Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome (Destiny)

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 13:38 (2040 days ago)

Avatar

Ugh, I can't disagree more with this opinion piece

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 13:47 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

- No text -

Avatar

+1

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 13:52 (2040 days ago) @ Blackt1g3r

- No text -

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:17 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:22

I hope Bungie continues with this level of challenge and complexity into future raids.

Some folks in the Destiny community are angry at Bungie, and feel like the studio has made the raid too difficult for the average player.

Which is it? Is the raid challenging, or is it difficult? I wouldn't expect a games journalist to know the nuance of the difference.

Difficulty is straight up how hard something is. Lifting 10 pounds is more difficult than lifting 5. But it's basically the same thing… just harder. Challenge is about complexity. Playing a grandmaster is more challenging than playing an amateur; as he will be using more advanced moves, strategy, feints, etc. It's NOT basically the same thing.

Difficulty and Challenge can be linked. If you have to lift 3000 pounds, that's more difficult, but you'll have to get creative and lift it in a different way.

You need a mix of both, but I think challenge should be relied on more heavily, as it is more rewarding to overcome. Having everyone be too low a level is just difficulty…

In short, ask yourself how a player would overcome a problem. If the solution is within them (better strategy, more practice, etc) then that is good. If the solution is without them (power level number going up, a more powerful gun) then that is not as desirable.

Also there is zero reason why a 530 and a 560 version could not have been released at the same time… the hardcore players could chase the higher light version and still have the prestige, but the challenge could have still persisted between the two.

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 15:26 (2040 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In short, ask yourself how a player would overcome a problem. If the solution is within them (better strategy, more practice, etc) then that is good. If the solution is without them (power level number going up, a more powerful gun) then that is not as desirable.

Something to consider. "Cheezing" is basically the end-state of what you say is a better approach. Strategies that are just so much better than others that it becomes "the one way." That becomes very unfun in an activity that requires you to group up with 5 others; it increases the chances you'll be forced to conform to something that doesn't allow you to play the way you want to play. Difficulty is effectively a "cheez" deterrent. Not saying its a great one, but I think that's the argument for its presence.

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 15:53 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

In short, ask yourself how a player would overcome a problem. If the solution is within them (better strategy, more practice, etc) then that is good. If the solution is without them (power level number going up, a more powerful gun) then that is not as desirable.


Something to consider. "Cheezing" is basically the end-state of what you say is a better approach. Strategies that are just so much better than others that it becomes "the one way." That becomes very unfun in an activity that requires you to group up with 5 others; it increases the chances you'll be forced to conform to something that doesn't allow you to play the way you want to play. Difficulty is effectively a "cheez" deterrent. Not saying its a great one, but I think that's the argument for its presence.

Only an issue because rewards are extrinsic. Nobody would cheese if it meant making the game less fun.

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by EffortlessFury @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 18:08 (2040 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In short, ask yourself how a player would overcome a problem. If the solution is within them (better strategy, more practice, etc) then that is good. If the solution is without them (power level number going up, a more powerful gun) then that is not as desirable.


Something to consider. "Cheezing" is basically the end-state of what you say is a better approach. Strategies that are just so much better than others that it becomes "the one way." That becomes very unfun in an activity that requires you to group up with 5 others; it increases the chances you'll be forced to conform to something that doesn't allow you to play the way you want to play. Difficulty is effectively a "cheez" deterrent. Not saying its a great one, but I think that's the argument for its presence.


Only an issue because rewards are extrinsic. Nobody would cheese if it meant making the game less fun.

Honestly very untrue. "Cheezing" is its own form of fun for some.

But yes, the only reason it is a problem is because rewards are extrinsic. But that's the kind of game this is and that is never changing. So rather than dismiss by claiming it could be avoided by taking action no one is going to take...what action could be taken given that we actually have the issue?

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 19:50 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Take expected methodology in encounter completion and add additional rewards for not cheezing. Obviously, that is an extreme investment in testing.

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 23:02 (2040 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Take expected methodology in encounter completion and add additional rewards for not cheezing. Obviously, that is an extreme investment in testing.

If Bungie can track whether a cheese was used there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place. They could just put the game in a failure state if the game knew you just cheesed.

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 08:52 (2039 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wasn’t suggesting tracking a cheese. I was suggesting using a method similar to challenge modes to make not!cheese completions be more rewarding.

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 10:40 (2039 days ago) @ Harmanimus

I wasn’t suggesting tracking a cheese. I was suggesting using a method similar to challenge modes to make not!cheese completions be more rewarding.

Challenge modes are cheesed all the time. Gauntlet anyone? People will find the cheese!

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 11:09 (2039 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Well, given that the purpose of challenge modes wasn’t to counter cheesing, I doubt that they tested it with that purpose. Also instead of having one criteria or w/e for challenge mode you can have it be over the course of an encounter. And since it is just a bonus it won’t stop people from completing the encounter.

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 23:00 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

In short, ask yourself how a player would overcome a problem. If the solution is within them (better strategy, more practice, etc) then that is good. If the solution is without them (power level number going up, a more powerful gun) then that is not as desirable.


Something to consider. "Cheezing" is basically the end-state of what you say is a better approach. Strategies that are just so much better than others that it becomes "the one way." That becomes very unfun in an activity that requires you to group up with 5 others; it increases the chances you'll be forced to conform to something that doesn't allow you to play the way you want to play. Difficulty is effectively a "cheez" deterrent. Not saying its a great one, but I think that's the argument for its presence.


Only an issue because rewards are extrinsic. Nobody would cheese if it meant making the game less fun.


Honestly very untrue. "Cheezing" is its own form of fun for some.

How does that contradict what I said in the last sentence?

Avatar

Polygon Opinion Piece: Raid Difficulty is Awesome

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 16:07 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

That makes zero sense at all. Difficulty actively encourages cheesing, as people seek the absolute easiest way to get through an encounter. As someone who did Leviathan more than a handful of times on both consoles, the strategies were wildly different for each group. That’s because the encounters allowed for variety and multiple solutions.

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by digital_ronin, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:21 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury
edited by digital_ronin, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:29

For all the wonderful things in Forsaken, I'm a little worried about the nature of the raids. Raids were one of my favorite activities in Destiny 1. In Destiny 2, they are starting to lose me.

The artificial difficulty based on light level is one problem. The fact that the people who actually cleared the raid used the prime engram exploit, the one thing Bungie was "punishing" people over, is quite telling. I've only gotten one Eater of Worlds clear due to a dwindling player population. Just a month after launch, when those still playing in my clan were high enough level to clear the raid, there weren't many people left interested in playing. It makes me wonder who the audience of this game really is? Is it an enthusiast like me or the hard core, content creators, and twitch viewers?

Then there are the more unforgiving mechanics. A system the enforces mistake free play rather than exciting strategies or creative problem solving. The token revive system would force wipes due to circumstance ("Sorry, I know I'm right next to you, but I can't revive you again.") Combined with really tight timing in places like the Spire of Stars (which I still haven't cleared) and my clan went from running sherpa raids in D1 to having set raid groups. They regrettably didn't want to allow new people in because it was just a pain trying to take a weak player through the raid and were lucky to have consistent clears themselves.

Raids are one of the unique things to Destiny. To slowly alienate a large portion of the enthusiast community to appease the content creators is a self defeating strategy. Eventually the casuals will leave, then the enthusiasts, and then content creators complain and leave because they have no audience.

There is nothing wrong with having difficult endgame content, but it must be approachable. Most enthusiasts aren't trying to be world's first, but they do want to get a raid clear and make it a fun part of their weekly ritual. It's the whole idea of having a normal raid for the enthusiast community and a prestiege for the hard core community. Remember when you got a raid down and you could chat about other things and joke instead of telling people to be quiet to hear the call outs?

Avatar

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:29 (2040 days ago) @ digital_ronin

The artificial difficulty based on light level is one problem. I've only gotten one Eater of Worlds clear due to a dwindling player population just a month after launch, when those still playing in my clan were high enough level to clear the raid.

What platform are you on? You could always join DBO. We enjoy raids!

The fact that the people who actually cleared the raid used the prime engram exploit, the one thing Bungie was "punishing" people over is quite telling. It makes me wonder who the audience of this game really is? Is it an enthusiast like me or the hard core, content creators, and twitch viewers?

What is the prime engram exploit? It's a way to get lots of prime engrams? How is it done? Asking for a friend.

Raids are one of the unique things to Destiny. To slowly alienate a large portion of the enthusiast community to appease the content creators is a self defeating strategy. Eventually the casuals will leave, then the enthusiasts, and then content creators complain and leave because they have no audience.

I distinctly remember Luke Smith talking about how only 25% of people completed a raid in Destiny prior to Des2ny's release. They wanted that number higher. So why the change? Again, the solution is staring them right in the face: multiple light level difficulties!

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by digital_ronin, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:36 (2040 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What platform are you on? You could always join DBO. We enjoy raids!

PS4. I'm lucky to have a team that raids most Friday nights, but life means I can't raid every week. Anyone if free to friend me on PSN, I'm Digital_Ronin there, just put DBO in the message.

What is the prime engram exploit? It's a way to get lots of prime engrams? How is it done? Asking for a friend.

There was a way of keeping around the prime engram buff by not picking up engrams. One of the Dreaming City lost sectors had a pretty high chance of dropping a prime engram. So teams would run it to the boss, kill it. Possible get a prime engram and then wipe/reset it and do it again. Eventually they would build up a pool of prime engrams to turn in bumping up their light level faster.

I distinctly remember Luke Smith talking about how only 25% of people completed a raid in Destiny prior to Des2ny's release. They wanted that number higher. So why the change? Again, the solution is staring them right in the face: multiple light level difficulties!

I don't get this either. I remember the feedback about wanting to keep escalation protocol relevant after warmind. So what did they do, artificial difficulty through light level increase. Huh? That doesn't make sense. Attaching a powerful reward to it, sure. Updating it to provide year 2 gear, that works too.

Avatar

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:39 (2040 days ago) @ digital_ronin

What platform are you on? You could always join DBO. We enjoy raids!


PS4. I'm lucky to have a team that raids most Friday nights, but life means I can't raid every week. Anyone if free to friend me on PSN, I'm Digital_Ronin there, just put DBO in the message.

D_P_Roberts

We could use more people after SOME OF US abandoned PS4 for suxxbox. :-p

Avatar

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 16:22 (2040 days ago) @ Cody Miller

*Bestbox

Ftfy

I’m on PC anyway

Avatar

Raid Difficulty is... Troubling

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 15:16 (2040 days ago) @ digital_ronin

What is the prime engram exploit? It's a way to get lots of prime engrams? How is it done? Asking for a friend.


There was a way of keeping around the prime engram buff by not picking up engrams. One of the Dreaming City lost sectors had a pretty high chance of dropping a prime engram. So teams would run it to the boss, kill it. Possible get a prime engram and then wipe/reset it and do it again. Eventually they would build up a pool of prime engrams to turn in bumping up their light level faster.

From Bungie, Quote...

Prime Engrams: An exploit was discovered this weekend where players could earn Prime Engrams at a rapid pace using the Prime Attunement buff. At this time, Prime Engrams are designed to grant small power gains over time. Acquiring large amounts of Prime Engrams in a short timeframe reduces the frequency in which you earn Prime Engrams as you continue to play the game. Some players who have used this exploit heavily may find that Prime Engrams will not appear for the next two to three weeks.

As such, this will provide a very small short-term gain for those using this exploit, but have negative long-term effects for a player’s power progression. We are investigating a fix for this exploit. In the meantime, we highly recommend that players do not use this exploit.

Players who are earning Prime Engrams while playing through the game naturally will not be impacted by this issue in any form.

Avatar

I think I agree.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 14:50 (2040 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Even though I'll personally suffer (sounds like no backpacks will be available).

I'm not reading any more of this kind of thing though. That came perilously close to spoiling my blind status.

I as well

by TheeChaos @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 15:05 (2040 days ago) @ Kermit

While I do understand the Blind raiders got some things spoiled by Bungie, I agree. Nothing felt better than slugging through Taken King. As a Hunter I could only take 1.5 boomer shots. But we still managed to beat the raid, underleveled and underprepapred. It was a great feeling. Much better than being carried through VOG my first time because I actually had to work for it and was part of the team that came up with solutions together. To me it adds a level of complexity vs just OMG I KEEP GETTING KILLED THIS RAIDS TOO HIGH. Granted, I have probably said that before, I still feel like its another mechanic. I don't care about being worlds first, or even spoilers. I care about a good challenge thats going to feel rewarding at the end of it. That way when I get another Edge Transit after the boss, I won't feel as bad.

Avatar

I think I agree.

by Funkmon @, Tuesday, September 18, 2018, 19:57 (2040 days ago) @ Kermit

I hear there's a boss at the end.

Avatar

I think I agree.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, September 19, 2018, 07:11 (2039 days ago) @ Funkmon

I hear there's a boss at the end.

F*cker.

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread