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Actual fun in crucible (sometimes) (Destiny)

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 07:26 (138 days ago)

Been (forced) playing a bit of crucible for the Last Word quest and I had some fun moments good and bad.

Rooted to the spot from an amazing (lucky?) shield bounce.

When a terribly misjudged shoulder charge turns into a hilariously well placed suicide grenade.

Out of the Nova pan and into the fire(d) bullet to the face.

I know they need to tune shoulder charging hit boxes, but I think this guy teleported...

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Actual fun in crucible (sometimes)

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 07:28 (138 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Been (forced) playing a bit of crucible for the Last Word quest and I had some fun moments good and bad.

Rooted to the spot from an amazing (lucky?) shield bounce.

When a terribly misjudged shoulder charge turns into a hilariously well placed suicide grenade.

Out of the Nova pan and into the fire(d) bullet to the face.

I know they need to tune shoulder charging hit boxes, but I think this guy teleported...

In that last one, I swear it looks like your initial lunge launches them physically away from you...

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Shoulder charge

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 07:34 (138 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I know they need to tune shoulder charging hit boxes, but I think this guy teleported...


In that last one, I swear it looks like your initial lunge launches them physically away from you...

I honestly don't know how shoulder charge misses sometimes... Sometimes it veers off to the side of the person like above. Other times it just goes right through them. It doesn't happen a ton, but enough to really annoy you in a game.

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Shoulder charge

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 08:25 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I know they need to tune shoulder charging hit boxes, but I think this guy teleported...


In that last one, I swear it looks like your initial lunge launches them physically away from you...


I honestly don't know how shoulder charge misses sometimes... Sometimes it veers off to the side of the person like above. Other times it just goes right through them. It doesn't happen a ton, but enough to really annoy you in a game.

I've had plenty where it just displaces them slightly (such as at 1:49 in this video, where the Titan shoulder charges me, and I just get nudged back while taking zero damage), and others where it launches them back across the room. It's a crapshoot sometimes, but at least it's 80% reliable!

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Shoulder charge

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 08:40 (137 days ago) @ Korny

I honestly don't know how shoulder charge misses sometimes... Sometimes it veers off to the side of the person like above. Other times it just goes right through them. It doesn't happen a ton, but enough to really annoy you in a game.


I've had plenty where it just displaces them slightly (such as at 1:49 in this video, where the Titan shoulder charges me, and I just get nudged back while taking zero damage), and others where it launches them back across the room. It's a crapshoot sometimes, but at least it's 80% reliable!

Yeah, that's about how I feel. It's solid about 80% of the time. It's that other 20% that is infuriating.

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Shoulder charge

by Blackt1g3r @, Login is from an untrusted domain in MN, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 09:50 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I'm not sure what they changed about shoulder charge, but I swear I missed about half of mine last night where I was either just short or it just didn't connect when expected. More so than usual anyway. Maybe I was just having a bad night.

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Thanks to Unoudid, Claude, and Company...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 09:44 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

...also, why did nobody tell me I'd accidentally selected the Competitive playlist?! I was shocked when I looked up our history this morning and realized what I'd done to us!

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 13:27 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

... running up against squads of early Last Word adopters who were hoping to wreck shop, and blowing them away with my Luna's Howl ;p

I ended up completing the quest myself last night, and I'm quite surprised by how mediocre it feels. Messed around with it for a few minutes, then threw it in the vault. Oh well :-/

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 13:28 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

... running up against squads of early Last Word adopters who were hoping to wreck shop, and blowing them away with my Luna's Howl ;p

I ended up completing the quest myself last night, and I'm quite surprised by how mediocre it feels. Messed around with it for a few minutes, then threw it in the vault. Oh well :-/

Well, compared to Luna's Howl, I'm sure it doesn't really feel like much. I kinda wish Luna's Howl was restricted to competitive. I might actually enjoy PvP more.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 14:20 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

... running up against squads of early Last Word adopters who were hoping to wreck shop, and blowing them away with my Luna's Howl ;p

I ended up completing the quest myself last night, and I'm quite surprised by how mediocre it feels. Messed around with it for a few minutes, then threw it in the vault. Oh well :-/


Well, compared to Luna's Howl, I'm sure it doesn't really feel like much. I kinda wish Luna's Howl was restricted to competitive. I might actually enjoy PvP more.

Luna’s Howl is definitely a top-tier weapon, but it isn’t as unstoppable as people make it out to be (not it my hands, at least). I frequently lose 1v1s to Trust, Ace of Spades, Bygones, certain sidearms... Luna has a range-window in which it is absolutely deadly, but just slightly outside of that sweet spot, its effectiveness falls off drastically.

Regarding TLW, there’s a lot of chatter over on Reddit about just how poor it feels and performs on console (seems to be great on PC). Lots of people who are comparing it to the PC version are pointing out that the bloom effect (which apparently doesn’t exist on PC?) causes your bullets to land inconsistently, even within optimal range. I was never great with TLW in D1, but last night I found it way harder than I remember it being to land hits, even on big targets, even at close range. It’s too soon to say for sure, but my impression so far is that TLW is underwhelming at best. Hopefully it’ll get tweaked in the near future so that it can feel a little more special.

(It sure is fun watching it spin around, though. I missed that animation).

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 14:38 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'm not convinced anything is wrong. The Last Word varied in its deadliness in D1 by quite a bit. It did a good job killing me last night but wasn't unstoppable. I think it's just a short range weapon and people are wanting it to kill at any range. At least give the community more than a handful of hours to actually get a feel for it.

(If the comparison really is to the PC version were everything is far more accurate... then, meh. The Last Word should should be good, not laser accurate. If it is that way on PC for some reason then the PC version is broken. I'm not sure Reddit understands the concept of something being overpowered.)

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:04 (137 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I'm not convinced anything is wrong. The Last Word varied in its deadliness in D1 by quite a bit. It did a good job killing me last night but wasn't unstoppable. I think it's just a short range weapon and people are wanting it to kill at any range. At least give the community more than a handful of hours to actually get a feel for it.

(If the comparison really is to the PC version were everything is far more accurate... then, meh. The Last Word should should be good, not laser accurate. If it is that way on PC for some reason then the PC version is broken. I'm not sure Reddit understands the concept of something being overpowered.)

I think there are 3 distinct issues:

1) People feel like TLW in D2 isn’t as strong or effective as it was in D1 (I personally am fine with this)

2) TLW on console seems to be demonstrably inferior to its PC counterpart

3) TLW on console does not perform at a level where the serious PvP crowd feels it competes with the other PvP favourite weapons.

I know it’s easy to dismiss whining and complaining, but when the community on Reddit is this united about something, they’re usually right. (Heck, many of us were saying after 1 or 2 crucible matches that Nova Warp was too strong... sometimes these things are obvious).
I’m absolutely not setting my opinions in stone, but my early impression is that it feels really bad to use. I’m sure there are players who will like it, and some might even be quite effective with it. I’m not saying “it needs to change” or anything like that. For me, it was a letdown after so much hype and it’s own unique quest. No big deal.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Harmanimus, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 16:58 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Everything to do with accuracy and recoil mechanisms are completely different in feel/design on PC compared to console. I’m not surprised this is no different. Back when I was playing on console I thought D2’s recoil and accuracy mechanics were goofed. So that was October of 2016. I haven’t been back to see if anything was addressed, but if it hasn’t been I could imagine a weapon like TLW feeling terrible.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 17:33 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I know it’s easy to dismiss whining and complaining, but when the community on Reddit is this united about something, they’re usually right.

I strongly disagree. Reddit is why Destiny 2 is like it is today. A game tuned for overly fast gameplay and time to kill and a game that demands far more of my time to simply play new content than I'm willing to give. And Nova Warp?! Is the most extreme of extreme edge cases. I'd be like someone denying the power of the un-nerfed Sunbreaker Titan back in the Destiny 1 glory days.

I find that, in general, Reddit want every single thing to kill faster no matter what.

I jumped in with The Last Word just now, and I'm not at all sure what people are expecting. I got a decent 17 kills vs a team that was generally outplaying my randos. It is decent at short range, useless at long range, but it felt... good. I beat a shotgun slider 2 out of 3 times we clashed. I pulled off a midrange 8 shot kill against someone who was ducking to and fro around a corner. I can't kill people across the map, but so what?! It's a close range gun that hits surprisingly hard with surprising ease when you trust the hip fire.

Played another game and did well with cloaking and The Last Word. Again. It worked well. 24 kills. My K/D was a little lower than normal for various reasons (my Hunter build SUCKS and hasn't been touched since pre-Forsaken so I never have any abilities ready when I need them) but The Last Word did well by me.

The only issue I had, really, was that shotguns are strong at _midrange_ and utterly dominate close range, all to the point that using ANY gun other than a shotgun at those ranges becomes very tough. And for that, I blame Reddit.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 18:37 (137 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I jumped in with The Last Word just now, and I'm not at all sure what people are expecting.

They're expecting The Last Word to give them a reason to use something else besides Trust or Luna's Howl. It doesn't seem like it's doing that.

That's hearsay, of course, I haven't even started the quest yet (I hope you guys are still up for some Crucible this weekend!).

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:15 (137 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I know it’s easy to dismiss whining and complaining, but when the community on Reddit is this united about something, they’re usually right.


I strongly disagree. Reddit is why Destiny 2 is like it is today.

You mean fun and dynamic with exciting guns and powerful abilities, rather than the bland, watered-down combat D2 launched with? ;p

I’m being snarky (in a good humoured way), but I do mean it. I find Destiny 2’s gameplay far more enjoyable now than it was at launch.

A game tuned for overly fast gameplay and time to kill and a game that demands far more of my time to simply play new content than I'm willing to give. And Nova Warp?! Is the most extreme of extreme edge cases. I'd be like someone denying the power of the un-nerfed Sunbreaker Titan back in the Destiny 1 glory days.

Overly fast gameplay? D2 is still slow by modern FPS standards.

The time-sink? I’m with you there. I’m not at all thrilled with how time demanding the game is now. BUT, I do appreciate the breadth of things to do, and the variety of great gear to chase.

Yes, nova warp is an obvious case. But for many players, especially PvP-focused players who are very familiar with TLW in D1, the mediocrity of the D2 version is equally obvious.


I find that, in general, Reddit want every single thing to kill faster no matter what.

I disagree, but that’s fine.


I jumped in with The Last Word just now, and I'm not at all sure what people are expecting. I got a decent 17 kills vs a team that was generally outplaying my randos. It is decent at short range, useless at long range, but it felt... good. I beat a shotgun slider 2 out of 3 times we clashed. I pulled off a midrange 8 shot kill against someone who was ducking to and fro around a corner. I can't kill people across the map, but so what?! It's a close range gun that hits surprisingly hard with surprising ease when you trust the hip fire.

That’s easy... people are expecting/hoping that it will feel and function like the gun they used in D1. And what they got is a version of TLW that is nerfed to the point that most serious crucible players feel like they’d be at a disadvantage if they used it in the crucible in place of their usual guns. But more than that, the fact that the gun is SO GOOD on PC is making some people feel like the problem is not TLW itself, but rather how bloom and recoil mechanics work on console, which is another issue that many hardcore PvP players have been talking about for months.

Personally, I don’t really care. I was never a huge fan of TLW. But I understand where the disappointment is coming from. TLW was one of THE BEST crucible weapons in D1. It’s expected and reasonable for TLW fans to be excited to get their hands back on the gun, and then to feel a little let down by its mediocre state on consoles. None of that is unfair or unreasonable.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:29 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by cheapLEY, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:36

The time-sink? I’m with you there. I’m not at all thrilled with how time demanding the game is nown by its mediocre state on consoles. None of that is unfair or unreasonable.

I'm theoretically with you, too, but is it even that demanding of time now? Forsaken was admittedly pretty bad in that regard once you hit the soft cap. But I hit 650 the second week of Black Armory, without playing multiple characters, and without really grinding.

I guess how each individual defines "grinding" comes into play there, though.

EDIT: Okay, I guess it's still a fair point. I just checked my play time with that heat map thing, and it looks like I played a bit over 40 hours during those first two weeks of Black Armory. That's a lot of game time.

I still stand by the fact that none of it was grinding, though. (:

I'm with you, Cruel. This is literally the best Destiny has ever felt to play. Crucible its particularly good right now, I think. There's a huge variety of viable weapons. I a ton of diversity in loadouts in terms of both weapons and subclasses in use. The balance between gunplay and ability uptime feels really good, I think.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 22:24 (137 days ago) @ cheapLEY

...but is it even that demanding of time now?

I think it absolutely is. When Black Armory came out and I didn't have a chance in hell of coming close to beating the first forge even though I'd put in a ton of hours into the game all throughout Warmind and Forsaken... I just put down my controller and walked away. The bias towards players who can afford to literally play all day and against someone like me who played for several hours most nights is just bewildering.

The back to back week one release of the Raids (and the larger than ever emphasis on World's First) \ already had me burnt out on raising my Power Level up as quickly as possible. thoruhg Releasing new content where everything was locked behind a challenge that I reached within two hours but had no chance of beating for around two weeks? That was it. I was, and still am, done.

I already addressed a bunch of my PvP complaints. For PvE, I want to see some recognition that not everyone reaches a Raid ready level in 4 days. I want difficulty levels or content that starts beatable for most any player and then scales up from there but only to provide additional challenge. I want something like where new content/seasons alternate between raising the power level and letting me enjoy the game without having to suffer through taking 200% extra damage for a couple of weeks.

I love Destiny's story, but I am more glad than ever that I don't have to play the game to read the deepest lore.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 22:08 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

You mean fun and dynamic with exciting guns and powerful abilities, rather than the bland, watered-down combat D2 launched with? ;p

I like some of the changes made in the past year/year and a half. There was a bit too much of everyone pinging back and forth at each other from across the map without any kills. But my solution would have been to ramp up grenades a bit so that they were deadly enough to break up clumps of players. Instead, we're back to Destiny 1 gameplay where I get killed by special weapons more than primary weapons. By bringing back things like shotguns and cramming every fusion rifle into the special slot, Bungie has broken what I thought was an extremely well balanced sandbox.

Now, weapons like SMGs are pointless because that is prime shotgun range. Weapons like The Last Word barely have enough range to challenge the shotguns. And we have bunches of players running around with Telesto and Jotunn, which are so firmly power weapons that I can't understand why people get to respawn with two shots in them.

And then there was the change from 3 hit melee kills back to two. I hate that. With three hits to kill there was strategy. You could fail to land the first punch but still eek out a victory by switching to a close ranged weapon. Or, you could sometimes follow up an exchange of gunfire with a melee to get a quicker kill. By changing that, Bungie broke the lower Striker build (what's the point of the long range melee after breaking their shields anymore?) and broke my favorite armor ACD/0 Feedback Fence (which went from being a viable option to one that almost never changes the outcome of a battle) and generally makes it so that whoever punches first wins with very little tactical options.

But more than that, the fact that the gun is SO GOOD on PC...

I get extremely wary when pro players start talking this way. It means that they are about to demand something be changed significantly. For the worse. So, next stop is The Last Word being the most powerful PvP gun in the game, I guess...

but rather how bloom and recoil mechanics work on console, which is another issue that many hardcore PvP players have been talking about for months.

I'm having flashbacks to the way "hardcore PvP players" completely ruined Halo Reach's PvP. If the next demand coming down from Holy Reddit is that bloom and recoil should go away then I will never touch the Crucible again. I've played a version of Destiny where Hand Cannons could hit from across the map and were more useful at range than even Scout Rifles. Let's please not go back to that.

At the end of the day, I am sick and tired of this new attitude of nothing but buffs. There has to be some point where things have been taken too far, where the game is playing too fast. But, aside from the occasional outright broken weapon (Sleeper in Gambit) or crazy overpowered Super (Nova Warp) the constant drum beat is for lower TTK, less recoil, faster player movement, less player health. Enough already!

The grind has already driven me away from Destiny PvE. After I hit the wall of Black Armory I decided to do other things than beat my head against Destiny's Power Level insanity. Now, it sounds like I'm about to being driven out of the only multiplayer FPS I have ever actually enjoyed! :(

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 23:01 (137 days ago) @ Ragashingo

There’s a lot in your post that I agree with :)
I don’t have time to go through it all point by point right now, but I did want to address this specific thought:

At the end of the day, I am sick and tired of this new attitude of nothing but buffs. There has to be some point where things have been taken too far, where the game is playing too fast. But, aside from the occasional outright broken weapon (Sleeper in Gambit) or crazy overpowered Super (Nova Warp) the constant drum beat is for lower TTK, less recoil, faster player movement, less player health. Enough already!

I don’t think that’s an accurate assessment of what is happening. We need to remember that when D2 launched, there were many areas of the game that were changed in a way that made players feel weaker and less effective. A lot of the talk we see now from players hoping for buffs is aimed towards getting D2 back up to the balance of mechanics that we had in D1.

This video does a decent job of illustrating how weapons in D2 perform objectively worse on console than they do on PC, while also comparing D2 mechanics like recoil and flinch to the same mechanics in D1. Some of the differences are minor, others more drastic, and D2 console is on the losing end of pretty much every single comparison. So I don’t think it’s fair to claim that the vocal fans on Reddit are trying to get everything in D2 buffed into the stratosphere. I think most of them would be happy if their weapons felt as effective as they did in D1.

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I had a good time yesterday, too...

by Harmanimus, Thursday, January 31, 2019, 11:19 (136 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

A lot of the talk we see now from players hoping for buffs is aimed towards getting D2 back up to the balance of mechanics that we had in D1.

I don’t think this can be stated enough. I do disagree that D2 is currently the best Destiny has ever been (D1Y3 still holds that crown) and definitely don’t want everything to swing to excessive power. Things that get brought down have traditionally needed it, though sometimes they are brought down too far. But Vanilla D2 sundered eveything and we’ve been inchhing back up.

This discussions a broader need to mix up the meta to greater degrees (Sidearms and SMGs should both have a longer range of potential effectiveness, Auto Rifles should poke farther into the core Pulse ranges more reliably) so that the close range is somewhat less crowded. But the follow up to that is that Bungie leaned so far away from what made Destiny stand out (abilities) and still hasn’t gotten back to them in the broad sense they need to.

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But did you read the lore entries?

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:24 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I ended up completing the quest myself last night, and I'm quite surprised by how mediocre it feels. Messed around with it for a few minutes, then threw it in the vault. Oh well :-/

Me too. A bit underwhelming. But the letters from Shin and the letter from Jaren? Those were excellent.

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But did you read the lore entries?

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 15:44 (137 days ago) @ Robot Chickens

I ended up completing the quest myself last night, and I'm quite surprised by how mediocre it feels. Messed around with it for a few minutes, then threw it in the vault. Oh well :-/


Me too. A bit underwhelming. But the letters from Shin and the letter from Jaren? Those were excellent.

Yeah, I like that aspect of the quest a lot :)

Last Night proved...

by CougRon, Auburn, WA, USA, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 17:25 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

... I’m never going to get the last word unless I get seriously carried. For every kill I’d make it seemed I would be killed 4-5 times or more. It’s nearly impossible for me to get those +2-1 quests done. Wanted to team up but everyone else on was on full teams or committed to other things.

Wonder if I can pay a local teen to play as me...

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Last Night proved...

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 18:38 (137 days ago) @ CougRon

... I’m never going to get the last word unless I get seriously carried. For every kill I’d make it seemed I would be killed 4-5 times or more. It’s nearly impossible for me to get those +2-1 quests done. Wanted to team up but everyone else on was on full teams or committed to other things.

Wonder if I can pay a local teen to play as me...

I'll be working on the quest this weekend, I think. If I see you on, I'll shoot you an invite.

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Last Night proved...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:27 (137 days ago) @ cheapLEY

... I’m never going to get the last word unless I get seriously carried. For every kill I’d make it seemed I would be killed 4-5 times or more. It’s nearly impossible for me to get those +2-1 quests done. Wanted to team up but everyone else on was on full teams or committed to other things.

Wonder if I can pay a local teen to play as me...


I'll be working on the quest this weekend, I think. If I see you on, I'll shoot you an invite.

If you guys need a teammate, feel free to send me an invite!

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Last Night proved...

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:38 (137 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I'll be working on the quest this weekend, I think. If I see you on, I'll shoot you an invite.


If you guys need a teammate, feel free to send me an invite!

I absolutely will, if your back feels up to carrying all that weight! (:

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Last Night proved...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, January 31, 2019, 05:38 (137 days ago) @ CougRon

... I’m never going to get the last word unless I get seriously carried. For every kill I’d make it seemed I would be killed 4-5 times or more. It’s nearly impossible for me to get those +2-1 quests done. Wanted to team up but everyone else on was on full teams or committed to other things.

Wonder if I can pay a local teen to play as me...

I'm in the same boat. Ottermack earned my one last word for me at a LAN.

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Last Night proved...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 13:37 (116 days ago) @ Kermit

... I’m never going to get the last word unless I get seriously carried. For every kill I’d make it seemed I would be killed 4-5 times or more. It’s nearly impossible for me to get those +2-1 quests done. Wanted to team up but everyone else on was on full teams or committed to other things.

Wonder if I can pay a local teen to play as me...


I'm in the same boat. Ottermack earned my one last word for me at a LAN.

Correction: Ottermack reminded me that Thorn was the weapon he earned for me. The Last Word used to be a drop.

Last Night proved...

by Oholiab, Thursday, January 31, 2019, 06:06 (137 days ago) @ CougRon

Count me in the crowd who needs a hand. After one game with Junior, I’m at 7%.

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A Rapture Reminder...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, February 20, 2019, 13:50 (116 days ago) @ Oholiab

Count me in the crowd who needs a hand. After one game with Junior, I’m at 7%.

Anyone who needs any +1k/d Crucible quests, I’m always happy to log into your account to knock them out on most evenings.

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 20:56 (137 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, January 30, 2019, 21:43 (137 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Looks fun! Can't wait to get my hands on it!

I'll admit, though, that I didn't see anything there that my Opening Shot, Hip Fire Grip with Freehand mod wouldn't have done just as well.

The thing has really good accuracy from the hip, so much so that Trust has become my panic weapon. I just whip it out and start shooting without aiming down sights, and it still destroys. I put Freehand Grip on it for extra hip fire accuracy. It's not quite The Last Word, but damn is it close.

I look forward to seeing which is better, to be honest.

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 01, 2019, 16:45 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I don't watch very many Destiny YouTube videos, but I came across this one and really appreciated the gameplay and the meta commentary. This is basically my exact position as stated by someone who plays the game a good level better than I do:

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by cheapLEY @, Friday, February 01, 2019, 16:59 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I don't watch very many Destiny YouTube videos, but I came across this one and really appreciated the gameplay and the meta commentary. This is basically my exact position as stated by someone who plays the game a good level better than I do:

I liked that video. He made great points. People trying to use The Last Word to outgun a Not Forgotten are dumb, period. That's not the point of the gun. It'd be like trying to outgun a Not Forgotten at range with a sidearm. It's silly.

I still don't have it, so I can't really comment on how it feels.

I do think worrying about that it's better on PC than it is on console is silly. This game doesn't have crossplay, so who gives a shit what it feels like on PC? They're two entirely different platforms with ostensibly different balance considerations.

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, February 01, 2019, 18:14 (135 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don't watch very many Destiny YouTube videos, but I came across this one and really appreciated the gameplay and the meta commentary. This is basically my exact position as stated by someone who plays the game a good level better than I do:


I liked that video. He made great points. People trying to use The Last Word to outgun a Not Forgotten are dumb, period. That's not the point of the gun. It'd be like trying to outgun a Not Forgotten at range with a sidearm. It's silly.

I still don't have it, so I can't really comment on how it feels.

I do think worrying about that it's better on PC than it is on console is silly. This game doesn't have crossplay, so who gives a shit what it feels like on PC? They're two entirely different platforms with ostensibly different balance considerations.

It’s an issue of intent vs execution, plus a plain simple question of fun. Console players are watching PC streamers have loads of fun with a weapon that simply doesn’t work the same way on console. All the jumping through hoops to defend the Last Word is silly, and dismisses the fact that it is neither fun nor satisfying to point your gun straight at a target, pull the trigger, and have your shot miss due to inconsistent shooting mechanics.

As far as the video itself goes, I’m not the first one to point out that he is an absolute top-tier player, so watching him win a few gunfights with TLW isn’t disproving anyone’s complaints. It simply is not the gun that it was in D1. The D2 PC version is, however (or at least close enough to make fans of TLW happy).

I found this video far more helpful, and a more honest representation of the weapon. He shows how TLW can be very effective, but stresses how difficult it is to use properly, and explains some very specific techniques he’s developed to mitigate the recoil;

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 01, 2019, 18:35 (135 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

All the jumping through hoops to defend the Last Word is silly...

No... Just no. If a straight forward video saying the gun is excellent counts as jumping through hoops then we're not even on the same continent in terms of discussing the gun or the game. Different points of view and all that? Sure, let's be charitable, call it that, and agree to very strongly disagree.

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, February 01, 2019, 18:52 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

All the jumping through hoops to defend the Last Word is silly...

No... Just no. If a straight forward video saying the gun is excellent counts as jumping through hoops then we're not even on the same continent in terms of discussing the gun or the game. Different points of view and all that? Sure, let's be charitable, call it that, and agree to very strongly disagree.

It is silly because it totally strawmans the complaints many people have about the gun (hence my “jumping through hoops” comment). TLW in D2 does not have the consistent and reliable accuracy that it had it D1. Plain and simple. That doesn’t mean it’s trash, nor does it mean that some players wont enjoy it and do well with it. It’s like you’re straining to avoid seeing my point here. People expect X, they’re given Y, and are disappointed because they were looking forward to X. And before you roll out the usual “let’s blame the community for having unfair expectations” trope, remember that the whole point of bringing back an iconic D1 weapon is to capitalize on the community’s love for that weapon, which is directly tied to how that weapon performed in D1. So yes, players were justified in expecting D2’s Last Word to live up to D1’s Last Word. And it simply doesn’t. There’s no debating that.

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The Last Word. (Mine, not yours...)

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, February 02, 2019, 00:46 (135 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

So yes, players were justified in expecting D2’s Last Word to live up to D1’s Last Word. And it simply doesn’t. There’s no debating that.

"And it simply doesn't" is merely an opinion. One that is clearly not shared by everyone. Some people think Bungie nailed it. Some people think that buffing The Last Word any further would make it game breaking. The person in the video you linked to expressed both of those things.

So, give us a break on this whole "And it simply doesn't" crap. Because for some people, myself included, it simply did.

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After watching your video...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 01, 2019, 19:00 (135 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Friday, February 01, 2019, 19:15

I don't watch very many Destiny YouTube videos, but I came across this one and really appreciated the gameplay and the meta commentary. This is basically my exact position as stated by someone who plays the game a good level better than I do:


I liked that video. He made great points. People trying to use The Last Word to outgun a Not Forgotten are dumb, period. That's not the point of the gun. It'd be like trying to outgun a Not Forgotten at range with a sidearm. It's silly.

I still don't have it, so I can't really comment on how it feels.

I do think worrying about that it's better on PC than it is on console is silly. This game doesn't have crossplay, so who gives a shit what it feels like on PC? They're two entirely different platforms with ostensibly different balance considerations.


It’s an issue of intent vs execution, plus a plain simple question of fun. Console players are watching PC streamers have loads of fun with a weapon that simply doesn’t work the same way on console. All the jumping through hoops to defend the Last Word is silly, and dismisses the fact that it is neither fun nor satisfying to point your gun straight at a target, pull the trigger, and have your shot miss due to inconsistent shooting mechanics.

As far as the video itself goes, I’m not the first one to point out that he is an absolute top-tier player, so watching him win a few gunfights with TLW isn’t disproving anyone’s complaints. It simply is not the gun that it was in D1. The D2 PC version is, however (or at least close enough to make fans of TLW happy).

I found this video far more helpful, and a more honest representation of the weapon. He shows how TLW can be very effective, but stresses how difficult it is to use properly, and explains some very specific techniques he’s developed to mitigate the recoil;

Ok... I had to come back to this after watching your video... It almost uniformly paints the Destiny 2 console version of The Last Word as a top tier powerful hand cannon that takes a bit to get used to but is powerful to use and very powerful when paired with a high impact weapon like a sniper rifle or bow. The author makes the point that The Last Word does as much damage and has the same kill time as Thunderlord. He calls it a "direct counter" to pinnacle weapons like Luna's Howl. He is very nearly 100% on the weapon.

So where is anyone "jumping though hoops" to defend this gun?!

Ok, sure, maybe mouse and keyboard and the differences in PC recoil make it an even better gun, but we've now got two video and my personal experiences saying The Last Word is very good on console. The thing disproving the complains is all the commentary, half of which you linked to! Are you muting the videos and closing your eyes?! Are you choosing to believe one group of players bad mouthing the gun while completely discounting the other group that says it's good?

I really and truly do not understand where you are coming from. Find me a video that calls the gun crap. Find me a post that back up your point of view. Because, right now... I just don't get it. By watching the videos linked here I would come away thinking what the guy in your video thought:

Bungie nailed it.

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After watching your video...

by cheapLEY @, Friday, February 01, 2019, 19:28 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I really and truly do not understand where you are coming from. Find me a video that calls the gun crap. Find me a post that back up your point of view. Because, right now... I just don't get it. By watching the videos linked here I would come away thinking what the guy in your video thought:

That's sort of a silly request.

What, his actual opinion on how the gun feels and works isn't good enough for you? It has to be some streamer?

A gun can feel like crap and still be a good gun in terms of numbers.

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After watching your video...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 01, 2019, 19:48 (135 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I really and truly do not understand where you are coming from. Find me a video that calls the gun crap. Find me a post that back up your point of view. Because, right now... I just don't get it. By watching the videos linked here I would come away thinking what the guy in your video thought:


That's sort of a silly request.

What, his actual opinion on how the gun feels and works isn't good enough for you? It has to be some streamer?

No. If anything I'd believe it more if Cruel came back with his own opinion of using the gun. But, the video that he found "far more helpful, and a more honest representation of the weapon." was almost noting but praise for the weapon and its reintroduction on consoles. What he is arguing (straw men and people jumping through hoops) and what he is calling a good opinion on the gun are just completely opposed!

I don't care if he wants to voice his own complaints or link to someone else, right now, I've seen very vague assertions that some people don't think The Last Word on consoles lived up to its legacy... and I have a pair of good, well talked videos, one of which he linked to himself, saying the gun is very good.

Something doesn't add up. And it's not silly to point that out.

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After watching your video...

by cheapLEY @, Friday, February 01, 2019, 20:02 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

He said it doesn't feel as good as it's D1 counterpart. That can be true with it still being a very good gun.

I look forward to using it so I can actually have an opinion about it. (:

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After watching your video...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, February 01, 2019, 20:09 (135 days ago) @ cheapLEY

He said it doesn't feel as good as it's D1 counterpart. That can be true with it still being a very good gun.

I look forward to using it so I can actually have an opinion about it. (:

No. He started accusing people of jumping through hoops to defend it. That goes beyond simply having an opinion and that's ultimately my issue here.

It the age old question of why his opinion is fine but mine is jumping through hoops, ya know?

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After watching your video...

by cheapLEY @, Friday, February 01, 2019, 20:59 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

No. He started accusing people of jumping through hoops to defend it. That goes beyond simply having an opinion and that's ultimately my issue here.

It the age old question of why his opinion is fine but mine is jumping through hoops, ya know?

Yep, that's totally fair. Guess I didn't look at it like that.

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After watching your video...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, February 01, 2019, 21:55 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

He said it doesn't feel as good as it's D1 counterpart. That can be true with it still being a very good gun.

I look forward to using it so I can actually have an opinion about it. (:


No. He started accusing people of jumping through hoops to defend it. That goes beyond simply having an opinion and that's ultimately my issue here.

It the age old question of why his opinion is fine but mine is jumping through hoops, ya know?

Raga, I didn’t say that you were jumping through hoops. I was referring to the guy who made the video. While my initial comment could have been interpreted either way, I thought I’d made it clear in my follow up response.

And I DID state that it doesn’t feel as good as D1’s counterpart, as Cheapley pointed out.

My problem is not with your opinion of a gun in a video game (of all the things to argue about). My problem with the way you handling this whole discussion is you’re constantly arguing against a point that I am not making, despite my repeated efforts to make it crystal clear.

I must say, I find it particularly ironic that you of all people would say “ It the age old question of why his opinion is fine but mine is jumping through hoops, ya know?”, given your particular track record for jumping in to blame anyone who holds an opinion different than your own for being somehow at fault. The number of times you’ve argued that there is something wrong with the reasoning or thought process of myself or anyone else who has the audacity to criticize something that you like... and then turn around and act like you’re being ganged up on when your tactics are pointed out. Its really quite exhausting.

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After watching your video...

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, February 02, 2019, 00:48 (135 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Raga, I didn’t say that you were jumping through hoops. I was referring to the guy who made the video. While my initial comment could have been interpreted either way, I thought I’d made it clear in my follow up response.

Cruel, it's this simple:

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO YOU SAID IT ABOUT.

What matters is you said it at all. You watched a video where someone disagreed with you and the community and you dismissed them as both too good to have a valid opinion and as jumping through hoops to back up their opinion. That's just wrong, man. And it is the only reason I'm on your case.

As for the rest? Your paragraph at the end? It is a total misunderstanding of who I am and why I do what I do. I've explained myself and my actions in great detail in the past. I guess you just don't get it. Probably you never will. The motives you ascribed to me here are total bullshit and really just a distraction to the real issues here.

You just remember: Next time you belittle someone for have a different opinion then yours I will be there. Just like I was this time.

Good day, sir!

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And since it seems to matter to you....

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, February 01, 2019, 22:03 (135 days ago) @ Ragashingo

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