies at 400 always sounded like complete overkill. Especially as we got to play Warmind and found how long the road to leveling up was going to be. I feel like I’m being left out if not excluded from cool parts of Destiny 2 based on not being able to play all day long.

Another example of this is the quick release of the newest Raid Lair of that Raid Lair. By releasing the Spire of Stars within Warmind’s first week, Bugine all but ensured that the only players who could even reach its recommended power level were those players who could afford to power level all day long throughout the week. For the rest of us, even us enthusiastic players who put in several hours of play each night? We were nowhere near ready to raid by the time it went live. Once again, I feel like the game and its release schedule was over tuned to favor those players who were able to treat Destiny more as a job than as a form of entertainment.

Sounds to me like a "hardcore" mode needs to exist for the streamers who play 40-80 hours a week & a "Family Man" (DadGuy? ;) ) mode needs to exist for those of us who can only dedicate a handful of hours a week (if that, I struggle to get 2 hours a week in) to our "hobby".

Seriously. At work there's a single guy who plays & he greatly laments the loss of the grind, where as I rejoiced at the loss of the grind as I could participate in my favorite things w/o spending inordinate amounts of time preparing (grinding) for them. (Geeze, I sound like Cody... <sigh> ;) ). We are 2 very different gamers who love the same type of gameplay, but he likes the grind, I don't have time for it (grind != gameplay, grind = rewards & addiction er engagement, whatever).

Can we call what you're describing a "Grinder" not "Hardcore"? There's a difference between pulling off 2-manning Calus Prestige and just running all the raids, grinding out the light levels.

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This. I like this.

by Harmanimus, Thursday, June 07, 2018, 07:04 (285 days ago) @ kidtsunami

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