Korny, Could you Translate Please? (Gaming)
What did I just see?
Oh, you ain't seen nothing yet...
by Korny 
, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, July 08, 2019, 09:37 (1747 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
What did I just see?
If that rattled your mind, just wait until you see the trailer they made for their next open world:
DE is clearly looking forward to Death Stranding.
I still haven't seen anything...
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Monday, July 08, 2019, 10:14 (1747 days ago) @ Korny
- No text -
I still haven't seen anything...
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, July 08, 2019, 11:44 (1747 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
Older Figure wearing a Duvirian mask, and what resembles a Tenno Operator suit stands out in a field. He's clearly within the Void, which is another dimension used for FTL travel (think the Immaterium in Warhammer).
He is passed by a massive Orokin machine resembling the Ravenous Maw seen in "The War Within" quest. In the background, you see what look like wrecked ships, before he focuses on the only colored part of the world: An Orokin ship, which very much resembles the Zariman 10-0, which is a ship that got trapped within the Void for years, and which set off much of the events of the Warframe universe. Its presence implies that this is before the Zariman escaped the Void, although at this point all of the Tenno were children, and the figure is much older.
The Figure then turns to see what looks like a Dax soldier, only one far more advanced than anything we see in the game (they were all but wiped out by the Warframes before their technology could possibly advance this far). The Dax charges at him on a mechanical horse.
The unmasked Figure, shown to indeed be an old Tenno (according to the lore, Void exposure made the Tenno unable to age), attempts to use a Void blast to stop the Dax machine, only to find himself completely powerless.
As he recovers from being knocked down, he sees a vision of what looks like a younger version of himself, which he should look like around this time period (or a thousand years in the future rather). The younger (future?) child puts a Tigris shotgun into a portal in the ground in front of him, before being startled by something and dissipating away.
He reaches into the hole, and pulls out what now looks like an ancient version of the Tigris, which he uses to kill the robo-Dax. He then takes the horse, and rides towards the Zariman.
Open World with time travel elements? Watch ur back, Bungo.
A direct translation
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, July 08, 2019, 11:16 (1747 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
What did I just see?
Warframe's biggest hurdle has always been the onboarding process of introducing new players to the game's myriad systems, which seem far more daunting/demanding than they really are. So as part of another major overhaul to that new player experience, DE got together with Dan Trachtenberg (Portal: No Escape, 10 Cloverfield Lane, Black Mirror) to make a new intro cinematic to the game, highlighting the three starting characters, the enemy factions, and some of the background lore (that is implemented into the actual game, whod've thunk?). Best part of the trailer is that there is no fluff. Everything on screen showcases aspects of the game (even an ability augment that isn't in the game yet, but will be soon), and there is even a couple of things there for veterans that new players wouldn't get. Trachtenberg is enough of a Warframe fan that he even talked about how he approached DE when some of the details of the script seemed off from what's actually in the game, only to be reassured by them that those details would be brought in line to match the script.
So here's a play-by-play of what the cinematic shows, and how that's all important or relevant to the game itself:
So it opens with a girl whose village was attacked by the enemy Grineer. Her clothing is reminiscent of the Ostron faction from Earth's open world, but there is a bit more to it (which is shown later).
Running from them, she reaches an old Orokin tower. The Orokin have been dead for hundreds (thousands?) of years, and what happened to them is one of the game's big early mysteries, which you do eventually solve.
She finds what looks like statues of an Excalibur, a Mag, and a Volt, the three Frames you can choose from when you start the game.
She places a Lotus flower at their knees. The Lotus is a major symbol (and emblematic of the theme of the game's overarching theme of love/family) in the game. The cinemtatic itself is narrated by the Lotus, who is a maternal figure that guides you through most of the game.
The game then cuts to a flashback of an Excalibur with his Kubrow, which are one of the "pets" that you can raise in the game, and which all have different abilities (the one in the intro looks to be a Huras Kubrow, which are a stealthier breed that stalk enemies).
They turn to look at what is clearly a Grineer ship, but one that has Orokin-styled colors and ornaments, placing this scene during the Old War era, where the Grineer were slaves of the Orokin. He slaughters them both with some of the game's starting weapons, and two of his abilities (Exalted Blade and Radial Javelin).
The game then cuts to Mag's perspective, as she flies over the battlefield on an Archwing (An Elytron, specifically), which you use in the open worlds and for space combat. When shot down, she uses her Magnetize ability (with an upcoming augment) to catch the enemy bullets before sending them back. The ION Titan would be proud.
The perspective then cuts to Volt, the Electric frame. His thing is obviously speed, and gives us a first ever look at how well the Orokin Dax soldiers (Elite warriors and protectors of the Orokin) fared against Warframes during the Old War. Clearly not much better than the Grineer.
The Warframe abilities are showcased, and one of the neat little touches during that scene is a moment where the Volt is electrocuting a group of soldiers. That exact moment is seen sometime later in the actual game being recreated by children playing with Warframe masks, highlighting how legendary these ancient battles are.
Excalibur then uses an MK-1 Paris with a sweet Crit/Status Riven and Blast build to take out the Grineer dropships, which leads the rest to evacuate (and you can see some of the Orokin ships in the background as well, which are almost exclusively found as derelicts in the game).
The Warframes declare victory, before entering what is later known as "The Second Dream", and they go absent for however many centuries before we cut back to the girl, who pulls her hood back to reveal Somatics on her face, and the closeup also reveals that under her Ostron garb, she was wearing a Zariman Operator suit. She is a Tenno. The camera cuts to her as she uses Transference to dissipate herself, and activate the Warframes.
The cinematic ends, and you, the player, get to choose your starter Frame.
Shooting down ships with a bow and arrow? Wallrunning before slamming down on a swarm of enemies? Lifting a dozen enemies in the air before crumpling their bones together like a can? all stuff that you can do in the game.
So yeah, the cinematic is just one step that they're taking to ease players into the game, as even the recent overhaul of the NPE was still somewhat vague about what's going on.
You want to pass that by me again Holmes?
Between the Trailer, which looks very nice by the way, and what you said - all I got was this.
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/qY2ypLT.gif)
SUPER-RADICAL-COOL MC-AWESOME-*BUUURRRR* ON-FLEEK YEET! AD-LIB LOTTERY: THE GAME mixed with some bad Syfy TV Movie/90's sitcom jargon. I just... aww man. This feeling must of been what it was like for my parents when I was talking about Expanded Universe Star Wars (now called "Legends).
![[image]](https://i.imgur.com/l3Ub2mW.gif)
You want to pass that by me again Holmes?
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, July 08, 2019, 14:57 (1746 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
Between the Trailer, which looks very nice by the way, and what you said - all I got was this.
SUPER-RADICAL-COOL MC-AWESOME-*BUUURRRR* ON-FLEEK YEET! AD-LIB LOTTERY: THE GAME mixed with some bad Syfy TV Movie/90's sitcom jargon. I just... aww man. This feeling must of been what it was like for my parents when I was talking about Expanded Universe Star Wars (now called "Legends).
Let me try again.
Space Ninjas are cool. They have some sick moves and awesome magic, and you can do everything that they do in this video!
See that doggo? You can get one!
See how they combine their powers for cool combos? Grab some friends, and you can do that!
That neat fantasy sci-fi world? It's got a huge story to tell!
And all this can be yours for the low price of absolutely free! No Annual Pass required for any expansions!
Oh Ok. That's nice dear. You have fun. ^_^ (Thank you)
- No text -
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Monday, July 08, 2019, 12:42 (1747 days ago) @ Korny
What did I just see?
Warframe's biggest hurdle has always been the onboarding process of introducing new players to the game's myriad systems, which seem far more daunting/demanding than they really are. So as part of another major overhaul to that new player experience, DE got together with Dan Trachtenberg (Portal: No Escape, 10 Cloverfield Lane, Black Mirror) to make a new intro cinematic to the game, highlighting the three starting characters, the enemy factions, and some of the background lore (that is implemented into the actual game, whod've thunk?). Best part of the trailer is that there is no fluff. Everything on screen showcases aspects of the game (even an ability augment that isn't in the game yet, but will be soon), and there is even a couple of things there for veterans that new players wouldn't get. Trachtenberg is enough of a Warframe fan that he even talked about how he approached DE when some of the details of the script seemed off from what's actually in the game, only to be reassured by them that those details would be brought in line to match the script.
Yes. Yes they do. I'm going to preface this by saying that I played at least a year ago, and haven't played since.
I've spent about 30-40 hours playing warframe, my biggest gripe was that it felt like a grind with no story. I barely touched some story elements at the start and during I believe was a monthly event. Even now, I only know bits and pieces about who the bad guys are and who you even are as a Tenno? Tenino?
I'm all for leaving some mystery in a game, but when I'm 20 hours in I want to know a basic plot of the universe not just who the bad guys are. If this guy is going to help with it I'm all for it. That trailer, with a little bit of Korny's descriptions told me more about the plot than 20 hours of gameplay. I'm not trying to rail on Warframe, it seemed like a fun game, but it felt like a bit of a slog without some reason behind it, at least to me.
A decent mission structure would help that game a lot, when it comes to story. There’s like six mission types (kill everyone, steal data, capture someone, free someone, mine something, survive, etc). They are fun. But then the story missions (from what I’ve seen) are just those missions again with some dialogue, and what you’re actually doing doesn’t seem connected to the story you’re supposed to be getting.
Playing actual bespoke missions for the story and not just redoing the same nodes you’ve already done with some extra dialogue would go a long way.
I like Warframe. I started playing again yesterday. It’s fun. But it basically feels like all I’m doing right now is “unlock every node on this massive map by doing these six mission types over and over again, then maybe we’ll show you some cool shit.”
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Monday, July 08, 2019, 13:22 (1747 days ago) @ cheapLEY
A decent mission structure would help that game a lot, when it comes to story. There’s like six mission types (kill everyone, steal data, capture someone, free someone, mine something, survive, etc). They are fun. But then the story missions (from what I’ve seen) are just those missions again with some dialogue, and what you’re actually doing doesn’t seem connected to the story you’re supposed to be getting.
Playing actual bespoke missions for the story and not just redoing the same nodes you’ve already done with some extra dialogue would go a long way.
I like Warframe. I started playing again yesterday. It’s fun. But it basically feels like all I’m doing right now is “unlock every node on this massive map by doing these six mission types over and over again, then maybe we’ll show you some cool shit.”
I agree. That's how I felt. For 30 hours. I think you are right that it needs to start with some very story driven missions before it opens up to those types.
Introduction to Warframe
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Monday, July 08, 2019, 14:50 (1746 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
A decent mission structure would help that game a lot, when it comes to story. There’s like six mission types (kill everyone, steal data, capture someone, free someone, mine something, survive, etc). They are fun. But then the story missions (from what I’ve seen) are just those missions again with some dialogue, and what you’re actually doing doesn’t seem connected to the story you’re supposed to be getting.
Playing actual bespoke missions for the story and not just redoing the same nodes you’ve already done with some extra dialogue would go a long way.
I like Warframe. I started playing again yesterday. It’s fun. But it basically feels like all I’m doing right now is “unlock every node on this massive map by doing these six mission types over and over again, then maybe we’ll show you some cool shit.”
I agree. That's how I felt. For 30 hours. I think you are right that it needs to start with some very story driven missions before it opens up to those types.
If you don't know the exact path to unlocking the story missions, it takes, on average, 40 hours to get to the structured story missions.
That is a problem for people who want to play for the story, and one that came about as a result of those story missions being added two years after the game came out. If you DO know the exact sequence of events that you have to do to get to those story missions, it takes about seven or eight hours to get into the meat of the game. I've seen MR5s that have completed all of the current story quests, but they followed a guide, and were carried through by a Clanmate.
The issue with that is that the long investment was pretty deliberate on DE's end, and rushing through kills a lot of the attachment that you are supposed to have to the characters/world if you play the game normally and do the side quests as they become available. A huge part of this is that the lore isn't just tucked into flavor text and the Codex (though there is plenty there), but it's a part of the quests themselves, and it fleshes the world out slowly. The attachment and time is what earns the story twists the big oomph. But simply knowing that there really are deeper story missions makes a lot of players impatient about what they're doing, and being dumped into the world without adequate direction is a huge turnoff for those who play, often even 30 hours into the game. You're expected to take pictures of hidden objects, play specific nodes for a specific number of waves, and one of the big triggers for the major story quests is finding a specific enemy that spawns on specific nodes on a certain planet, AFTER you do a seemingly unrelated sidequest (The New Strange), which itself requires you to do specific actions to unlock certain Rail nodes. Again, you can totally miss out on any one of these things and stay locked out of the main story missions.
I think that's a big reason why they push players to get into the Cetus and Fortuna storylines very early into the game, because they are very focused story missions set in the open worlds, which helps give players what Steve has referred to as an "island" to play with. It helps you learn more about the universe, helps level up things like your Archwing, lets you craft weapons and tools early into the game with some solid mods that you'll use for a long time, and showcases the guaranteed reward pools pretty well before you hop off the island to explore the rest of the game.
DE has made great strides in this regard, but the difference in playing alone, and finding someone that can help you is night and day as far as your engagement goes. That's why the community is famous for how helpful it is, because they kind of have to be for the game to draw players in. Open up the chat, and ask for help in doing X, and you're almost guaranteed to get one or two people who will drop what they're doing to help. It's one of the things I enjoy doing in the game, and have specific "non-Nuke" loadouts just for playing with low MRs.
Introduction to Warframe
by narcogen 
, Andover, Massachusetts, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 06:42 (1746 days ago) @ Korny
If you don't know the exact path to unlocking the story missions, it takes, on average, 40 hours to get to the structured story missions.
That is a problem for people who want to play for the story, and one that came about as a result of those story missions being added two years after the game came out. If you DO know the exact sequence of events that you have to do to get to those story missions, it takes about seven or eight hours to get into the meat of the game. I've seen MR5s that have completed all of the current story quests, but they followed a guide, and were carried through by a Clanmate.
I have to admit, I have a hard time reconciling the idea that it takes 30-40 hours to REACH the story missions (even if that is logical based on when they were created as part of the game's development cycle) and the idea that Warframe's lore is "integrated into the game" which I think is intended as a contrast to Destiny.
This sounds like Destiny inverted. When Destiny gets new content, there's story, then grind, then endgame.
This sounds like grind, story, endgame. Which sounds awful, at least to me.
Introduction to Warframe
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 07:10 (1746 days ago) @ narcogen
If you don't know the exact path to unlocking the story missions, it takes, on average, 40 hours to get to the structured story missions.
That is a problem for people who want to play for the story, and one that came about as a result of those story missions being added two years after the game came out. If you DO know the exact sequence of events that you have to do to get to those story missions, it takes about seven or eight hours to get into the meat of the game. I've seen MR5s that have completed all of the current story quests, but they followed a guide, and were carried through by a Clanmate.
I have to admit, I have a hard time reconciling the idea that it takes 30-40 hours to REACH the story missions (even if that is logical based on when they were created as part of the game's development cycle) and the idea that Warframe's lore is "integrated into the game" which I think is intended as a contrast to Destiny.This sounds like Destiny inverted. When Destiny gets new content, there's story, then grind, then endgame.
This sounds like grind, story, endgame. Which sounds awful, at least to me.
The difference is that story isn’t just something you get out of the way on your way to the lone endgame option of the expansion.
Most of the game’s story missions are intended to be introductions to one of the game’s systems and game types, several of which are endgame options along the way. So before you even get to the main story missions, you’ve unlocked about five or six endgame playlists, you’ve defeated several bosses, and you ideally have a favorite/customized Warframe or two. There is a lot of grind involved if you want there to be (and if you want access to a sizeable percentage of the weaponry), but for the most part, if you’re in a clan, the Clan Dojo’s offerings can ease a lot of the pain.
Then you start the “cinematic quests”, which are the core story missions. Each of of them introduces a game changer, in a bit of a literal sense. They not only push the world’s story forward, but they introduce new mechanics into the game that you will use for other endgame offerings, or even the ones you were doing before. It’s a game that builds upon its systems with every quest, but which lets you pause at several points to focus on endgame offerings that you’ve unlocked. And if you want to simply skip to the endgame stuff that you don’t have available to you? Someone in your friend list can simply taxi you over to that content, and help you through it (save for some major story spoiling bits). You won’t just be popping “Immune” numbers from enemies either, because the leveling doesn’t work that way. You can theoretically have a complete endgame build for a character before you ever complete a single quest.
I had a frustrating time contrasting this with Forsaken. I wanted to do Menagerie, but couldn’t until I completely finished Forsaken. The two are completely unrelated, but I can’t engage with a single Year 2 system until I get the Forsaken story out of the way. The great part is that bungie’s gotten better about Light Level, so once I did finish Forsaken, I shot up to 690, which temporarily opened up access to Menagerie, and I was able to have fun doing a run without the stupid level of Grind that Bungie has historically forced on you before you could have fun with the new content.
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 07:24 (1746 days ago) @ Korny
so once I did finish Forsaken, I shot up to 690, which temporarily opened up access to Menagerie, and I was able to have fun doing a run without the stupid level of Grind that Bungie has historically forced on you before you could have fun with the new content.
It's really hard for me to understand this statement from everything you have said about Warframe... You hate the grind that Bungie has forced upon you to play Menagerie yet you shrug off the fact that you have to play 30-40 hours of grind in Warframe just to get to endgame and story missions?
Introduction to Warframe
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 08:02 (1746 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
edited by Korny, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 08:06
so once I did finish Forsaken, I shot up to 690, which temporarily opened up access to Menagerie, and I was able to have fun doing a run without the stupid level of Grind that Bungie has historically forced on you before you could have fun with the new content.
It's really hard for me to understand this statement from everything you have said about Warframe... You hate the grind that Bungie has forced upon you to play Menagerie yet you shrug off the fact that you have to play 30-40 hours of grind in Warframe just to get to endgame and story missions?
The difference is the stuff you’re grinding for, the quests along the way, and the feeling of progress. You will naturally get to the story missions, but you CAN rush there. You will naturally get resources just by playing, but you CAN farm for them. Any and every thing in the game has a direct path to it. In Destiny, you have historically been at the mercy of powerful drops, which you could only get from specific locations once a week. You wanted to do Leviathan when the game came out? God help you if you hadn’t done literal weeks of grind to get to a decent level. And nothing you did could make that grind go faster. Did you miss certain drops one week? You fell further behind. In Warframe, there is no “falling behind”. DE has openly encouraged players to take breaks from the game. Even the Battle Pass, which by design is supposed to encourage players to play often, has a catch-up mechanic that lets you put the game down for a month without falling behind on it.
Again, Bungie has gotten way better about the grind issues; it isn’t remotely as terrible as it was before, and come September, it’ll be even better, but it has always been more respectful of your time in Warframe, because even though you have to wait for things to build, there are dozens of other things to do in the meantime, and you’re always, always, always getting something out of it, and no punishment for stepping away.
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 08:21 (1746 days ago) @ Korny
so once I did finish Forsaken, I shot up to 690, which temporarily opened up access to Menagerie, and I was able to have fun doing a run without the stupid level of Grind that Bungie has historically forced on you before you could have fun with the new content.
It's really hard for me to understand this statement from everything you have said about Warframe... You hate the grind that Bungie has forced upon you to play Menagerie yet you shrug off the fact that you have to play 30-40 hours of grind in Warframe just to get to endgame and story missions?
The difference is the stuff you’re grinding for, the quests along the way, and the feeling of progress. You will naturally get to the story missions, but you CAN rush there. You will naturally get resources just by playing, but you CAN farm for them. Any and every thing in the game has a direct path to it. In Destiny, you have historically been at the mercy of powerful drops, which you could only get from specific locations once a week. You wanted to do Leviathan when the game came out? God help you if you hadn’t done literal weeks of grind to get to a decent level. And nothing you did could make that grind go faster. Did you miss certain drops one week? You fell further behind. In Warframe, there is no “falling behind”. DE has openly encouraged players to take breaks from the game. Even the Battle Pass, which by design is supposed to encourage players to play often, has a catch-up mechanic that lets you put the game down for a month without falling behind on it.
I'm not saying Destiny is perfect or anything, but in my mind, the only difference between the games in "grind" that you have said has been that in Warframe you have the option to grind all at once where as once you have done everything in Destiny for powerful engrams, which I might add is a lot, then you can't do more. I guess I just don't understand the mentality of how Warframe is a better grind other than you can spend a whole lot more time all at once, but it's encouraged not to? You would have to explain to me how the catch up mechanism works I guess.
Again, Bungie has gotten way better about the grind issues; it isn’t remotely as terrible as it was before, and come September, it’ll be even better, but it has always been more respectful of your time in Warframe, because even though you have to wait for things to build, there are dozens of other things to do in the meantime, and you’re always, always, always getting something out of it, and no punishment for stepping away.
I honestly don't understand the "punished for stepping away" mentality about Destiny. Yeah, if you don't get those engrams one week they don't stack up next week. But there is always more engrams to get next week. How is that being punished? Maybe I don't play enough games, but I've only ever had a problem with that if I'm playing like 20+ hours of Destiny a week and that is JUST going for those engrams. maybe that is a "problem" but honestly I think that is a good medium.
Introduction to Warframe
by cheapLEY , Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 08:45 (1746 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
edited by cheapLEY, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 08:51
Warframe has a better grind, at least in terms of making sense. It feels like I’m empowered as a player to do whatever I want, and there’s always a direct path to get the crafting materials I need to get the things I want.
Destiny’s Powerful engrams system is fundamentally broken in my mind. I’m Warframe, you just do whatever you want and you level up. There’s no getting fucked by getting three powerful cloaks in a row. Destiny feels like I have to play the way Bungie wants and literally nothing else if I want to be able to play the newest stuff with everyone else. Warframe allows me to just play the things that look interesting, and I don’t get punished for essentially fucking off. And if there is something specific to grind for, it tells you exactly what materials you need and where to get them, none of this “I don’t know, figure it out, maybe EP is dropping the shotgun this week, maybe not!” shit that Bungie seems so fond of.
I won’t tell you Warframe is objectively a better grind, but it sure feels like it wants it’s players to have fun however they want more than Destiny does.
Edit: I will also add that the grind in Warframe feels “worth it” in a way that Destiny doesn’t. Warframe gives you so many options and mods and new toys that fundamentally change the way you can play the game. Destiny never does that. A power level 50 Hunter plays exactly the same as a power level 750 Hunter. The number is arbitrary and you don’t really get any game changers along the way. My level 27 Excalibur has at least two distinct builds right now that feel pretty different from each other, and I basically just started.
There’s an argument to be made that’s a good thing, but I certainly don’t think so. Destiny’s endgame comes down to farming for guns with slightly different rolls that don’t matter all that much, whereas Warframe lets you really find the exactly the playstyle you want.
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 09:19 (1746 days ago) @ cheapLEY
Warframe has a better grind, at least in terms of making sense. It feels like I’m empowered as a player to do whatever I want, and there’s always a direct path to get the crafting materials I need to get the things I want.
Destiny’s Powerful engrams system is fundamentally broken in my mind. I’m Warframe, you just do whatever you want and you level up. There’s no getting fucked by getting three powerful cloaks in a row. Destiny feels like I have to play the way Bungie wants and literally nothing else if I want to be able to play the newest stuff with everyone else. Warframe allows me to just play the things that look interesting, and I don’t get punished for essentially fucking off. And if there is something specific to grind for, it tells you exactly what materials you need and where to get them, none of this “I don’t know, figure it out, maybe EP is dropping the shotgun this week, maybe not!” shit that Bungie seems so fond of.
I agree that Warframe has more input in some areas when it comes to getting certain things. And Bungie has left that more open, EP is a good example. Apart from getting the same item repeatable, I don't feel the same with the powerful engram system at all. I can play a very wide range of things and still level up.
I won’t tell you Warframe is objectively a better grind, but it sure feels like it wants it’s players to have fun however they want more than Destiny does.
Edit: I will also add that the grind in Warframe feels “worth it” in a way that Destiny doesn’t. Warframe gives you so many options and mods and new toys that fundamentally change the way you can play the game. Destiny never does that. A power level 50 Hunter plays exactly the same as a power level 750 Hunter. The number is arbitrary and you don’t really get any game changers along the way. My level 27 Excalibur has at least two distinct builds right now that feel pretty different from each other, and I basically just started.
That wasn't at all my experience. I tried to mod my suit and guns differently to see if I can try an new experience but it didn't feel all that different. Maybe I was doing it wrong, maybe I need an online tutorial somewhere to show me how, but it wasn't easy. And I only ever got 3ish guns, one I crafted I think and the other I bought. Then I spent 10 hours leveling the gun up. I guess I felt like even after 40 some hours I was stuck with slightly modified base gear.
There’s an argument to be made that’s a good thing, but I certainly don’t think so. Destiny’s endgame comes down to farming for guns with slightly different rolls that don’t matter all that much, whereas Warframe lets you really find the exactly the playstyle you want.
I donno, I kinda like my Auto rifle + shotgun + War rigs agressive titan. I play it all the time, it's my style. I don't see many people play it. I'm sure I need to play more Warframe. And maybe I just need to invest more into it, but personally, I don't have the time to spend that much just to feel like I'm not running base gear.
Warframe isn’t for everyone, and it’s not even remotely good about explaining itself. I won’t tell anyone who played for 40 hours and didn’t like it that they’re wrong.
I’ve had Korny leading me through. Without him, I wouldn’t be playing, because who has the time to figure all that shit out alone?
For me though, the grind it Warframe feels worth it, like there’s some direction to it. The grind in Destiny feels like dull busywork that I have to do before I am allowed to do what I want. That’s partly the case in Warframe, too. Unlocking all these nodes is not the most captivating thing ever. But I still feel like I’m getting stuff along the way that will be useful. I’m getting cool mods, lots of materials for crafting later, the occasional rare item that I can sell for Platinum.
I’ll probably always wish that Warframe was a bit more player friendly and had a more straightforward way to get into the story. And I’ll probably always wish that Destiny felt like it respected my time better and gave me more options to play the way I want (both I terms of character builds and the leveling grind).
Introduction to Warframe
by Korny , Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 10:43 (1746 days ago) @ cheapLEY
Warframe isn’t for everyone, and it’s not even remotely good about explaining itself. I won’t tell anyone who played for 40 hours and didn’t like it that they’re wrong.
I’ve had Korny leading me through. Without him, I wouldn’t be playing, because who has the time to figure all that shit out alone?
The game very much encourages (demands, at times) playing with others. But it does so through mainly positive pressures. Remember how I had a Nightmare mission available on a node you didn't? Or how we split up our debuffs to open that vault for the Corrupted mod? Or how we had more choices between rewards when cracking Relics together? The game rewards not going it alone, and it definitely makes it easier to find people who are willing to help you through early game hurdles.
For me though, the grind it Warframe feels worth it, like there’s some direction to it. The grind in Destiny feels like dull busywork that I have to do before I am allowed to do what I want. That’s partly the case in Warframe, too. Unlocking all these nodes is not the most captivating thing ever. But I still feel like I’m getting stuff along the way that will be useful. I’m getting cool mods, lots of materials for crafting later, the occasional rare item that I can sell for Platinum.
Remember when I failed to equip a Relic? The game was still rewarding me with Void Traces that I could use to upgrade my next one. The run wasn't a waste for me, because I was still making progress. Everything in the game will reward you in some way, big or small. Sure, in Destiny, you can get engrams from enemies in any activity, but if the rolls are weak, or the weapons suck, then all you get from it is some weapon parts and a Legendary shard for an hour of playtime while you try to grind out a strike weapon or a Catalyst. In Warframe, you can simply pick up the Blueprint for the item that you want, or the one you already have the resources for, and you get to it.
I think the weapon frames and Menagerie recipes in Destiny are a really great way to implement a similar system, but it would be better if you weren't railroaded into those two specific activities. The Lumina quest sort of has shades of this, where you can do several activities to make progress, but part of the grind was just unreasonable for someone like me, who doesn't want to spend the entire evening grinding out Blind Well (though I did later on open up my first Forge).
I’ll probably always wish that Warframe was a bit more player friendly and had a more straightforward way to get into the story. And I’ll probably always wish that Destiny felt like it respected my time better and gave me more options to play the way I want (both I terms of character builds and the leveling grind).
I mean, it's been their biggest problem for six years, and one they've been trying to address multiple times, but yeah, it'll likely always have a steep barrier for entry. The systems just can't be streamlined much more without sacrificing the very complexity that makes them great and distinct. I do hope that this year's big New Player Experience overhaul succeeds in making the game more appealing to a casual audience, but ultimately, it'll never be for everyone, and that's ok.
But come on, Mac, plug a keyboard in!
Ragashingo made this post the other day about how much fun he had playing with other people for the Lumina quest.
The best nights I've ever had in Destiny have all been nights in which I made exactly zero meaningful progress towards anything. It's nights where many people are online, and everyone has something they're chasing. Nights where I've jumped from a full Escalation Protocol instance into a full team for quick play, then into Gambit, then over to a Nightfall, then back into Crucible, etc. And every time that's happened, it's always been when I'm not at any appropriate quest steps for any of that, where I've mostly done my powerful drops for the week. The most I've ever accomplished from any of those great nights is some bounties and a few Prime Engrams. And, on those nights, it's never mattered, because they have always been amazingly fun. They've been nights that make me actually marvel at how awesome Destiny is when you're with a group that enjoys jumping from activity to activity and sampling the whole package. It's really like no game I've ever played before.
It's becoming much more difficult for nights like that to happen. Every time I take a break and then come back, I feel so far behind, and doing things that aren't "worth it," that won't make that stupid little number get bigger feel like a waste of time.
I'm not going to sit here and tell anyone that Warframe doesn't have it's share of feeling left behind, the fear of missing out, etc. I'm not anywhere near far enough in to judge how I'd feel about the game if I had as many hours in it as I do Destiny.
I can tell you that so far, nothing feels like a waste of time. I don't feel like I'm being punished for not exploring Cetus, like I do when I miss a few Powerful drops for the week in Destiny. I just play whatever I want and level up. I'm sure that changes in the end game. I'm sure there are plenty of instances of highly specific paths to get the thing you want, but I think that's the difference--it's to get the thing you want, not make the number bigger. I have no problem running raid repeatedly for a shot at Anarchy or One Thousands Voices. I do have a problem being handed homework every week if I want to keep up and be able to play the cool surprise missions like Zero Hour with my friends.
I also think the clan stuff in Warframe does a whole lot more for that game that the basically nonexistent clan stuff in Destiny. Warframe really seems to encourage and reward clan play. The research/resource collection stuff seems awesome, and it's cool to actually see something that rewards the whole clan coming together to make blueprints available for everyone. Destiny's clan features need a complete overhaul in my opinion, and I hope they look to what Warframe does in some ways. A clan area in the Tower much like the Dojo in Warframe would be absolutely incredible.
In any case, as I said last night, I don't think Destiny will every be fundamentally different than it currently is in that regard. But I sure hope there are some people at Bungie playing Warframe and thinking about better character customization. Their touting of the reintroduction of actual RPG mechanics has me interested in Shadowkeep. I hope it's as big a revelation as Forsaken was.
Introduction to Warframe
by MacAddictXIV , Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 09, 2019, 07:19 (1746 days ago) @ Korny
A decent mission structure would help that game a lot, when it comes to story. There’s like six mission types (kill everyone, steal data, capture someone, free someone, mine something, survive, etc). They are fun. But then the story missions (from what I’ve seen) are just those missions again with some dialogue, and what you’re actually doing doesn’t seem connected to the story you’re supposed to be getting.
Playing actual bespoke missions for the story and not just redoing the same nodes you’ve already done with some extra dialogue would go a long way.
I like Warframe. I started playing again yesterday. It’s fun. But it basically feels like all I’m doing right now is “unlock every node on this massive map by doing these six mission types over and over again, then maybe we’ll show you some cool shit.”
I agree. That's how I felt. For 30 hours. I think you are right that it needs to start with some very story driven missions before it opens up to those types.
If you don't know the exact path to unlocking the story missions, it takes, on average, 40 hours to get to the structured story missions.
That is a problem for people who want to play for the story, and one that came about as a result of those story missions being added two years after the game came out. If you DO know the exact sequence of events that you have to do to get to those story missions, it takes about seven or eight hours to get into the meat of the game. I've seen MR5s that have completed all of the current story quests, but they followed a guide, and were carried through by a Clanmate.
It wasn't so much that I was playing for the story, it was that I heard that Warframe had a good story but that I just never really got to a "story line." Yes, there were bits and pieces here and there, but nothing that I would call even a background of your character.
The issue with that is that the long investment was pretty deliberate on DE's end, and rushing through kills a lot of the attachment that you are supposed to have to the characters/world if you play the game normally and do the side quests as they become available. A huge part of this is that the lore isn't just tucked into flavor text and the Codex (though there is plenty there), but it's a part of the quests themselves, and it fleshes the world out slowly. The attachment and time is what earns the story twists the big oomph. But simply knowing that there really are deeper story missions makes a lot of players impatient about what they're doing, and being dumped into the world without adequate direction is a huge turnoff for those who play, often even 30 hours into the game. You're expected to take pictures of hidden objects, play specific nodes for a specific number of waves, and one of the big triggers for the major story quests is finding a specific enemy that spawns on specific nodes on a certain planet, AFTER you do a seemingly unrelated sidequest (The New Strange), which itself requires you to do specific actions to unlock certain Rail nodes. Again, you can totally miss out on any one of these things and stay locked out of the main story missions.
Having played Destiny, I get the specific things to do specific things that is kinda figured out by the community, but at least I was trained on how to do those things and had already been to the locations. I had google how to take a picture of hidden objects because I couldn't find it anywhere in the controls or help files. Again, I don't mean to rail on Warframe, but this is just expressing what frustrated me about the game and what really held me back from wanting to like it.
I think that's a big reason why they push players to get into the Cetus and Fortuna storylines very early into the game, because they are very focused story missions set in the open worlds, which helps give players what Steve has referred to as an "island" to play with. It helps you learn more about the universe, helps level up things like your Archwing, lets you craft weapons and tools early into the game with some solid mods that you'll use for a long time, and showcases the guaranteed reward pools pretty well before you hop off the island to explore the rest of the game.
I believe I got to this "island" at around 40 hours of play. And to me, I felt like I had done the meat of the game at least 10 times over. It was getting very grindy at this point but at the same time I had managed to get a side quest or something, I honestly don't know all I know was that it was different. But even that quest required that I access planets that required more grind to unlock. I slowly stopped playing at that point.
DE has made great strides in this regard, but the difference in playing alone, and finding someone that can help you is night and day as far as your engagement goes. That's why the community is famous for how helpful it is, because they kind of have to be for the game to draw players in. Open up the chat, and ask for help in doing X, and you're almost guaranteed to get one or two people who will drop what they're doing to help. It's one of the things I enjoy doing in the game, and have specific "non-Nuke" loadouts just for playing with low MRs.
I can get this, but why oh why would you keep playing from accessing a public area until you are like 20 hours into the game? And why would you make a chat window (obviously made for PC players) the only form of communication? There was no way in hell I was going to post into a live chat via a controller. I should have played this with DBOers.
I also want to add that I know this is a free game but I think the icing on the cake for me was feeling like I was grinding for components of this cool gear and finally getting what was required after 10 hours of searching and unlocking stuff only to put it in my machine to assemble it and have it take more than 2 days to "build" or I can pay to do it instantly. I basically lost my shit at that point.
Anyway, the game play was fun, the shooting was pretty good as was the abilities. I just felt an instant 200+ hours of investment level within 10 hours of playing the game. That never feels good.