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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers (Destiny)

by cheapLEY @, Monday, July 29, 2019, 20:44 (1704 days ago)

Datto posted a new video, in which he rants about broken supers. It's no secret that I hate Datto. I hate that Bungie seems to listen to him, as I don't agree with him often. I don't completely agree with a lot of this video, either, but he does make some good points (even if he sounds like a whiny child while he makes them).

He spends the first half of the video complaining about roaming supers and power ammo in Crucible and Gambit. I think the roaming supers are too strong, for sure, and it does sucks that games against competent teams can turn into them just chaining supers on you for six minutes. I'm all for toning it down. But holy hell, they are not as bad as everyone wants to make them seem. He highlights the problem in his video (although not intentionally): whenever an enemy pops a super, everyone runs! They scatter, and let the enemy super pick them off one by one. It's inevitable. If people learned to stand their ground with their team and all shoot the glowy dude, they die pretty damn fast still. We pulled off some really great super shutdowns without counter-supers or abilities over the last week of Iron Banner. It's definitely possible. It's not the easiest thing in the world, but it shouldn't be incredibly easy, either.

The later part of his video is the part I actually really agree with. Well of Radiance is straight up the worst super that's ever been in Destiny. It's just boring. Here, stand on this glowy thing and shoot the boss with Whisper (DARCI now, I guess, or a grenade launcher) until it dies. That's not exactly engaging. And, like Whisper itself, it's made it so that bosses are either incredibly easy with it, or they straight up require the use of it. As much as I love them, it's the same problem Orpheus Rigs have. I think exotics that grant super energy back just shouldn't exist.

I get that this game is partly about the power fantasy, but it feels like the focus is drifting farther away from actual player skill and good play, and rather just on making sure you have the supers that can give you infinite orbs and huge damage modifiers.

I have no doubt that finding a balance is difficult in this regard, but I do think it's something Bungie really needs to work on.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, July 29, 2019, 22:21 (1704 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Personally, I think supers really are as bad as he makes them out to be. It’s gotten to the point where I’m thinking I just might be done with crucible. I play competitive(ish) shooters because I want to competitively shoot weapons, not deal with chaining, spawn-killing supers for 6 minutes straight.

I doubt it will ever happen, but I’d be thrilled if we got a mode that didn’t have supers at all. They’re the least fun, least rewarding part of the PvP game, IMO.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, July 29, 2019, 22:38 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Personally, I think supers really are as bad as he makes them out to be. It’s gotten to the point where I’m thinking I just might be done with crucible. I play competitive(ish) shooters because I want to competitively shoot weapons, not deal with chaining, spawn-killing supers for 6 minutes straight.

I doubt it will ever happen, but I’d be thrilled if we got a mode that didn’t have supers at all. They’re the least fun, least rewarding part of the PvP game, IMO.

I can’t speak to the situation now, as I haven’t played the game since December.

But from before, I found supers very rewarding. You could make a great play and turn around a competitive game with yours, and monitoring and planning around who on the enemy team had their supers was a really interesting variable to how you approach play, especially in countdown.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 05:29 (1704 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 05:35

Personally, I think supers really are as bad as he makes them out to be. It’s gotten to the point where I’m thinking I just might be done with crucible. I play competitive(ish) shooters because I want to competitively shoot weapons, not deal with chaining, spawn-killing supers for 6 minutes straight.

I doubt it will ever happen, but I’d be thrilled if we got a mode that didn’t have supers at all. They’re the least fun, least rewarding part of the PvP game, IMO.


I can’t speak to the situation now, as I haven’t played the game since December.

But from before, I found supers very rewarding. You could make a great play and turn around a competitive game with yours, and monitoring and planning around who on the enemy team had their supers was a really interesting variable to how you approach play, especially in countdown.

The situation is a fair bit different these days. 6v6 (on maps designed for 4v4) means more orb generation within a team, more spawn camping, and even straight-up spawning in front of an enemy who’s already firing in your direction.

Plus several of the roaming supers have gotten significantly stronger since year 1. Middle tree Nightstalker was near unstoppable for 6 months, and it’s still very strong. Bottom tree Striker is able to go crashing into an enemy spawn and get a bunch of kills, then run all the way over to the other spawn and catch the enemies appearing there too (on some maps). And bottom tree dawn blade now moves much faster than it used to, plus the homing fire bursts... it’s crazy.

Add all the other insta-kill supers into the mix, and the crucible has become an absolute shit show.

*edit*

Just as an example, it is not at all uncommon for an enemy to kill me with there super (starting the chain reaction of supers going off) and then my next 4-6 deaths are all from enemy supers. It’s just a shitty feeling to go up against opponents and outplay them in every gunfight, and then get steamrolled by a bunch of win buttons.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 06:59 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Plus several of the roaming supers have gotten significantly stronger since year 1. Middle tree Nightstalker was near unstoppable for 6 months, and it’s still very strong. Bottom tree Striker is able to go crashing into an enemy spawn and get a bunch of kills, then run all the way over to the other spawn and catch the enemies appearing there too (on some maps). And bottom tree dawn blade now moves much faster than it used to, plus the homing fire bursts... it’s crazy.

I'm not going to argue with the fact that there are some good roaming supers. I will say that at least everyone class has one that is good. That hasn't been true in the past where one class was just locked into being left out of the awesome super meta.

Add all the other insta-kill supers into the mix, and the crucible has become an absolute shit show.

I honestly think it's great that there are supers that can instant kill roaming supers, it adds to the rock paper scissors of supers.

*edit*

Just as an example, it is not at all uncommon for an enemy to kill me with there super (starting the chain reaction of supers going off) and then my next 4-6 deaths are all from enemy supers. It’s just a shitty feeling to go up against opponents and outplay them in every gunfight, and then get steamrolled by a bunch of win buttons.

That is always a shitty feeling. But as I mentioned above, everyone has one of those awesome supers and both teams are totally capable of doing it. I understand people not liking that style of play, but no one should feel it's unfair. Gun skill is one thing, proper use of supers and team orb collection is another. Maybe it should be more balanced so there isn't a constant string of supers, but if you don't like it then use a counter super and be better at gun play so you get your super first :D

Personally, I like the feel of supers because it honestly feels makes me feel like I'm helping the team. I'm not the best at gun play so ability use levels the playfield for me. Some might say that this is a First Person Shooter, but I think it's way more than that.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 08:59 (1704 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Plus several of the roaming supers have gotten significantly stronger since year 1. Middle tree Nightstalker was near unstoppable for 6 months, and it’s still very strong. Bottom tree Striker is able to go crashing into an enemy spawn and get a bunch of kills, then run all the way over to the other spawn and catch the enemies appearing there too (on some maps). And bottom tree dawn blade now moves much faster than it used to, plus the homing fire bursts... it’s crazy.


I'm not going to argue with the fact that there are some good roaming supers. I will say that at least everyone class has one that is good. That hasn't been true in the past where one class was just locked into being left out of the awesome super meta.

Add all the other insta-kill supers into the mix, and the crucible has become an absolute shit show.


I honestly think it's great that there are supers that can instant kill roaming supers, it adds to the rock paper scissors of supers.

*edit*

Just as an example, it is not at all uncommon for an enemy to kill me with there super (starting the chain reaction of supers going off) and then my next 4-6 deaths are all from enemy supers. It’s just a shitty feeling to go up against opponents and outplay them in every gunfight, and then get steamrolled by a bunch of win buttons.


That is always a shitty feeling. But as I mentioned above, everyone has one of those awesome supers and both teams are totally capable of doing it. I understand people not liking that style of play, but no one should feel it's unfair. Gun skill is one thing, proper use of supers and team orb collection is another. Maybe it should be more balanced so there isn't a constant string of supers, but if you don't like it then use a counter super and be better at gun play so you get your super first :D

Personally, I like the feel of supers because it honestly feels makes me feel like I'm helping the team. I'm not the best at gun play so ability use levels the playfield for me. Some might say that this is a First Person Shooter, but I think it's way more than that.

Yeah my problem with it is not a lack of balance between the classes, it’s that supers IMO are not fun or rewarding gameplay. It’s just spammy and cheap. I get the idea of giving players a moment to feel extra powerful, and I can tolerate or even enjoy that dynamic in small doses, but Destiny PvP at the moment has slammed waaaaay too far in the other direction for my taste. And I believe it’s done specifically to negate skill gaps. It is actively working against players being rewarded for playing more skillfully than their opponents. I’m not saying that a better team won’t win more often than lesser-skilled opponents. But to do so, they need to overcome the great equalizer of all these rampant insta-kill abilities that are disproportionately low risk/high reward. It’s Destiny’s version of rubber-banding in Mario Kart.

As a Bungie Dev said to me not too long ago, “if people want to play a game where the better player always wins, then Destiny is NOT for them”. For my taste, that’s awful.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:02 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Personally, I like the feel of supers because it honestly feels makes me feel like I'm helping the team. I'm not the best at gun play so ability use levels the playfield for me. Some might say that this is a First Person Shooter, but I think it's way more than that.


Yeah my problem with it is not a lack of balance between the classes, it’s that supers IMO are not fun or rewarding gameplay. It’s just spammy and cheap. I get the idea of giving players a moment to feel extra powerful, and I can tolerate or even enjoy that dynamic in small doses, but Destiny PvP at the moment has slammed waaaaay too far in the other direction for my taste. And I believe it’s done specifically to negate skill gaps. It is actively working against players being rewarded for playing more skillfully than their opponents. I’m not saying that a better team won’t win more often than lesser-skilled opponents. But to do so, they need to overcome the great equalizer of all these rampant insta-kill abilities that are disproportionately low risk/high reward. It’s Destiny’s version of rubber-banding in Mario Kart.

I guess this is just where the casual player is getting rewarded. Which is kinda funny for how much we bash Bungie for how much listen to the streamers instead of us casuals.

As a Bungie Dev said to me not too long ago, “if people want to play a game where the better player always wins, then Destiny is NOT for them”. For my taste, that’s awful.

Honestly, I wish there was an easy way for us both to be happy. But I also don't know how that can be easily balanced in the Destiny meta.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:29 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I’m confused though…

Better playing teams get more supers. It’s a positive feedback loop. So how does it help shrink the skill gap? If anything it would give the worse team less of a chance.

I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:51 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

As a Bungie Dev said to me not too long ago, “if people want to play a game where the better player always wins, then Destiny is NOT for them”. For my taste, that’s awful.

This statement has been true forever, in terms of Bungie games (it was true of Marathon, it was probably true of Myth, it was true of Halo, and it's true of Destiny) It would have been true of Oni, if the multiplayer had ever gotten good enough to be released.

And while I totally get where you're coming from, I wouldn't have played ANY of these games if it hadn't been true.

I'll be sad if you actually quit playing PvP. :(

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 12:20 (1704 days ago) @ Claude Errera

As a Bungie Dev said to me not too long ago, “if people want to play a game where the better player always wins, then Destiny is NOT for them”. For my taste, that’s awful.


This statement has been true forever, in terms of Bungie games (it was true of Marathon, it was probably true of Myth, it was true of Halo, and it's true of Destiny) It would have been true of Oni, if the multiplayer had ever gotten good enough to be released.

And while I totally get where you're coming from, I wouldn't have played ANY of these games if it hadn't been true.

I'll be sad if you actually quit playing PvP. :(

Do you not find that specific statement is a lot more true now than ever before?

I LOVED BTB in Halo 2-Reach. It had a lot of crazy stuff going on with vehicles and heavy weapons all over the map. Every now and then someone would climb in a tank and go on an absolute tear. But there were far more occasions where an enemy tank would be rolling around and I, without any teamwork or communication, could throw together a plan to take it out. It wouldn’t work every time, but I usually felt like I had a reasonable chance of out-playing my opponent, even if the odds were in their favour. There would be some aspect of the terrain that would allow me to sneak up and get close for a highjack, or a power weapon somewhere on the map that I could conceivably get to. There were usually options. And on the flip side, the enemy player in the tank needed to consider those potential counters, and actively work to negate them in order to maintain the advantage that the tank could provide.

In Destiny, none of there just isn’t that strategic layer. You just press 1 button and the player(s) in front of you dies, near instantaneously. It is possible to screw up with your super, and it is sometimes possible for the enemy to effectively counter (usually with a super of their own). It just all feels so thin and thoughtless and spammy to me. And again, I’m totally cool with a bit of that. But IB matches now consistently devolve into bouts of trying to out spawn-camp each other with roaming supers. It doesn’t always happen, but frequently enough to ruin much of the overall experience for me. Which is a shame, because there is a lot about D2 PvP that I really enjoy.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:55 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by Ragashingo, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 11:10

I’m curious, are you just flat out against the concept of an unskilled player being able to kill a skilled player with a Super?

I get that nearly killing someone only to get Fists of Panic-ed triggers a feeling of disappointment/unfairness, but even with a maxed out Super recharge build I think you only get two supers a game unless you are racking up the kills / Control point captures. Team orb generation can help with that but really only give you a third Super, I would imagine. Even if the unskilled player is doing spectacularly well with their Supers, they only get maybe a minute and a half of Super time vs eight and a half minutes where they have no advantage. And, really, it’s far less than that because the other team can use their Supers to shutdown enemy Supers.

In the end, it should all work out. The better shooter will have an advantage for the majority of the game. And skilled players get their own Supers which they should also be better at using. I guess I don’t see Supers as a rubber band mechanism because it should at least cancel out. What’s left should be player skill and team coordination. For every time the enemy chains Supers one after the other, your team should have the same chance to return the favor. Even your team getting shut down by Supers or heavy ammo is part of the other team being skilled at map control. Countering one Super with another may not require a lot of button presses, but it generally requires situational awareness and some amount of good timing.

I think there’s clearly something to be said for wanting a game with Destiny’s gunplay without having to deal with Supers. A more pure shooter, if you will. Counterstrike and Destiny both exist because there are players who enjoy one style over the other. What I don’t agree with is the concept that Supers give unskilled players an advantage. Yes, in that moment the Void Titan blocks your rocket then kills you with a shield throw he has a temporary advantage. But you get the same advantage and being better at the shooting aspects you will get a Super advantage more often.

So, if anything, I think maybe the opposite is true: Destiny favors skilled players and teams by providing them with more Super opportunities while unskilled players who aren’t winning as many gun battles are also subject to enemy Supers more often which costs them positional advantage and things like Control points.

Coming back around to my initial question, I feel like maybe your real beef with Destiny is that you think the unskilled player should never ever have an advantage. If that’s the case, I think the answer is more that some other game will make you happier and less a problem with Destiny itself.

Back during the D1 beta on First Light I realized I was getting sniped a lot but then realized I could swap to a sniper rifle myself. Since then, I’ve always thought of Destiny’s Crucible gameplay as enforcing balance through superior firepower. And aside from the occasionally misbalanced Super or ability, I do think that Destiny maintains a good level of balance, fairness, and respect for player skill.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 12:07 (1704 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I’m curious, are you just flat out against the concept of an unskilled player being able to kill a skilled player with a Super?

I get that nearly killing someone only to get Fists of Panic-ed triggers a feeling of disappointment/unfairness, but even with a maxed out Super recharge build I think you only get two supers a game unless you are racking up the kills / Control point captures. Team orb generation can help with that but really only give you a third Super, I would imagine. Even if the unskilled player is doing spectacularly well with their Supers, they only get maybe a minute and a half of Super time vs eight and a half minutes where they have no advantage. And, really, it’s far less than that because the other team can use their Supers to shutdown enemy Supers.

In the end, it should all work out. The better shooter will have an advantage for the majority of the game. And skilled players get their own Supers which they should also be better at using. I guess I don’t see Supers as a rubber band mechanism because it should at least cancel out. What’s left should be player skill and team coordination. For every time the enemy chains Supers one after the other, your team should have the same chance to return the favor. Even your team getting shut down by Supers or heavy ammo is part of the other team being skilled at map control. Countering one Super with another may not require a lot of button presses, but it generally requires situational awareness and some amount of good timing.

I think there’s clearly something to be said for wanting a game with Destiny’s gunplay without having to deal with Supers. A more pure shooter, if you will. Counterstrike and Destiny both exist because there are players who enjoy one style over the other. What I don’t agree with is the concept that Supers give unskilled players an advantage. Yes, in that moment the Void Titan blocks your rocket then kills you with a shield throw he has a temporary advantage. But you get the same advantage and being better at the shooting aspects you will get a Super advantage more often.

So, if anything, I think maybe the opposite is true: Destiny favors skilled players and teams by providing them with more Super opportunities while unskilled players who aren’t winning as many gun battles are also subject to enemy Supers more often which costs them positional advantage and things like Control points.

Coming back around to my initial question, I feel like maybe your real beef with Destiny is that you think the unskilled player should never ever have an advantage. If that’s the case, I think the answer is more that some other game will make you happier and less a problem with Destiny itself.

Back during the D1 beta on First Light I realized I was getting sniped a lot but then realized I could swap to a sniper rifle myself. Since then, I’ve always thought of Destiny’s Crucible gameplay as enforcing balance through superior firepower. And aside from the occasionally misbalanced Super or ability, I do think that Destiny maintains a good level of balance, fairness, and respect for player skill.

For me, it’s less about the final score at the end of the match, and more about the many instances of moment to moment frustration that come from dying repeatedly without being outplayed. As Cody pointed out, a player who is getting more kills between supers will ultimately get their super back more frequently, thus they’ll dish out even more super kills than they’ll take (on average). My gripe is that I can do absolutely everything right in an individual encounter, from my positioning and movement to communication to gunplay, and die because the enemy has an instant-win button ready and I didn’t at that moment. And more often than not, there is absolutely nothing I could do do avoid that death.

I’m not against supers as a blanket idea. I thought they generally added an interesting wrinkle to Trials in D1 because you would generally only get 1 super per match, so there was a real strategic layer to using them in a way that was most impactful. Plus, most of a Trials game would progress without supers being part of the equation, so there was a sort of tension building towards the 1 or 2 rounds when all the supers would suddenly come out. But in D2 Quickplay or Iron Banner, it’s almost non-stop supers after the first couple minutes, and that is just gameplay that I don’t fin fun it rewarding, whether I’m on the receiving end or dishing it out.

And just to be totally clear, I’m not calling for this to change or be removed, if people like it. I just think the game would benefit from some kind of mode that supported a more controlled, less chaotic form of gameplay.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 13:28 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

It's probably that I play with a lower-tier in general, but I haven't really experienced the non-stop supers. Thank goodness for supers, though. Without them, the chance of me contributing positively to a game every now and then would drop precipitously. I've seen you play. You get to experience the thrill of victory in steady doses. I'm sorry that gets interrupted, but your experience in upside down from mine. I'm happy to break even in any game. Every third game I might get a double-kill with a super. A lot of times I'm the glowy guy roaming an empty map in search of some schmuck who didn't hear my super pop. When I find one or two it's a nice change of pace.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 14:03 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Honestly, I think you’re focusing a bit too much on a single worst case encounter. Just some questions that come to mind:

Why did the enemy have their Super and you didn’t have yours? Did you just get through wiping their team with your Super? Is your opponent outgunning your team so he got his Super first? Is his build Super focused and yours focuses on something like grenades that you’ll end up using a lot more often? Was your play really as good as you thought it was? We’re you baited in close? Is your load out geared to close range combat making you powerful but also vulnerable? Did you break cover for a sure kill only to have the tables turned on you?

Point is, focusing on a single encounter does make Supers appear broken, but a whole lot goes into why someone has a Super ready and why it is effective given your position and weapons. Really, I dislike the notion that Supers are just a skill-less win buttons. They are powerful, but even in the worst cases you’re only getting nuked because that player held off nuking you in other encounters. Or he was already outplaying your team using normal gun skills and his superior skill gave him another advantage over you. And even when it’s just a newb throwing a tracking Nova Bomb at you, it’s only one out of twenty to forty encounters you’ll have in a single match. Things not going your way is just gonna happen from time to time when you put players up against other players.

I do hear you about Super frequency, though. To me that’s just a different sort of issue from losing any given battle to a Super. Like you, I’d love a slower paced mode. I’d love a new Trials mode where the rules and fewer players make Super good usage more important and more costly. I’d even be for a return to a somewhat slower paced Crucible in general similar to what we had with D2 at launch. Less Supers, less power weapons, less insta-kill abilities.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 14:19 (1704 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Mostly, I already have my super, but I run tether to counter other supers, only tether is so fucking useless because of it’s delay that it borders on stupid. Everyone else can have a super that instantly kills anyone close on activation, whereas I can hit directly at a Striker’s feet, and their out of rage before the stupid thing decides to activate.

So mostly I don’t waste my Super as a quick reaction and only when I know I can lay a good trap, which isn’t very often.

It’s ridiculous that Titans get a grenade that shuts down Supers more effectively than a subclass that is designed explicitly to do that.

In all honestly, I mostly run tether because that’s the one that has invisibility on dodge, and with my full Paragon mod build, I lean on that crutch pretty hard.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 15:40 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY


So mostly I don’t waste my Super as a quick reaction and only when I know I can lay a good trap, which isn’t very often.

But when you can, you do! We've seen the videos. :)

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 16:07 (1703 days ago) @ Kermit

Yeah, but you don’t see all the times I miss completely (I shot one completely off the map the other night), or the times when I make a decent shot but the enemy gets away before it actually activates.

I only clip the ones that make me look good. (:

I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 15:51 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY

In all honestly, I mostly run tether because that’s the one that has invisibility on dodge, and with my full Paragon mod build, I lean on that crutch pretty hard.

Why not spectral blades, if all you really want is invisibility?

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 16:05 (1703 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The invisibility with Spectral Blades is too difficult to proc in tense battles. With top tree tether I just dodge. I suppose I could practice and make it work.

I do also enjoy laying traps with tethers, they’re just not always particularly effective.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 08:31 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The invisibility with Spectral Blades is too difficult to proc in tense battles. With top tree tether I just dodge. I suppose I could practice and make it work.

Spectral blades wins against striker every time unless the SB is absolutely terrible.

I've even started my striker super on a SB while he is fighting me and before I could get the shoulder charge off to finish him he had already hit me twice to kill me.

SB can basically smoke any other roaming super.

I do also enjoy laying traps with tethers, they’re just not always particularly effective.

I understand that. But only because I relate it to the titan shield. It's super effective if you can plan ahead, but if it doesn't work out, you just kinda stare at it and mumble to yourself "well, I'm glad I did that..."

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by squidnh3, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 09:03 (1703 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

SB can basically smoke any other roaming super.

Arcstrider can beat Spectral most of the time, and Arcstrider loses to Dawnblade and Stormcaller.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 09:10 (1703 days ago) @ squidnh3

SB can basically smoke any other roaming super.


Arcstrider can beat Spectral most of the time, and Arcstrider loses to Dawnblade and Stormcaller.

I guess I should have just prefaces that with "Titan" as that is where my experience lies :D

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 09:15 (1703 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

SB can basically smoke any other roaming super.

My giant hammer Titan can beat them most of the time, but see how close I came to dying in the second video?! They have a lot more speed and ability to dodge than any other Super!

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 16:08 (1703 days ago) @ Claude Errera
edited by Ragashingo, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 16:34

Because dodging is really effective...

And so is Tether.

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woh woh woh

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 08:37 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It’s ridiculous that Titans get a grenade that shuts down Supers more effectively than a subclass that is designed explicitly to do that.

If by "more effectively" you mean you can throw more per game, then yes, they are. But you have to take into account that they have a small blast radius, longer time to activate, and most importantly, they bounce all the hell around the place!!! Nothing is more annoying than watching your grenade bounce off the guy and have the guy kill you.

Yes, I understand you are talented PvP player, and there are many others as well. But for all the times I've tried to run that grenade, I've probably only shut down 1 super. It's soooo hard to actually get someone with it.

woh woh woh

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:06 (1702 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

It’s ridiculous that Titans get a grenade that shuts down Supers more effectively than a subclass that is designed explicitly to do that.


If by "more effectively" you mean you can throw more per game, then yes, they are. But you have to take into account that they have a small blast radius, longer time to activate, and most importantly, they bounce all the hell around the place!!! Nothing is more annoying than watching your grenade bounce off the guy and have the guy kill you.

Yes, I understand you are talented PvP player, and there are many others as well. But for all the times I've tried to run that grenade, I've probably only shut down 1 super. It's soooo hard to actually get someone with it.

I hope you watched that TrueVanguard video Cheapley posted below in this thread. ;)

(Yes, I understand that he's really, really good at placing that grenade. But it's SOOO satisfying to see so many supers die on the vine. He says at the beginning of the video that he set the build up, and played 2 days - all 69 super shutdowns in the vid were captured in those two days.)

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woh woh woh

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:42 (1702 days ago) @ Claude Errera

It’s ridiculous that Titans get a grenade that shuts down Supers more effectively than a subclass that is designed explicitly to do that.


If by "more effectively" you mean you can throw more per game, then yes, they are. But you have to take into account that they have a small blast radius, longer time to activate, and most importantly, they bounce all the hell around the place!!! Nothing is more annoying than watching your grenade bounce off the guy and have the guy kill you.

Yes, I understand you are talented PvP player, and there are many others as well. But for all the times I've tried to run that grenade, I've probably only shut down 1 super. It's soooo hard to actually get someone with it.


I hope you watched that TrueVanguard video Cheapley posted below in this thread. ;)

(Yes, I understand that he's really, really good at placing that grenade. But it's SOOO satisfying to see so many supers die on the vine. He says at the beginning of the video that he set the build up, and played 2 days - all 69 super shutdowns in the vid were captured in those two days.)

It should be noted he is also legit one of the top 10 PvP players in the world. So is it possible for mere mortals?

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woh woh woh

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 15:57 (1702 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Honestly, I think so. He’s a good player, no doubt, but those grenades were not like some magical thing. It’s just about laying them as traps. I haven’t used suppression grenades a whole lot, but I’ve made some plays like that before.

It did make me look forward to running a Titan soon.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, July 31, 2019, 09:48 (1703 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I’m not against supers as a blanket idea. I thought they generally added an interesting wrinkle to Trials in D1 because you would generally only get 1 super per match,

Hey remember when we beat that other team so badly NONE of their players got a single super?

I remember :-p

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 09:10 (1704 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Didn’t D1 have that SWAT inspired game type with no radar, no supers and no Heavy?

Dunno if they’ll bring that back, but...

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 09:54 (1704 days ago) @ Morpheus

That’s what Comp should be.

I’m not saying turn supers off completely, but tone them down.

Comp is arguably worse than Quickplay. The winner is almost always determined by super use and nothing else. The first team to start that train rolling wins. They don’t even have to be a better team. A team with full super mods will get their supers first unless they get thoroughly trounced by the enemy team very early. And once that happens, it’s difficult to claw your way back out.

Supers should be powerful strategic options with trade offs, not instant win spam.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:04 (1704 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Supers should be powerful strategic options with trade offs, not instant win spam.

I feel like that is how it was in D1 Trials. When you decided to use your super could decide the outcome of the game regardless of when you got it because you were very unlikely to get it again.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 10:11 (1704 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Absolutely. But it was strategic, and there were better ways to shut down enemy supers. It wasn’t about who went first and started the orb generation train to keep constant supers up. It was about making one good, smart play with the one super you were going to get.

I didn’t play much Trials in D1, but I desperately want that mode back. I’ve come to love playing Comp with a squad, even with its faults, and I’d love to have that weekend experience of finding a fireteam and trying for the Lighthouse. I wish I had been into D1 Crucible more. I feel like I missed something truly great.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, July 29, 2019, 23:24 (1704 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yep... Well sucks. A little because it stole all the things that my bubble useful for to people in D1. But mostly because it is a win button that is almost necessary for all content. These days, if you don't have a Warlock with a Well you might as well almost not even show up to half the content. Over and over, the answer to new content or power level disadvantage or just tough-ish challenges hasn't been to play better or coordinate more. It's been "we beat it because we put a well down and were mostly invincible and could straight up tank the entire room for 30 seconds.... while getting a significant damage boost."

And yeah, I agree about Dato and shutting down Supers. Scattering is sometimes the best option, but teamwork often does make the dream work!

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 00:51 (1704 days ago) @ Ragashingo

The answer to Well as the end-all for high level PvE is still answered by mechanics and hard damage phases. The best Destiny Bosses All require one or both of those things. I understand a desire to allow the power fantasy, but building encounters which are designed to activey counter current strategies is really something I hope Bungie is already looking into.

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I hate posting this--Datto's new video on PvP and Supers

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 01:30 (1704 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I would have to say the problem isn’t that everyone scatter. And I do agree that they currently are that bad to play against sentiments (even though I refuse to watch his videos, I can infer the frustration, but I’ll run my own reasoning) that others are expressing. I don’t necessarily think it should be easy to 1v1 a super, that would be absurd. The super is supposed to be a substantial advantage. But that advantage should still require a degree of skilled play to be successful with, not just spamming an attack button.

However, there are a few factors that make dealing with roaming supers extra frustrating. And I won’t even get into the imbalances of subclass trees for different activities or the toolsets of those supers. The two points I tend to highlight in conversation are both damage related, but are two separate but contributing factors. First is Super Damage Reduction, second is overall reduced damage outputs. To illustrate a big separation of “feel” I ran numbers awhile back on Stormtrance v. Ace of Spades for both D1 and D2.

Regarding DR on supers you have the base reduction (Stormtrance is 50% in D1; 60% in D2) and with MW armor a multiplicative increase. With 4 fully MW armor pieces you end up with 68% damage reduction. That takes AoS from a 3SK to a 9SK with all crits, (dealing roughly 22 damage per crit) and it takes about 15 with body shots. None of this accounting for Momento Mori. It does not feel good to have your Hand Cannon hit like an AR. Especially with their current damage model (600 RPM autos are a 9SK with crits and a 14 without).

And what exacerbates this problem is out generally reduced lethality. I don’t have numbers offhand, but the difference in damage in D1 with the AoS and D2 is about a 20% overall damage reduction. So you are hitting for less raw damage as well as against enemies with higher DR. Feels no bueno. To contrast the 9SK in D2, the same situation is a 5SK in D1. A 65% slower time to kill rather than a 200% slower one as in D2, assuming they have 4 full MW armor pieces. Though it isn’t substantially different if they don’t.

And the damage reduction also applies to grenades and melees (which are often treated as barely a threat most of the time even by Guardians out of super) minus the bonus from MW armor. So firecrackers and tickles in most cases given their nerfing for D2. Less special and heavy ammo available means that you are regularly faced down by a charging super without any meaningful recourse. Sometimes with them casting mid-fight and turning the tables instead of being punished for bad timing.

There are a lot of bad vibes for anyone solo queue, for people who aren’t super PvP confident, and for those of us who think D1 got a lot of balance better because your whole kit mattered.

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I'll just leave this here. TrueVanguard's newest video:

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 21:36 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It's cathartic.

Fun Police: Master Class

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, July 30, 2019, 22:50 (1703 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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