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It's honestly hard to explain software development. (Criticism)

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Monday, August 06, 2018, 06:50 (288 days ago)

As a software engineer I honestly try to hold my tongue when people unknowingly say things could be done easily done or question why Bungie hasn't fixed this or that. Every time I am just thinking in my head, from what information I know, how easy or hard it might be. And I'm only thinking about the standpoint of my job, which is just a developer, not a tester. Well, technically I do both but my job title is developer :D

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.

And this is just further complicated by what type of product you have. I personally work on a product that is "Software as a Service" which means that it's a live product that is always running and there to support other companies. I support the foundation of the software, so if anything goes wrong it affects x% of people. And my managers have to constantly figure out what is the best use of my time. I have to fix things, but I also have to develop a product that keeps our company from going under.

Most people who are on a customer side of a product fail to realize this for SAS products and yes online games are basically SAS products. Customers care about their software working, yes that is very important. But a company has to make money. So they have all the developers spending probably at the very least 80% of their time developing and not fixing stuff.

Anyway, I'm mostly just vocalizing in the best way I can on how hard it is for people to understand software in general. It's not easy. Let me say that again. It's not easy. There is a reason that the most complex software today is done by hundreds of developers.

P.S. I went ahead and just put this in criticism because I figure there is going to be a lot of stuff brought up or no one will reply :)

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SAS == SAAS - also complexity explained

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, August 06, 2018, 07:25 (288 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

In case anyone is confused, by SAS MacAddictXIV means Software as a Service. Another way of saying that is any software which is live all the time. Such software is in many ways much more complicated that regular software that gets released on a schedule.

I like taking a "simple" problem that everyone understands and looking at all the complexity that is actually hidden there. For example, how hard could it possibly be to add a form to capture somebody's name?

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/

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SAS == SAAS - also complexity explained

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Monday, August 06, 2018, 07:58 (288 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

In case anyone is confused, by SAS MacAddictXIV means Software as a Service. Another way of saying that is any software which is live all the time. Such software is in many ways much more complicated that regular software that gets released on a schedule.

Bahhh, I made the assumption that the "a" wasn't in the acronym :) I say SAAS, I don't spell it out!

I like taking a "simple" problem that everyone understands and looking at all the complexity that is actually hidden there. For example, how hard could it possibly be to add a form to capture somebody's name?

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-programmers-believe-about-names/

This is a very good example. As someone who actively works with a third part system of databases where data input is a huge thing. I have to figure out why someone would put a note about someones schedule in a birthday field on a common basis...

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It's honestly hard to explain software development.

by slycrel ⌂, Monday, August 06, 2018, 13:40 (288 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Having worked in software development for almost 20 years professionally (about 5 at a SAAS company), I can absolutely agree with this. It's super easy to assume context -- often the simple things actually either don't have the right complex (making them not simple) or the context itself is very complex, but assumed away.

At the same time, I can honestly say that, for some things (i.e. shader deletion, as one of my pet peeves), even the "hard" version is probably doable if it's a priority. (There are orders of magnitude of hard... think tens vs hundreds vs thousands) Priorities of what needs to be solved is a very opinionated thing, and I feel for Bungie here. They won't be able to win with some portion of the community no matter what they do when they pick their dev priorities.

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Priorities.

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 09:48 (287 days ago) @ slycrel

At the same time, I can honestly say that, for some things (i.e. shader deletion, as one of my pet peeves), even the "hard" version is probably doable if it's a priority. (There are orders of magnitude of hard... think tens vs hundreds vs thousands) Priorities of what needs to be solved is a very opinionated thing, and I feel for Bungie here. They won't be able to win with some portion of the community no matter what they do when they pick their dev priorities.

Dev priorities is the other thing I wanted to bring up. The thing that devs rarely ever get to choose.

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It's honestly hard to explain software development.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, August 06, 2018, 13:52 (288 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.

This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.

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It's honestly hard to explain software development.

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Monday, August 06, 2018, 14:32 (288 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.


This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.

Sure but I'm not picking games based on whether I can delete shaders one-at-a-time or by stacks. I'm picking the games based on if they provide experiences I enjoy by myself or with others. The shader thing may be an annoyance, but it's not making me decide to go out and buy the Division either.

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It's honestly hard to explain software development.

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 08:10 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.


This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.

That's fine, but we're specifically talking about the instances where someone says it's an "EASY" fix... don't change the goal posts.

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It's honestly hard to explain software development.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 09:13 (287 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.


This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.


That's fine, but we're specifically talking about the instances where someone says it's an "EASY" fix... don't change the goal posts.

Like you guys are doing? I was talking about an easy fix CONCEPTUALLY to the system. Not implementation.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 09:31 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.


This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.


That's fine, but we're specifically talking about the instances where someone says it's an "EASY" fix... don't change the goal posts.


Like you guys are doing? I was talking about an easy fix CONCEPTUALLY to the system. Not implementation.

Conceptually it's not that hard to edit a movie...

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:00 (287 days ago) @ kidtsunami
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:05

I want to try and explain the complexities of software engineering, but it's honestly REALLY hard to tell people how complex some problems are for very little fixes or how easy some fixes have been for what seemed like very complex problems. You honestly never know.


This is probably true. But from the perspective of the player, they don't really care when something is broken. Simple or complex to fix, the result is still the same on their end. The player is paying money for the game, and there are other games out there that are competition.


That's fine, but we're specifically talking about the instances where someone says it's an "EASY" fix... don't change the goal posts.


Like you guys are doing? I was talking about an easy fix CONCEPTUALLY to the system. Not implementation.


Conceptually it's not that hard to edit a movie...

Because you start with the conception! That informs how you actually go about cutting the film. If that foundation is bad, it doesn’t matter what you do because it won’t be effective.

Michael Bay generally executes on what he intends. But what he intends is stupid.

Likewise designing an inventory management with this shortcoming is stupid. Even if it was hard to implement.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:04 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What he intends being “stupid” is subjective. Your distaste for an intended function does not invalidate the decisions made by others to get there. (See, development priorities, valuation of execution options, ease of implementation, etc.)

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:07 (287 days ago) @ Harmanimus

What he intends being “stupid” is subjective. Your distaste for an intended function does not invalidate the decisions made by others to get there. (See, development priorities, valuation of execution options, ease of implementation, etc.)

You know he makes complicated expensive films right? Few corners are cut for ‘ease of implimentation’.

In all honesty I care very very little about deleting shaders. I don’t bother with them myself. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a shortcoming in design.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:10 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

See, valuation of execution options.

Selling spectacle is very different than software development. Usually.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:42 (287 days ago) @ Harmanimus

See, valuation of execution options.

Selling spectacle is very different than software development. Usually.

Bungie's UI is pretty much based on spectacle is it not? There are many far better more efficient options for a controller.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 10:46 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Highly subject to personal interface preferences. I play almost entirely on PC now. The interface is very well suited to PC, from my perspective. But there are definitely some things that my benefit from hybridization with other methods for a controller. But I’m pretty sure the sticky cursor ring probably fulfills the majority of their interface design goals with the best ease of use.

But in general I wouldn’t consider most of the interface as spectacle, though there are elements here and there.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 12:03 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

See, valuation of execution options.

Selling spectacle is very different than software development. Usually.


Bungie's UI is pretty much based on spectacle is it not? There are many far better more efficient options for a controller.

You know, there are few things that you say that really irritate me anymore, because I'm used to your style of discourse; but this is some disingenuous crap. You're just saying that to lean into some argument that you think you have, and it's so impossibly thin, you're just reaching to have SOMETHING to say.

Based on spectacle? It's generally as stripped-down and as unobtrusive as possible. It is remarkably efficient at conveying the necessary information and doesn't clutter up the screen unnecessarily.

Is it atypical of consoles? Sure. Does it feel at times like it was designed to be used with a mouse? It does. Regardless of my own personal feelings on the subject matter; it rankles me when someone of your intellect and ability does this.

Find a better argument to make. Don't say things that aren't true just because you want to bolster your point.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 12:30 (287 days ago) @ Malagate
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 12:34

See, valuation of execution options.

Selling spectacle is very different than software development. Usually.


Bungie's UI is pretty much based on spectacle is it not? There are many far better more efficient options for a controller.


You know, there are few things that you say that really irritate me anymore, because I'm used to your style of discourse; but this is some disingenuous crap. You're just saying that to lean into some argument that you think you have, and it's so impossibly thin, you're just reaching to have SOMETHING to say.

Based on spectacle? It's generally as stripped-down and as unobtrusive as possible. It is remarkably efficient at conveying the necessary information and doesn't clutter up the screen unnecessarily.

Is it atypical of consoles? Sure. Does it feel at times like it was designed to be used with a mouse? It does. Regardless of my own personal feelings on the subject matter; it rankles me when someone of your intellect and ability does this.

Find a better argument to make. Don't say things that aren't true just because you want to bolster your point.

It conveys very little information actually. If you open your vault, unless you have every thumbnail memorized, you have to move the cursor over an image to get the weapon name and stats. A simple scrolling list conveys more. The icons tell you virtually nothing.

Your inventory is limited in size because the screen can only display so many icons. A simple scrolling list would let you carry tons of stuff without having to dismantle items and consumable you no longer need.

It loads images slowly even on the Pro hardware. I have to wait for things to pop up before I can switch weapons around. Style lover function. In a firefight the delay can mean death.

It is not as functional as it could be. It is not untrue.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 12:51 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It conveys very little information actually. If you open your vault, unless you have every thumbnail memorized, you have to move the cursor over an image to get the weapon name and stats. A simple scrolling list conveys more. The icons tell you virtually nothing.

You can pull triggers to get elemental information. Power level is one of the most prominent data points displayed. At a thumbnail level, you don't need more. Knowing weapons by thumbnail is something that happens over time with familiarity. You know this. This is not a design flaw.


Your inventory is limited in size because the screen can only display so many icons. A simple scrolling list would let you carry tons of stuff without having to dismantle items and consumable you no longer need.

But why are you blaming this decision on the UI? Is it not part of the overall design to have a vault? Otherwise we'd see Guardians with a vault-in-your-pocket never landing in the tower because loadouts would be irrelevant. There are more reasons here than UI decisions being made.


It loads images slowly even on the Pro hardware. I have to wait for things to pop up before I can switch weapons around. Style lover function. In a firefight the delay can mean death.

Again, why is this the fault of the UI design? How fast things load isn't a function of the UI, is it? There are many more factors in this example. But nice try on "style over function". NEXT.


It is not as functional as it could be. It is not untrue.

So by what metric are we measuring functionality? Because returning to your claim that I took issue with, you still haven't proven your claim that the UI is about spectacle over function. Try another one.

~m

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 13:31 (287 days ago) @ Malagate

It conveys very little information actually. If you open your vault, unless you have every thumbnail memorized, you have to move the cursor over an image to get the weapon name and stats. A simple scrolling list conveys more. The icons tell you virtually nothing.

At a thumbnail level, you don't need more.

You mean like the gun name? Literally the most useful thing you can display?! Even if you know the thumbnail, you still have to scan every image to find what you want. Not optimal.

But why are you blaming this decision on the UI? Is it not part of the overall design to have a vault? Otherwise we'd see Guardians with a vault-in-your-pocket never landing in the tower because loadouts would be irrelevant. There are more reasons here than UI decisions being made.

I am talking about consumables and things like that, as well as things like engrams. You still pick up engrams even when your inventory is full… they just go to the postmaster which is an extra step. Again, because there is only so much room on screen and everything must fit.

It loads images slowly even on the Pro hardware. I have to wait for things to pop up before I can switch weapons around. Style lover function. In a firefight the delay can mean death.

Again, why is this the fault of the UI design? How fast things load isn't a function of the UI, is it?

It sure as shit is. Good UI is RESPONSIVE. If your UI doesn't have to load thumbnails, it's gonna be faster.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 06:48 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Again, why is this the fault of the UI design? How fast things load isn't a function of the UI, is it?


It sure as shit is. Good UI is RESPONSIVE. If your UI doesn't have to load thumbnails, it's gonna be faster.

I totally agree that UI needs to be responsive. And my guess is that it's not responsive because it ties into a live game. It takes time to load not because it has to load a thumbnail image or even a guardian, it takes time because it has to ping a server to figure out what thumbnails and equipment on a guardian it has to load. They should have some sort of caching that is done locally to store what you "currently have"

I don't know though because I don't know how their system works.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:47 (286 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

You start running into concerns of exploitation of client-stored data. As having a 350 MIDA cached (as opposed to a 345 MIDA) and the client-side comes back with it as a 400 MIDA now you still have to have that validation ping and are going to have latency in verification.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:00 (286 days ago) @ Harmanimus

You start running into concerns of exploitation of client-stored data. As having a 350 MIDA cached (as opposed to a 345 MIDA) and the client-side comes back with it as a 400 MIDA now you still have to have that validation ping and are going to have latency in verification.

I make assumptions (bad habit of someone in my field) that people are going to consider things like this. I know that the application is making a call during those intervals when the UI indicates things are loading. That's a technical choice that was made, not a UI design choice. Which is why calling it such confuses the issue. ::shrug::

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:16 (286 days ago) @ Malagate

That’s totally fair. And you are right, it isn’t inherently a UI issue. But when people are only consumer-thinking, everything is UI. Which I agree is confusing.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 12:57 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Each icon tells you the base weapon class, as well as archetype for Foundry Weapons, if it is Kinetic or Energy, if it is MW. The first will also identify if it is a power weapon due to knowing what weapon class it is. Exclusions for Exotics, but you should probably have learned those by now.

Also, if you are changing gear in the middle of a firefight, I would hope you have memorized what those icons are for. While you might prefer a spreadsheet of your gear, for most players that is excess information density and just muddies the waters. Providing the higher level information at a glance holds more value than providing all the information to scroll through.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 13:34 (287 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Also, if you are changing gear in the middle of a firefight, I would hope you have memorized what those icons are for. While you might prefer a spreadsheet of your gear, for most players that is excess information density and just muddies the waters. Providing the higher level information at a glance holds more value than providing all the information to scroll through.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating right? So why is Bungie's UI not adopted widely for console games where you manage a lot of inventory?

I wonder.

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What is the point of discussing something conceptually

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 13:59 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Blops 4 is using it iirc. I’m sure it isn’t the only one adopting a similar menu system. And I mean. MMOs? Survival-crafting games? I mean. Icons aren’t unique to Destiny.

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Scrolling lists suck.

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 14:09 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Can you honestly imagine selecting a weapon slot, then scrolling through a lost of dozens of weapons to find what you want? That sounds awful. In fact, games that work like that almost universally have “bad inventory management” as a big complaint. Mass Effect 1, Oblivion and Skyrim, for sure.

Destiny’s UI is far better with the cursor and icons than it would be with a bunch of lists.

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Scrolling lists suck.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 14:14 (287 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Can you honestly imagine selecting a weapon slot, then scrolling through a lost of dozens of weapons to find what you want? That sounds awful.

Um. You'd have at most nine to scroll through.

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Scrolling lists suck.

by Harmanimus, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 14:39 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

500 Vault Slots

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Lol!

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 15:26 (287 days ago) @ Cody Miller

One of your points was that you could carry tons of stuff because it would only have to load a list! So which is it? If it’s only to fit more items, a lost would suck to manage. If we don’t need more stuff, a list isn’t all that beneficial.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, August 07, 2018, 18:13 (287 days ago) @ cheapLEY

One of your points was that you could carry tons of stuff because it would only have to load a list! So which is it? If it’s only to fit more items, a lost would suck to manage. If we don’t need more stuff, a list isn’t all that beneficial.

Your example was with equipping weapons. You can carry 9 of each. Hence the response.

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Lol!

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:24 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

One of your points was that you could carry tons of stuff because it would only have to load a list! So which is it? If it’s only to fit more items, a lost would suck to manage. If we don’t need more stuff, a list isn’t all that beneficial.


Your example was with equipping weapons. You can carry 9 of each. Hence the response.

But the "point" you were making as you were casting wildly about for a claim to make was that we should be able to carry a bunch more stuff, but were it not for the UI. And this was after your original assertion that the UI is all about spectacle. You're moving the goalposts when you're called out on something; you never go back and just address your original comment and either correct yourself or admit you were wrong.

~m

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:30 (286 days ago) @ Malagate

But the "point" you were making as you were casting wildly about for a claim to make was that we should be able to carry a bunch more stuff, but were it not for the UI.

Consumables. Not weapons. Read my words next time. I never ever argued against the 9 reserve weapons per slot.

And this was after your original assertion that the UI is all about spectacle. You're moving the goalposts when you're called out on something; you never go back and just address your original comment and either correct yourself or admit you were wrong.

I don't believe I've ever backed down. I've given numerous examples of why the UI's design hinders you. It does not clearly convey necessary information, and slows you down by showing unnecessary information in fancy ways.

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Lol!

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:41 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

But the "point" you were making as you were casting wildly about for a claim to make was that we should be able to carry a bunch more stuff, but were it not for the UI.


Consumables. Not weapons. Read my words next time. I never ever argued against the 9 reserve weapons per slot.

And this was after your original assertion that the UI is all about spectacle. You're moving the goalposts when you're called out on something; you never go back and just address your original comment and either correct yourself or admit you were wrong.


I don't believe I've ever backed down. I've given numerous examples of why the UI's design hinders you. It does not clearly convey necessary information, and slows you down by showing unnecessary information in fancy ways.

No, you haven't. That's exactly what I'm saying. The argument you were making was for spectacle. For form over function. You're making that claim about a minimalist UI that has had a lot more thought put into it than you're willing to give credit for, because that more-objective perspective doesn't serve the point you were trying to make. It is tenuous claim at best. Everything since has been hand-waving.

Keep proving my point. I'm done here.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:49 (286 days ago) @ Malagate

No, you haven't. That's exactly what I'm saying. The argument you were making was for spectacle. For form over function. You're making that claim about a minimalist UI that has had a lot more thought put into it than you're willing to give credit for, because that more-objective perspective doesn't serve the point you were trying to make.

There's nothing minimalist about it. It's relatively large, fancy icons laid out in such as way that does not quickly convey information. I literally have to scan my vault line by line until I see the gun I want to pull out. There is no rhyme or reason to the sorting systems that helps you find a particular gun. If a shelf in the library worked this way, you would have a pain in the ass finding a book.

It very much gets in your way, when it should HELP you find things.

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Lol!

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:55 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There is no rhyme or reason to the sorting systems that helps you find a particular gun.

What? Yeah, there is. By default, it sorts by weapon/armor slot. Did you really not know that!? lololololol

It very much gets in your way, when it should HELP you find things.

Boy, it must suck to not be able to distinguish a yellow hand cannon icon from a blue pulse rifle icon.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:00 (286 days ago) @ breitzen

There is no rhyme or reason to the sorting systems that helps you find a particular gun.


What? Yeah, there is. By default, it sorts by weapon/armor slot. Did you really not know that!? lololololol

Find Baligant in less than 2 seconds:

[image]

Time's up.

But it would be already be found in an alphabetized list by gun type.

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It just keeps getting...

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:11 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

[image]

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Just FYI, it took me maybe 0.1 seconds to find it.

by Harmanimus, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:14 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

Lol!

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:15 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There is no rhyme or reason to the sorting systems that helps you find a particular gun.


What? Yeah, there is. By default, it sorts by weapon/armor slot. Did you really not know that!? lololololol


Find Baligant in less than 2 seconds:

[image]

Time's up.

But it would be already be found in an alphabetized list by gun type.

I found it in about 1, actually. But I'm going to actually agree with you that the Vault interface isn't as good as it could be. (I don't use it at all, so I hadn't even remembered that it wasn't as good as the on-character use of exactly the same interface.)

Yeah - Bungie's rather elegant, minimalist interface doesn't scale very well. I'll actually agree with you on that. If you were ONLY talking about the Vault this whole time, I'll step out of the conversation, after reprimanding you that you probably shouldn't say "the interface is bad" if you're talking about ONE SPECIFIC IMPLEMENTATION of that interface, while ignoring the (far more common) uses of the same functionality, unless you're super-clear at the start that you're ONLY talking about that one specific implementation. (Which you weren't.)

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Lol!

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:18 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There is no rhyme or reason to the sorting systems that helps you find a particular gun.


What? Yeah, there is. By default, it sorts by weapon/armor slot. Did you really not know that!? lololololol


Find Baligant in less than 2 seconds:

[image]

Time's up.

I found two possibilities within 5 seconds and would have known for certain if I could have hovered over it. If you really wanted it to be quicker you'd resort the icons. (I'm curious on how you have your vault sorted. Acquisition order?)

But it would be already be found in an alphabetized list by gun type.

Only because it would be near the top of the 192 item long list. And that required you know the name of the weapon. There are numerous weapons whose names I don't know, but I can find by icon just fine. When you have hundreds of weapons in a game, the designer needs to identify the hierarchy of information, and Bungie chose weapon type, rarity, and element above name. A decision I think works well.

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Lol!

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:23 (286 days ago) @ breitzen

That’s also a fair point. I generally don’t immediately recall weapon names. If I’m looking for a specific Scout Rifle, though, I know to scan all the Scout Rifle icons.

Lol!

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:42 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don't believe I've ever backed down. I've given numerous examples of why the UI's design hinders you. It does not clearly convey necessary information, and slows you down by showing unnecessary information in fancy ways.

That's your opinion (not a fact), and it's an opinion I strongly disagree with. I think it does a better job of showing necessary information at a glance than almost any other option I've seen for this kind of situation.

Whether or not it's efficient, I also take issue with the 'spectacle' comment; I feel that Bungie has done an admirable job of leaning towards functional, on the 'useful-to-just-for-show' scale.

In short: I think Mal's right, you've done a crappy job of supporting your initial claim, and almost all of your arguments SINCE that claim have been about ancillary subjects. :)

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 08:53 (286 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I don't believe I've ever backed down. I've given numerous examples of why the UI's design hinders you. It does not clearly convey necessary information, and slows you down by showing unnecessary information in fancy ways.


That's your opinion (not a fact)

Duh? Is that why he is reacting the way he is? Because he somehow thinks I'm stating a FACT? Why do we have to go through this again?

Given that, why is he saying I am 'wrong'? How can my opinion be wrong? It's a true fact that I think the interface could be better if it looked less pretty.

Lol!

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:10 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don't believe I've ever backed down. I've given numerous examples of why the UI's design hinders you. It does not clearly convey necessary information, and slows you down by showing unnecessary information in fancy ways.


That's your opinion (not a fact)


Duh? Is that why he is reacting the way he is? Because he somehow thinks I'm stating a FACT? Why do we have to go through this again?

Given that, why is he saying I am 'wrong'? How can my opinion be wrong? It's a true fact that I think the interface could be better if it looked less pretty.

The argument has never been that you're stating a fact. I said that because you keep reiterating it without actually backing it up - people arguing about opinions usually don't do that, they do that about facts. You're TREATING it like a fact (as though it doesn't need support), so I pointed out that it wasn't.

I guess I'd need you to explain what 'showing unnecessary information in fancy ways' means to you. I see almost nothing about the Inventory UI that I would class 'fancy' - it's all about as minimalist as you can get, imo. And NOTHING that I'm shown is 'unncessary' -- I can see at a glance what I've got, and the important features about each item, and I'm one trigger-pull away from secondary information if that glance isn't enough.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 11:19 (286 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I guess I'd need you to explain what 'showing unnecessary information in fancy ways' means to you.

If you think about computers, there is a reason that icons have a name under them. The name of the file you are looking for is the most important thing. It's literally why Photoshop's icon went form this:

[image]

To this:

[image]

PS. PhotoShop. It clears up any ambiguity. Especially in the Dock where the name is not displayed until you go over it. It's for clarity.

For me, with an inventory management system, the icon is a 'bonus'. What the item is is the most important. So for me, many screens in Destiny are filled with icons that say very little. If you want to know how far along you are on a quest or a catalyst, you have to put the cursor over the item (an some quests look the same!), whereas that could be displayed instead of or in addition to the icon.

Maybe I am just weird or something because I like relevant info at a glance.

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Lol!

by Harmanimus, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 11:29 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Just gonna say, Rebranding for Creative Cloud wasn’t because people couldn’t find their Photoshop icon.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 11:37 (286 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Just gonna say, Rebranding for Creative Cloud wasn’t because people couldn’t find their Photoshop icon.

I remember lots of people forgot what was what. I could not tell you what is what without mousing over. Which quill is Photoshop again? Oh shit, that's illustrator…

[image]

Lol!

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 11:45 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Maybe I am just weird or something because I like relevant info at a glance.

Nope - you just disagree with me (and with Bungie, apparently) about what information is the most relevant. (I'm not sure how a scrolling text list of items would help at all in your Masterwork example. However, I, too, wish that they'd come up with a more clever way to quickly show Catalyst progress.)

I think if you are saying that catalyst progress is THE most important thing about a weapon, then we wildly disagree.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:20 (286 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I think if you are saying that catalyst progress is THE most important thing about a weapon, then we wildly disagree.

I'd say the most important things at a glance are (in order):

1. Weapon Name
2. Light and Element
3. Perks / Mods selections
4. Weapon Stats / Masterworks

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Lol!

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:30 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think if you are saying that catalyst progress is THE most important thing about a weapon, then we wildly disagree.


I'd say the most important things at a glance are (in order):

1. Weapon Name
2. Light and Element
3. Perks / Mods selections
4. Weapon Stats / Masterworks

Huh, there are very few times where I've needed to know the name of a gun and those few times have come to 2 categories.

1. An Exotic
In which case I know exactly what it looks like by icon so I don't worry about it.

2. A legendary
This is the only real time it might help to have a name, but even so I know what type and class it is, so the chances there are more than at most 2 of those in my vault/inventory is very rare.

Lol!

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:50 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think if you are saying that catalyst progress is THE most important thing about a weapon, then we wildly disagree.


I'd say the most important things at a glance are (in order):

1. Weapon Name
2. Light and Element
3. Perks / Mods selections
4. Weapon Stats / Masterworks

I don't need to know perks and mods at a glance, ever.

I need to know weapon stats when I'm comparing two weapons, or (occasionally) when I'm choosing between two Masterworked versions of the same weapon (for example, I have a Better Devils with a Reload boost, and one with a Magazine boost; I use them for different things).

When I'm actively working on a Catalyst, knowing my progress is important - any other time, it's irrelevant. So... an hour (maybe 2) out of the life of a weapon. ('Actively working' means farming to finish it. My Crucible catalysts are not 'actively worked' - I simply use the weapon, and eventually the MW pops.)

For me, the important things at a glance are (in order):

Weapon Type
Element
Light Level
Name

What a weapon is called is FAR less important to me than what kind of weapon it is (Scout, Pulse, HC, etc).

Bungie's system works perfectly for me; I can see the first two things on my list without doing ANYTHING other than opening my character, I can get 3 with a trigger pull (for an entire category), and 4 by mousing over the icon.

If they found a way to unobtrusively show the catalyst value for that hour out of the gun's life, I'd call their system ideal.

Lol!

by Tails @, Across the Pond, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 13:49 (286 days ago) @ Claude Errera

For me, the important things at a glance are (in order):

Weapon Type
Element
Light Level
Name

Item rarity is another important detail that's also immediately communicated by the visuals :)

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+1

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 13:57 (286 days ago) @ Tails

I forgot to put that in my list too!

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Lol!

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:54 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think if you are saying that catalyst progress is THE most important thing about a weapon, then we wildly disagree.


I'd say the most important things at a glance are (in order):

1. Weapon Name
2. Light and Element
3. Perks / Mods selections
4. Weapon Stats / Masterworks

Where does weapon type fall into these categories? Or does your list method solve that problem another way?

My ranks would be:

1. Weapon Type & Element
2. Power Level & Name
3. Perks & Mods
4. Stats & Masterworks

Look at how close we are!

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Lol!

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:15 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I’ll agree that the Pursuits section is a really disappointing replacement for the Quests screen they introduced in The Taken King. Especially if we can assume that thing might be quite full in Forsaken.

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Lol!

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:21 (286 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’ll agree that the Pursuits section is a really disappointing replacement for the Quests screen they introduced in The Taken King. Especially if we can assume that thing might be quite full in Forsaken.

Didn't they explicitly state that the way quests are displayed and tracked is getting a giant overhaul in Forsaken?

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Questing UI

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 12:31 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I’ll agree that the Pursuits section is a really disappointing replacement for the Quests screen they introduced in The Taken King. Especially if we can assume that thing might be quite full in Forsaken.


Didn't they explicitly state that the way quests are displayed and tracked is getting a giant overhaul in Forsaken?

I think so. Which makes sense by the fact that they have slowly been adding quest-ish stuff back into the game.

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Lol!

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 14:21 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I had not heard that, but I sure hope so! Makes me wonder why they bothered adding Pursuits for two months, though.

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Lol!

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:20 (286 days ago) @ Cody Miller

You never once said consumables. You said “inventory.” Are weapons not a part of the player’s inventory, in the general sense of the word?

That’s always been your problem—you spew vague arguments and then pretend like it’s our fault we can’t keep up with your non-specific arguments.

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Lol!

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Wednesday, August 08, 2018, 09:31 (286 days ago) @ cheapLEY

You never once said consumables. You said “inventory.” Are weapons not a part of the player’s inventory, in the general sense of the word?

That’s always been your problem—you spew vague arguments and then pretend like it’s our fault we can’t keep up with your non-specific arguments.

He said it here:

"I am talking about consumables and things like that, as well as things like engrams. You still pick up engrams even when your inventory is full… they just go to the postmaster which is an extra step. Again, because there is only so much room on screen and everything must fit."

And then claimed I didn't read his words.

What he's doing is making a broad claim and then going further and further out on a limb in specificity until we get to nonsense considerations like "find X weapon in Y amount of time in the Vault", a completely meaningless use case that he believes props up whatever claim he was making about form over function.

All to try to legitimize the claim that Bungie's UI is all about "spectacle".

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