State of the Eververse

Let me preface this by saying I’m okay with the Eververse in theory. I bought the Hunter armor set because I really like it, and I feel totally good about my purchase.

This post on reddit dives into how the Eververse works and covers the weekly item rotation in the past compared to now. It seems exceptionally scummy in a way that feels totally unnecessary.

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Let me preface this by saying I’m okay with the Eververse in theory. I bought the Hunter armor set because I really like it, and I feel totally good about my purchase.

This post on reddit dives into how the Eververse works and covers the weekly item rotation in the past compared to now. It seems exceptionally scummy in a way that feels totally unnecessary.

I will say that I agree with some of this guys ideas and I like how he methodically lays those ideas out. However, it's really hard to full agree with his idea that Bungie is "scummy" and I quote from his TLDR

Bungie is intentionally being vague about Eververse to get as much money out of you as possible.

The biggest reason I can't get on board with this is that I just honestly can't get behind someones views if they don't try to see both sides. This entire thing feels like a rant because there is absolutely no views on Bungie's side. It's easy to make the statements like what is quoted above because this author is intentionally making Bungie out as a faceless money grabbing corporation.

Secondly, I feel like this piece is also based on the fact that players are entitled to be able to get every single item in this game without paying more money than the base cost of the game and seasons. That to me is absurd. Items that affect the game? Sure, I'm with you on that. But cosmetics? Again, you can argue stuff like cost of these things but the fact that Bungie is trying money off of cosmetics is perfectly reasonable to me.

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I think it’s absolutely fair when Bungie will not comment on this issue. If they don’t present their side, then they don’t really get a fair shake.

I think it’s absolutely intentionally scummy. I don’t think that’s even debatable, honestly. The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

I will give Bungie the benefit of the doubt on most things, but honestly, not on this.

I also recognize that I’m a hypocrite because I have spent real dollars on stuff from the store, and I will almost certainly do so again. I honestly have no problem spending some money to get some cool stuff in a game I’m approaching 1200 hours in. I have no problems with some things being silver only purchases even.

I just want them to be more upfront about what will it will not be available for Bright Dust. The only reason to hide that is to get people to spend money they don’t have to spend. And that’s scummy, period.

I also do think it’s at least a little shitty that certain things that would have been in game drops have been relegated to Eververse only items.

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I think it’s absolutely fair when Bungie will not comment on this issue. If they don’t present their side, then they don’t really get a fair shake.

Their side in response to this guy? Or in general for Eververse?

I think it’s absolutely intentionally scummy. I don’t think that’s even debatable, honestly.

Anything is debatable :D
Which might be why we are still doing this.

The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

I'm not going to say there isn't a better method for gamers, but honestly, this isn't all about gamers. This is a business model. A business that is about making money. Let's get that out there. Now, I personally don't think this is a bad thing. If you want something, get it. If you can't afford the thing, don't get it. If you are actually getting anxiety over buying something from a business trying to incentivize their merchandise then you need to seek help.

I honestly want to feel for some gamers, but honestly merchants have been doing this for thousands of years. And yes, the digital age has made it a little more seedy, but at the same time merchants have also made it even better for customers in a lot of ways and the amount of times I hear customers feel entitled just sickens me. And this piece also makes me feel a bit of the customers/gamers are angels and developers are the devil.

I will give Bungie the benefit of the doubt on most things, but honestly, not on this.

I also recognize that I’m a hypocrite because I have spent real dollars on stuff from the store, and I will almost certainly do so again. I honestly have no problem spending some money to get some cool stuff in a game I’m approaching 1200 hours in. I have no problems with some things being silver only purchases even.

I feel the same way about games. I will pay for things in a game because honestly if I'm put that much time into it and I like it, then it's worth the money I give the developers.

I just want them to be more upfront about what will it will not be available for Bright Dust. The only reason to hide that is to get people to spend money they don’t have to spend. And that’s scummy, period.

I get this sentiment, but how is this any different than a game possibly going on sale after release? Is it "scummy" for companies to not tell you that it might go on sale later? I mean, people are losing money by buying it early. That is no guarantee that it will go on sale? Yes, I will say that it's possible that the item in Destiny just won't go on sale again. But I'm just going to loop back to what I was saying before about gamers feeling entitled to every item in a game. If you want it, buy it.

I also do think it’s at least a little shitty that certain things that would have been in game drops have been relegated to Eververse only items.

Like?

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I'm not going to say there isn't a better method for gamers, but honestly, this isn't all about gamers. This is a business model. A business that is about making money. Let's get that out there. Now, I personally don't think this is a bad thing. If you want something, get it. If you can't afford the thing, don't get it. If you are actually getting anxiety over buying something from a business trying to incentivize their merchandise then you need to seek help.

Nah, I just don’t buy that argument. Exxon is fine, they’re just a business trying to make money! Obviously a hyperbolic extreme, but it’s the end point of that argument. Dismissing legitimate issues because it’s just a business trying to make money is asinine, bordering on just licking boots.

You can argue about people needing better impulse control all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that these practices are predatory and literally designed to exploit those types of people. They hired literal psychologists to help design this shit. It’s design is not accidental. The fact that anyone would defend it as fine because they’re just a business trying to make money and people should be more responsible is honestly as troubling as the store’s issues are.

Again, I’m fine with the store existing. I have spent money and will do so again. I love this game, I have no problem spending my money to support them and get cool stuff. It’s not cool when it feels like the store is trying to fuck me out of my money instead of just showing me the things I can buy at all times instead of having to play the guessing game of what I can get next week.

It is intentionally predatory. That actually isn’t debatable, not in any real way in which I could ever take someone who says it isn’t seriously.

I also do think it’s at least a little shitty that certain things that would have been in game drops have been relegated to Eververse only items.

Like?

The new exotic sparrow and ship, when the raid no longer drops either one. The harpy ghost shell.

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Why not just reply to your own topic with: “No opinions allowed. Mods please lock.” and be done with it?

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There are plenty of things about the Eververse that are plenty debatable. The fact that they’re employing predatory practices designed to extract money from players isn’t one of them.

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That. And the half formed idea you floated that anyone who disagrees with you is just as wrong as (you claim) Eververse is... that’s just crap. Again, are you here to talk about stuff or just here to declare yourself right and the rest of us who dare have a different opinion godless heathens?

The fact that anyone would defend it as fine because they’re just a business trying to make money and people should be more responsible is honestly as troubling as the store’s issues are.

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You go tell it to the wall, I guess.

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That. And the half formed idea you floated that anyone who disagrees with you is just as wrong as (you claim) Eververse is... that’s just crap. Again, are you here to talk about stuff or just here to declare yourself right and the rest of us who dare have a different opinion godless heathens?

Here's your chance to lay down how systems which were intentionally designed to exploit psychological tricks are somehow not exploitative. If you can somehow articulate that in a sensible argument, then there will be room for disagreement.

He says it's not debatable because the facts are pretty clear. These systems are intentionally and purposefully designed by people hired specifically to create them, and the systems by their very nature are fundamentally exploitative.

It's not a question of if they are. It's a question of how much they are.

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That. And the half formed idea you floated that anyone who disagrees with you is just as wrong as (you claim) Eververse is... that’s just crap. Again, are you here to talk about stuff or just here to declare yourself right and the rest of us who dare have a different opinion godless heathens?

Here's your chance to lay down how systems which were intentionally designed to exploit psychological tricks are somehow not exploitative. If you can somehow articulate that in a sensible argument, then there will be room for disagreement.

He says it's not debatable because the facts are pretty clear. These systems are intentionally and purposefully designed by people hired specifically to create them, and the systems by their very nature are fundamentally exploitative.

It's not a question of if they are. It's a question of how much they are.

I mean if we are going to go down this road then we can probably also include human nature. Which means any social engagement, like this one right here, is to exploit the other person to make them think like you by using psychological tricks we learned since we were kids :D

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That. And the half formed idea you floated that anyone who disagrees with you is just as wrong as (you claim) Eververse is... that’s just crap. Again, are you here to talk about stuff or just here to declare yourself right and the rest of us who dare have a different opinion godless heathens?

Here's your chance to lay down how systems which were intentionally designed to exploit psychological tricks are somehow not exploitative. If you can somehow articulate that in a sensible argument, then there will be room for disagreement.

He says it's not debatable because the facts are pretty clear. These systems are intentionally and purposefully designed by people hired specifically to create them, and the systems by their very nature are fundamentally exploitative.

It's not a question of if they are. It's a question of how much they are.

I mean if we are going to go down this road then we can probably also include human nature. Which means any social engagement, like this one right here, is to exploit the other person to make them think like you by using psychological tricks we learned since we were kids :D

[image]

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If it exists in a capitalistic system it is exploitative. Deus Ex is exploitative.

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If it exists in a capitalistic system it is exploitative. Deus Ex is exploitative.

Incorrect.

There are many arrangements of capitalism that are mutually beneficial for everyone.

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That is measurably incorrect. There may be net perceived benefits from a high level perspective, but the process to get there is always at some level exploitative. If one gear is exploitative the machine is exploitative.

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That is measurably incorrect. There may be net perceived benefits from a high level perspective, but the process to get there is always at some level exploitative. If one gear is exploitative the machine is exploitative.

I grow corn. You want the corn. You give me money for the corn, and we both agree on the price. We both get what we want and benefit.

Who's being exploited?

Capitalism is a means to prevent authoritarianism, so talking about 'exploitation' is itself missing the point.

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Do you produce all your own seeds? Do you have an on sight chemical refinery and produce your own pesticides and fertilizers? Did you mine the ore and build your farming equipment from scratch? Is the currency exchange something you minted? What is the currency backed by? You and your transactions do not exist in a vacuum.

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Do you produce all your own seeds? Do you have an on sight chemical refinery and produce your own pesticides and fertilizers? Did you mine the ore and build your farming equipment from scratch? Is the currency exchange something you minted? What is the currency backed by? You and your transactions do not exist in a vacuum.

You seem to be making a false equivalency between production and exploitation.

People work to produce things because things need to be produced in order for humanity to survive. That has nothing to do with capitalism (in any exclusive sense). The history of humanity is the history of people learning to produce things in increasingly efficient and effective ways. Gradually along the way, we learned that we could produce more by specializing. Rather than each individual person being responsible for making everything they need, people could specialize their personal efforts and work cooperatively with others to produce more of the things we need. None of that started with capitalism.

Where capitalism enters the picture is when we adopted the belief that each individual should be the master of their own production. We each choose what we’re going to make, we choose what we’re going to use/consume, and we’re all active participants in deciding the relative value of both goods and the labour that produces them.

Yes, there are people who try to exploit the system and/or other people to further their own gains. But that isn’t a capitalist invention either. That’s as close to a universal law as anything to do with human beings. There are people who exploit every system. The difference is that so far, capitalism is the only system we’ve developed that maintains a foundation of free choice for people at all levels of society. Free choice isn’t always perfectly or evenly present, but when you move away from capitalism, free choice basically disappears for the vast majority of people. And yet, the corruption and exploitation remains. If anything, it gets even worse.

But this is the insane double standard that gets used by everyone who rails against capitalism. The real-world, messy, imperfect examples of capitalism that actually exist are compared to picture- perfect conceptual ideologies, all to illustrate the “problems” with capitalism. Never mind the fact that, imperfect and partially corrupt as it is, capitalism has lead to the most free, prosperous, and least repressive civilizations in human history. Never mind the fact that the supposed alternatives to capitalism keep producing the most murderous and repressive societies, every time they’re put into practice. We don’t need to deal with that. We’ll just sweep it under the rug and keep going on about how evil capitalism is
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I wouldn't go that far :)

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I wouldn't go that far :)

Good, I was scared there for a moment...

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You are using a very narrow definition of exploitation and operating on a vast number of assumptions that do not reflect the real world conditions most people experience capitalism from. It is a very privileged position to feel you are actually in control of your part in real world capitqlism and that is a luxury most people (and invariably someone in your supply chain) does not have.

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You are using a very narrow definition of exploitation and operating on a vast number of assumptions that do not reflect the real world conditions most people experience capitalism from. It is a very privileged position to feel you are actually in control of your part in real world capitqlism and that is a luxury most people (and invariably someone in your supply chain) does not have.

It's almost like we have laws protecting workers, and unions to collectively bargain to address this very issue and give people some control and protections.

Interesting how the poorest states where workers are worst off are all right to work states.

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the world economy only exists in the united states

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I'm not going to say there isn't a better method for gamers, but honestly, this isn't all about gamers. This is a business model. A business that is about making money. Let's get that out there. Now, I personally don't think this is a bad thing. If you want something, get it. If you can't afford the thing, don't get it. If you are actually getting anxiety over buying something from a business trying to incentivize their merchandise then you need to seek help.

Nah, I just don’t buy that argument. Exxon is fine, they’re just a business trying to make money! Obviously a hyperbolic extreme, but it’s the end point of that argument. Dismissing legitimate issues because it’s just a business trying to make money is asinine, bordering on just licking boots.

Apparently it's not obvious, but I'm not saying that Bungie is perfect and gamers be damned.

I will say that I am neither dismissing the fact that this method has issues nor am I saying that making money at all cost is what Bungie is doing. So yes, I understand the Exxon reference but at the same time I basically don't believe in black and white arguments. Anything is debatable. But, only if the people debating it understand it is a back and forth where both sides aren't perfect. I'm slowly getting the feeling that you have put your foot down and anything anyone says on the matter is evil.

You can argue about people needing better impulse control all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that these practices are predatory and literally designed to exploit those types of people. They hired literal psychologists to help design this shit. It’s design is not accidental.

Once again, I will state that I'm not saying the method can't be improved. I just don't believe that these practices are as heinous as you make them out to. You can call me naive or worse, which you basically do in the following paragraph (thanks for that)(that's sarcasm, it wasn't nice), but I don't believe all of that.

The fact that anyone would defend it as fine because they’re just a business trying to make money and people should be more responsible is honestly as troubling as the store’s issues are.

Again, I’m fine with the store existing. I have spent money and will do so again. I love this game, I have no problem spending my money to support them and get cool stuff. It’s not cool when it feels like the store is trying to fuck me out of my money instead of just showing me the things I can buy at all times instead of having to play the guessing game of what I can get next week.

It is intentionally predatory. That actually isn’t debatable, not in any real way in which I could ever take someone who says it isn’t seriously.

Which is why I might as well just stop talking to you on this subject. I mean, I disagree, but that doesn't matter anymore.

I also do think it’s at least a little shitty that certain things that would have been in game drops have been relegated to Eververse only items.

Like?

The new exotic sparrow and ship, when the raid no longer drops either one. The harpy ghost shell.

I agree that only cosmetics should be in the eververse store. Which means that sparrows and ghosts shouldn't be in there. That doesn't mean you can't get cosmetics in the world. I think you should be able to get stuff like that in hard content as a special reward.

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I got burned bad from the first Halloween event in D1. I wanted the ghost Ghost but was forced to try and buy it through the random loot boxes. I spent ~$30 and did not get it. I was furious. Personally, I think most every item should be directly purchasable. I think the way the store is now is a minor disservice to both players and Bungie! It could certainly be improved!

That said, now that Bungie lets me buy some things directly I sometimes do if the item is novel enough and the price low enough. I bought the Haymaker finisher because I liked it better than the default Titan one. I bought the Ding emote to annoy Beorn while he is in a menu. I did not feel exploited at all...

...but Cheaply say I should. And that debating the point make me as wrong as a the scummy company that sold me the items I wanted for the price I was willing to pay??

Something doesn’t add up here. And I think it’s Mr. No Debate Allowed.

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Something doesn’t add up here. And I think it’s Mr. No Debate Allowed.

I think it’s good that we get to swap roles occasionally. (:

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Pfff. I’ve always been for debatin’ anything. It’s other people who are fond of terms like “literally nothing” or “inherently bad” or “ I don’t think that’s even debatable, honestly.” Opinions are fine. Telling the other person that you are so right that they should just go talk to a wall, for example, isn’t.

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I was going to leave this alone. I probably should, and I’ll regret this response because we really don’t need another one of these. But I can’t let it go, I guess.

You have to know that’s complete horseshit, right? Like, if you honestly believe what you just wrote, I’m actually flabbergasted.

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Can you be more specific? Which of those terms do you think are helpful to a discussion?

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Can you be more specific?

No. I have Destiny to play. Reference any of the last four times we did this. I’m sure you can figure it out. You can pretend you want to have conversations all you want, but your attitude and language is pretty good at shutting down civil conversation. For whatever it’s worth, I won’t pretend innocence of the same thing.

Which of those terms do you think are helpful to a discussion?

I think they all expressed exactly what I meant. Facilitating a discussion wasn’t really on my mind.

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...Facilitating a discussion wasn’t really on my mind.

Heh. On that, at least, we agree. :p

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I got burned bad from the first Halloween event in D1. I wanted the ghost Ghost but was forced to try and buy it through the random loot boxes. I spent ~$30 and did not get it. I was furious. Personally, I think most every item should be directly purchasable. I think the way the store is now is a minor disservice to both players and Bungie! It could certainly be improved!

That said, now that Bungie lets me buy some things directly I sometimes do if the item is novel enough and the price low enough. I bought the Haymaker finisher because I liked it better than the default Titan one. I bought the Ding emote to annoy Beorn while he is in a menu. I did not feel exploited at all...

...but Cheaply say I should. And that debating the point make me as wrong as a the scummy company that sold me the items I wanted for the price I was willing to pay??

No, I don’t think he’s saying that specifically at all. He’s not telling anyone how they should feel, far as I can tell.

Something doesn’t add up here. And I think it’s Mr. No Debate Allowed.

Ah, Mr Strawman. We meet again ;)

There is 1 specific point on which Cheapley said there should be no debate, which is that Bungie has literally hired physiologists to help design an in-game store that uses physiological tricks to encourage people to buy items. And that, unless we’ve been misinformed, is accurate.

You can debate whether that’s a good or bad thing. You can debate whether it matters at all. But there’s no question that it happened.

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The post that saw me move to engage cheapLEY was this one:

I think it’s absolutely fair when Bungie will not comment on this issue. If they don’t present their side, then they don’t really get a fair shake.

I think it’s absolutely intentionally scummy. I don’t think that’s even debatable, honestly. The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

I will give Bungie the benefit of the doubt on most things, but honestly, not on this.

I also recognize that I’m a hypocrite because I have spent real dollars on stuff from the store, and I will almost certainly do so again. I honestly have no problem spending some money to get some cool stuff in a game I’m approaching 1200 hours in. I have no problems with some things being silver only purchases even.

I just want them to be more upfront about what will it will not be available for Bright Dust. The only reason to hide that is to get people to spend money they don’t have to spend. And that’s scummy, period.

I also do think it’s at least a little shitty that certain things that would have been in game drops have been relegated to Eververse only items.

When I started typing my reply, cheapLEY had not even mentioned psychologists yet. Your idea that I misread cheapLEY that badly... is just ill founded. I think his implication of cheapLEY's...

The fact that anyone would defend it as fine because they’re just a business trying to make money and people should be more responsible is honestly as troubling as the store’s issues are.

...is that anyone who disagrees with him on this one is just as scummy as the people who prey on players with Eververse. And I wasn't the only one who saw it that way. That is, he thinks people who don't agree with him on the badness of Bungie's tactics should feel shame just as Bungie should feel shame for implementing the tactics. Look what MacAddict said in reply:

I will say that I am neither dismissing the fact that this method has issues nor am I saying that making money at all cost is what Bungie is doing. So yes, I understand the Exxon reference but at the same time I basically don't believe in black and white arguments. Anything is debatable. But, only if the people debating it understand it is a back and forth where both sides aren't perfect. I'm slowly getting the feeling that you have put your foot down and anything anyone says on the matter is evil.

Was he all about questioning the facts of the psychologists, too? Was he setting up a straw man, too?

Look, I think this has turned into a good topic. I'm glad cheapLEY got some serious pushback from people beyond myself. I think you made a nice contribution down below with a more reasoned look at both sides, even if I think you too are leaning too far towards the predatory tactics side of things, but that disagreement is part of the fun of debate..

But... Mr Strawman? Really? You went off half cocked on this one. :)

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Is there anything to verify they hired them to use “tricks” (an inflammatory term itself) over any of a number of other ways those skills could be utilized in the circumstances? Leaps of logic are very popular in entertainment when very limited information is available. And I don’t personally recall anything about folks getting hired to do a bamboozle on the Destiny player base.

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I genuinely don’t think you’re naive. I know I sound harsh. That’s at least partially intentional.

I don’t think that telling people to be more responsible with their money or justifying it as just a business doing business is the answer. It’s like telling a gambling addict to just stop gambling, as if that’s easy. The Eververse is literally relying on those tendency to make money. That’s as much a fact as the earth being round. That’s what I mean by not debatable. You can argue the merits of such a system all day long, but that it’s designed to play into the fear of missing out is just a thing that’s true.

I’m not here saying Eververse is the worst thing to ever happen. On the spectrum of these things in video games, it’s a hell of a lot better than most. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t ask for and expect better.

I agree with you on a lot of things. I don’t think every person needs every item in a game (at least cosmetics—I still honestly do have issues with the fact that something like Cody missing Hawkmoon for an actual year is something that can happen in a video game he paid a lot of money for). I don’t mind that some things can only be bought for real money. I think obfuscating which items those are is a really shitty thing to do.

You will never convince me the weekly rotation isn’t designed to get as much money as possible. How many people will spend a bunch of bright dust on armor, only to miss one piece one week and then have to spend money to complete the set? That’s predatory, I would bet good money that’s a feature, not a bug.

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I don't think any of this is black and white... but I think I come down on the MacAddict/Raga side more than the Cheapley side, on this one. (Defined that way mostly for who's arguing in this thread. ;) )

I do NOT disagree that Bungie has thought a lot about how to best sell the stuff in the Eververse store. I will not even disagree that for some people, some of the choices they've made can lead to unhealthy behavior. What I WON'T say is that they're wrong for doing it, that they've crossed some sort of moral line they shouldn't have crossed.

You (talking directly to Cheapley here), or the posts you've pointed to that back up your argument, have suggested that more transparency, in terms of what will/will not be available down the road for Dust vs Silver, would be 'fair' to the consumer. Why? Or, more specifically... why should Bungie be 'fair' to the consumer on this one? We don't tell Kohl's that they are required to lay out what items will be on sale, and when, over the course of the next year, or month, or whatever... why does Bungie have to do this?

You will never be able to convince me that if they laid out exactly what's 'free' (available for earnable dust instead of cash), that they'd make as much money as they do now. They're a business. Their primary goal is to make money. (You're not disagreeing with this point - you're just putting a value judgement on it, by calling it 'scummy'.)

They sell a product (Destiny), and they offer addons to this product. The one thing they've been really clear on is that the addons will not make you play the game better. That's what you paid for when you bought the game. It's not 'scummy' to try and make the for-profit items be more desirable - any more than it's 'scummy' for a supermarket to carefully stack, and wet down, the produce, to make it look more appealing to buyers.

I guess i'm looking at this from the standpoint of 'ALL cosmetics are an addon; ANYTHING we get for free is nice, but not necessary." If they stopped selling Eververse stuff for Bright Dust altogether, would that make the system less or more scummy? Then EVERYTHING that you saw that you wanted to have would cost extra money.. but at least you wouldn't have to wonder "if I hold off, will this be available later for free?"

I sort of feel like the people arguing that the current system is predatory DO feel like the system would be fairer if the Bright Dust economy simply vanished... which seems insane to me, since it's basically just free stuff.

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I don’t know if you’ve had this conversation with anyone at Bungie. You might know far more than I do.

I would find it incredibly hard to believe (not too mention pretty irresponsible, given that they’ve cited how important that income is to them in supporting the game) that they haven’t given a lot of thought on how to sell stuff at a Eververse. The fact that it charges every season tells me they are absolutely giving it a lot of thought.

I don’t even care about what’s free versus not free. It’s the fact that it seems intentionally designed to trap people into buying things. They make a piece of the armor available for bright dust every week. What happens when you get every piece but one because you missed a week? Are you going to just think that’s fine, or are you going to pony up the cash to complete that set? You might do either and feel completely okay about it, but I think lots of people would pay the cash. You would be hard pressed to convince me they haven’t thought about that exact situation. You can chalk that up to personal responsibility all you want, and I know there’s some truth there. But to pretend that’s not exploitative, and dangerously so for some people seems naive to me. Yes, I think that’s scummy. And maybe it’s a non-issue. Maybe those armor pieces will cycle continuously through the whole season. We’ll see, I guess.

I understand that I probably sound far more negative than I actually feel. I personally don’t feel exploited. I bought that armor set on like day two, despite assuming I could piece it together for free week by week. I love the set, and I’m happy to throw Bungie $15 for it. I am also happy that there is a way for people to get it for free. I’m not as enthused that the giving it away for free part is wrapped in the pressure to get it now or miss out.

I suspect most of us here have a pretty healthy view in the money we spend on Destiny. I’m less sure that’s true of the general population.

I would also point to the sparrow, ship, and ghosts as concrete examples of things that are not extra bonuses. They are things that used to be earned through playing the game we already bought, but now are offered in exchange for extra money. It’s taking things that used to be expected out of the game and asking for more money for them. I won’t say it’s indefensible, but I don’t think it’s a good look.

I also don’t find the “they’re a business, the just need to make money” argument a very compelling one. They have had millions of active players pretty consistently and sell a $60 product every year. They could make Eververse a better value proposition and still make plenty of money instead of as much money as absolutely possible.

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I also don’t find the “they’re a business, the just need to make money” argument a very compelling one. They have had millions of active players pretty consistently and sell a $60 product every year. They could make Eververse a better value proposition and still make plenty of money instead of as much money as absolutely possible.

I mostly just want to talk about this :D

I personally think that we don't have a right to question that really because we don't have their ledgers, we don't know what their expenses are or how much money they are making (do we?), I just realized we might be able to know publicly how much they are making. Either way, it's up to them if they need to increase that profit because, as they have said, they plan on making multiple games in the future. They might just be trying to ramp up to making another IP.

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I would also point to the sparrow, ship, and ghosts as concrete examples of things that are not extra bonuses. They are things that used to be earned through playing the game we already bought, but now are offered in exchange for extra money. It’s taking things that used to be expected out of the game and asking for more money for them. I won’t say it’s indefensible, but I don’t think it’s a good look.

What is this 'out of the game' stuff? Are you suggesting that if you don't pay, you won't have a ghost/ship/sparrow?

(For the record, I have never bought a ghost/ship/sparrow from Eververse, for cash. Ever. I regret not buying the Covenant Sword ship - but the fact remains, they've never received a penny from me for any of those sorts of items. And according to Braytech (because DIM's collections page seems to be borked right now), I've got 165 ships, 175 Sparrows, and 184 Ghosts. That seems like a lot, I don't really feel like I'm missing out.)

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How many of those ghosts, ships, or sparrows came directly from playing an activity and not from Eververse? Every activity used to have some of each of those attached to them. That’s no longer true.

I mostly don’t really care about that. But it’s a little crappy to see two or three items that obviously fit perfectly with the raid theme being sold for real money instead of dropping in that activity. And it’s a direct example of taking things out of the game where they used to be and putting them in the store instead.

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How many of those ghosts, ships, or sparrows came directly from playing an activity and not from Eververse? Every activity used to have some of each of those attached to them. That’s no longer true.

Since I haven't paid a cent for any of them, it should be semi-irrelevant; I earned ALL of them in-game (Bright Dust is earned by playing).

I mostly don’t really care about that. But it’s a little crappy to see two or three items that obviously fit perfectly with the raid theme being sold for real money instead of dropping in that activity. And it’s a direct example of taking things out of the game where they used to be and putting them in the store instead.

I just picked up the new Raid-themed ship for dust. While I agree with you that it would work well as a Raid drop... I'm THRILLED (I can't stress that enough) that I don't have to rely on RNG to get it.

Ask all the folks chasing after the Cursebreaker title how often that goddamn ship drops...

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I just picked up the new Raid-themed ship for dust. While I agree with you that it would work well as a Raid drop... I'm THRILLED (I can't stress that enough) that I don't have to rely on RNG to get it.

Ask all the folks chasing after the Cursebreaker title how often that goddamn ship drops...

I really don’t want this to come across as me making a big deal out of this, because it is very minor in my eyes, but...

Do you not see how what you just said is EXACTLY what makes this system “scummy” in some people’s eyes?

“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

The fact that some loot drops have been an absolute nightmare to acquire is 100% within Bungie’s control. And of all the possible solutions to this problem (if we’re all going to agree that it is a problem), the solution that Bungie settles on is to sell the items to us through the in-game store.

I have no inherent objections to an in-game store. I buy $25 worth of silver every season and use it happily on cool cosmetics that I like. But this is one of those little things that does make me raise my eyebrows in Bungie’s direction.

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“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

A while ago, I listened to Total Biscuit defend the loot boxes in Overwatch. His argument was that since he has more money than time, he appreciated the option to pay to save time. So he thinks they are a good thing and you can use them if you want, and thus fell exactly into the trap that was created.

See, it never occurred to him to ask "why is my time being wasted in the first place? or "Why does earning skins take so much time anyway?" And so the correct solution becomes apparent. Instead of letting you pay to avoid wasting time, just don't design the game to be time wasting in the first place.

He and most critics fail to see it's a case of Blizzard intentionally creating a problem, then giving you the ability to bypass that problem by paying. When you look at it that way, why not just not introduce the problem in the first place?

This is the insidious part of the manipulation. Not only is the system exploitative, but people will actually defend the system as a good thing.

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“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

A while ago, I listened to Total Biscuit defend the loot boxes in Overwatch. His argument was that since he has more money than time, he appreciated the option to pay to save time. So he thinks they are a good thing and you can use them if you want, and thus fell exactly into the trap that was created.

See, it never occurred to him to ask "why is my time being wasted in the first place? or "Why does earning skins take so much time anyway?" And so the correct solution becomes apparent. Instead of letting you pay to avoid wasting time, just don't design the game to be time wasting in the first place.

He and most critics fail to see it's a case of Blizzard intentionally creating a problem, then giving you the ability to bypass that problem by paying. When you look at it that way, why not just not introduce the problem in the first place?

This is the insidious part of the manipulation. Not only is the system exploitative, but people will actually defend the system as a good thing.

The thing is, for some people, it really is a good thing when judged through the lens of their personal experience. They might really enjoy a game as it is, and be willing to throw down a few extra dollars for some trinket they’ll like. You and I are zooming out a bit and looking at it from a different perspective. We see the decisions and intentional designs, and we extrapolate the reasoning behind those decisions, and we take issue with some of it. But at that point we’re comparing the game as it is to what it could be, and for some people, that’s just not a jump they’re interested in making.

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“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

A while ago, I listened to Total Biscuit defend the loot boxes in Overwatch. His argument was that since he has more money than time, he appreciated the option to pay to save time. So he thinks they are a good thing and you can use them if you want, and thus fell exactly into the trap that was created.

See, it never occurred to him to ask "why is my time being wasted in the first place? or "Why does earning skins take so much time anyway?" And so the correct solution becomes apparent. Instead of letting you pay to avoid wasting time, just don't design the game to be time wasting in the first place.

He and most critics fail to see it's a case of Blizzard intentionally creating a problem, then giving you the ability to bypass that problem by paying. When you look at it that way, why not just not introduce the problem in the first place?

This is the insidious part of the manipulation. Not only is the system exploitative, but people will actually defend the system as a good thing.

I am now going to defend the system.

If we add the ghost back into the raid like he said then you you have a chance to get the ghost. But if we wanted to make it like Cody says, then we make it 100% chance when completing the raid! Great, but see raids take a long time, some people still can't do that. Do we put the ghost at the first encounter then? or do we put a raid ghost in another activity?

I personally think selling cosmetics is perfectly fine for people who have money but not time. I just think they also need to put those items into activities where people who have time but not money can get them. I think there might be some exceptions for skill based activities that allow people something unique to chase after.

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If we add the ghost back into the raid like he said then you you have a chance to get the ghost. But if we wanted to make it like Cody says, then we make it 100% chance when completing the raid! Great, but see raids take a long time, some people still can't do that.

Raids take a long time, but they are not time wasting. Huge difference there.

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If we add the ghost back into the raid like he said then you you have a chance to get the ghost. But if we wanted to make it like Cody says, then we make it 100% chance when completing the raid! Great, but see raids take a long time, some people still can't do that.

Raids take a long time, but they are not time wasting. Huge difference there.

That is totally an opinion of yours. which is another point, things that are time wasting is totally relative to the person. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to have that raid ghost but a raid is totally time wasting. That is why you can't assume anything in Destiny is not time wasting. Thus, giving people who find an activity time wasting an option to buy the cosmetics from that activity would be a boon to people. Thus a reason for micro transactions

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If we add the ghost back into the raid like he said then you you have a chance to get the ghost. But if we wanted to make it like Cody says, then we make it 100% chance when completing the raid! Great, but see raids take a long time, some people still can't do that.

Raids take a long time, but they are not time wasting. Huge difference there.

That is totally an opinion of yours. which is another point, things that are time wasting is totally relative to the person. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to have that raid ghost but a raid is totally time wasting. That is why you can't assume anything in Destiny is not time wasting. Thus, giving people who find an activity time wasting an option to buy the cosmetics from that activity would be a boon to people. Thus a reason for micro transactions

What you are talking about is taste. If I create something that is not to your taste, that doesn't mean I wasted your time. It doesn't even mean a 'bad' game is time wasting. As long as you are making the thing in good faith, then it isn't time wasting and exploitative.

Raid - made in good faith to be as fun as possible.
Eververse - Made in bad faith to manipulate you into spending money

Microtransactions and investment systems require game designers to act in bad faith to create systems that are intentionally irritating, but not irritating enough they turn you off to the game entirely.

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You are limiting the perspective the preferences and applying an objective valuation to something subjective. This is wrong.

Raid - Made in bad faith to get players to buy a game where they dislike the rest of the content at full retail price.
Eververse - Made in good faith to provide a potential game-life balance where some players want to invest time and others would prefer to invest money.

Your use of bad faith is just as presumptive.

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You are limiting the perspective the preferences and applying an objective valuation to something subjective. This is wrong.

Raid - Made in bad faith to get players to buy a game where they dislike the rest of the content at full retail price.
Eververse - Made in good faith to provide a potential game-life balance where some players want to invest time and others would prefer to invest money.

Your use of bad faith is just as presumptive.

What

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Raid - Made in bad faith to get players to buy a game where they dislike the rest of the content at full retail price.

I enjoyed MacAddict's nonsensical Reductio ad absurdum for what it was, but I wasn't prepared for this particular flavour of strawman.

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It is targeted jest, first and foremost, at things Cody has said in the past about wanting to raid and not wanting to engage in the rest of the game. Elsewise it needs to be taken in context.

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If we add the ghost back into the raid like he said then you you have a chance to get the ghost. But if we wanted to make it like Cody says, then we make it 100% chance when completing the raid! Great, but see raids take a long time, some people still can't do that.

Raids take a long time, but they are not time wasting. Huge difference there.

That is totally an opinion of yours. which is another point, things that are time wasting is totally relative to the person. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would love to have that raid ghost but a raid is totally time wasting. That is why you can't assume anything in Destiny is not time wasting. Thus, giving people who find an activity time wasting an option to buy the cosmetics from that activity would be a boon to people. Thus a reason for micro transactions

What you are talking about is taste. If I create something that is not to your taste, that doesn't mean I wasted your time. It doesn't even mean a 'bad' game is time wasting. As long as you are making the thing in good faith, then it isn't time wasting and exploitative.

Raid - made in good faith to be as fun as possible.
Eververse - Made in bad faith to manipulate you into spending money

Microtransactions and investment systems require game designers to act in bad faith to create systems that are intentionally irritating, but not irritating enough they turn you off to the game entirely.

I think game designers can act and have acted in bad faith, but I don't think microtransactions and investment systems require them to.

Alternative:

Raid - made in good faith to be as fun as possible (the end result being that you buy the game, which involves spending money).

Eververse - Made in good faith to look cool (the end result being that you want it enough to spend money on it).

There seems to be this underlying assumption that creating something that we want to pay for is inherently bad, is sprung from bad intentions, or is evil and underhanded. It's not like anyone NEEDS games. Newsflash: Bungie hopes you spend money on their stuff. But by these lights, every vidoc Bungie has ever made is manipulative.

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There seems to be this underlying assumption that creating something that we want to pay for is inherently bad, is sprung from bad intentions, or is evil and underhanded. It's not like anyone NEEDS games. Newsflash: Bungie hopes you spend money on their stuff. But by these lights, every vidoc Bungie has ever made is manipulative.

I don't think wanting people to buy your stuff is bad. I don't think anyone does. It's HOW you get people to buy your thing that matters.

Just straight up make a good thing. No tricks. No shady stuff. No psychological manipulations. Just make your product kick ass.

Advertising (Vidocs) can be perfectly moral. "Here's why our thing is awesome, and what it can do for you". As long as that's true, then that's not evil at all.

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Yall got Cody, Korny and I to all agree on something. Stop it before Kapowaz swings by to round out the DBO Horsemen.

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Also wow, #kapowazwasright

He always did have a bee in his bonnet about transparency

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There seems to be this underlying assumption that creating something that we want to pay for is inherently bad, is sprung from bad intentions, or is evil and underhanded. It's not like anyone NEEDS games. Newsflash: Bungie hopes you spend money on their stuff. But by these lights, every vidoc Bungie has ever made is manipulative.

I don't think wanting people to buy your stuff is bad. I don't think anyone does. It's HOW you get people to buy your thing that matters.

Just straight up make a good thing. No tricks. No shady stuff. No psychological manipulations. Just make your product kick ass.

Advertising (Vidocs) can be perfectly moral. "Here's why our thing is awesome, and what it can do for you". As long as that's true, then that's not evil at all.

I just don't buy the negative gloss you're painting with. I don't categorize limited availability as shady, tricky, or psychological manipulation. If that's the case the whole game can be rejected to the extent it follows the living world model.

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I just don't buy the negative gloss you're painting with. I don't categorize limited availability as shady, tricky, or psychological manipulation.

Arguments can be made that limited availability of physical goods is unavoidable for all sorts of manufacturing and supply reasons. Sometimes it's also for manipulative reasons, but a lot of the time iId like to hope it's a case of "we can only make so many of these".

But for digital goods? There's literally zero reason for it except to manipulate.

If that's the case the whole game can be rejected to the extent it follows the living world model.

Other games and MMOs do "Living World" just fine without "seasonal" goods.

I disapprove of a lot of Square Enix's business practices but at least their startlingly overpriced cosmetic store stands on it own without any gimmicks or tricks.

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I just don't buy the negative gloss you're painting with. I don't categorize limited availability as shady, tricky, or psychological manipulation.

Arguments can be made that limited availability of physical goods is unavoidable for all sorts of manufacturing and supply reasons. Sometimes it's also for manipulative reasons, but a lot of the time iId like to hope it's a case of "we can only make so many of these".

But for digital goods? There's literally zero reason for it except to manipulate.

If that's the case the whole game can be rejected to the extent it follows the living world model.

Other games and MMOs do "Living World" just fine without "seasonal" goods.

I disapprove of a lot of Square Enix's business practices but at least their startlingly overpriced cosmetic store stands on it own without any gimmicks or tricks.

Real scarcity is rarely an issue in industrialized first-world countries. Beyond those involving rare minerals, there are few goods that can't be produced to the point of oversupply.

Again, I don't accept your terminology--gimmicks and tricks. Rarity by design has always been baked into the Destiny cake. You couldn't just buy fatebringer or God rolls (most of the time). Yeah, they could just give everyone fatebringer, but you're taking away part of the fun of the game for many people (and frustration, too--I get that, and no one is making anyone play. I take issue with people saying "I don't enjoy RNG therefore it's evil, and anyone who enjoys it is in denial--they are actually a victim").

One of my favorite Shakespeare passages is Hal's soliloquy (and yes, I know I've quoted this before):

If all the year were playing holidays,
To sport would be as tedious as to work,
But when they seldom come, they wished-for come,
And nothing pleaseth but rare accidents.

I know some want Destiny to be like Halo, a game in which everyone has access to exactly the same tools, etc. I get that, but it's not that, and it's never been that, and I guarantee you that a great number of people wouldn't enjoy it so much if it was that.

The irony is that Bungie has taken a lot of randomness away (I'd like them to take away random rolls, too, but that's just me). Most weapons have a clear path to acquire now. If you really want a cosmetic, you can buy it. Yeah, that requires real money and a visit to the vendor at a certain point in time, but if you miss that window there's still a good chance you can get the thing--probably a better chance than getting that god roll. And it can't be overstated--we're talking about the gaming equivalent of sprinkles on a cupcake (to return to cakes). Maybe of less value game-wise--the equivalent of decorative non-edible cupcake toppers.

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But for digital goods? There's literally zero reason for it except to manipulate.

See, here's where you and I diverge.

Bungie has said (more than once, and in plenty of public places) that one of the reasons for scarcity is so that people can say "I was there when X". You have a certain emblem, you did a certain thing at a certain time. You were playing the game at a time when Eververse was selling that special ornament. You have a set of Iron Banner armor that new players can't get any more because you were playing this game when it was new. Whatever.

YES - that's manipulation; they're playing to your sense of vanity, really. "Don't you want to be special? Don't you want people to know you're one of the OG Guardians? Buy this ornament, and everyone will know it!"

But holy shit, the game you're suggesting they build means that one of the things people like most - standing out from the crowd - is something you don't respect, something you don't care about, whatever. BUT OTHER PEOPLE DO. And Bungie is catering to those people.

There are plenty of things that are difficulty-gated, that you could earn early on but that you can STILL earn - Cruel just got his Not Forgotten, for example. (Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!") But you're suggesting that things that you can buy - things that don't take actual skill to earn - should be available always, because to time-limit the purchase is to manipulate the market... and I simply can't buy into that.

When a store has too many options, I often find myself walking away without buying at all; I've gone into a supermarket to find cereal without a clear idea of what I want, gotten overwhelmed by the variety, and walked out without cereal. I'm sure that concept is one of the things Bungie considered when creating their system.

Especially a store that is operated using a videogame controller; the idea of choosing between 500 ornaments with my controller gives me hives.

Those are a couple of things that might affect the permanent availability of digital items that really aren't aimed at screwing the user. I'm sure there are more.

Not saying for a second that the idea of getting people to buy BECAUSE it might not be available later isn't ALSO part of the equation... just saying it might not be the ONLY thing.

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(Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!")

:-p

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=153147

See, even I can say "I was there" but it feels shitty man. Overall, it's not a good attitude to foster I think since it's at the expense of good design.

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(Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!")

:-p

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=153147

See, even I can say "I was there" but it feels shitty man. Overall, it's not a good attitude to foster I think since it's at the expense of good design.

You always say that something isn't great because it's at the expense of something better and yet you rarely actually say what the better thing is. What would be better? An entirely new game? One that isn't a live world?

I mean, it's possible you don't elaborate because it would be you just saying "I wish they hadn't made Destiny"

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(Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!")

:-p

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=153147

See, even I can say "I was there" but it feels shitty man. Overall, it's not a good attitude to foster I think since it's at the expense of good design.

You always say that something isn't great because it's at the expense of something better and yet you rarely actually say what the better thing is. What would be better? An entirely new game? One that isn't a live world?

I mean, it's possible you don't elaborate because it would be you just saying "I wish they hadn't made Destiny"

RPG with strong FPS and cooperative elements.

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(Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!")

:-p

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=153147

See, even I can say "I was there" but it feels shitty man. Overall, it's not a good attitude to foster I think since it's at the expense of good design.

You always say that something isn't great because it's at the expense of something better and yet you rarely actually say what the better thing is. What would be better? An entirely new game? One that isn't a live world?

I mean, it's possible you don't elaborate because it would be you just saying "I wish they hadn't made Destiny"

RPG with strong FPS and cooperative elements.

So you are saying that the live part of the game is taking away from those three elements? Cause I would argue that it enhances some of those elements.

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(Even there, you'll find griping, though - "I earned that gun before the nerf, when it was HARD!")

:-p

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=153147

See, even I can say "I was there" but it feels shitty man. Overall, it's not a good attitude to foster I think since it's at the expense of good design.

You always say that something isn't great because it's at the expense of something better and yet you rarely actually say what the better thing is. What would be better? An entirely new game? One that isn't a live world?

I mean, it's possible you don't elaborate because it would be you just saying "I wish they hadn't made Destiny"

RPG with strong FPS and cooperative elements.

So you are saying that the live part of the game is taking away from those three elements? Cause I would argue that it enhances some of those elements.

Yes. I would argue that as designed it harms every single one.

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RPG with strong FPS and cooperative elements.

So you are saying that the live part of the game is taking away from those three elements? Cause I would argue that it enhances some of those elements.

Yes. I would argue that as designed it harms every single one.

I mean, I feel like having a live game with an ever changing world REALLY applies to RPG's in general. I mean, an RPG to me is has a deep story line where you as the character affects that. Having a live game where you are part of that every changing world (live) to me enhances that RPG element.

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I was there when I first played keepie-uppie with the purple ball. I was there when I got my first Legendary. I was there when I first explored the Dreadnought.

All of those experiences can still be had by anyone today but that doesnt diminish my experience of them in any way.

If your achievements and joys become less valuable to you when other people get to experience them, you're part of a much larger problem.

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I think that misrepresents the circumstances. You are intentionally framing it as antagonistic when it is not. We’ve already had various activities that have come and gone with Destiny. Blades of Crota and Wolf Packs were the Vex Invasions of D1Y1. But those events were inherently resolved in the game and while someone else experiencing them later wouldn’t diminish my experience, continuing to see them show up well after I’ve dealt with Crota and Skolas would diminish the experience I had with them.

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Unless you're auggesting that the continued existence of cosmetics would somehow take you out of the game

Plus of course, nobody paid extra for the privilege of experiencing those limited time events

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One could argue that early adopters did pay extra for privileged access to that content. People who got in later with bundled packages definitely paid less. But the point isn’t in a vacuum and neither is the rest of the game.

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I think that misrepresents the circumstances. You are intentionally framing it as antagonistic when it is not. We’ve already had various activities that have come and gone with Destiny. Blades of Crota and Wolf Packs were the Vex Invasions of D1Y1. But those events were inherently resolved in the game and while someone else experiencing them later wouldn’t diminish my experience, continuing to see them show up well after I’ve dealt with Crota and Skolas would diminish the experience I had with them.

That's why you instance those things, to happen for people for whom it's appropriate, and not for those it isn't.

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Yes. Bloat your game and segment your matchmaking pool with legacy content.

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There seems to be this underlying assumption that creating something that we want to pay for is inherently bad, is sprung from bad intentions, or is evil and underhanded. It's not like anyone NEEDS games. Newsflash: Bungie hopes you spend money on their stuff. But by these lights, every vidoc Bungie has ever made is manipulative.

I don't think wanting people to buy your stuff is bad. I don't think anyone does. It's HOW you get people to buy your thing that matters.

Just straight up make a good thing. No tricks. No shady stuff. No psychological manipulations. Just make your product kick ass.

Advertising (Vidocs) can be perfectly moral. "Here's why our thing is awesome, and what it can do for you". As long as that's true, then that's not evil at all.

I just don't buy the negative gloss you're painting with. I don't categorize limited availability as shady, tricky, or psychological manipulation. If that's the case the whole game can be rejected to the extent it follows the living world model.

I did eventually reject the game :-p

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I just picked up the new Raid-themed ship for dust. While I agree with you that it would work well as a Raid drop... I'm THRILLED (I can't stress that enough) that I don't have to rely on RNG to get it.

Ask all the folks chasing after the Cursebreaker title how often that goddamn ship drops...

I really don’t want this to come across as me making a big deal out of this, because it is very minor in my eyes, but...

Do you not see how what you just said is EXACTLY what makes this system “scummy” in some people’s eyes?

“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

The fact that some loot drops have been an absolute nightmare to acquire is 100% within Bungie’s control. And of all the possible solutions to this problem (if we’re all going to agree that it is a problem), the solution that Bungie settles on is to sell the items to us through the in-game store.

I have no inherent objections to an in-game store. I buy $25 worth of silver every season and use it happily on cool cosmetics that I like. But this is one of those little things that does make me raise my eyebrows in Bungie’s direction.

To buy your argument, I have to buy that Bungie is playing a long con; that they set up an RNG system with a low drop rate PRECISELY to manipulate people into a frame of mind where they'd be thankful, 2+ years down the line, to be able to simply pay for items.

(And remember; we're talking about a Bright Dust purchase, not a cash purchase.)

I earned that bright dust by playing a game I enjoy playing. I didn't go out and grind for it, it came to me as a side effect of doing the thing I like to do. It was free, for all intents and purposes. And then they let me use that free currency to buy something that in previous iterations was available only as a random-chance drop in a relatively rare activity. That's not scummy - that's respecting me.

I like the idea of badges - a record of the stuff you've collected doing a specific thing. I like that not every item is dropped on every run. I like, even, that there's not a guaranteed drop on every run, with a 100% accurate knockout table. (What if I didn't like my roll on the pulse rifle, but there was a knockout table? Now I have to do the damn thing enough times to get EVERYTHING, and THEN I can go back and try and grab a better roll on that pulse. That would make me nuts.)

I don't think I'd play the game Cody wants Bungie to make - where every item is available to every player, at all times. I LIKE having things to chase. To me, that's not a grind - that's FUN.

All of this means that I understand why RNG is in the game, and why, for a small subset of players, that leads to serious frustration. The ONLY change I'd really push for, if I had any say in how things worked, would be to add a guaranteed drop system once you were down to your last missing item. If you're short one item, you should be guaranteed a drop within X runs (not sure what X should be, but it should be pretty small - definitely less than 5, because by the time you're down to 1 item, you've done a bunch already).

And it's why I don't see this system as 'scummy' - I see it as an offshoot of the design process. I don't think that they laid out how all of this would work in a back room, and then tweaked things to ensure that people were made as anxious as possible so that they'd spend the maximum number of dollars. I think that they laid out general guidelines, they DEFINITELY think about what's available and when, as they go... but there's no overall nefarious plot to empty my wallet.

Does that make me a Bungie apologist? I guess, sure. Mostly, though, that's because I've met most of the people making the decisions you guys are so blithely disparaging, and I KNOW that those people aren't the evil, cigar-chomping, money-grubbing assholes some of you are trying to paint them as. I'd guess that most of the worst effects of the system are a result of UNDERthinking, rather than OVERthinking.

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I just picked up the new Raid-themed ship for dust. While I agree with you that it would work well as a Raid drop... I'm THRILLED (I can't stress that enough) that I don't have to rely on RNG to get it.

Ask all the folks chasing after the Cursebreaker title how often that goddamn ship drops...

I really don’t want this to come across as me making a big deal out of this, because it is very minor in my eyes, but...

Do you not see how what you just said is EXACTLY what makes this system “scummy” in some people’s eyes?

“Hey, you know how we usually make you repeat an activity dozens of times just to get that little piece of loot you want? Well now you can just buy it instead!”

The fact that some loot drops have been an absolute nightmare to acquire is 100% within Bungie’s control. And of all the possible solutions to this problem (if we’re all going to agree that it is a problem), the solution that Bungie settles on is to sell the items to us through the in-game store.

I have no inherent objections to an in-game store. I buy $25 worth of silver every season and use it happily on cool cosmetics that I like. But this is one of those little things that does make me raise my eyebrows in Bungie’s direction.

To buy your argument, I have to buy that Bungie is playing a long con; that they set up an RNG system with a low drop rate PRECISELY to manipulate people into a frame of mind where they'd be thankful, 2+ years down the line, to be able to simply pay for items.

(And remember; we're talking about a Bright Dust purchase, not a cash purchase.)

I earned that bright dust by playing a game I enjoy playing. I didn't go out and grind for it, it came to me as a side effect of doing the thing I like to do. It was free, for all intents and purposes. And then they let me use that free currency to buy something that in previous iterations was available only as a random-chance drop in a relatively rare activity. That's not scummy - that's respecting me.

I like the idea of badges - a record of the stuff you've collected doing a specific thing. I like that not every item is dropped on every run. I like, even, that there's not a guaranteed drop on every run, with a 100% accurate knockout table. (What if I didn't like my roll on the pulse rifle, but there was a knockout table? Now I have to do the damn thing enough times to get EVERYTHING, and THEN I can go back and try and grab a better roll on that pulse. That would make me nuts.)

I don't think I'd play the game Cody wants Bungie to make - where every item is available to every player, at all times. I LIKE having things to chase. To me, that's not a grind - that's FUN.

All of this means that I understand why RNG is in the game, and why, for a small subset of players, that leads to serious frustration. The ONLY change I'd really push for, if I had any say in how things worked, would be to add a guaranteed drop system once you were down to your last missing item. If you're short one item, you should be guaranteed a drop within X runs (not sure what X should be, but it should be pretty small - definitely less than 5, because by the time you're down to 1 item, you've done a bunch already).

And it's why I don't see this system as 'scummy' - I see it as an offshoot of the design process. I don't think that they laid out how all of this would work in a back room, and then tweaked things to ensure that people were made as anxious as possible so that they'd spend the maximum number of dollars. I think that they laid out general guidelines, they DEFINITELY think about what's available and when, as they go... but there's no overall nefarious plot to empty my wallet.

Does that make me a Bungie apologist? I guess, sure. Mostly, though, that's because I've met most of the people making the decisions you guys are so blithely disparaging, and I KNOW that those people aren't the evil, cigar-chomping, money-grubbing assholes some of you are trying to paint them as. I'd guess that most of the worst effects of the system are a result of UNDERthinking, rather than OVERthinking.

I think everything you are saying is perfectly fair and reasonable. I also agree with your final assessment (underthinking, vs overthinking). But you (to a large degree) and I (to a lesser degree) are in the uncommon position of knowing some of the people involved in making these decisions personally. And that makes giving the benefit of the doubt an easy, if not default position for us. Most Destiny players, however, know nobody at Bungie. And it’s much easier to assume that an impersonal, faceless company is out to screw you (even though that fear is almost always unfounded).

I’m very specifically not accusing Bungie of anything malicious with regards to the Eververse. But as someone who has worked in retail for 17 years, I’m very acutely aware of the lengths to which a good retailer goes to avoid a situation where they could possibly be seen as exploiting or manipulating their customers unfairly. So that’s the direction my criticisms come from. That’s why I’m so much in favour of crystal clear communication with regards to how the in-game Microtransaction economy works. I think Bungie can do better at avoiding pitfalls that generate suspicious and distrust from players who are less inclined to default towards giving the benefit of the doubt.

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We, here, and the Destiny community have been over all this before. I think the part that actually annoys me most is that it feels like Bungie, or casinos, are handed most or all the responsibility for someone buying Eververse items or gambling. Things like, “ It’s like telling a gambling addict to just stop gambling, as if that’s easy.” get thrown around.

I disagree with that.

I think the player or gambler should shoulder most of the responsibility. In exchange for generally not telling them how to live their life or spend their money, I pretty much expect them not to blame others if they make choices that they know will harm their health or finances.

That’s kinda it.

If you want freedom to do what you want, you should take responsibility for your own actions. Yes! Even if companies spend untold millions to convince you to do something against your interests.

That doesn’t mean we can’t also point out companies doing bad things. But we need to keep things more in perspective. Especially in terms of something as begin and user-initiated as someone buying a returnable item from Eververse.

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I think the part that actually annoys me most is that it feels like Bungie, or casinos, are handed most or all the responsibility for someone buying Eververse items or gambling. Things like, “ It’s like telling a gambling addict to just stop gambling, as if that’s easy.” get thrown around.

I disagree with that.

I think the player or gambler should shoulder most of the responsibility. In exchange for generally not telling them how to live their life or spend their money, I pretty much expect them not to blame others if they make choices that they know will harm their health or finances.

I post this every time someone compares this stuff to gambling, but it's usually from the other perspective. Gambling addiction is especially insidious, because there's always a chance (no matter how slight) you can get your money back. This feature tends to make it specifically affect those who can afford it the least (e.g., state lotteries are a tax on poor people).

What Bungie is selling with Eververse are high-end luxury goods with no resale value. If you buy something through Eververse, it is 100% clear and obvious that the money you spend will never return to you. The so-called "FOMO" aspect to it is absolutely necessary for selling these kind of goods - a significant portion of the reason people buy them at all is because other people won't have them. For me, it's hard to see how selling such a good in nearly any form could be predatory.

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The so-called "FOMO" aspect to it is absolutely necessary for selling these kind of goods - a significant portion of the reason people buy them at all is because other people won't have them. For me, it's hard to see how selling such a good in nearly any form could be predatory.

Those two statements are at odds with each other for me. Making something with the intentions of sparking FOMO to lure people into buying it is inherently predatory. It’s a digital thing, there’s absolutely no reason for it to ever not be on sale, except as a way to get people to rush to buy it before they no longer can.

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Those two statements are at odds with each other for me. Making something with the intentions of sparking FOMO to lure people into buying it is inherently predatory. It’s a digital thing, there’s absolutely no reason for it to ever not be on sale, except as a way to get people to rush to buy it before they no longer can.

Here's how I'm thinking about it:

These are luxury goods that cannot be resold. Their only purpose is either to inflate the user's ego by serving as a status symbol, or to appeal to a person's aesthetic sensibilities.

The second one (which you seem to be) is straightforward. Just buy the items if you want them. If you want to wait to see if they will be cheaper, well that's the chance you take, I guess they don't do that much for you anyway if they don't end up being cheap and you don't get them.

The first one is slightly more complicated. If the item only ever costs money, well now it's obvious to others you spent money on microtransactions. Potentially embarrassing in a social game like Destiny. However, if everyone can get them for non-money, they aren't a luxury good anymore, why would I spend money on that. So to sell them, you have to have this confusing mix of will it be easier to get later or I could just spend money on it, and also other people need to not have it for it to be cool (it can't be cool if everyone is doing it).

I don't know, maybe it's a stretch (I'm not an economist), it's just hard for me to feel sorry for people being "lured" into buying luxury goods.

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Potentially embarrassing in a social game like Destiny.

It's the opposite sometimes. I've read quite a few articles that talk about online bullying that comes with having the default skin or appearance in games. NOT buying is embarrassing.

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The so-called "FOMO" aspect to it is absolutely necessary for selling these kind of goods - a significant portion of the reason people buy them at all is because other people won't have them. For me, it's hard to see how selling such a good in nearly any form could be predatory.

Those two statements are at odds with each other for me. Making something with the intentions of sparking FOMO to lure people into buying it is inherently predatory. It’s a digital thing, there’s absolutely no reason for it to ever not be on sale, except as a way to get people to rush to buy it before they no longer can.

Sparking FOMO? Horrific! I love you, cheap, but I can't agree with this take. FOMO is a quintessential feature of being a human being. You could die in the next moment. Every decision you make, whether to sit or stand, sleep or eat Sushi can be said to be guided on some level by FOMO.

I subscribe to live services on consoles, so every game I consider buying involves making calculations. Every game I consider buying might be free and will likely be cheaper in the future. Every game I consider buying might be unavailable or unplayable a few years from now. Should Microsoft or Sony tell me that game X will be "free" in six months? Do they even know?

I like Trader Joe's, but I rarely find the same thing twice when I shop there. Are they scummy for not telling me that they'll never have dark-chocolate-covered macadamia nuts after this month or that they'll be half-price next week? I don't think so. I accept Trader Joe's for what it is. I don't feel entitled to more.

Eververse is Trader Joe's selling virtual jewelry to people who have enough comfort in their life to care about such inconsequential things. If you really want it, you buy it when you see it. If you kind of want it, but you are unsure, you make a calculation and take your chances. You can buy it, though. I didn't like it in D1 when you were buying chances to get something you wanted. I didn't participate. Bungie fixed that.

I'm not convinced by some guy on reddit who can't write for shit that Bungie is now evil because he can no longer reliably peek at next week's flyer. Give me a break.

I know this. Bungie makes cool stuff. Love the new raid--it's really awe inspiring. That awe isn't created on the cheap. I sincerely believe that they're trying to be independent and profitable without being scumbags, and I want them to be successful--I'd like them to be wildly successful. More awe, please.

Thank you for pointing to that reddit post, though. I usually completely ignore Tess unless I've got an engram for her, but now I'm inspired. I'm buying something tonight.

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Sparking FOMO? Horrific! I love you, cheap, but I can't agree with this take. FOMO is a quintessential feature of being a human being. You could die in the next moment. Every decision you make, whether to sit or stand, sleep or eat Sushi can be said to be guided on some level by FOMO.

Oh c’mon. I have never once thought “I better go get some sushi in case I die tomorrow.” My entire life is filled with a distinct lack of worrying about dying soon.

I like Trader Joe's, but I rarely find the same thing twice when I shop there. Are they scummy for not telling me that they'll never have dark-chocolate-covered macadamia nuts after this month or that they'll be half-price next week? I don't think so. I accept Trader Joe's for what it is. I don't feel entitled to more.

Again, c’mon. Trader Joe’s is selling things that are constrained by very real world circumstances that affect supply. Destiny’s ghost shell supply is arbitrarily limited in order to make people feel pressured to buy it and for literally only that reason. There is no other reason to not just let people buy the things they want for as long as Destiny exists as a service.

I know this. Bungie makes cool stuff. Love the new raid--it's really awe inspiring. That awe isn't created on the cheap. I sincerely believe that they're trying to be independent and profitable without being scumbags, and I want them to be successful--I'd like them to be wildly successful. More awe, please.

I also believe all that. The point here is I think they’re at least partially failing on the “don’t be scumbags” thing. Not egregiously by any means.

Thank you for pointing to that reddit post, though. I usually completely ignore Tess unless I've got an engram for her, but now I'm inspired. I'm buying something tonight.

I’m glad. I’ll probably spend some bright dust on that ship myself.

At the risk of treading into politics, I’ll just say a lot of this is not only about Destiny. I think the fact that “they’re just a business trying to make as much money as possible” is floated as a legitimate response and everyone takes that as a matter of fact and just accepts that as a completely legitimate defense is absolutely troubling. Yes, it’s at least a little hyperbolic. It’s a video game, there are far bigger issues to worry about. But it’s a tiny indicator of a problem in the system at large.

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At the risk of treading into politics, I’ll just say a lot of this is not only about Destiny. I think the fact that “they’re just a business trying to make as much money as possible” is floated as a legitimate response and everyone takes that as a matter of fact and just accepts that as a completely legitimate defense is absolutely troubling. Yes, it’s at least a little hyperbolic. It’s a video game, there are far bigger issues to worry about. But it’s a tiny indicator of a problem in the system at large.

In my eyes, most conversations around this topic these days go drastically off the rails, mainly due to a few big misconceptions.

Capitalism is not an economic system that just sprung up out of the ground in a vacuum. It is the result of a far deeper philosophical and moral system of values. You start with the belief that every single human being is inherently valuable, and that each of us are ultimately responsible for our own choices. From that comes the inherent right for each of us to decide what is valuable to us, and to what extent, including our own time. And where we disagree with each other, we’re free to negotiate, and if that doesn’t work, we’re free to just walk away from each other. And so on.

What I’m getting at here is that capitalism inherently exists within a moral code. It is not, despite the common accusations, “all about making money”. Many people/businesses/corporations do appear to operate under that assumption to varying degrees, but that is absolutely not because of capitalism. Greed is greed, and it has been around since long before capitalism. Go anywhere in the world, at any point in human history, and you will find people crossing moral lines to acquire “more”.

The funny thing is, this inaccurate claim that I’m pointing at (the claim that the whole point of a business is just to make money) is used by people on both sides of the arguments that form around these topics. Apologists and defenders will say “hey, they’re just a business trying to make money, and that’s the whole point so who can blame them”. Meanwhile, some critics will point at perceived moral infractions (in this case, possibly predatory or misleading sales tactics) and say “See! This is the problem with capitalism!”.

I think this leads to misunderstandings on both sides and a lot of arguing past each other. But I think the whole thing is simpler than some people make it out to be. One of the fundamental moral codes on which the entire capitalist system stands is trust. For any of this to work, the parties involved need to be able to trust each other. Nobody wants to feel like they’ve been tricked into a deal they didn’t realize they were making. Which brings us back to the main topic at hand. Reading through that Reddit post in detail, there are a couple examples of Eververse implementation that do look disconcertingly close to “tricks”. Maybe they are, maybe they aren’t, but they look suspicious enough to some people to raise red flags. Others may not have the same reaction, but IMO it is absolutely fair and reasonable for Destiny players to point at the things that bother them and say “hey Bungie, you’re making me wonder if I can trust you here”.

For me, that really is what it comes down to. Trust is the commodity of real value that keeps a company going. Yes, they need and want money, but trust is what allows Bungie to spend years and hundreds of millions of dollars making a new game, and it’s what makes players want to spend their money on each new Bungie game on day 1, instead of buying something else. And ultimately, trust is such a personal thing, we can’t really argue about it. All we can really do is try to get the facts straight, and then decide for ourselves.

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For me, that really is what it comes down to. Trust is the commodity of real value that keeps a company going. Yes, they need and want money, but trust is what allows Bungie to spend years and hundreds of millions of dollars making a new game, and it’s what makes players want to spend their money on each new Bungie game on day 1, instead of buying something else. And ultimately, trust is such a personal thing, we can’t really argue about it. All we can really do is try to get the facts straight, and then decide for ourselves.

Trust

____________________

D2 Age of Triumph?

Remember D1 Treasure of Ages:
[image]

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For me, that really is what it comes down to. Trust is the commodity of real value that keeps a company going. Yes, they need and want money, but trust is what allows Bungie to spend years and hundreds of millions of dollars making a new game, and it’s what makes players want to spend their money on each new Bungie game on day 1, instead of buying something else. And ultimately, trust is such a personal thing, we can’t really argue about it. All we can really do is try to get the facts straight, and then decide for ourselves.

Yup. And a company that has a history of flat-out lying to their customers before (inb4 apologists) is a difficult one to trust as far as their money-making tactics go.

Scummy Microtransaction setup aside, I think Destiny is in a much better place than most other companies that employ the Fortnite store model of five items on a one-time real-money store.
I mean, it's not Digital Extremes' official Drop Table page that tells you exactly how to get every item for free to help you decide whether you want to spend money or not, but at least it does have some stuff that you can get with earned bright dust... Even if that list gets shorter every season...

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Except Warframe is a MTX store with an interactive “Freemium Game” attached. That is literally their business model.

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Except Warframe is a MTX store with an interactive “Freemium Game” attached. That is literally their business model.

I was always under the impression that Freemium games were defined by the paywalls, of which absolutely zero exist in Warframe. But that's somewhat besides the point, as the in-game MTXs all have a guaranteed way to be obtained without spending money, unlike Destiny's Eververse content. And 99% of all content is available 24/7, without any lootbox mechanics anywhere in the game.

Furthermore, up until recently, Destiny was a full-priced game (and is still a $60+ release to get past the Y1 paywall) that also included MTXs that were very possibly not used to help fund development of the game's content (remember their carefully worded statement about Zero Hour?). As this is the case, having not just timed content, but a lootbox mechanic for content that is unavailable for direct purchase (exploitative and scummy by design!)

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I mean, there are lots of different freemium models. Some are pay to win. Some are pay to engage. Such as spending premium currencies to bypass having to collect items and a blueprint and combining them and then waiting 72 hours or w/e to be able to use said item.

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I was always under the impression that Freemium games were defined by the paywalls, of which absolutely zero exist in Warframe.

How is: Turn something in to a forge thingy and wait 24 or more hours for it to complete OR spend money to complete it now! not a paywall? That's like the definition of setting an arbitrary time gate on something but giving them payment option to bypass it.

Now, I played Warframe over a year ago and that could be gone, but at the time that seemed really annoying.

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Not to say that i think the Wardrame model is lerfect by any means, (I disapprove of any game that doesnt respect my time) but the content is not gated per sé.

In terms of game design its a pretty obvious trick of course, and definitely makes the game worse with the intent of making money.

But its not a paywall.

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At the risk of treading into politics, I’ll just say a lot of this is not only about Destiny. I think the fact that “they’re just a business trying to make as much money as possible” is floated as a legitimate response and everyone takes that as a matter of fact and just accepts that as a completely legitimate defense is absolutely troubling. Yes, it’s at least a little hyperbolic. It’s a video game, there are far bigger issues to worry about. But it’s a tiny indicator of a problem in the system at large.

If that was all of someone's argument, I'd also be worried, but I don't think it is. At least not for anyone around here. I think "they're a business, so of course they're gonna try and make money" is valid up to some point. It costs millions of dollars to make this massive, ongoing entertainment project. And, of course the smart, talented people making it want to be paid and want the resources to continue their craft. Defending a company for selling things is in no way controversial in my mind.

And what is predatory, anyway? Like someone else mentioned, companies like Walmart spend millions of dollars in determining how to order the products in their store too. What to sell. When to sell it. Etc. It's even something I have to actively resist. "Like... ooooh! That LEGO set on the end of the row looks cool and is a good price, I should buy it... or not, I shouldn't actually spend that money no..."

I see it more as temptations and decisions on where to put my resources are a part of life. But not every instance of a lure or plan to make a profit is nefarious and predatory.

But some are. Cable TV companies and U.S. internet providers are absolutely predatory about things like data caps and adding random charges to bills. There was a story just today or yesterday about one company charging its customers a state tax that was actually optional and that the internet company didn't even pay itself. They just raised everybody's bill a bit to get a little more profit. We all have to watch out for stuff like this. Way more often than we should.

So yeah, I think "my favorite entertainment company needs to make money to keep making me the game I love" is a legitimate defense to at least some Eververse decisions. Perhaps not all of them though... I didn't know that the Raid didn't offer ships / Ghosts this time around but the store did, for instance.. I think that should be switched back.

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So yeah, I think "my favorite entertainment company needs to make money to keep making me the game I love" is a legitimate defense to at least some Eververse decisions. Perhaps not all of them though... I didn't know that the Raid didn't offer ships / Ghosts this time around but the store did, for instance.. I think that should be switched back.

I think if an video game company has to resort to underhanded tactics to get people to spend enough money to support their business, they need to seriously evaluate the kind of game they are making completely.

I am appreciative of the fact that Bungie is now wholly independent and lost access to a certain amount of support that they were likely afforded while partnered with Activision. I question that they need to resort to some of the more nefarious tactics employed in the Eververse currently.

It's not just the free bright dust items versus silver items. Silver items also are on a rotating stock. I literally cannot buy the items that were available last week right now. I'd have to wait and hope they come back around by the end of the season. You want that Harpy Ghost Shell? You better go buy it right now, because it's gone at the end of the week, who knows when it'll return?

You will never convince me that's not predatory. That's absolutely designed to get people to buy it right this instant just in case they can't get it later. The only limitation there is an artificial one that Bungie imposed to in order to get as many people to spend as much money as they possibly can. It's not like they're going to run out of Harpy Ghost Shells after this week.

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So yeah, I think "my favorite entertainment company needs to make money to keep making me the game I love" is a legitimate defense to at least some Eververse decisions. Perhaps not all of them though... I didn't know that the Raid didn't offer ships / Ghosts this time around but the store did, for instance.. I think that should be switched back.

I think if an video game company has to resort to underhanded tactics to get people to spend enough money to support their business, they need to seriously evaluate the kind of game they are making completely.

Agreed. But I don't think Bungie is at that level. Now... Fortnite or something closer to that? Maybe then we're talking...

I am appreciative of the fact that Bungie is now wholly independent and lost access to a certain amount of support that they were likely afforded while partnered with Activision. I question that they need to resort to some of the more nefarious tactics employed in the Eververse currently.

It's not just the free bright dust items versus silver items. Silver items also are on a rotating stock. I literally cannot buy the items that were available last week right now. I'd have to wait and hope they come back around by the end of the season. You want that Harpy Ghost Shell? You better go buy it right now, because it's gone at the end of the week, who knows when it'll return?

You will never convince me that's not predatory. That's absolutely designed to get people to buy it right this instant just in case they can't get it later. The only limitation there is an artificial one that Bungie imposed to in order to get as many people to spend as much money as they possibly can. It's not like they're going to run out of Harpy Ghost Shells after this week.

You're going to end up swaying a lot of people away from your point of view like this. If you'd treat the issue and the people on the other side of it with a little more respect you would have had basically unanimous agreement here. Even you admit your own hypocrisy and hyperbole often in this thread. Why not cut those out and treat us all like something closer to equals than people who are scum if they dare disagree with you?

I don't know man... this part... your stubborn willingness to drive people away is the least fun part of this thread. :(

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You're going to end up swaying a lot of people away from your point of view like this

Like what? I have a hard time seeing how anything I just said in that post could even be anything remotely approaching disrespectful or combative or anything like that.

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You've got a whole thread of people disagreeing with you and specifically with your charged language regarding Bungie's actions. A lot of people who agreed with you generally but were turned off by your hyperbole and stubbornness. I mean... I just kinda want to gesture in the direction of the thread and leave it at that... ya know?

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Agreed. But I don't think Bungie is at that level. Now... Fortnite or something closer to that? Maybe then we're talking...

You'll see it with Matter guaranteed.

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Sparking FOMO? Horrific! I love you, cheap, but I can't agree with this take. FOMO is a quintessential feature of being a human being. You could die in the next moment. Every decision you make, whether to sit or stand, sleep or eat Sushi can be said to be guided on some level by FOMO.

Oh c’mon. I have never once thought “I better go get some sushi in case I die tomorrow.” My entire life is filled with a distinct lack of worrying about dying soon.

My point is, everything is a limited-time offer. Many choices we make involve making decisions about what we don't want to miss out on.

I like Trader Joe's, but I rarely find the same thing twice when I shop there. Are they scummy for not telling me that they'll never have dark-chocolate-covered macadamia nuts after this month or that they'll be half-price next week? I don't think so. I accept Trader Joe's for what it is. I don't feel entitled to more.

Again, c’mon. Trader Joe’s is selling things that are constrained by very real world circumstances that affect supply. Destiny’s ghost shell supply is arbitrarily limited in order to make people feel pressured to buy it and for literally only that reason. There is no other reason to not just let people buy the things they want for as long as Destiny exists as a service.

I think I'd agree if they were selling something that actually mattered in the game. There's plenty of emblems I can't get. When is rarity okay?

Trader Joe's was a just a real-life analogy to Eververse in terms of limited availability, regardless of the reason. As with TJ, I realized immediately that Eververse stock had limited availability. You say that this is "absolutely designed to get people to buy it right this instant just in case they can't get it later. The only limitation there is an artificial one that Bungie imposed to in order to get as many people to spend as much money as they possibly can. It's not like they're going to run out of Harpy Ghost Shells after this week." Yes and no. How much people can spend is different than how much they choose to spend, and it is a value proposition in which they have a choice. (And they still get a chance to get the thing for free!) I mean, has Bungie deceived anyone? Does anyone not know that the items that can be bought today might not be sold again? And if people know that, how is it underhanded?

You love the band. You bought the album and the concert ticket. The show rocked. You had a great time. Do you need the t-shirt? Does the shirt affect your enjoyment of the concert? These things are small batch, so who knows if you can find it later, and hey, as it turns out, t-shirt sales actually provide a significant source of income for the band. So okay, you buy the shirt, mainly because it looks cool. Ah, man! Those sneaky, nefarious bastiches strike again!

I know this. Bungie makes cool stuff. Love the new raid--it's really awe inspiring. That awe isn't created on the cheap. I sincerely believe that they're trying to be independent and profitable without being scumbags, and I want them to be successful--I'd like them to be wildly successful. More awe, please.

I also believe all that. The point here is I think they’re at least partially failing on the “don’t be scumbags” thing. Not egregiously by any means.

Thank you for pointing to that reddit post, though. I usually completely ignore Tess unless I've got an engram for her, but now I'm inspired. I'm buying something tonight.

I’m glad. I’ll probably spend some bright dust on that ship myself.

At the risk of treading into politics, I’ll just say a lot of this is not only about Destiny. I think the fact that “they’re just a business trying to make as much money as possible” is floated as a legitimate response and everyone takes that as a matter of fact and just accepts that as a completely legitimate defense is absolutely troubling. Yes, it’s at least a little hyperbolic. It’s a video game, there are far bigger issues to worry about. But it’s a tiny indicator of a problem in the system at large.

For the record, I'm not saying they're trying to make as much money as possible. I think they're in a very competitive market and they're trying to find a business model that allows them to continue to make cool stuff. When I say I want them to be wildly successful, I say that precisely because I think the majority of the people at Bungie are not Scrooge McDuck, eager to take swan dives into a lake of cash. Like most of us, they probably want financial security while doing fulfilling work. I believe, however, the more money they make, the more cool stuff they'll make. I think this is at the heart of the moral code and trust that Cruel spoke of. I believe they will continue to make stuff that is worth how much they charge for it. I actually think $60 is pretty cheap for a game like Destiny--for most of us it's just about the least expensive entertainment we can buy. In the grand scheme of things, I just can't get worked up about limited edition cosmetics, especially if it helps make more great content possible.

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You love the band. You bought the album and the concert ticket. The show rocked. You had a great time. Do you need the t-shirt? Does the shirt affect your enjoyment of the concert? These things are small batch, so who knows if you can find it later, and hey, as it turns out, t-shirt sales actually provide a significant source of income for the band. So okay, you buy the shirt, mainly because it looks cool. Ah, man! Those sneaky, nefarious bastiches strike again!

It's almost as if there isn't an unlimited supply of digital shirts that can be bought from anywhere with a wifi connection.

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Dude, you keep making analogies that don’t really follow.

The band isn’t trying to trick you into buying a shirt. Most of the time, if you get home and decide you actually do want that shirt, they’re selling the exact same one on their website. So they’re not even really trying to take advantage of people by nature of them missing out if they don’t buy a shirt then and there. I’m sure plenty of bands still do tour shirts you can only get at shows. But even then, you know that going in. They don’t sell shirts only at random dates and make you guess which ones.

I don’t think most people at Bungie are scumbags. I don’t even think whoever makes the decisions about how the store works is necessarily a scumbag. I do think they are relying on underhanded tactics to increase their revenue.

I think it’s undeniable that it’s designed to exploit cheap psychological tricks to extract as much money as possible. If it was as simple as them wanting to sell you cool stuff, you’d be able to buy anything from the Eververse at any time, instead of having to check a weekly rotation. There is no other legitimate reason I can think of to cycle digital goods in a video game in and out of availability. It’s artificial scarcity to make folks feel pressure to buy it right now. Put all the shit for this season up for sale and let people buy whatever they want all season.

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Dude, you keep making analogies that don’t really follow.

I do think they are relying on underhanded tactics to increase their revenue.

I've been trying to think of an analogy that makes sense, but it's not easy. The best thing I can come up with is food at amusement parks. It's super marked up, wow that's underhanded because people gotta eat. Except that most parks (at least the ones I go to regularly) make it super easy to just walk out to your car and grab a sandwich from your cooler that took 3 minutes to make. Still, tons of people just buy the marked up meals.

That's (I think) what the objection Kermit and I have to the use of "underhanded" or "manipulative" is. How diabolical could any method of trying to get people to buy stuff possibly be when there's a big red button labeled "DISENGAGE" to be pushed at any moment? I can see the counter-argument that there are sets of things and such and it gets harder to push the button if you are in halfway, but isn't that what collecting stuff is all about?

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There is no other legitimate reason I can think of to cycle digital goods in a video game in and out of availability. It’s artificial scarcity to make folks feel pressure to buy it right now. Put all the shit for this season up for sale and let people buy whatever they want all season.

My favorite local restaurant has a limited rotating menu; I can't buy everything they make all the time. I've talked to the chef; this isn't even because they have limited resources (time and/or money) and can't offer everything they offer at all times, it's because he (the chef) likes people to step out of their comfort zone and try things they might not have tried otherwise. (He says he's worked in restaurants where a customer will come in multiple times a week, for years, and order the same damn thing every time.)

He knows that's your right as a customer. He also knows it's his right, as a chef, to not give you that. You get to decide if you show up or not. (They are NEVER hurting for customers.)

I'm not trying to say this is why Bungie rotates stock. I'm trying to say that this is an example of a situation where supply is dictated by something other than resources - that it's possible that other people can come up with the legitimate reasons that you can't for why an item whose supply is essentially infinite might not be available all the time.

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That's infuriating.

The Chef could have everything for sale always. If the customer is such a regular, just kindly suggest he try this other awesome thing. I'd never come back if a business told me I can't have my favorite thing tonight because they want to act like my parents and help me grow.

Thinking you need to rotate the menu so people try new things is so infantilizing.

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That's infuriating.

The Chef could have everything for sale always. If the customer is such a regular, just kindly suggest he try this other awesome thing. I'd never come back if a business told me I can't have my favorite thing tonight because they want to act like my parents and help me grow.

Thinking you need to rotate the menu so people try new things is so infantilizing.

The words you use show how you think.

He doesn't NEED to rotate anything. He WANTS to. It's his restaurant. (I doubt that getting people to try new things is the only reason, either; there's probably quite a bit of "I don't feel like getting bored making this pasta dish night after night", too.)

And you are ABSOLUTELY WELCOME to reject that model, and refuse to patronize his restaurant. He's totally okay with that.

So are the people lined up outside, waiting for a table. You refusing to come in means that line is shorter.

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"I don't feel like getting bored making this pasta dish night after night", too.)

That's an ok reason. But that's not the reason you gave.

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"I don't feel like getting bored making this pasta dish night after night", too.)

That's an ok reason. But that's not the reason you gave.

I've spent a few hours talking to the guy - I haven't transcribed everything we talked about. He's not a 1-dimensional video game character, he's a person. I doubt there's a single reason he does ANYTHING in his life, much less the primary task of his job - I'm sure there are DOZENS of things that went into his decision to run his restaurant the way he does.

In the future, if we're discussing something, and I provide a single example to illustrate a point I'm trying to make, please don't assume it's the ONLY example available.

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"I don't feel like getting bored making this pasta dish night after night", too.)

That's an ok reason. But that's not the reason you gave.

I've spent a few hours talking to the guy - I haven't transcribed everything we talked about. He's not a 1-dimensional video game character, he's a person. I doubt there's a single reason he does ANYTHING in his life, much less the primary task of his job - I'm sure there are DOZENS of things that went into his decision to run his restaurant the way he does.

In the future, if we're discussing something, and I provide a single example to illustrate a point I'm trying to make, please don't assume it's the ONLY example available.

It's interesting how people zero in on the worst possible motivations in order to fit a narrative.

[Scene: Bungie Meeting Room]

Joe: The game's doing well, the community seems happy. We're independent, so we've got to be a little more self-supportive. How can we generate more income?

Schmo: Microtransactions?

Joe: Maybe. But not play to win, though, and not exploitive.

Schmo: Cosmetic only then. Per season. Over time our most loyal fans will have unique stuff that identifies them as veterans of the game.

Joe: So we sell them only for a short time.

Schmo: Maybe, but that might be too exclusive. We could at least put some of them in the loot table or offer some in exchange for in-game credits later on.

Joe: That seems fair.

...

Bungie fan: Evil Bungie tycoons seek to exploit the mentally ill using underhanded psychological tricks!

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"I don't feel like getting bored making this pasta dish night after night", too.)

That's an ok reason. But that's not the reason you gave.

I've spent a few hours talking to the guy - I haven't transcribed everything we talked about. He's not a 1-dimensional video game character, he's a person. I doubt there's a single reason he does ANYTHING in his life, much less the primary task of his job - I'm sure there are DOZENS of things that went into his decision to run his restaurant the way he does.

In the future, if we're discussing something, and I provide a single example to illustrate a point I'm trying to make, please don't assume it's the ONLY example available.

It's interesting how people zero in on the worst possible motivations in order to fit a narrative.

[Scene: Bungie Meeting Room]

Joe: The game's doing well, the community seems happy. We're independent, so we've got to be a little more self-supportive. How can we generate more income?

Schmo: Microtransactions?

Joe: Maybe. But not play to win, though, and not exploitive.

Schmo: Cosmetic only then. Per season. Over time our most loyal fans will have unique stuff that identifies them as veterans of the game.

Joe: So we sell them only for a short time.

Schmo: Maybe, but that might be too exclusive. We could at least put some of them in the loot table or offer some in exchange for in-game credits later on.

Joe: That seems fair.

...

Bungie fan: Evil Bungie tycoons seek to exploit the mentally ill using underhanded psychological tricks!

And anyone who disagrees is a scummy boot licker.

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If that’s what was actually happening in the Eververse, this thread wouldn’t exist.

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If that’s what was actually happening in the Eververse, this thread wouldn’t exist.

Maybe that’s what’s happening in the mirror universe, where guardians can all have goatees.

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If that’s what was actually happening in the Eververse, this thread wouldn’t exist.

I'm probably just dense, but I don't understand why it can't be what's happening. I admit my understanding is how Eververse works is weak. Regardless, though, I bet someone, simply because Bungie wants to create timed-exclusive cosmetics combined with some chance to get items without money, someone would post that "Eververse is broken," that Bungie is maliciously creating mystic [sic], and worst of all, invoking the dreaded FOMO monster. Sigh.

I think I'm done on this topic.

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Been waiting a long time to get that off my chest. Wooh!

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Hypothetically, let's say Cody has a gambling problem, and he doesn't have the means ir self-awareness to do anything about it.

Now let's say I knowingly take advantage of this and take him for a wild ride at the poker table. Sure its hard to argue that its not Cody's responsibility to say no to me. We made an agreement and it was all legal; the fact that he has a mental health issue isnt my failt and I cant be blamed for it.

But I'm still an asshole for doing it.

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Hypothetically, let's say Cody has a gambling problem, and he doesn't have the means ir self-awareness to do anything about it.

Now let's say I knowingly take advantage of this and take him for a wild ride at the poker table. Sure its hard to argue that its not Cody's responsibility to say no to me. We made an agreement and it was all legal; the fact that he has a mental health issue isnt my failt and I cant be blamed for it.

But I'm still an asshole for doing it.

Except that you're not Bungie, and the millions of Destiny players are not all Cody. The math is a little different.

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I think the simple answer is that when you have millions of customers, there is NOTHING you can do that will not inconvenience some of them. Humans are pretty variable.

If a company committed to a policy of zero harm, they'd basically have to close. I guarantee ANYTHING a large company does is less than positive to some subset of its customer base.

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Sure, empirically zero harm is unrealistic.

I feel like a "not being an asshole" clause shouldn't be a hard sell though.

For everyone, honestly.

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Sure, empirically zero harm is unrealistic.

I feel like a "not being an asshole" clause shouldn't be a hard sell though.

For everyone, honestly.

And I totally agree. Where we differ is in the opinion about whether Bungie's being an asshole here.

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Sure, empirically zero harm is unrealistic.

I feel like a "not being an asshole" clause shouldn't be a hard sell though.

For everyone, honestly.

And I totally agree. Where we differ is in the opinion about whether Bungie's being an asshole here.

They are, by adopting this specific method of monetization. Not out of mustache-twirling evil, but out of classic Bungie ineptitude. They adopted an existing, Activision-approved model, which are, by design, as exploitative as they can reasonably get away with. Remember how everything in launch D2 pushed you to Eververse? Sure, it had stuff available for Dust, and a decent rate of reward, but it was all tied to the loot box aspect, which, by design, exists to squeeze the most money out of you as possible, by not letting you get exactly what you want outside of chance. When you’re getting your tenth blue transmat effect, the free engrams exist more as a reminder of the store than as an ancillary reward that comes with playing the game for fun.

They have since moved away from it being a central focus of item acquisition, opting to supplement it with the expensive-but-guaranteed model, designed to target whales and streamers and such. It’s still exploitative, but not outright evil... even though better, fairer models exist, and Bungie could totally embrace them, while still making plenty of money from the store... The powers that be simply choose not to.

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Absolutely.

But too often these conversations take the responsibility out of the equation and focus solely on the company. Almost to the point that you’d think all it takes to get everyone to open their wallet is to hire some psychologists to write a paper about an online game store. Quite frankly, these conversations, without directly stating it, paint most people as gullible morons who are helpless in the face of a rotating selection or whatever...

Maybe there should be better laws and rules governing this stuff. And special considerations for people who do have known conditions that make them more susceptible to gambling type urges. But personable responsibility must[/] also play a large role or what’s the point of anything?

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Agreed.

Everyone needs to take responsibility on both sides.

But unfortunately until laws are implemented to force the people making the money to pretend they care about profiting responsibly it wont happen.

Which is why its important to shout and shake and make a fuss evey time.

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Glad to have you back.

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If they stopped selling Eververse stuff for Bright Dust altogether, would that make the system less or more scummy?

Yes. That would be a huge improvement, both in terms of impact on the game design, and sense of fairness towards players.

I sort of feel like the people arguing that the current system is predatory DO feel like the system would be fairer if the Bright Dust economy simply vanished... which seems insane to me, since it's basically just free stuff.

It's not free. The bright dust economy is based on making you grind for it. The design of the game is changed around this. If bright dust were easy to earn, nobody would pay for items with money. You pay for it by having a game that wastes more of your time, which you can't avoid by just ignoring the microtransactions.

If it's free stuff you want… you could just as easily argue that it would be trivial to simply include these items in the game in the first place with no store… You pay 60 bucks and you get everything. Like how it used to be.

The fact that you are seeing bright dust items as 'free' means the system is working as intended.

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It's not free. The bright dust economy is based on making you grind for it. The design of the game is changed around this.

Everything is based on this design - including non-Eververse stuff. This is a non-argument.

If bright dust were easy to earn, nobody would pay for items with money.

This is totally false. The thread started today because of a post on reddit that showed that most stuff ISN'T ever going to be available for dust.

If it's free stuff you want… you could just as easily argue that it would be trivial to simply include these items in the game in the first place with no store… You pay 60 bucks and you get everything. Like how it used to be.

Oh, you mean when games were made by teams of 1-10 people, in 6 months or less?

Yeah, I remember those days.

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Oh, you mean when games were made by teams of 1-10 people, in 6 months or less?

Yeah, I remember those days.

That's funny. Detroit Become Human was made by 180 people over the course of a few years with cutting edge graphics and story branching. And where the microtransactions there?

What about Zelda Breath of the Wild? No microtransactions.

God of War didn't have any.

How odd that three modern AAA cutting edge games didn't need them.

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Oh, you mean when games were made by teams of 1-10 people, in 6 months or less?

Yeah, I remember those days.

That's funny. Detroit Become Human was made by 180 people over the course of a few years with cutting edge graphics and story branching. And where the microtransactions there?

What about Zelda Breath of the Wild? No microtransactions.

God of War didn't have any.

How odd that three modern AAA cutting edge games didn't need them.

And yet none of those are live games. There is a big difference. In fact, are any of those games even multiplayer games?

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Oh, you mean when games were made by teams of 1-10 people, in 6 months or less?

Yeah, I remember those days.

That's funny. Detroit Become Human was made by 180 people over the course of a few years with cutting edge graphics and story branching. And where the microtransactions there?

What about Zelda Breath of the Wild? No microtransactions.

God of War didn't have any.

How odd that three modern AAA cutting edge games didn't need them.

And yet none of those are live games. There is a big difference. In fact, are any of those games even multiplayer games?

This is a solid point. Anyone know if there are any multiplayer AAA games that don't have microtransactions?

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Oh, you mean when games were made by teams of 1-10 people, in 6 months or less?

Yeah, I remember those days.

That's funny. Detroit Become Human was made by 180 people over the course of a few years with cutting edge graphics and story branching. And where the microtransactions there?

What about Zelda Breath of the Wild? No microtransactions.

God of War didn't have any.

How odd that three modern AAA cutting edge games didn't need them.

And yet none of those are live games. There is a big difference. In fact, are any of those games even multiplayer games?

This is a solid point. Anyone know if there are any multiplayer AAA games that don't have microtransactions?

I mean, a live game is far more important to my counter point, but multiplayer games still have to maintain a server and stuff so that's money they have to account for when they sell their game.

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WoW used to not have microtransactions, when it was subscription only. A monthly fee, I think, is the only alternative I've seen (in an mmo example).

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It’s not a monthly fee exactly, but Destiny has that too. Paid expansions every year, paying for a season pass every season, and microtransactions.

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It’s not a monthly fee exactly, but Destiny has that too. Paid expansions every year, paying for a season pass every season, and microtransactions.

see that is what I was trying to say to Cody a living game has to make their money somehow. The expansions are paid for by buying them, but the live game content that is free has to be paid for somehow.

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Well as long as it has to be paid for somehow, I’m really thrilled Bungie decided to use cheap manipulative tricks to get some people to finance the content every technically gets for free. Seems like a really great system!

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It’s not a monthly fee exactly, but Destiny has that too. Paid expansions every year, paying for a season pass every season, and microtransactions.

It's not a monthly fee at ALL.

I can choose not to buy the Season pass, and I'd still be able to play Destiny. (Not all of its content, sure, but plenty of it.)

If I choose not to pay WoW's monthly fee, though, I can't play at ALL.

(I've said this before, but I'll say it again: if Bungie switched to a small monthly fee that equalled out to exactly the same money in a year that I'd spend on their Season Pass, I'd stop playing. Period. It's not about the money, it's about how the system makes me feel.)

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I genuinely don’t think you’re naive. I know I sound harsh. That’s at least partially intentional.

I don’t think that telling people to be more responsible with their money or justifying it as just a business doing business is the answer. It’s like telling a gambling addict to just stop gambling, as if that’s easy. The Eververse is literally relying on those tendency to make money. That’s as much a fact as the earth being round. That’s what I mean by not debatable. You can argue the merits of such a system all day long, but that it’s designed to play into the fear of missing out is just a thing that’s true.

Yeah, I agree with you that Eververse could definitely improve. I just don't agree with you on the extent that this business practice is literally exploiting helpless FOMO people. I specifically said "helpless" because of what you said about gambling. I have a strong annoyance of people who think that people with disorders are "helpless" and that people are taking advantage of them. I say that because I have a disorder. And while I appreciate things that either don't escalate my disorder and/or help be compensate in some way to live a "normal" life, I also understand that this is my life and I am solely responsible for it. So in that regards, to use your gambling example, I don't think that people should intentionally invite a gambler addict over to a game of poker, but I also don't think a gambler should go to a casino or any other place where they might be compromised.

In the same way, I don't think that Bungie/eververse should specifically target disorders or behavior patterns, but I also think that we as people, not just gamers, need to understand that we have a responsibility too. And this is mostly what I argue, it's very easy to for us to say as gamers that it's the other persons fault and we hold no responsibility. So when I see the post that you see, all I saw was a one sided "Bungie is evil for doing X" with no other side of the equation.

So I guess to finalize this thought, I'm not debating with you that behaviors/disorders can be exploited, I'm saying that exploitation is a two way street in that both sides, to some degree, are allowing it to happen, developers and gamers. And both sides can improve.

I’m not here saying Eververse is the worst thing to ever happen. On the spectrum of these things in video games, it’s a hell of a lot better than most. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t ask for and expect better.

And I've agreed with that from the very start :D I just think the consumer/gamer needs to be factored in as well.

I agree with you on a lot of things. I don’t think every person needs every item in a game (at least cosmetics—I still honestly do have issues with the fact that something like Cody missing Hawkmoon for an actual year is something that can happen in a video game he paid a lot of money for). I don’t mind that some things can only be bought for real money. I think obfuscating which items those are is a really shitty thing to do.

You will never convince me the weekly rotation isn’t designed to get as much money as possible.

I think every business that wants an increased revenue year to year while not sacrificing their customers. We can both agree that this was designed to make as much money as possible, I just think we differ on at how much of an expense it is on the consumer.

How many people will spend a bunch of bright dust on armor, only to miss one piece one week and then have to spend money to complete the set? That’s predatory, I would bet good money that’s a feature, not a bug.

I mean, honestly we had this conversation before that money and time are both currency (at least that's my belief). So in that sense I think that everyone is buying the armor one way or another. What people don't like is that some people have more money than time and vice versa. But for your example, I don't necessary consider this Predatory (I hate that word, I just keep seeing a Bungie employee pouncing on a gamer and ripping his jugular out) because Bungie has explicitly stated that Destiny is a live game where things can you can say "I played while this was happening" and if you miss it you miss it. I see that as the same thing for a weekly armor piece, if you weren't on that week then you missed out. But at least they give you the option to buy it later.

I don't know, I mean to each their own on what people think Destiny should be.

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You can argue about people needing better impulse control all you want, it doesn’t change the fact that these practices are predatory and literally designed to exploit those types of people. They hired literal psychologists to help design this shit. It’s design is not accidental. The fact that anyone would defend it as fine because they’re just a business trying to make money and people should be more responsible is honestly as troubling as the store’s issues are.

Are you referring to "Bungie Used Behavioral Psychology to Make Destiny Appealing" from 2015 or something else?

Because I can't find anything related to Eververse or an online store in there. It's all about making a game that players will want to play. And it's hardly as nefarious as you and a few others have made it out to be...

One of the key quotes is this:

What is being offered here is not a blueprint for perfect games, it is a primer to some of the basic ways people react to different patterns of rewards. Every computer game is implicitly asking its players to react in certain ways. Psychology can offer a framework and a vocabulary for understanding what we are already telling our players.

That is, games already had motivations and drawbacks long before Bungie hired someone to write them a paper and long before they implemented some buttons in play tests for players to let them know which parts of the game they liked and didn't like.

I'd kinda forgotten about this and was sorta taking it at face value that the psychology argument was valid. Now, having read through all of this again, I think your psychology argument is crap in general, and it specifically had nothing to do with Eververse in the first place.

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Its a very common side effect of general anxiety disorders, and I am getting help.

I also have a personal rule about not supporting that kind of business model.

Offloading the responsibility onto me to seek help however doesn't change the fact that the business model is designed to apply additional pressure from external social factors and influences. Which yes does include intentionally taking advantage of people with anxiety or other mental health disorders, and can have extremely negative effects.

Obviously Bungie is not responsible for anyone's mental health, but opting in to protifing from it (and intentionally making their game less enjoyable to do so) makes me uncomfortable for what i'd hope are pretty obvious reasons.

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Its a very common side effect of general anxiety disorders, and I am getting help.

I also have a personal rule about not supporting that kind of business model.

Offloading the responsibility onto me to seek help however doesn't change the fact that the business model is designed to apply additional pressure from external social factors and influences. Which yes does include intentionally taking advantage of people with anxiety or other mental health disorders, and can have extremely negative effects.

Obviously Bungie is not responsible for anyone's mental health, but opting in to protifing from it (and intentionally making their game less enjoyable to do so) makes me uncomfortable for what i'd hope are pretty obvious reasons.

Every supermarket I've been in in the past 25 years (and almost certainly longer, though I wasn't really paying attention before then) manipulates their stock and presentation to play to my weaknesses. I completely understand that this is worse for people with a disorder, but it's effective on people without them - and it doesn't make me boycott supermarkets (or even, really, get mad about it).

I guess what I'm saying is that the vast majority of entities that sell stuff make use of human foibles to sell more stuff - getting mad at Bungie seems silly to me, unless I'm willing to be mad at almost everyone. (I'm not.)

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I guess what I'm saying is that the vast majority of entities that sell stuff make use of human foibles to sell more stuff - getting mad at Bungie seems silly to me, unless I'm willing to be mad at almost everyone. (I'm not.)

Be mad. You recognise something is wrong everywhere. Be mad about it! I understand picking your battles but saying "everything sucks so Its okay that this sucks" is a pretty weak hill to plant your flag on.

Especilly in a young industry that has only recently discovered they can pull this stuff off. If you dont have the energy to be mad about everything, be mad about the newest, most malleable version of it thats corrupting a honby you love and a developer you've followed for years.

Or throw your hands up and say "I dont have the energy to care, so nor should you" I guess. Aggressive apthy is the internet's greatest gift to predatory behviour.

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I guess what I'm saying is that the vast majority of entities that sell stuff make use of human foibles to sell more stuff - getting mad at Bungie seems silly to me, unless I'm willing to be mad at almost everyone. (I'm not.)

Be mad. You recognise something is wrong everywhere. Be mad about it! I understand picking your battles but saying "everything sucks so Its okay that this sucks" is a pretty weak hill to plant your flag on.

I'm not planting my flag at all. I'm saying that I have a limited amount of energy to spend, and this is not where I want to spend it. (In fact, this discussion pretty much exceeds the amount of energy I'm usually okay with spending on this topic.)

I'm totally okay with others fighting this battle; i recognize that if change happens, things might get better for some people. (They might get worse for me, in the process, and that sort of sucks... but I'm okay with it, because I really don't care enough.)

For example: let's say enough people get mad, and make enough noise that Bungie decides to be more forthright about what they're selling, and when. But as a consequence to that, they decide to do away with the Bright Dust economy, because part of the issue here is that folks are holding off purchasing things on the off chance they MIGHT be able to get them for free later, and Bungie decides that removing the free option solves that problem.

Your anxiety is now reduced; you KNOW what's available and when. But my gameplay experience is worse, because the random freebies I've been getting just dried up.

::shrug::

None of it matters enough to me to fight, one way or the other. But ALL of us need to realize that we are not the only consumers, and there are people out there with different goals and hopes than we have, and that any change we effect might be bad for some of them.

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Is how many times you've seen this whoooooole thing play out over the last two years while Ive been away.

Im surprised you havent all agreed to just number your arguments for and against for speed and convenience by now

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Is how many times you've seen this whoooooole thing play out over the last two years while Ive been away.

Im surprised you havent all agreed to just number your arguments for and against for speed and convenience by now

5. I know you'll say 7, so I'll say 12 preemptively.

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My problem here is this:

Free stuff is cool.

You being disappointed in free stuff going away suggests that having that free stuff is worth manipulating others into spending their money for that same stuff.

I know that’s not the argument you are making, but is legitimately the only way I can view what is currently happening with the Eververse.

I don’t think it’s some ultra nefarious store designed to trick people into spending their rent money on digital trinkets. I thinks it’s explicitly designed to manipulate anyone they can into buying stuff. On some level, that’s just what marketing is, and, again, that’s the point. The Eververse is just a symptom of a larger problem.

Grocery stores putting the Snickers bars next to the register is manipulative. Is it something we need to be up in arms about? Probably not. But we need to all accept that it is manipulative.

Eververse is the same way, only, instead of putting a Snickers bar next to register, it’s 50 different limited edition Snickers bars, and you better get them right now, because they’ll be gone soon, and you know you just want to collect them all, don’t you? You don’t won’t to regret not buying it when they’re gone next week.

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My problem here is this:

Free stuff is cool.

You being disappointed in free stuff going away suggests that having that free stuff is worth manipulating others into spending their money for that same stuff.

I know that’s not the argument you are making, but is legitimately the only way I can view what is currently happening with the Eververse.

I don’t think it’s some ultra nefarious store designed to trick people into spending their rent money on digital trinkets. I thinks it’s explicitly designed to manipulate anyone they can into buying stuff. On some level, that’s just what marketing is, and, again, that’s the point. The Eververse is just a symptom of a larger problem.

Grocery stores putting the Snickers bars next to the register is manipulative. Is it something we need to be up in arms about? Probably not. But we need to all accept that it is manipulative.

Eververse is the same way, only, instead of putting a Snickers bar next to register, it’s 50 different limited edition Snickers bars, and you better get them right now, because they’ll be gone soon, and you know you just want to collect them all, don’t you? You don’t won’t to regret not buying it when they’re gone next week.

To me, your examples are identical, and your last paragraph makes no sense.

Eververse isn't 50 different limited edition Snickers, it's Snickers, and Milky Ways, and whatever. There's 50 different ones for each (Eververse and the supermarket checkout line), and all of them call to me. I KNOW they're trying to manipulate me. Sometimes I let them, because I like Snickers bars. (And Harpy Ghosts.) Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'm even annoyed by the attempt.

None of it gets me worked up. (Being told that I SHOULD be worked up gets me worked up, interestingly.)

We're always gonna disagree on this; I get that. I'm not going to convince you that it's background noise that isn't going to go away, and you're not going to convince me that it's evil, and should be fought against. (I'm not even sure you're TRYING to convince me of that. I'm actually a little confused by your arguments; you qualify things by saying "I like buying stuff, and I'm not angry", but you also say they're doing terrible things and those things should absolutely be considered terrible. I'm not sure which side to believe.)

I guess that for me, it comes down to what someotherguy said (and Cody has said before him): you should get mad about injustice, and fight against it when you see it... but my feeling is, the world is FULL of injustice, and I have a finite amount of fight in me. My energy for fighting injustice is currently being spent fighting the cash bail system in America. It's a pretty noble fight, I think, and I put a lot of energy into it. I'm gonna let this one go, except in abstract discussions on a friendly gaming forum.

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No, you’re right there. I don’t have any hard feelings for anyone that doesn’t care. I honestly don’t care as much as this thread probably makes it seem.

It’s a principle thing. If you’re going to sell me something, just let me buy the fucking thing instead of making me check back every week in the hopes that maybe I can buy it, or hope I didn’t miss the thing I wanted to buy last week.

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I guess that for me, it comes down to what someotherguy said (and Cody has said before him): you should get mad about injustice, and fight against it when you see it... but my feeling is, the world is FULL of injustice, and I have a finite amount of fight in me. My energy for fighting injustice is currently being spent fighting the cash bail system in America. It's a pretty noble fight, I think, and I put a lot of energy into it. I'm gonna let this one go, except in abstract discussions on a friendly gaming forum.

The beauty is that you can fight this with no energy at all. Just never ever buy anything from the Eververse.

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I guess that for me, it comes down to what someotherguy said (and Cody has said before him): you should get mad about injustice, and fight against it when you see it... but my feeling is, the world is FULL of injustice, and I have a finite amount of fight in me. My energy for fighting injustice is currently being spent fighting the cash bail system in America. It's a pretty noble fight, I think, and I put a lot of energy into it. I'm gonna let this one go, except in abstract discussions on a friendly gaming forum.

The beauty is that you can fight this with no energy at all. Just never ever buy anything from the Eververse.

If you believe that resisting temptation requires zero energy, you might be less in tune with human psychology than you think you are.

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If you believe that resisting temptation requires zero energy, you might be less in tune with human psychology than you think you are.

You can teach yourself not to be tempted in the first place. If you don't have the temptation, there's no need to resist it.

I've never bought a single microtransation in my life. I guess maybe initially there was some kind of expenditure of energy to become resolved, but once you do it you never have to worry again.

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If you believe that resisting temptation requires zero energy, you might be less in tune with human psychology than you think you are.

You can teach yourself not to be tempted in the first place. If you don't have the temptation, there's no need to resist it.

I've never bought a single microtransation in my life. I guess maybe initially there was some kind of expenditure of energy to become resolved, but once you do it you never have to worry again.

And the difference between you and me is that I actually like and endorse some micro-transactions. And we all know that neither of us will change each others minds on that. And I would believe it's the same for Claude. But more to his point is that it does take energy. Some more or less than others.

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Grocery stores putting the Snickers bars next to the register is manipulative. Is it something we need to be up in arms about? Probably not. But we need to all accept that it is manipulative.

Carter-A259 said it best with: “You’re preaching to the converted.”

Who here doesn’t agree that some planning went into product placement at Walmart or at Eververse? The real question is if it’s a problem we need to be up in arms about.

Probably not.

Ok then.

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I’d argue that nobody at Bungie is intentionally targeting those with mental health issues. Like someone said earlier, it’s just regular people who work at Bungie. They’re not sitting there laughing over how much more effective their evil plan will work on people prone to addictions. Should there be more safeguards? Maybe. I think that’s totally worth discussing as gamers and as a society. Does someone at Bungie or sine other company have it out for people with gambling addictions? I highly doubt it!

Basically, “intentionally” is a very strong word that shouldn’t be thrown assertions lightly...

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As much as we dont want to associate individual humans with predatory business practices (because John Smith the QA tester is a lovely dude!), it's still going to be someone at Bungie's job to think about how to maximise profits from people within specific subgroups. And among those subgroups will be the young, the impressionable, those with impulse control issues, those with anxiety issues.

And they wont be doing it off their own backs because they have a personal dislike for people.

Probably.

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it's still going to be someone at Bungie's job to think about how to maximise profits from people within specific subgroups. And among those subgroups will be the young, the impressionable, those with impulse control issues, those with anxiety issues.

...and, THIS. This is where you and I disagree.

I would actually bet money that it's NOBODY's job at Bungie to think about how to maximize profits from vulnerable subgroups. And that assumption (that that job actually exists) is what's driven most of the discussion from the people who are negative about Eververse.

(I would argue - strongly - that while it IS someone's job to figure out how to maximize profits, there is a difference between the general and your specific - a big one.)

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I dont think theres a "Vulnerable Subgroup Targetter" title at Bungie.

But someone will be getting paid to work out what brings home the bacon and what doesn't. Which demographics spend well where and why. And the tactics that work, the ones that make bank, those are the ones that take advantage.

And if you and I are cognisant enough of that fact to have this discussion, then people at Bungie are too.

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I dont think theres a "Vulnerable Subgroup Targetter" title at Bungie.

But someone will be getting paid to work out what brings home the bacon and what doesn't. Which demographics spend well where and why. And the tactics that work, the ones that make bank, those are the ones that take advantage.

And if you and I are cognisant enough of that fact to have this discussion, then people at Bungie are too.

Never claimed they weren't cognizant of the situation, just that they weren't specifically taking advantage of it. The techniques that trigger people with anxiety - sell things with vague start/end dates, keep details diffuse - also work on the general public; there doesn't have to be a conspiracy to target vulnerable populations to use techniques that do, in fact, do that.

As I said in an earlier post, I'd bet that most of the problems with the system are a function of underthinking, instead of overthinking.

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Never claimed they weren't cognizant of the situation, just that they weren't specifically taking advantage of it. The techniques that trigger people with anxiety - sell things with vague start/end dates, keep details diffuse - also work on the general public; there doesn't have to be a conspiracy to target vulnerable populations to use techniques that do, in fact, do that.

That’s the heart of the issue for me. I don’t necessarily think that Bungie is out there maliciously targeting vulnerable people. I don’t think that makes it much better, because those tactics are still at least moderately dishonest. Those tactics do work on the general population, not just folks we might say are vulnerable.

I envision a world in which Bungie is confident enough in what they’re selling to just sell it with no tricks or caveats. Why should anyone else value and respect their product (and the work that went into creating it) when they don’t seem to themselves?

I don’t have any faces I can attach to the corporation that is Bungie. I’ve played with Peter a handful of times, and he seems like an extremely cool guy and I enjoy playing with him every time it happens. I want to believe Bungie is filled with people like that. I mostly do. I certainly don’t think they’re mustache-twirling villains trying to pillage al of our money. I just think they can do better. And, at least partially, I cannot divorce Bungie from the larger corporate culture of video games (or just in general). I wouldn’t trust any large company farther than I could throw them. That doesn’t change for Bungie just because I like the video games they make.

Despite appearances, this isn’t something I care to really fight either. The money I spend is proof enough of that. I don’t have the desire or the energy. Fortunately, arguing on the internet doesn’t take much energy. (:

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I don’t think that makes it much better, because those tactics are still at least moderately dishonest.

It's a store with a rotating selection, good previews of every item, and a generous return policy. There's nothing dishonest about that in the least!

Wishing that you could buy an item after it has rotated out is one thing. We all agree on that. Calling people dishonest, scummy, boot lickers, predatory, etc, is something else entirely. And all for something you say you're not really that invested in.

I don't get it. :(

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I dont know about bootlicking, but definitely shady, predatory, underhanded. Not even intentionally, necessary. But intent doesnt change the reality.

The fact that its normalised enough that you can point to other places and say "see, its everywhere" doesnt make it better.

"The system is flawed" is never a good enough excuse for benefiting from said system to the detriment of others.

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I dont know about bootlicking, but definitely shady, predatory, underhanded. Not even intentionally, necessary. But intent doesnt change the reality.

The fact that its normalised enough that you can point to other places and say "see, its everywhere" doesnt make it better.

"The system is flawed" is never a good enough excuse for benefiting from said system to the detriment of others.

There is no detriment to others. You can buy the items if you want to. Or not if you don't. The end. That's sooo predatory! Sooo underhanded!

Well... at least this part of the thread has the title "ah come on now"...

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Even the people defending the practice here are mostly willing to admit it's manipulative and unpleasant, they just dont care/aren't willing to get upset ablut it.

Miss me with that "I cant see a problem if I close my eyes" shit

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Even the people defending the practice here are mostly willing to admit it's manipulative and unpleasant, they just dont care/aren't willing to get upset ablut it.

Miss me with that "I cant see a problem if I close my eyes" shit

Yes, you forced a couple of people to admit that basic human nature includes wanting things. Big deal.

And what's the solution that would satisfy you? Let's see:

- We need no time pressure. Well, that one is impossible unless you think Eververse will remain open for the rest of your life.
- We need no placement or graphics that might entice the weak minded. Would a black and white alphabetical list in a serifed font work
- We need no social pressure. Hmm... not sure how to solve that one. What if you see someone using an emote you don't have? You'd be pressured to buy it!

Seems like the only thing that will work is to have no store at all... Anything else runs afoul of your unreasonably strict rules.

The correct thing for you to do is to say, "Man, I wish the whole selection was available." We all agree with that. Instead, you're at "Eververse makes Bungie shady, predatory, underhanded, assholes who intentionally target children and the mentally ill."

Now that's shit.

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Now that's shit.

No, this entire post is shit.

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No, this entire post is shit.

Why? Because I used some hyperbole. Like you haven't done that, too. I just summed up statements that were already out there.

Intentionally taking advantage of people with mental health disorders:

Offloading the responsibility onto me to seek help however doesn't change the fact that the business model is designed to apply additional pressure from external social factors and influences. Which yes does include intentionally taking advantage of people with anxiety or other mental health disorders, and can have extremely negative effects.

Now let's say I knowingly take advantage of this and take him for a wild ride at the poker table. Sure its hard to argue that its not Cody's responsibility to say no to me. We made an agreement and it was all legal; the fact that he has a mental health issue isnt my failt and I cant be blamed for it.

Intentionally target the young:

As much as we dont want to associate individual humans with predatory business practices (because John Smith the QA tester is a lovely dude!), it's still going to be someone at Bungie's job to think about how to maximise profits from people within specific subgroups. And among those subgroups will be the young, the impressionable, those with impulse control issues, those with anxiety issues.

Shady, predatory, underhanded:

I dont know about bootlicking, but definitely shady, predatory, underhanded. Not even intentionally, necessary. But intent doesnt change the reality.

The part about the ideal store was certainly hyperbole, but based in things said around this thread. The fear of missing out. The social pressure that comes when everyone buys the broom emote except you. The way stores have forever used item placement and packaging to entice shoppers to make a purchase favoring a product they might not have considered otherwise. I did this because I'm of the opinion that these kinds of things are being blown way, way out of proportion.

In these web arguments, it is so easy to throw around vile accusations as if they were a part of a polite conversation. But they're not! Claude put the best face on it. Destiny's developers are real people doing their best to balance entertainment, profit, and surprisingly limited amounts of development time. They don't deserve even half of the things said about them in this thread.

If there are errors, or issues, or even unfairnesses with Eververse, it is far more likely that it's just that good intentions viewed from one side in this debate (give our biggest fans some cosmetic items they can buy and have as kind of exclusives to show that they were present at certain time periods since those cosmetics rotate out) are being viewed as dastardly (Bungie is hiring psychologists and preying on people with addiction issues just to make more unnecessary profit) by the other side. But which side should be the default here? The one that trends towards paranoia and name calling and thinking that there's someone within the company intentionally trying to exploit people? Or the one where we first assume that developers are just people like us, and that even though an online store might not meet our every expectation, it also wasn't set up by assholes working in bad faith.

Now, someotherguy, in case it's not clear, I appreciate your willingness to dive into this debate. If I didn't, I wouldn't respond to you at all. That I do means I find your arguments and voice very valuable to the discussion as a whole. Sure, I am of the opinion that you pushed too far in your accusations of developers' and marketers' behavior. But you have some great points too. Some that we haven't really touched on as strongly. For instance:

Especilly in a young industry that has only recently discovered they can pull this stuff off. If you dont have the energy to be mad about everything, be mad about the newest, most malleable version of it thats corrupting a honby you love and a developer you've followed for years.

Within the last few years, there's been some developers who really have violated their players' trust. That Star Wars Battlefront game from a year or two ago that went straight up pay to win, for instance. Suddenly players with more money to spend didn't just have some fancy hat or emote. They had superior weapons and powers and whole characters. I find that far worse than anything Eververse has done.

Likewise, I take a very, very dim view of platform exclusive in-game items like what Sony and Bungie did for Destiny and Destiny 2 up until Shadowkeep. I think a PlayStation player and Xbox player who pay the same $60 should get the same content. Instead, the PlayStation players got extra guns, extra multiplayer maps, extra Strikes, and some extra cosmetics. Entire games locked to a platform permanently or temporally (like The Last of Us, or Halo) are fine. Taking money from two people and giving one noticeably less isn't.

Thankfully, all these things are not yet ingrained in our gaming culture and thankfully we still have time to change them when they do pop up from time to time. These kinds of issues have received a ton of pushback from gamers in recent years. The Star Wars game got it's micro transactions essentially ripped out. Destiny (finally) treats Xbox, PlayStation, and PC players equally. And we, as gamers, can hopefully use our voices to keep in-game stores from straying too far into negative territory. But the accusations and finger pointing needs to be kept reasonable. And I don't think it has been here.

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Thankfully, all these things are not yet ingrained in our gaming culture and thankfully we still have time to change them when they do pop up from time to time.

Funny coming from the guy who wants to just bury his head in the sand.

Apparently when anyone else uses hyperbole it’s over the line, but not when the righteous Ragashingo does it. Your at least as belittling and hostile as you accuse me of being, you just hide it in prettier language. Be the change you want to see in the world, Raga. Or maybe just get fucked. Either way, I’m done.

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Thankfully, all these things are not yet ingrained in our gaming culture and thankfully we still have time to change them when they do pop up from time to time.

Funny coming from the guy who wants to just bury his head in the sand.

I am for the direct purchase of all Eververse items. Said that somewhere up above already. I just take the view that the current state of things is no reason for all the developer name calling and paranoia demonstrated in this thread.

Apparently when anyone else uses hyperbole it’s over the line, but not when the righteous Ragashingo does it. Your at least as belittling and hostile as you accuse me of being, you just hide it in prettier language. Be the change you want to see in the world, Raga.

But isn't the opposite true? Aren't you just saying that your use of hyperbole and hostility is fine but mine isn't? How does that make any sense?!

Or maybe just get fucked. Either way, I’m done.

Not a classy end, but that's actually ok. Serious issues. Serious disagreements. Tensions can run high. Not every disagreement has an amicable compromise. I think you're wrong. You think I am. Cool. The world keeps on spinning. Like I said in my poor "Also..." post way down below all on its own, I enjoy threads like this. I enjoy the back and forth. I enjoy worthy opponents. That certainly includes you. And I wouldn't reply if I didn't think you'd at least consider what was said.

That, and there hasn't been a good argument around here in a while. This was fun. I hope we get to do it again.

A good day to you, sir. :)

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I’m done, indeed. (:

I don’t hate you. Just needed that to be known. I communicate the way I communicate. Believe it or not, I do work on it. I know I come off as abrasive. If you sat down and talked to me face to face, I wager you’d not have that impression, even if the words I said were nearly identical.

I offer no excuses. I don’t regret anything I said, and I’d do it again tomorrow (until Claude gets fed up and gets rid of me for a few days, which might not be far off).

Here’s the difference: I don’t pretend I have some sort of moral high ground then turn around and do the same thing I lambast others for in the next paragraph.

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I offer no excuses. I don’t regret anything I said, and I’d do it again tomorrow (until Claude gets fed up and gets rid of me for a few days, which might not be far off).

You're not gonna get banned for anything said in this thread. Neither is anyone else (though Korny's response to Raga this morning came pretty close).

I just wish we could stay on the actual discussion, and not turn to personal attacks. (And yes, both sides are guilty of this; Raga's been doing it too, though he stepped back and brought his argument back to a higher level after his hyperbolic post.)

Everyone comes here with history. Some of us have personal stakes in the argument, some see it as an example of a bigger issue. (Some are in both of those camps, and others besides.)

Your point that your words probably wouldn't be taken the same way if spoken face to face are absolutely true, and something we ALL need to remember; it's super-easy to see the text, shorn of human context (like tone of voice, or a smile on the face, or a raised eyebrow) and put a spin on the other guy's argument that really wasn't intended. And then react to that spin.

I will echo Raga's sentiment that discussions like this are good - even when they get heated, I enjoy them. (Cody pointed out to me that I've been posting quite a bit more than usual in this thread - I'm not entirely sure why it triggered me to engage as I have, since I DON'T feel the moral outrage (or whatever the less intense version of that is - I know nobody here is ready to find their pitchfork) about what Bungie's doing to its userbase. But it's been fun, and I'm glad it's been going on.

I just want folks to remember that mostly, we're friends here, and disagreements shouldn't bring out personal attacks. :(

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You're not gonna get banned for anything said in this thread. Neither is anyone else (though Korny's response to Raga this morning came pretty close).

You mean the one where he insulted my choice of armour, right? ;p

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You're not gonna get banned for anything said in this thread. Neither is anyone else (though Korny's response to Raga this morning came pretty close).

You mean the one where he insulted my choice of armour, right? ;p

No, definitely not that one. That Titan armor might be the ugliest armor in all of D2!

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You're not gonna get banned for anything said in this thread. Neither is anyone else (though Korny's response to Raga this morning came pretty close).

You mean the one where he insulted my choice of armour, right? ;p

No, definitely not that one. That Titan armor might be the ugliest armor in all of D2!

[image]

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I’m done, indeed. (:

It feels silly to keep going past the "I'm done" marker... but sure, why not. It happens. I mostly see this as a nice cool down after a heated debate. Not a failing on your part or mine for continuing after we said we wouldn't. Especially when we're not redebating the points we already walked away from.

I don’t hate you. Just needed that to be known. I communicate the way I communicate. Believe it or not, I do work on it. I know I come off as abrasive. If you sat down and talked to me face to face, I wager you’d not have that impression, even if the words I said were nearly identical.

I offer no excuses. I don’t regret anything I said, and I’d do it again tomorrow (until Claude gets fed up and gets rid of me for a few days, which might not be far off).

Yeah. I get it. I feel the same. I hold you in no ill will. And I don't apologize for my actions, either. Again, this whole thread was both meaningful and fun. I'm sure we could have a good lunch discussion if we were in the same place, no problem.

Here’s the difference: I don’t pretend I have some sort of moral high ground then turn around and do the same thing I lambast others for in the next paragraph.

Well... except in that paragraph there, at least. You do see the irony, right?? "We both do A but at least I don't do B."? :p

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I did this because I'm of the opinion that these kinds of things are being blown way, way out of proportion.

Of course you are. Because it doesn't have that effect on you, so it doesn't exist.

Thank goodness you are the centre of the universe and have had the Exactly Average Human Experience so you can speak for all of us.

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I did this because I'm of the opinion that these kinds of things are being blown way, way out of proportion.

Of course you are. Because it doesn't have that effect on you, so it doesn't exist.

Thank goodness you are the centre of the universe and have had the Exactly Average Human Experience so you can speak for all of us.

Everyone here is speaking their own experience. What we all need to understand is that everyone has their own experience. You obviously have more to speak on this because of your experiences. That is fine. What Is not fine is your idea that we all need to be up in arms as much as you.

That is not going to happen. Claude talked about it in a different post how the changes you want might directly affect other people negatively because they have a different experience than you. Both gaming and how Eververse/Bungie is presenting MTs. I understand from what you have said that you find it predatory, but not everyone does. Does that make us more fortunate? You less so? No. It makes of different.

I've said it before and I will say it again, I have a disorder that has been mocked, laughed at, caused life to be at a disadvantage. However I can't expect everyone to bend to my will because some company unintentionally targeted my disorders triggers. Do I think things could be changed up a little to give me a break? Maybe. Do I expect things to change? No. It's on me for what life gave me.

This is my opinion. It runs through my very being because my disorder is part of who I am. And You have every right to disagree with it.

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What Is not fine is your idea that we all need to be up in arms as much as you.

I think you're taking away the wrong message. I'd like it if everyone was as upset by it as I am, for sure. I think if more people made a fuss about this stuff it would be less common. But I appreciate and recognise that not everyone feels the need or desire to be involved in that discourse.

Claude and a couple of others have said they just don't have the time or energy to be angry about it. Totally valid! Others are annoyed about it but would prefer not to get caught up in debate. Also totally reasonable.

What I find irksome is the attitude of some like Raga who would not only jam fingers in their ears and say "lalala I'm not listening, I didnt see it so it didnt happen", but actively tell others "You're exaggerating, you're being unreasonable, you should believe this is fine" because their "personal" experiece has been fine.

I think a part of it is that is Raga wants to see the narrative I'm telling as one of "evil Bungie, manipulating and making dark deals". Which is a more exciting story, but not what I'm saying.

I don't think the use of shady or predatory business practices inherently comes from a predatory or irresponsible place. I dont think anyone is wringing their hands, cackling and thinking up new ways to trick unhappy people into spending their money. Not at Bungie at least.

But the ways exist. They've already been invented. You might not even realise you're using something manipulative if you're just pulling it from the list of "successful microtransaction business models" you Heard about at that last conference. But whatever the intent, they are being used at Bungie. And I would hope that by making enough noise, the completely reasonable people at Bungie might rethink their approach.

(You'll have to allow me a little facetiousness, its in my blood. But I think the point stands even without).

That is not going to happen. Claude talked about it in a different post how the changes you want might directly affect other people negatively because they have a different experience than you.

I'd personally point out that some negative experiences are worse than others. I'm willing to say that the negative experiences felt by those no longer getting free stuff at the expense of others is very low on my (personal) list.

Of course I understand how if you're part of the group who solely benefit from exploitative practices you might feel differently.

I understand from what you have said that you find it predatory, but not everyone does.

A Giant Sunfish doesn't find a Coyote predatory, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a predator.

It's on me for what life gave me.

I know nothing at all about your disorder, though I'm sorry to hear you've had such a negative experience because of it. I completely reject the notion that you should just do nothing and take your licks however. I dont know your specific circumstances and obviously I respect your choice to deal with them however you choose. But I certainly can't take it as good, or even reasonable advice.

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Ok... you are now labeling anything that might have a chance of influencing someone to buy from any store, online or offline, as "shady", "predatory", and "ways to trick unhappy people into spending their money". Yes. I do see that as extreme and unreasonable. I think there are certainly worthy of making a fuss about in gaming. Things like Pay To Win, which I've already talked about. But a store that has a rotating selection? You're right, I don't feel there's any problem with it. I think it's ok as is. I'd be thrilled if everything was purchasable all season long, but I'm also happy with the way things are.

The real problem is your definitions and perspective are so skewed to the negative that you take my difference of opinion and act as if I'm not paying attention to the issues, or worse, that I'm ok with Eververse because I benefit from it and don't care about others.

Once you get that far, where every single thing the other side does is corrupt and where you paint those who disagree with you as unfeeling and uncaring... well, there's really no debate left to be had.

Good day, sir.

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Ok... you are now labeling anything that might have a chance of influencing someone to buy from any store, online or offline, as "shady", "predatory", and "ways to trick unhappy people into spending their money".

He did not say this, nor did he imply it.

We are talking about a subset of tactics and behaviors here.

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Ok... you are now labeling anything that might have a chance of influencing someone to buy from any store, online or offline, as "shady", "predatory", and "ways to trick unhappy people into spending their money".

Am I? When did I say that?

It's easy to discredit me when you prop me up as a cartoon anti-advertisement figure. But anyone who's been paying attention knows that's not what I've been saying.

You're putting words in my mouth to justify ignoring a real issue that does exist. You can say you don't care, or that you don't have the energy or the inclination to make a fuss about it, or even that you gain from it so you don't want things to change.

But you can't just pretend it doesn't exist and demand others do the same.

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... it's still going to be someone at Bungie's job to think about how to maximise profits from people within specific subgroups.

Is it???

I think this moves pretty close to the “[citation needed]” stage of the discussion. More realistically, it’s someone’s job to market to everyone. And they do that. And they never once go out of their way to target any of those groups. The idea that they do more that that, that they target vulnerable subgroups directly or intentionally, starts to border on paranoia...

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I was extremely happy that Apple added swipe to type in iOS 13. It only took them a decade.

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I was extremely happy that Apple added swipe to type in iOS 13. It only took them a decade.

Which I can't install because my phone is only 5 years old.

X-0

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The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

Notice how they only do this when money is on the line. For pinnacle weapons? Yeah, FOMO is bad we are changing it.

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The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

Notice how they only do this when money is on the line. For pinnacle weapons? Yeah, FOMO is bad we are changing it.

Yeah, that's not why they got rid of pinnacle weapons. The power of them was breaking the game.

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The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

Notice how they only do this when money is on the line. For pinnacle weapons? Yeah, FOMO is bad we are changing it.

Yeah, that's not why they got rid of pinnacle weapons. The power of them was breaking the game.

Oh my bad then. I remember reading Bungie saying FOMO was one of the reasons.

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The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

Notice how they only do this when money is on the line. For pinnacle weapons? Yeah, FOMO is bad we are changing it.

Yeah, that's not why they got rid of pinnacle weapons. The power of them was breaking the game.

Oh my bad then. I remember reading Bungie saying FOMO was one of the reasons.

I mean, it's possible that people got FOMO because they didn't have the weapons that were breaking the game. But the reason they stopped was because those unique perks were breaking any further development of weapons because they just couldn't keep balancing these new unique perks. So they just had to stop making new ones. At least that was my take away, I"m sure someone could bring up a quote and prove me wrong :D

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The only reason to make the store rotation work the way it apparently does is to make people scared they’re going to miss out on something they want because they don’t know when or if they’ll be able to buy it again.

Notice how they only do this when money is on the line. For pinnacle weapons? Yeah, FOMO is bad we are changing it.

Yeah, that's not why they got rid of pinnacle weapons. The power of them was breaking the game.

Oh my bad then. I remember reading Bungie saying FOMO was one of the reasons.

Source?

I remember Luke Smith saying in the recent 'state of the game' posts that they dumped 'em because they were too powerful; they became requirements for certain activities instead of offering an interesting alternative.

That doesn't translate to 'FOMO is bad we're changing it' to me. Maybe you've got a different quote?

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As someone who engages with Eververse basically not at all, I just don't get the level of outrage here. It seems really easy to just completely ignore it. Spend what you want to buy what you want, or don't. Maybe it will be cheaper later, that's your decision. Complaining about pricing schemes on intentionally useless digital cosmetics seems pretty silly to me.

Specific to the only-Eververse-armor-as-ornaments question, I thought that was pretty obvious why Bungie did that. They didn't want to sell Eververse armor with good stats (because that's close to pay-to-win), but they also didn't want to sell it with purposefully bad stats (because that kind of sucks), so they made them all ornaments. Obviously they see value in not doing that for all armor (or they would have done this a long time ago), but it makes total sense for cosmetics you buy.

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As someone who engages with Eververse basically not at all, I just don't get the level of outrage here. It seems really easy to just completely ignore it. Spend what you want to buy what you want, or don't. Maybe it will be cheaper later, that's your decision. Complaining about pricing schemes on intentionally useless digital cosmetics seems pretty silly to me.

Specific to the only-Eververse-armor-as-ornaments question, I thought that was pretty obvious why Bungie did that. They didn't want to sell Eververse armor with good stats (because that's close to pay-to-win), but they also didn't want to sell it with purposefully bad stats (because that kind of sucks), so they made them all ornaments. Obviously they see value in not doing that for all armor (or they would have done this a long time ago), but it makes total sense for cosmetics you buy.

The outrage is that people feel like they are being forced by FOMO to buy items with money because they don't know if the item will be sold for bright dust later. Oh, and that Bungie is doing it to milk as much money out of their player base as possible.

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The outrage is justified when it's sketchy practices. Some do care. You don't, I kind of don't, but have given up on getting everything since some are pay walled. But as pointed out they abuse the FOMO, aka basic human psychology to get extra payments. It's also just a terrible trend that NOT FREE games are using the same model as free games such as Fornite and Apex. In those it made sense, even if a bit too high in my opinion, because the game was free so you bought the things you wanted to give them some money for the game you enjoyed. But when I pay full price and you still try to milk it, that's a problem and not a trend we want to see continue.

As you said, it's their business and they can run it. But at some point, anti-consumer practices if not illegal, and some are, are downright disrespectful to the person who is paying and that's the problem. Whether you engage in it or not.

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As you said, it's their business and they can run it. But at some point, anti-consumer practices if not illegal, and some are, are downright disrespectful to the person who is paying and that's the problem. Whether you engage in it or not.

I will agree with this. But the solution is Cody's - if you find something disrespectful to you, you walk away. You don't really get to demand that they make you happy - that's not their job. Their job is to sell you a product. If they're disrespectful to enough people (who care), they'll make less money - and change their policies.

The unfortunate reality is that if you added up EVERY SINGLE COMPLAINING PERSON ON THE INTERNET, and compared them to the userbase as a whole, the complainers are a tiny minority. Which means they get a pretty tiny say.

Your ONLY real choice is to buy, or not buy. (Convincing others to not buy is a separate issue.)

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...this is the internet. Get out of here with your logic and rationale. I want everything given to me on my terms, ya hear!

[image]

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Your ONLY real choice is to buy, or not buy. (Convincing others to not buy is a separate issue.)

I think you also need to let them know WHY you aren't buying. I'm cynical and think if the sales of microtransactions simply drop, they'll just make them harder to avoid rather than remove them.

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Your ONLY real choice is to buy, or not buy. (Convincing others to not buy is a separate issue.)

I think you also need to let them know WHY you aren't buying. I'm cynical and think if the sales of microtransactions drop, they'll just make them harder to avoid rather than remove them.

Heh - here I go holding you up as an example of how to do it right, and you come back and tell me that you're not. ;)

(Or am I wrong? Have you found a way to let them know why you stopped playing?)

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Your ONLY real choice is to buy, or not buy. (Convincing others to not buy is a separate issue.)

I think you also need to let them know WHY you aren't buying. I'm cynical and think if the sales of microtransactions drop, they'll just make them harder to avoid rather than remove them.

Heh - here I go holding you up as an example of how to do it right, and you come back and tell me that you're not. ;)

(Or am I wrong? Have you found a way to let them know why you stopped playing?)

Nah, Bungie hasn't returned an email from me in quite some time :-p
But if they read DBO they'd know.

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Is that that lady who won't shut up about Fenchurch?

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Yes, it is up to each and every player to be responsible for their own choices. Nobody is being forced to buy anything from the Eververse. However, that does not mean that Bungie’s current handling of the Eververse store is not built around predatory features. By making it impossible for players to know which items will be available for “free” and which items will only be available with Silver, Bungie has created a system where players may feel the urge to buy something rather than wait and get it with Bright Dust later, “just in case” it never becomes available for bright dust. Similarly, the fact that datamines have revealed that certain items that were available for silver will become available for bright dust, but only after the refund window has passed, is tough to dismiss as coincidental.

I can easily refrain from engaging with such an economy. I don’t feel “ripped off”. But I can still recognize the sneaky tactics being used in the store, and it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

Remember the Halo 2 days where a new map pack would come out, and the only way to play the new maps was to buy them? And then 3-4 months later, those maps would become free for everyone? And that deal was communicated clearly before hand, so everyone knew the whole situation, nobody felt ripped off, and Bungie made money? What if D2 has a similar system with Eververse? New items were made available to purchase with each season, with the understanding that they would become available for bright dust at some set point in the future?

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Remember the Halo 2 days where a new map pack would come out, and the only way to play the new maps was to buy them? And then 3-4 months later, those maps would become free for everyone? And that deal was communicated clearly before hand, so everyone knew the whole situation, nobody felt ripped off, and Bungie made money? What if D2 has a similar system with Eververse? New items were made available to purchase with each season, with the understanding that they would become available for bright dust at some set point in the future?

I would play D2 if they did that.

They won't tho. :(

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Two things:

I think I have repeated it enough in this thread, but I want to make it clear that I personally don’t feel ripped off. I feel good about the money I spent. Nor do I personally feel personally exploited or driven to buy shit I don’t need or want.

Regarding your proposed model: it would fit perfectly with the system as designed now. Next season, everything would be added to the nostalgic Engram pool, and the bright dust rotation could be things from last season that are no longer available for silver. Hell, wait two seasons to keep those real money items prestigious for a few more months, and keep a few of those items as only silver only to be trotted out for repurchase every so often. I have strong suspicions this is what is going to happen anyway.

Drawing the line and not putting current season items out for bright dust (and actually announcing that in advance instead of when they get caught) would be a pretty good way to handle it.

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Yes, it is up to each and every player to be responsible for their own choices. Nobody is being forced to buy anything from the Eververse. However, that does not mean that Bungie’s current handling of the Eververse store is not built around predatory features. By making it impossible for players to know which items will be available for “free” and which items will only be available with Silver, Bungie has created a system where players may feel the urge to buy something rather than wait and get it with Bright Dust later, “just in case” it never becomes available for bright dust. Similarly, the fact that datamines have revealed that certain items that were available for silver will become available for bright dust, but only after the refund window has passed, is tough to dismiss as coincidental.

I can easily refrain from engaging with such an economy. I don’t feel “ripped off”. But I can still recognize the sneaky tactics being used in the store, and it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

Remember the Halo 2 days where a new map pack would come out, and the only way to play the new maps was to buy them? And then 3-4 months later, those maps would become free for everyone? And that deal was communicated clearly before hand, so everyone knew the whole situation, nobody felt ripped off, and Bungie made money? What if D2 has a similar system with Eververse? New items were made available to purchase with each season, with the understanding that they would become available for bright dust at some set point in the future?

I think maps are different in that maps are content that do affect gameplay, and there's a benefit to players buying them early and to all players when the maps get added to the general map pool.

I guess I see Eververse as yet another Destiny system I don't completely understand or care enough to, and maybe I'm alone in my assumption all along that the availability of anything there is unpredictable. I assume that anything I see there may or may not be available in the future, and I make my decisions accordingly. I didn't know or expect Bungie to tell me what items would be available or free later. I thought rotating stock with random availability was a given. I assumed nothing would be totally free later, except through RNG, and to me that knowledge was obvious so all this talk of Bungie being transparent seems a bit silly.

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Yes, it is up to each and every player to be responsible for their own choices. Nobody is being forced to buy anything from the Eververse. However, that does not mean that Bungie’s current handling of the Eververse store is not built around predatory features. By making it impossible for players to know which items will be available for “free” and which items will only be available with Silver, Bungie has created a system where players may feel the urge to buy something rather than wait and get it with Bright Dust later, “just in case” it never becomes available for bright dust. Similarly, the fact that datamines have revealed that certain items that were available for silver will become available for bright dust, but only after the refund window has passed, is tough to dismiss as coincidental.

I can easily refrain from engaging with such an economy. I don’t feel “ripped off”. But I can still recognize the sneaky tactics being used in the store, and it leaves a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

Remember the Halo 2 days where a new map pack would come out, and the only way to play the new maps was to buy them? And then 3-4 months later, those maps would become free for everyone? And that deal was communicated clearly before hand, so everyone knew the whole situation, nobody felt ripped off, and Bungie made money? What if D2 has a similar system with Eververse? New items were made available to purchase with each season, with the understanding that they would become available for bright dust at some set point in the future?

I think maps are different in that maps are content that do affect gameplay, and there's a benefit to players buying them early and to all players when the maps get added to the general map pool.

I guess I see Eververse as yet another Destiny system I don't completely understand or care enough to, and maybe I'm alone in my assumption all along that the availability of anything there is unpredictable. I assume that anything I see there may or may not be available in the future, and I make my decisions accordingly. I didn't know or expect Bungie to tell me what items would be available or free later. I thought rotating stock with random availability was a given. I assumed nothing would be totally free later, except through RNG, and to me that knowledge was obvious so all this talk of Bungie being transparent seems a bit silly.

I honestly don't think about it much, but I have had a few moments of confusion because of the store that have caused me to engage with it less. I really liked some of the weapon ornaments that were made available for Silver last season, so I bought one for my Austringer. I assumed that buying it with silver was the only way I would be able to get it. Then over the course of the season, I got several of the other ornaments from the same set (which were also available for silver) out of engrams.I certainly wasn't upset, but it did leave me thinking "well, why the heck did I bother buying that ornament?".
When clarification doesn't exist, it invites assumptions. And when people buy things based on assumptions that turn out to be untrue, feathers get ruffled. Yes, the buyer is responsible for making their assumptions, but to me its simply good customer service to be clear about what you're selling.

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You bought it because you valued it enough to ensure you had it. There was no assurance you would get it for free later (and I don’t recall any of the SoO ornaments dropping from Engrams just from the Bright Dust tracks) and instead of waiting you spent a premium to adopt early. If you did not value it enough to desire it for more than free you would not have bought it.

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You bought it because you valued it enough to ensure you had it. There was no assurance you would get it for free later (and I don’t recall any of the SoO ornaments dropping from Engrams just from the Bright Dust tracks) and instead of waiting you spent a premium to adopt early. If you did not value it enough to desire it for more than free you would not have bought it.

My point is that in this case, I had no idea that it was or would be available for free. I assumed it was a “silver only” item. I’m not upset about it. It was very possibly my own fault (I don’t remember if they ever said that these ornaments would be available for silver & through free engrams, but I could easily have just missed it).

My point is that I walked away feeling less inclined to spend more money in the future there, because I’m just not interested in following their somewhat convoluted system, and I’d rather not spend money on things that I’m likely to get for free a week or two later (given the amount of time I spend playing). Again, I’m not making accusations of malice. Just saying that for me, their store implementation is making me want to buy less, not more.

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You bought it because you valued it enough to ensure you had it. There was no assurance you would get it for free later (and I don’t recall any of the SoO ornaments dropping from Engrams just from the Bright Dust tracks) and instead of waiting you spent a premium to adopt early. If you did not value it enough to desire it for more than free you would not have bought it.

My point is that in this case, I had no idea that it was or would be available for free. I assumed it was a “silver only” item. I’m not upset about it. It was very possibly my own fault (I don’t remember if they ever said that these ornaments would be available for silver & through free engrams, but I could easily have just missed it).

My point is that I walked away feeling less inclined to spend more money in the future there, because I’m just not interested in following their somewhat convoluted system, and I’d rather not spend money on things that I’m likely to get for free a week or two later (given the amount of time I spend playing). Again, I’m not making accusations of malice. Just saying that for me, their store implementation is making me want to buy less, not more.

To me, this certainly doesn't mesh as well with the Bungie is evil theme. They're giving us a chance to get the same stuff for free! They're manipulating me to buy less from them! Bastards!

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Questionable is the mildest adjective I've seen in this thread, and most of the others imply evil intent. I found the rhetoric of the original reddit thread to be a bit insane, honestly. It's like the guy had lived in a cave and had never heard of marketing, and the whole concept was inherently unethical. I could not disagree more strongly.

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It's like the guy had lived in a cave and had never heard of marketing, and the whole concept was inherently unethical. I could not disagree more strongly.

I think most modern day marketing is damn near inherently unethical, and the fact that we're bombarded by it 24/7 doesn't help its case at all.

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...we haven't had a good, fun Mega Thread in a while. It's all warm like a Nostalgia Engram. Nice job. :)

(And no, I'm not just being sarcastic. I enjoys threads like this that have legs. That have different points of view. That talk about serious issues. That, hopefully, nobody comes away too offended by.)

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Can one still earn Bright Dust? Maybe I missed them in the new storefront, but I can’t find the bounties that she used to carry.

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Can one still earn Bright Dust? Maybe I missed them in the new storefront, but I can’t find the bounties that she used to carry.

Bright Dust can be earned from certain Bounties from other Vendors, such as the Vanguard.

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Specifically the Ritual Vendors (Vanguard, Crucible, Gambit) and their weeklies pay out 200 each (for 1200 per character) and they have repeatable bounties that are a good glimmer sink (3k glimmer each) and pay out 10 BD and Experience in line with regular bounties. Some of the bounties are unique from the regular dailies and some are the same or near-same (The Drifter will sell a daily for banking 25 motes and a repeatable for banking 25 motes and can progress concurrently)

So, if you run the ritual weeklies on all characters and nothing else you will net 3600 BD/wk. which is about enough for 1.5 exotic items in EV. Depending on type of item.

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