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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks. (Destiny)

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:23 (1766 days ago)

It stinks to go to the Eververse store and see an item that looks cool and then seeing that the item has bad perks on it. In fact, when we’re setting up the armor, we’d twist ourselves up in knots to make sure the Eververse armor sets didn’t have good perks. We did this because we want the best way to get sweet perks on your armor to be by playing the game, not shopping for enhanced Hand Cannon loaders at Tess. The root cause (dating all the way back to Destiny 1) is that Eververse armor has always had perks/gameplay capability as a part of the package.

That's... kind of a douche move, especially since people can pay real money to try to get those (or to buy the bundles now).

Big changes coming to Eververse in the Fall.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:32 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

It stinks to go to the Eververse store and see an item that looks cool and then seeing that the item has bad perks on it. In fact, when we’re setting up the armor, we’d twist ourselves up in knots to make sure the Eververse armor sets didn’t have good perks. We did this because we want the best way to get sweet perks on your armor to be by playing the game, not shopping for enhanced Hand Cannon loaders at Tess. The root cause (dating all the way back to Destiny 1) is that Eververse armor has always had perks/gameplay capability as a part of the package.


That's... kind of a douche move, especially since people can pay real money to try to get those (or to buy the bundles now).

Big changes coming to Eververse in the Fall.

Did you want them to give those armors the best perks so that people can buy them? I'd rather them sell them for looks then make them pay to win.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:40 (1766 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Implying that any of the perks in Destiny would be pay to win is silly. They’re all varying degrees of mediocre to completely irrelevant.

I really hope the new system changes that.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 14:02 (1766 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Implying that any of the perks in Destiny would be pay to win is silly. They’re all varying degrees of mediocre to completely irrelevant.

I really hope the new system changes that.

You could easily argue the opposite then. All perks are good in situations, so they didn't give them the worst perks either :D

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 16:09 (1766 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

That’s a fair point. I haven’t so much as looked at perks in months. I have a dedicated set for Crucible, but I’d hesitate to say it actually makes any difference at all.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Thursday, June 20, 2019, 07:01 (1766 days ago) @ cheapLEY

That’s a fair point. I haven’t so much as looked at perks in months. I have a dedicated set for Crucible, but I’d hesitate to say it actually makes any difference at all.

I've hated the look of every single eververse armor for Titan's so I haven't done anything with them either, so it's a moot point for me too :D

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 21, 2019, 12:32 (1764 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Cody Miller, Friday, June 21, 2019, 12:35

Implying that any of the perks in Destiny would be pay to win is silly. They’re all varying degrees of mediocre to completely irrelevant.

I really hope the new system changes that.

I don't think a game like Destiny can really use perks in a good way.

Let's go back to Deus Ex. You can customize your character with 'perks' in a wide variety of ways. The game allows you to complete it by using your perks. In the final area you can hack the weapons systems to fire at your enemies if you have sufficient hacking skill. If you harden yourself to environmental hazards, you can sneak in through entrances and routes that would kill you otherwise. Or, you can go in guns blazing with a heavy weapon and stone skin.

All of this works because it is a single player game, and the goal is to have fun, progress, and explore. The perks are also not random; you choose them.

But look at a game like Diablo 2/3, where you can likewise select your perks but players converge on very specific builds. That game is based on killing things quickly. So there will be a set of skills that is just flat out better at that. And especially if you play with other people who want to level up or find items, they are going to expect you to be fast and efficient at killing.

Deus Ex does not prioritize quick killing. Diablo does. And Destiny does too.

If you make perks that have a noticeable impact, the ones that impact your ability to kill quickly will be preferred. And because you are so good at killing, hard content will have to be designed around having those perks. Otherwise it would be easy. So if you don't have them, you are at a disadvantage. It's no longer about choosing playstyle, but about measuring up.

Ultimately if you take 3 hours to beat Area 51 in Deus Ex by being stealthy instead of rushing in guns blazing and doing it in one, that's your choice. But you wouldn't have that luxury if you are in a strike or raid fireteam. They want the drop as efficiently as possible most of the time.

Of course if you make perks not have much of an impact, they don't really matter much do they?

The main problem is that Destiny just prioritizes certain things way more than others. The only solution I can think of is to design more parts of the game where alternate strategies are more desirable than murdering everything as quickly as possible, or provide some set of alternative goals for encounters.

In PvP, there are just perks that are straight up better. Again, if they have a huge effect, if you don't have them you are straight up disadvantaged. I think weapon mods should probably be disabled in PvP, but what do I know.

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Really bummed you didn't stick with Dishonored/Dishonored 2

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Thursday, June 27, 2019, 04:34 (1759 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Implying that any of the perks in Destiny would be pay to win is silly. They’re all varying degrees of mediocre to completely irrelevant.

I really hope the new system changes that.


I don't think a game like Destiny can really use perks in a good way.

Let's go back to Deus Ex. You can customize your character with 'perks' in a wide variety of ways. The game allows you to complete it by using your perks. In the final area you can hack the weapons systems to fire at your enemies if you have sufficient hacking skill. If you harden yourself to environmental hazards, you can sneak in through entrances and routes that would kill you otherwise. Or, you can go in guns blazing with a heavy weapon and stone skin.

All of this works because it is a single player game, and the goal is to have fun, progress, and explore. The perks are also not random; you choose them.

But look at a game like Diablo 2/3, where you can likewise select your perks but players converge on very specific builds. That game is based on killing things quickly. So there will be a set of skills that is just flat out better at that. And especially if you play with other people who want to level up or find items, they are going to expect you to be fast and efficient at killing.

Deus Ex does not prioritize quick killing. Diablo does. And Destiny does too.

If you make perks that have a noticeable impact, the ones that impact your ability to kill quickly will be preferred. And because you are so good at killing, hard content will have to be designed around having those perks. Otherwise it would be easy. So if you don't have them, you are at a disadvantage. It's no longer about choosing playstyle, but about measuring up.

Ultimately if you take 3 hours to beat Area 51 in Deus Ex by being stealthy instead of rushing in guns blazing and doing it in one, that's your choice. But you wouldn't have that luxury if you are in a strike or raid fireteam. They want the drop as efficiently as possible most of the time.

Of course if you make perks not have much of an impact, they don't really matter much do they?

The main problem is that Destiny just prioritizes certain things way more than others. The only solution I can think of is to design more parts of the game where alternate strategies are more desirable than murdering everything as quickly as possible, or provide some set of alternative goals for encounters.

In PvP, there are just perks that are straight up better. Again, if they have a huge effect, if you don't have them you are straight up disadvantaged. I think weapon mods should probably be disabled in PvP, but what do I know.

Every Deus Ex post you make just makes me appreciate those games even more.

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Really bummed you didn't stick with Dishonored/Dishonored 2

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:03 (1759 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I’ll get around to them on PC very soon!

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Really bummed you didn't stick with Dishonored/Dishonored 2

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:10 (1759 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I still need to play Death of the Outsider.

I’ve been waiting for a good sale so I can buy the collection on Xbox and play through the whole series again.

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Been having a lot of similar fun with Prey (2017) too

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, June 27, 2019, 19:22 (1758 days ago) @ kidtsunami

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:36 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

I appreciate that it can feel that ways, but that’s a sour read. While I see it more as:

We want you to be able to get the good stuff by playing the game, not by buying it

This is much less of a dick move, especially as the context is just not having Enhanced Perks.

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Did you fall for “a sense of pride and accomplishment” too?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:48 (1766 days ago) @ Harmanimus

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Did you fall for “a sense of pride and accomplishment” too?

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 14:02 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

I didn’t highlight the worst interpretation of a minor comment in an article of otherwise positive news.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 13:52 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

It stinks to go to the Eververse store and see an item that looks cool and then seeing that the item has bad perks on it. In fact, when we’re setting up the armor, we’d twist ourselves up in knots to make sure the Eververse armor sets didn’t have good perks. We did this because we want the best way to get sweet perks on your armor to be by playing the game, not shopping for enhanced Hand Cannon loaders at Tess. The root cause (dating all the way back to Destiny 1) is that Eververse armor has always had perks/gameplay capability as a part of the package.


That's... kind of a douche move, especially since people can pay real money to try to get those (or to buy the bundles now).

Big changes coming to Eververse in the Fall.

You're leaving out a pretty significant part of the story. The very next paragraph after your quote is:

We’re done with that. As of this September, all Eververse armor is being converted into Universal Ornaments. These Universal Ornaments can be applied to all of the Legendary armor sets we’re releasing this Fall. They override the look of your equipped gear while preserving the perks, mods, and stats of the original item.

This is pretty sweet. There are a lot of Eververse armor I've liked but I never waste my time with them because it's super obnoxious having to waste a core to get them to proper light level, and have zero usable perks. Finally, I can have a guardian that isn't the constant garbage monster wearing whatever planetary highest light armor is laying around. Don't focus on the lame (but logical) thing they did do, focus on the rad thing they are going to do!

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 14:02 (1766 days ago) @ ManKitten

It stinks to go to the Eververse store and see an item that looks cool and then seeing that the item has bad perks on it. In fact, when we’re setting up the armor, we’d twist ourselves up in knots to make sure the Eververse armor sets didn’t have good perks. We did this because we want the best way to get sweet perks on your armor to be by playing the game, not shopping for enhanced Hand Cannon loaders at Tess. The root cause (dating all the way back to Destiny 1) is that Eververse armor has always had perks/gameplay capability as a part of the package.


That's... kind of a douche move, especially since people can pay real money to try to get those (or to buy the bundles now).

Big changes coming to Eververse in the Fall.


You're leaving out a pretty significant part of the story. The very next paragraph after your quote is:

We’re done with that. As of this September, all Eververse armor is being converted into Universal Ornaments. These Universal Ornaments can be applied to all of the Legendary armor sets we’re releasing this Fall. They override the look of your equipped gear while preserving the perks, mods, and stats of the original item.

I mean, that’s literally the “big changes” part of my post immediately after my assessment of the current system.
It’s great what it’s going to be, but it’s kind of lame how is has been for the past two years, and that should really be called out. They gamed the system to screw players over, on purpose, if you wanted to spend real money. You would have a less rewarding experience than RNG would have given you otherwise.
Of course, this has never stopped me from wearing the armor that I liked, and I couldn’t tell you what a single perk was on any one piece, but as a matter of principle, it’s been manipulative and evil.


This is pretty sweet. There are a lot of Eververse armor I've liked but I never waste my time with them because it's super obnoxious having to waste a core to get them to proper light level, and have zero usable perks. Finally, I can have a guardian that isn't the constant garbage monster wearing whatever planetary highest light armor is laying around. Don't focus on the lame (but logical) thing they did do, focus on the rad thing they are going to do!

I’m going to miss being able to drop my Light level to double digits for Comp. Dunking on sweaty OEMs at 45-190 Light is so satisfying...

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 14:16 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

Of course, this has never stopped me from wearing the armor that I liked, and I couldn’t tell you what a single perk was on any one piece, but as a matter of principle, it’s been manipulative and evil.


Manipulative and evil is a bit strong. I think it's just been a bad system. They were trying to create a revenue with "skins" without breaking the economy of the game. What they got was a system that annoyed gamers and probably doesn't bring them all that much revenue.

I still think one of the best systems for this stuff was in Fortnite. You purchase a pass that opens up 100 tiers of unlockables. The game itself is free, but what you pay money for is customization of your character. A similar adaptation of this model could be beneficial to Destiny, imo.

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The real news here...

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 14:13 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

Is now I can (am encouraged to!) shard all these things I have in my vault. More room for Weapon Component stacks!

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But then I’ll never actually use them.

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 15:22 (1766 days ago) @ squidnh3

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+1000

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 15:36 (1766 days ago) @ squidnh3

- No text -

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Do we know FOR SURE we can start sharding Eververse Armors?

by Pyromancy @, discovering fire every week, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 20:30 (1766 days ago) @ squidnh3
edited by Pyromancy, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 20:43

Do we know FOR SURE we can start sharding Eververse Armors right now, today?

I'm afraid of finding out later there is an inventory check date, like when they unveiled Collections. With Collections, didn't we find out later there was a 1 time inventory check at a future date and if you started sharding too early you may now be missing items from your Collection? Or at least wasn't it a bit murky when it was first communicated?

I'd like to see this question Explicitly answered/stated so there is no chance of the other shoe dropping later. Maybe a good question to answer in the This Week at Bungie/Weekly Communication/THAB


I'm excited for some of these changes!
I'm also wary/disappointed about the lack of Bright Dust from Eververse dismantles after September. Eververse dismantles are virtually my only source of Bright Dust and without them I'll be able to get barely any Eververse items. I feel it right now with the new Store. I've exhausted my Bright Dust supply on New Season 7 items. Silver Items are so expensive and I won't Microtransact, even after any changes in September.
I'm not expecting the Bounties to be worth a significant amount of Bright Dust. We already have Eververse Bounties/notes and it feels like they are worth very little compared to an Exotic Eververse item dismantle. I also don't want a new(old) gameplay loop to be created where there is too much emphasis/importance/currency placed upon Daily Bounties, thus creating a daily bounty "grind". I don't have time for that. There's already SO MANY bounties I don't have time to collect or even complete on each Destination. Plus what if they start manipulating valuable Bright Dust Bounties to have very complicated objectives, or very time consuming, menial tasks like collecting planetary materials, etc.

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Do we know FOR SURE we can start sharding Eververse Armors?

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 20:38 (1766 days ago) @ Pyromancy
edited by cheapLEY, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 20:50

I'm afraid of finding out later there is an inventory check date, like when they unveiled Collections. With Collections, didn't we find out later there was a 1 time inventory check at a future date and if you started sharding too early you may now be missing items from your Collection? Or at least wasn't it a bit murky when it was first communicated?

No, there wasn't a future date. It was a nebulous date in the past. They guaranteed that everything from Warmind would be in your Collections, even you had already deleted it, but they couldn't guarantee that anything before that would come over if you didn't still have the item when Collections debuted.

EDIT: I think that's the case, anyway. I presented that with much more confidence than I actually have. I don't recall if Warmind was the "guarantee" cutoff, but it was always that they weren't sure exactly how far in the past it would reach.

I'm inclined to trust them on this one. If they say you can safely delete Eververse gear, I'm going to believe them. Plus, deleting excess Eververse crap is a great way to get some Bright Dust.

There's already SO MANY bounties I don't have time to collect or even complete on each Destination. Plus what if they start manipulating Bright Dust Bounties to have very difficult objectives, or very time consuming, menial tasks like collecting planetary materials, etc.

I think a decent solution there would be to make some of those bounties more generic. A lot of those require very specific activities. If they made them more generic kill type bounties that could be completed no matter what you were doing, it might be a little less stressful.

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Are they in your collections? Yes? Then yes.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, June 20, 2019, 10:23 (1766 days ago) @ Pyromancy

Note due to the ever redundant (if memory a serves) "Can not pull from Collections" Restriction, if you shard then you won't be seeing them again in-till this "transmog" option goes live.

Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by FyreWulff, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 15:56 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

If they'd been actually viable the game would have been pay2win, and I can guarantee you a lot less people (including me) would still be playing the game.

The new system, where they're a cosmetic change to whatever armor you're wearing, is a much better way to do it. You get to choose your perks AND wear cosmetic armor that you paid for.

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Bungie deliberately gave Eververse Armors bad perks.

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Wednesday, June 19, 2019, 16:29 (1766 days ago) @ FyreWulff

If they'd been actually viable the game would have been pay2win, and I can guarantee you a lot less people (including me) would still be playing the game.

The new system, where they're a cosmetic change to whatever armor you're wearing, is a much better way to do it. You get to choose your perks AND wear cosmetic armor that you paid for.

Destiny 2 seems like it’s becoming so damn consumer and player friendly. Glad I came back aboard when I did.

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Thanks for bringing hard truths to the sheeple

by Robot Chickens, Thursday, June 20, 2019, 08:45 (1766 days ago) @ Korny

;-)

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