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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition (Destiny)

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Still has a line in the sand, Thursday, May 16, 2019, 16:51 (30 days ago)

https://www.bungie.net/en/News/Article/47823

Whisper of the Worm

Whisper of the Worm was already adjusted in Season of the Drifter, but an Exotic that can generate an infinite amount of Heavy ammo is still a gigantic outlier and renders many weapons irrelevant for certain encounters. While Exotics are intended to be powerful and novel, bypassing the ammo economy can tend to force us to adjust enemies to compensate. This effectively results in Sniper Rifles as a whole being punished because of Whisper’s unique ammo ability. As a result, we’re removing the ammo generation ability so that we can increase the effectiveness of all other Snipers that don’t have an endless ammo supply.

-White Nail pulls ammo from reserves rather than creating it
-Reserve ammunition increased to 18 (without ammo reserve perks)


I feel like we've been here before.

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Ugh

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, May 16, 2019, 17:27 (30 days ago) @ CyberKN

This wouldn’t be so bad if it didn’t take so freaking long for tweaks to roll out. When Respawn went a little overboard in nerfing the grappling hook in Titanfall 2, they adjusted it back up within like 2 weeks. But we’re here knowing that Whisper just won’t be worth using for at least 6 months :(

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, May 16, 2019, 18:08 (30 days ago) @ CyberKN

I feel like we've been here before.

Lol, seriously. How is Bungie so bad at this?

I think this is an okay change. I wish Whisper didn't exist. It either trivializes every encounter, or it makes encounters require Whisper to complete. I'll be glad when they can design encounters without having to worry about Whisper breaking them.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 17, 2019, 01:21 (30 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I feel like we've been here before.


Lol, seriously. How is Bungie so bad at this?

I think this is an okay change. I wish Whisper didn't exist. It either trivializes every encounter, or it makes encounters require Whisper to complete. I'll be glad when they can design encounters without having to worry about Whisper breaking them.

I have gotten up to Shiro Chi.

Without spoiling the raids (like it matters now but whatever), are there any boss encounters in either Riven or Scourge that differ from the “Boss has lot of health with a burn period” formula?

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by squidnh3, Friday, May 17, 2019, 07:47 (30 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I have gotten up to Shiro Chi.

Without spoiling the raids (like it matters now but whatever), are there any boss encounters in either Riven or Scourge that differ from the “Boss has lot of health with a burn period” formula?

Depends on what you mean by boss encounter.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, May 17, 2019, 07:58 (30 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There are encounters in both Raids that do not involve killing a boss.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, May 17, 2019, 13:16 (29 days ago) @ Ragashingo

There are encounters in both Raids that do not involve killing a boss.

That’s not what I mean.

When you DO have to kill something, does it differ from said formula?

THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by ChrisTheeCrappy, Friday, May 17, 2019, 14:22 (29 days ago) @ Cody Miller

In scourage there is 1 time Whisper wins. The other boss fights no.

Cheesing last wish doesn't need Whisper, unsure if it helps doing it normally. You can choose whisper or Shotguns for 1 boss, the next one for you. But that's just to 1 phase it.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 17, 2019, 19:11 (29 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Without spoiling the raids (like it matters now but whatever), are there any boss encounters in either Riven or Scourge that differ from the “Boss has lot of health with a burn period” formula?

If I understand what you're asking, then sort of, I think.

Shuro Chi is a boss that has a lot of health, with burn periods, but her health is segmented. You can never deal more damage than a single segment per encounter with her.

Other bosses have the typical raid mechanic of "Do a thing to start a damage phase, then hurt the boss." They're not all segmented like Shuro Chi is, though. So you can do it in a single damage phase, or over multiple phases.

I'm trying to remember, has there ever been any other type of boss encounter? There's always a distinct "damage phase," isn't there?

It honestly really makes me appreciate Leviathan in a way. It stands out in a lot of ways due to its encounter design. I know a lot of people really missed fighting bosses, but, honestly, I'm not sure having what usually just amounts to a DPS check after doing the actual mechanical thing really adds much to raid encounters.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 19, 2019, 23:11 (27 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Or oryx. You never actually directly damage him. Whisper doesn’t benefit his encounter design at all.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, May 16, 2019, 18:13 (30 days ago) @ CyberKN

"No fun allowed"?

I suppose it depends on whether you find sniper rifles fun. To me, sniper rifles, especially the Exotics ones with infinite ammo, always turned Destiny (1&2) into a "who has the exotic sniper rifle" game instead of a game of tactics or weapons diversity. Nobody likes narrowly failing boss encounters, but if bosses all but require the use of one or two weapons, then I'd say the boss battle is set up wrong. A team's ability to focus DPS should be important, but the team shouldn't fail because someone dared use a weapon not at the very tip top of the meta.

Likewise, I'm very glad to hear than Exotics that grant Super energy are being nerfed. In some Raid encounter, it almost felt like having a Hunter with Shadow Shot and Orpheus Rigs notably was completely manditory, the fight against Shuro Chi in particular, and that never sat well with me. What happened from my point of view is I followed behind the teammate with the "if I miss my Super we might as well start over" Hunter and did not risk shooting anything lest they didn't get their Super back. The only times I felt like I got to contribute were when the Hunter did miss. It kinda sucked.

Overpowered weapons and Supers can be a lot of fun for those who rack up the highest numbers on the scoreboard or are the key players in encounters. But, if things are too unbalanced, the people not using those essential weapons or powers can feel like they are dead weight being pulled along. For a long time Titans didn't even have an Exotic that gave back Super energy, for instance. Where's the fun in some people getting Super after Super after Super on repeat in the amount of time it takes others to recharge their Super once?

It could be that these nerfs go too far, but not every nerf is a Bungie vs. Fun situation. It will be interesting to see what the community thinks of these changes... before and after they actually experience them.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by MacAddictXIV, Seattle WA, Friday, May 17, 2019, 06:15 (30 days ago) @ Ragashingo

"No fun allowed"?

I suppose it depends on whether you find sniper rifles fun. To me, sniper rifles, especially the Exotics ones with infinite ammo, always turned Destiny (1&2) into a "who has the exotic sniper rifle" game instead of a game of tactics or weapons diversity. Nobody likes narrowly failing boss encounters, but if bosses all but require the use of one or two weapons, then I'd say the boss battle is set up wrong. A team's ability to focus DPS should be important, but the team shouldn't fail because someone dared use a weapon not at the very tip top of the meta.

I personally find DARCI to be a far more interesting sniper than Whisper because it's actually good for adds as well as boss DPS. It's also forgiving.

Likewise, I'm very glad to hear than Exotics that grant Super energy are being nerfed. In some Raid encounter, it almost felt like having a Hunter with Shadow Shot and Orpheus Rigs notably was completely manditory, the fight against Shuro Chi in particular, and that never sat well with me. What happened from my point of view is I followed behind the teammate with the "if I miss my Super we might as well start over" Hunter and did not risk shooting anything lest they didn't get their Super back. The only times I felt like I got to contribute were when the Hunter did miss. It kinda sucked.

Overpowered weapons and Supers can be a lot of fun for those who rack up the highest numbers on the scoreboard or are the key players in encounters. But, if things are too unbalanced, the people not using those essential weapons or powers can feel like they are dead weight being pulled along. For a long time Titans didn't even have an Exotic that gave back Super energy, for instance. Where's the fun in some people getting Super after Super after Super on repeat in the amount of time it takes others to recharge their Super once?

It could be that these nerfs go too far, but not every nerf is a Bungie vs. Fun situation. It will be interesting to see what the community thinks of these changes... before and after they actually experience them.

I agree with all of this. Yes, I main a Titan, that is why I agree with this, but I also play a hunter. Although I have a lot of fun with tether, I really do think rigs needs a nerf.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 17, 2019, 07:54 (30 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I almost exclusively play as a Nightstalker with Orpheus Rigs. Even I agree that it needs a nerf. As much fun as continuous supers are, it completely breaks the combat of the game.

A single Rigs Hunter with one Well of Radiance Warlock can chain supers and destroy Tier III Blind Wells pretty easily. Which is totally fun! But also broken.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:45 (30 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Orpheus are definitely OP, but I'll still use them almost exclusively on my Nightstalkers even after most nerfs I can think of that don't straight up disable it.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, May 17, 2019, 08:56 (30 days ago) @ ZackDark
edited by Korny, Friday, May 17, 2019, 09:11

Orpheus are definitely OP, but I'll still use them almost exclusively on my Nightstalkers even after most nerfs I can think of that don't straight up disable it.

I think a big part of that is exotics that just aren't interesting or useful in PvE.

Too many exotics in the game tweak your neutral game, or add a bonus perk to your class abilities, so exotics that affect Orb generation, DPS, and speed of Super recovery will always win out over them, especially where endgame encounters are concerned.

It's worse that there are far too many instances where Bungie thinks single-digit percentage tweaks are enough to make gear interesting.

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I'm kinda salty

by ManKitten ⌂, The Stugotz is strong in me., Friday, May 17, 2019, 18:49 (29 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I almost exclusively play as a Nightstalker with Orpheus Rigs. Even I agree that it needs a nerf. As much fun as continuous supers are, it completely breaks the combat of the game.

A single Rigs Hunter with one Well of Radiance Warlock can chain supers and destroy Tier III Blind Wells pretty easily. Which is totally fun! But also broken.

I don't really see why this is considered broken. IMHO, the purpose of these exotics and supers IS to build that special loadout to become unstoppable. Isn't that the point of being a guardian bestowed with light?

What seems broken is the thought process of Bungie saying "Hey here's a bunch of awesome stuff so you can "become legend" and save the universe. Oh, wait...you're actually using the stuff the way it's intended? Oh man, oh man, we gotta do something about this."

I have to say, I've got a really salty taste in my mouth about Destiny right now. I've not played in a few weeks since the Drifter debacle where you couldn't complete the quest that week. I'm so tired of just constant f*** ups, then doubling down with exotic nerfs. I don't understand what they are doing and it's super irritating. It seems like I'm always trying to find the bright side about the game but they are really making it hard to do lately.


ManKitten George is getting upset!

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I'm kinda salty

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 17, 2019, 19:20 (29 days ago) @ ManKitten

I don't really see why this is considered broken. IMHO, the purpose of these exotics and supers IS to build that special loadout to become unstoppable. Isn't that the point of being a guardian bestowed with light?

I mean, is it?

Being powerful is certainly fun. Being so powerful that previously difficult activities become trivial is not all that fun, in my opinion.

Something like Escalation Protocol with a full 9 people used to be a blast, but, when Warmind was new, even with that full 9 people, it was still reasonably difficult.

Now, a team of 4 or 5 can destroy a full seven waves of EP without even trying. That's fun . . . once. After that it feels no different than a much longer public event in terms of difficulty. Some people look at that and see power growth or whatever. I just see a previously fun, challenging activity becoming more boring.

Power Creep is a very real thing, and it's not an easy problem to solve (actually, it is--ditch power level as a mechanic and bring back difficulty selection).

Things like Orpheus Rigs have the problem that has been stated. It either trivializes encounters that don't take having those things into account, or it makes it completely necessary to use them and negates any other options for encounters that do take them into account. Having a super ability that is essentially infinite is straight up broken, I don't see how anyone could argue that it's not. Again, it's certainly fun! But undoubtedly broken.

I have many, many problems with current Destiny, but this isn't one of them. They can't just keep buffing stuff and bringing everything up to par instead of nerfing things, unless you want a huge mess of mechanics and everything being overpowered.

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I'm kinda salty

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, May 19, 2019, 23:06 (27 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Being powerful is certainly fun. Being so powerful that previously difficult activities become trivial is not all that fun, in my opinion.

It’s a shame there is no way to design a video game where you can adjust the difficulty such that you can always challenge yourself. I think Bungie tried this before with Halo but I guess it didn’t work out or something.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Friday, May 17, 2019, 10:00 (29 days ago) @ Ragashingo

...I'm very glad to hear than Exotics that grant Super energy are being nerfed. In some Raid encounter, it almost felt like having a Hunter with Shadow Shot and Orpheus Rigs notably was completely manditory, the fight against Shuro Chi in particular, and that never sat well with me.

As a nearly full-time Hunter, I totally agree. I'd rather run more interesting supers, but Shadow Shot is usually best for the team as it effectively turns an entire crowd of enemies into a single add and generates a ton of orbs for everyone. My biggest issue with the update, though, is probably this...

these items are so overwhelmingly strong in situations where players face off against large numbers of enemies, some activities were designed considering the use of armor such as Orpheus Rigs, Phoenix Protocol, Skull of Dire Ahamkara, etc.

We are making some changes to these armor pieces to try to preserve their power fantasy and still leave them as viable choices for difficult activities without making players feel like they must have them equipped or be at a huge disadvantage.

They mention that encounters had to be designed around overpowered gear, and that they're fixing this overpowered gear, but don't mention fixing the encounters that are currently designed for gear that won't exist after the update.

Are they going to scale back the number of enemies in encounters like Shuro Chi, so that tethers aren't as necessary to meet the tight time limit, or are they going to leave the encounter as-is and just make it so now you need more Hunters running Opulance Rigs (as I will now and forevermore be referring to the new, nerfed Orpheus Rigs) to make sure there are enough tethers for add control?

-Disciple

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by squidnh3, Friday, May 17, 2019, 10:19 (29 days ago) @ DiscipleN2k

Are they going to scale back the number of enemies in encounters like Shuro Chi

I feel like people are making Shuro Chi out to be way harder than it actually is. Maybe tether was a must-have during our blind run, but I think now we could do a super-free run with a few Riskrunners or Thunderlords.

Now the Reckoning Bridge, that's another story.

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*shudders*

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 18, 2019, 08:49 (29 days ago) @ squidnh3

- No text -

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PS. Xur's final Invitation is all Crucible + Comp.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, May 17, 2019, 14:41 (29 days ago) @ CyberKN

Bungie reeeeeally wants people to populate those, don't they?

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PS. Xur's final Invitation is all Crucible + Comp.

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, May 19, 2019, 19:35 (27 days ago) @ Korny

Damn.

I should have jumped in and found team to roll with. Probably would have been easier to get those extra 102 points I need for Fabled going against a bunch of solos just doing the quest.

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PS. Xur's final Invitation is all Crucible + Comp.

by DiscipleN2k @, Edmond, OK, Sunday, May 19, 2019, 20:10 (27 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Damn.

I should have jumped in and found team to roll with. Probably would have been easier to get those extra 102 points I need for Fabled going against a bunch of solos just doing the quest.

Competition was definitely a bit lighter this weekend. I went three for three when I jumped in solo yesterday. One of those was against a four stack (my team was all randoms). I almost felt bad.

Also, Rumble counts for Quickplay games, too, so you can knock out the invitation in just six games.

-Disciple

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Friday, May 17, 2019, 17:34 (29 days ago) @ CyberKN

Wow. Déjà Vu is right.

So that’s why it wasn’t working yesterday, and there goes my only chance of soloing Shattered Throne.

So yeah, anti-fun.

THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Claude Errera @, Friday, May 17, 2019, 17:59 (29 days ago) @ Morpheus

Wow. Déjà Vu is right.

So that’s why it wasn’t working yesterday, and there goes my only chance of soloing Shattered Throne.

So yeah, anti-fun.

Um...

that change doesn't happen until June 4. If something wasn't working yesterday, it had nothing to do with any of this.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 16:59 (28 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Auuuggghhh.....I swear, sometimes I think Bungie singles me out for abuse. -_-

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, May 17, 2019, 22:39 (29 days ago) @ CyberKN
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Friday, May 17, 2019, 22:42

A few thoughts.

I’ll say upfront that I understand the nerfs to the super-refilling exotics. That makes a certain amount of sense, IMO.

But when it comes to everything else, these nerfs look to me like a huge step backwards for D2. Back in the early days of D2, even in the warm glow of new-game excitement, I found boss battles to be boring. Whatever other mechanics were involved, spamming a huge target with auto and scout rifles just wasn’t fun. None of the game’s heavy weapons packed much punch, so these encounters inevitably came down to spamming primary weapons.

Then after several months, we finally started to get some firepower. The weapon slot changes, along with additions like the Ikelos shotty & Sniper, Sleeper, Whisper, followed by 1KV, Thunderlord, Mountaintop, improvements to Darci, and others; for some time now we’ve had a diverse selection of fun and unique ways to dish out serious damage numbers.

But even while this selection has continued to grow, the effectiveness of this selection has been whittled down.

Box Breathing and Trench Barrel both got hit hard. Machine Guns had their boss damage nerfed. Sleeper and Whisper have both been nerfed already (Whisper severely so), with more nerfs in their immediate future.

To me, this pattern shows a lack of foresight on Bungie’s part. The playerbase will always gravitate towards the weapons that are the most effective and fun to use. Bungie’s statements seem to say that they see these outliers as problems to be addressed, and so these strong weapons are being repeatedly brought down. But perhaps Whisper and Sleeper wouldn’t be seen as standing so high above the pack if Box Breathing, Trench Barrel, or Machine Guns were as effective as they used to be.

In addition to that, I just don’t buy the argument that Sleeper or Whisper or any of the other guns being nerfed are overpowered. Whisper *can* generate infinite ammo, but that’s actually REALLY HARD to pull off, outside of a couple specific instances. Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either. If anything, it’s an added layer of skill for players to work on. Not Forgotten and Luna’s Howl are particularly effective on console, but look at the PC side. If I remember correctly, neither of those weapons crack the top-5 most effective primary weapons list, largely due to the fact that the lack of bloom and reduced recoil on PC make a whole bunch of other weapons able to compete with them, and win.

Basically, what this all looks like to me is a slow and gradual progression back to the boring boss fights of vanilla D2, where nothing stood out because nothing was particularly effective in any scenario.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Friday, May 17, 2019, 22:52 (29 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either

Except for on that one Hydra boss from the Black Armory. That's hilarious enough to be left alone, though, in my book.

But, you're right, and it's a direction I wish Bungie would explore. Make things unique and interesting, with neat mechanics that reward exploring the edges a bit more and actually learning stuff and improving skill, rather than "the number got bigger" and "this just does huge DPS." Being powerful on its own can be fun, but it's not nearly as fun as playing with something cool and interesting that gives the base mechanics of Destiny a neat twist.

I think some of these nerfs are required, though. The hardest encounters in the game are designed in such a way that I couldn't use Trinity Ghoul (near the top of my favorite exotics--it's just fun!), because I couldn't afford to lose out on the sheer DPS of Whisper or Sleeper. It's honestly why I don't think there are many fun boss encounters in Destiny--they're mostly just DPS checks with few actual combat challenges. You just have to not die and deal massive amounts of damage--it's not exactly interesting.

I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 07:36 (29 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Bouncing Sleeper Shots isn’t exactly easy to pull off correctly either


Except for on that one Hydra boss from the Black Armory. That's hilarious enough to be left alone, though, in my book.

But, you're right, and it's a direction I wish Bungie would explore. Make things unique and interesting, with neat mechanics that reward exploring the edges a bit more and actually learning stuff and improving skill, rather than "the number got bigger" and "this just does huge DPS." Being powerful on its own can be fun, but it's not nearly as fun as playing with something cool and interesting that gives the base mechanics of Destiny a neat twist.

I think some of these nerfs are required, though. The hardest encounters in the game are designed in such a way that I couldn't use Trinity Ghoul (near the top of my favorite exotics--it's just fun!), because I couldn't afford to lose out on the sheer DPS of Whisper or Sleeper. It's honestly why I don't think there are many fun boss encounters in Destiny--they're mostly just DPS checks with few actual combat challenges. You just have to not die and deal massive amounts of damage--it's not exactly interesting.

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I’ll push back a tiny bit here, just because successfully chaining crits is not always that easy, even in some of those encounters. There is so much flinch with that thing, the reticule bounces like crazy. Plus even bosses like Calus or the Scourge guy have a habit of twitching just as I’m pulling the trigger :)

But even if I’m wrong about that, there’s an inherent trade-off with Whisper because it’s so specialized. It can absolutely wreck a Spider Tank, but it’s mostly useless in most other encounters. And I really like that trade-off. I like that when my team goes into Zero Hour, there’s a strategic discussion that happens where we decide if we want someone to bring Whisper to deal with the tanks. Because that can be super helpful, but it also means that player doesn’t have a heavy weapon to help with any of the other encounters in the mission. So the remaining 2 players need to choose their loadouts carefully, make sure that everyone has the right elemental damage covered, that the team has a plan for dealing with the super shanks and Captains, not to mention the boss himself. With these new changes, Whisper often won’t be so effective against the tanks, because you won’t have enough ammo. I’ve played through that whole mission without seeing a single purple brick several times.

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 08:18 (29 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 08:26

The problem is that Whisper's zone of being SUPER EFFECTIVE just happens to almost always line up with the most tense moments in Destiny. Zero Hour is a good example where weapon specialization works well. But, most Raids where we get the best and most sought after rewards are on the other end of the spectrum. Way too many bosses have some fun mechanics to get them into a DPSable state... and then they are just huge targets sitting there for Whisper.

Imagine instead, if a boss fragmented into a pile of pieces that all needed to be killed quickly and it was a rocket launcher instead of the a sniper rifle that worked best? Or if a boss in its DPS phase released multiple quick yellow bar that by being released depleted the boss' health and dealing with them was better suited to heavy machine guns and stunning grenade launchers.

Instead, all throughout all of Destiny, it's been the infinite ammo sniper rifle shooting at the giant upscaled boss that has dominated Raid encounters. Which throws weapon specialization right out the window. An overpowered Whisper is fine with a more diverse set of encounters... but generally we don't have that so it needs to fit what we actually do have.

I do think they hit Whisper too hard, by the way. Imagine if they'd just cut its ammo generation in half or something. Then it could still be unique and do "it's thing" instead of feeling like a D.A.R.C.I. knockoff...

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, May 18, 2019, 08:56 (29 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I agree. Your suggestions, by the way, are hundreds of time more useful than nerfing Whisper, which is kind of the point, I think.

Nerfing Whisper solves a problem that they are creating themselves. Sure, designing brand new encounters is hard, but isn't this nerf potentially helping devs slack off and repeat the 'damage phase immobile boss' all the time?

Also, what happened to mechanics where we damage the boss through the use of encounter items, as opposed to weapons? Those were fun! Remember WotM?

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 10:43 (28 days ago) @ Ragashingo

The problem is that Whisper's zone of being SUPER EFFECTIVE just happens to almost always line up with the most tense moments in Destiny. Zero Hour is a good example where weapon specialization works well. But, most Raids where we get the best and most sought after rewards are on the other end of the spectrum. Way too many bosses have some fun mechanics to get them into a DPSable state... and then they are just huge targets sitting there for Whisper.

Imagine instead, if a boss fragmented into a pile of pieces that all needed to be killed quickly and it was a rocket launcher instead of the a sniper rifle that worked best? Or if a boss in its DPS phase released multiple quick yellow bar that by being released depleted the boss' health and dealing with them was better suited to heavy machine guns and stunning grenade launchers.

Instead, all throughout all of Destiny, it's been the infinite ammo sniper rifle shooting at the giant upscaled boss that has dominated Raid encounters. Which throws weapon specialization right out the window. An overpowered Whisper is fine with a more diverse set of encounters... but generally we don't have that so it needs to fit what we actually do have.

I do think they hit Whisper too hard, by the way. Imagine if they'd just cut its ammo generation in half or something. Then it could still be unique and do "it's thing" instead of feeling like a D.A.R.C.I. knockoff...

This is a great point too. It does show a certain over-dependence in the "everyone form up and hit the stationary boss during the damage phase!" mechanic that Bungie seems so fond of, especially in Raids. I love your suggestions. Another approach is to have boss encounters where your weapons literally can't hurt the boss, like Crota. That was another battle that encouraged specialization. You wanted to have a few people with sniper rifles to take care of the Boomer Knights and the oversoul, while other players might want to use tracking rockets or machine guns to deal with Crota's shield. There was no "must have" weapon... it was more about planning your loadout around what the team needed.

I'm ok with boss fights like the Scourge final boss from time to time. In that case, I see the "line up and blast him" portion as a sort of reward for doing everything else right. If you've left snipers alive, or failed to clear out the Fallen captain, then you'll be under too much fire to unleash a barrage of Whisper rounds. It's also an example of a fight where there are other equally effective alternatives to Whisper, despite its strength. I've used the Mountaintop and out-damaged teammates who were using Whisper. Shotguns can be very effective as well. And its well known that DARCI can consistently out DPS Whisper as well.
So even in a situation that seems tailored to Whisper, it isn't the clear winner.

All that said, I'm totally with you on the need for some more diverse boss fights.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 10:54 (28 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Yeah, the Scourge of the Past boss is fine. Lots to do. Lots of diverse roles. Map watcher. Strike teams. Boss shield generator killers. And it even outright kills you if your entire game plan is to stand in one spot and spam an overpowered weapon.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 10:54 (28 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.

They don’t help any of the encounters already in the game. My hope is that now they don’t have to consider an infinite ammo high DPS sniper rifle going forward. Raga posted a handful of better solutions, though, so now I don’t know. It’s just another example of why I’m sort of exhausted with Destiny right now. Bungie excels at a lot of things, but they really need some fresh blood for designing boss encounters.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.

I’m still disappointed with the locked load out thing. The way they talked about it before launch made me think it would be much more common, and the way they handled hard mode for the raid lairs was at least a neat idea, even if it was lackluster in its implementation. I know lots would push back against implementing that more heavily, but I’d like to see them play with curated load outs a lot more.

It’s a tired comparison, but I find myself missing Halo’s sensibility more and more

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 11:05 (28 days ago) @ cheapLEY

That’s a fair point, but how do these nerfs help? Trinity Ghoul isn’t going to be any more useful now. The encounters haven’t changed.


They don’t help any of the encounters already in the game. My hope is that now they don’t have to consider an infinite ammo high DPS sniper rifle going forward. Raga posted a handful of better solutions, though, so now I don’t know. It’s just another example of why I’m sort of exhausted with Destiny right now. Bungie excels at a lot of things, but they really need some fresh blood for designing boss encounters.


I disagree about Whisper being difficult to use. Plenty of bosses do nothing but stand there stupidly--see half of Gambit's bosses, the Ogre in Last Wish, the final boss in Scourge of the Past, Calus (granted, Whisper didn't exist when he was designed).

I like specialization. I like having a mix of precision tools along side general all-purpose weapons. Precision tools like Whisper might be SUPER effective in very limited situations, but that’s great IMO. I gives it a reason to exist. Now it’s just another sniper rifle that takes up an exotic slot.


I’m still disappointed with the locked load out thing. The way they talked about it before launch made me think it would be much more common, and the way they handled hard mode for the raid lairs was at least a neat idea, even if it was lackluster in its implementation. I know lots would push back against implementing that more heavily, but I’d like to see them play with curated load outs a lot more.

It’s a tired comparison, but I find myself missing Halo’s sensibility more and more

Locked loadouts need to be some interesting. Make matching energy types do extra damage to Supers again (and even increase the damage they do) and then lock a player's Crucible loadout for an hour when they first enter a special event like Iron Banner. Then maybe we'd start seeing more interesting strategies.

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...or a lot of Hard Light.

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 13:33 (28 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 01:37 (29 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

A reasonable supposition is that bouncing sleeper shots would somehow wreck in the new raid, so the nerf is pre-emptive. I can picture an encounter where lining up a ricochet is very easy and rather than redesign it they just nerf sleeper.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 07:18 (29 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 07:29

On the other hand, there are far too many instances where the boss battles are no fun because players are able to melt bosses within a few seconds. One phasing the Last Wish Ogre? Or Callus? Or outright killing Inverted Spire or Warden of Nothing or the A Garden World bosses before they even get to attack? That’s terribly boring.

I loved the fiery room mechanic of the flaming Servitor, where you have to hide as the various old Prison of Elders bosses are announced and fight you. But now, especially as the more powerful heavy weapons have been introduced, two players Whispering that boss kill it I almost immediately and I never get to play the rest of the Strike.

So, there’s actually two issues here: Poorly designed bosses and overpowered weapons.

If Bungie intends for us to play an entire encounter, it needs to build in damage caps and phases into the bosses. We see these in some places already in more recent content. They need to be extended into the past content. With damage capping health segments a unusually good weapon or strategy won’t ruin the gameplay. Remember, while I like getting rewards from the Crucible, I like playing Crucible much more and a quick end to a game because I was joined into a game that immediately ends in a mercy is pretty much the worst Destiny experience for me. Having a Strike or Raid encounter end almost immediately is equally awful for me. So not all of this can be blamed on guns being too powerful. Boss design needs to be betterment too.

But sometimes weapons are too powerful. The best examples are the Kalli and Shuro Chi encounters. Teammates using Sleeper were able to triple my damage output when I was using my brand new Two-tailed Fox. Boy, that felt crappy. In the early runnings of Last Wish, our lower Light levels basically meant either everyone used Sleeper... or we straight up failed the Shuro Chi stun check and wiped. Destiny is a game where you are encouraged to build your own load out. And yes, the boss can be too tough or a player could bring a totally unsuited load out, but at some point, like when one or two weapons outperform literally everything else by 3x, the guns themselves are also part of the problem.

The Shuro Chi battles was one of the worst encounters in Destiny for me. I was getting one third the boss damage of everyone else so eventually I was assigned to an unlock plate so I’d be useful, and we had the Orpheus Rigs Hunter, so shooting things during the adds phase was also a no-no. The encounter is clever and interesting and fun. I got a lot of enjoyment watching my fire team complete it... (aka, I felt pretty useless in most of the encounter.)

Ultimately, I see these weapon nerfs as necessary, but they are only half the equation. Bosses need better design too. Look at the Eater of Worlds Hydra. There was some straight up DPSing required, but destroying its weak spots each round did not require DPS. It required sustained damage of any amount. Slow firing, high burst damage weapons were actually a liability. There’s no need for Bungie to entirely eliminate DPS phases in its boss designs, but it’s better when beating bosses requires a more diverse weapon selection.

Nerfing these weapons isn’t so much a walk back to mediocrity as it is past encounters unfortunately getting designed around just a few overpowered weapons. Weapons wouldn’t feel ineffective if bosses weren’t so tanky that they required the very top tier weapons to kill.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 08:36 (29 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I think you make a great point about boss encounter design, but it’s a double-edged sword. The exodus black strike was taken out of the game for months because the community hated that boss fight so much, specifically because damage windows were capped and segmented. This bleeds into a whole discussion about why players are running these activities in the first place (enjoyment of the activity vs drops), but I’ll get back to that later.

I like your example of Shuro Chi as well. But I don’t necessarily feel that it’s evidence that Sleeper is too powerful. I like to think of weapons in Destiny as tools. For a tool to be satisfying, it must be useful. There needs to be a job for which it is well suited. Sleepers job is wrecking bosses. It doesn’t really work for ad clear. You don’t get enough ammo to use it on every major that pops up. But when that boss phase comes along, it earns its exotic slot, and all the time it took to unlock it.

I look at it this way:

You mentioned how little damage you were able to do with 2-Tailed Fox compared to Sleeper. Well, imagine Sleeper didn’t exist, and everyone on your team was using 2TF, or other rocket launchers. Would that have made the fight more fun for you, or anyone else? Probably not, I’d guess. I doubt you’d be able to get anywhere near the damage numbers required to beat her. It just wouldn’t be possible. Now, perhaps this is a situation where rocket launchers are not the right tool for that job (side-note: Bungie has failed to make Rocket Launchers particularly well suited to any job, and that’s part of the problem). Fine. But Bungie is moving in the direction of having no tools that excel at Boss DPS, where I’d prefer they went the other direction and gave us more options. Give us more weapons that can hold a candle to Sleeper and Whisper. They don’t need to be as strong, but close enough that those 2 weapons aren’t seen as “required” for boss battles. And as I mentioned earlier, for a while we did have other options (trench-barrel shotguns, box-breathing snipers, machine guns), but Bungie went and nerfed all of them to the point where Whisper and Sleeper were once again disproportionally stronger.

On top of all this, there is the factor that many people who play strikes or raids want to get through them as quickly as possible. They’re not running Scourge of the Past for the 49th time because they enjoy it... they just want their damn Anarchy, and it won’t drop for them. Or they’re trying to get their Oxygen SR3, so they’re crashing through strikes as fast as possible. It’s an interesting connection to the main topic we’re discussing. Many players go to such lengths because they want to earn weapons that are powerful or unique in their own specific ways.

It’s a complex issue, no doubt.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 10:56 (28 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I loved the fiery room mechanic of the flaming Servitor, where you have to hide as the various old Prison of Elders bosses are announced and fight you.

Um . . . What? I didn’t even know that was a thing. I have never seen that happen. I’ve never, ever seen that Servitor last more than approximately 30 seconds. I’ve only seen his burning attack like twice, ever.

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THAB 5/16/19: No Fun Allowed edition

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Saturday, May 18, 2019, 11:06 (28 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It is a wonderful, nostalgic Strike... that nobody sees anymore. :(

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