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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS (Off-Topic)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 09:09 (645 days ago)

This thread is for Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS. If for some reason you don't want to be Spoiled on the story... or whatever it turns out to be... elements for Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker, you should not be here. This is because this thread is for Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS as is indicated in the title of this thread. This thread is called SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS, because of the Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS contained here in.

You have been sufficiently warned.

For everyone else, speak freely, and make sure some Spoiler indication is in your title should you change it.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 09:23 (645 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I’m seeing it this evening, but like most things, I’ve read just about every spoiler already. Unfortunately this means I’m going in with fairly low expectations. If anything, I’m really going because it will likely be the last of these cultural events for a while. Marvel will take a bit to ramp up again after Endgame, and there won’t be any Star Wars for at least a couple of year, right? Disney and Pixar movies can be big, but even Frozen II isn’t as big of an event despite making a bunch of money.

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?

Anyway, thanks for starting the topic. Creating a designated spoiler zone helps everyone talk more freely. I’ll certainly be back tonight or tomorrow to share my thoughts! :)

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 11:17 (645 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Like Ragashingo, I’ve read all the spoilers already. It sounds like a real train wreck. I hope it’s fun, that’ll be good enough for me. People I trust say that’s the case, so I’m hopeful.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, December 19, 2019, 13:29 (645 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I agree the plot decisions are questionable as hell, but, apart from very specific parts, I quite enjoyed the deliveries.

Completely threw ep8 under a bus, sure, but that was telegraphed in the lead-up.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Harmanimus @, Saturday, December 21, 2019, 22:35 (642 days ago) @ ZackDark

Completely threw ep8 under a bus

After having watched it, I literally cannot figure out where this take came from.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Thursday, January 02, 2020, 02:21 (631 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Completely threw ep8 under a bus

After having watched it, I literally cannot figure out where this take came from.

  • Sidelined rose
  • Poe rolls back to being a cocky pilot and demonstrates no leadership qualities
  • Luke literally catches a ligthsaber and makes a glib comment about it
  • Makes Rey a Palpatine...
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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, January 02, 2020, 13:17 (631 days ago) @ kidtsunami

Sidelining Characters isn’t new to Ep9.
Poe continues to show the progress of valuing life rather than sacrifice.
Luke catching the saber is entirely in line with the purpose of his arc and not allowing Rey to fail in the same way.
Rey’s parentage was always going to be dynastic, Ep8 was about her not being bound to the history of her parentage.

In context, none of those are black bagging Ep8.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, January 02, 2020, 19:28 (630 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Luke catching the saber is fine on it's own, but it is so clearly also winking at the audience and saying "Fuck that scene in The Last Jedi."

All they had to do was not give him that stupid line, and it would have been fine, would have actually fit with the themes of The Last Jedi, but JJ spent a lot of this movie trying to "fix" shit that didn't need to be fixed.

I think he mostly did a pretty good job following The Last Jedi and wrapping up the trilogy, but he also definitely got his jabs in, often in the dumbest way possible. It's a shame, because there's actually a really great movie hidden in there.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, January 02, 2020, 21:17 (630 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Luke is 2:1 on chucking lightsabers over respecting them. I suppose you can read it as an attack on TLJ if you want, but it reads easier as some self deprecating humor from Luke.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 11:29 (645 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?

Cats, duh.

You've still got John Wick 4 / Matrix 4, and Dune is likely to be very anticipated.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by SonofMacPhisto @, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 13:55 (645 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?


Cats, duh.

You've still got John Wick 4 / Matrix 4, and Dune is likely to be very anticipated.

Dune is a big maybe for me. John Wick/Matrix 4? Yuck.

Heck, next gen Marvel isn't really catching my eye. It's OK for things to end, right?

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by narcogen ⌂ @, Andover, Massachusetts, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 17:20 (644 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?


Dune.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 17:22 (644 days ago) @ narcogen

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?


Dune.

I'm excited (cautiously) for Dune. There's not a chance in hell that it's anywhere approaching as big as Star Wars or Marvel.

Although who the hell knows, most probably would have said the same thing about Game of Thrones.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 17:42 (644 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?


Dune.


I'm excited (cautiously) for Dune. There's not a chance in hell that it's anywhere approaching as big as Star Wars or Marvel.

Although who the hell knows, most probably would have said the same thing about Game of Thrones.

My prediction is the film is okay to good, but it flops financially and part II never gets made.

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What Comes After Star Wars?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 20:32 (644 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I’m seeing it this evening, but like most things, I’ve read just about every spoiler already. Unfortunately this means I’m going in with fairly low expectations. If anything, I’m really going because it will likely be the last of these cultural events for a while. Marvel will take a bit to ramp up again after Endgame, and there won’t be any Star Wars for at least a couple of year, right? Disney and Pixar movies can be big, but even Frozen II isn’t as big of an event despite making a bunch of money.

I wonder what’s next? The Avatar squeals? That’s all I can really think of. Does anyone know of anything else BIG that will generate the buzz that Star Wars or the Avengers did over the part several years?

Anyway, thanks for starting the topic. Creating a designated spoiler zone helps everyone talk more freely. I’ll certainly be back tonight or tomorrow to share my thoughts! :)

Alright, so there is a part of me that is saying to me that I'm blabbering on into a tangent. Despite that, I'm hoping my read of this is at least half right somehow in some way. So, yeah, here I go.

I don't know your purpose in asking such a question, but for whatever it may be I think this is the wrong question; "What Comes After Star Wars?", as it's almost like you don't want to be surprised. Where do you want my eyeballs now boss? If you're looking for your next hit, then well, that's just a bit more Brave New World then I'd honestly like. I don't know why that extreme is where my brain went but... well there it is. I mean, I get it, it's fun to geek out and do this communal shared experience that sports fans get to have seemingly ad infinitum. These worlds that have been built in mind for spectacle or metaphor, be they Beowulf to Starwars, Star Trek to Aesop's Fables, Avengers to ... shoot... I'm going to say the Bible. What could POSSIBLY go wrong.

These stories, the big extravagant stories aren't going anywhere and we are certainly going to find away to retell them again. Honestly, it might be nice to just catch ones breath from all of this "build up" in entertainment that has been made in this last decade. We already have so much, it would be sad to just be one and done with what we already have. To me the question to ask is through these stories; What have I learned? A reflection of things, be it of the story on one side, or the making of the craft which has presented to us one the other. I reflection in the crafting in whatever medium speaking to us. It's not What Comes After Star Wars, it's what has Starwars//Marvel//Lord Of The Rings//...so on so on... brought to ones self?

I think that a far more interesting question.

... it occurs to me ... lets see if I can find that quote... ah there it is.

“A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away… to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph. Adventure. Heh. Excitement. Heh. A Jedi craves not these things.” – Yoda

That.

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*SP* Just saw it. While not perfect (duh) I had fun.*SP*

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 19:25 (644 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Quick Vers.

I did not read anything online. I went in Clean, sans what little knowledge could be gained from the non-spoiler reviews.

I LOVED the START.

I Enjoyed the middle.

And most of my "grievances" came at the very end.

This movies cadence is quick. GO Go GO. I do not fault it for this, as all their time they had was burned.

Nor do I fault them with what they did with Princess Leia Organa. Carrie Fisher is dead, may she be resting well. So with this in mind, I think with what they used, what they had, was well enough mended together.

That said, this is a spoiler thing, so I'm going to straight say it: The emperor can flat out EMP nuke with his fingertips, but a simple lightsaber can stop it? Whaaa? As I said, most of my "grievances" came at the very end.

Yet with all of it said an done, this "Sequel" has done something that the other two just did not do... I actually had fun. We finally got a Starwars Film from Disney. (I haven't seen the other non "Skywalker" flims.)

More later. But Hey... here, I'll give you a hint.

I wish... I wish we had started where we ended. Oh well. I guess that's just not how things work, yes? ;)

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*SP* Just saw it. While not perfect (duh) I had fun.*SP*

by squidnh3, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 20:37 (644 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I just got back from seeing it. It was silly, sometimes very silly, but it was sincere and that's probably what will count for me in the end.

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Long Live The Last Jedi

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Thursday, December 19, 2019, 21:55 (644 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Look, TLJ has some serious missteps. It went on diversions that muddled the story and accomplished less than nothing. It has some terrible pacing with the slow motion space chase. But, it has a point and a purpose that it was driving for. It continued and strengthened and did an excellent job portraying the connection and tension between Kylo and Rey. It made me like grumpy Luke by having Yoda teach him a final lesson.

Rise of Skywalker did so many things wrong that I'm not even going to try and detail them all tonight. I gotta get to sleep sometime. But, I think its worst sins were:

1. It felt almost completely disconnected from TFA and TLJ. It either undid or ignored almost everything from the previous film.
2. It fell back on a villain from the past instead of having a villain of its own. (Though, this is a huge problem with the entire trilogy...)
3. I felt the final act was boring as hell. The fleet battle was anemic and the civilian fleet arriving was nonsensical given the heavy maneuvering military vessels had to do to reach the destination.
4. I felt like Kylo Ren should have been the final villain. I loved the moment where Rey literally and figuratively shut the door on him at the end of The Last Jedi. Only to have him redeemed here. I did not like the redemption at all. Felt it was completely unearned.
5. I was extremely disappointed in that final scene. Ok, fine, Rey returned to the Skywalker home. That has some meaning, I guess.. But... what about her? Does she have any plans or hopes or goals? What about the Jedi? Is she going to rebuild the order? Like it was? Like a more balanced order as Luke hinted at in TLJ? Just having her stand there staring into the sunset was such an empty beat and a huge disservice to her character.

This is the most negative I've bene about a movie since I saw the live action Ghost in the Shell. It felt almost worthless to me. I think it was a very disappointing end to the trilogy.

Did I like anything? Sure. Two things:

1. I thought showing that an unplanned hyperspace jump with the light speed skipping of the Falcon was fun.
2. I enjoyed the force teleportation that kept happening between Rey and Kylo. The passing of the lightsaber was clever... shame the enemies were nameless nobodies that weren't even a threat.

Anyway, much more from me later this weekend. I'd like to really dig down into things. Consider this just a very quick overview of my thoughts and reasonings... Ultimately, though, I wish Star Wars had maintained the focus on character and hard choice conflict that we got a glimpse of in The Last Jedi...

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Long Live The Last Jedi

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, December 20, 2019, 08:44 (644 days ago) @ Ragashingo

5. I was extremely disappointed in that final scene. Ok, fine, Rey returned to the Skywalker home.

How does she even know about that and more importantly why does she care?

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Long Live The Last Jedi

by breitzen @, Kansas, Friday, December 20, 2019, 11:41 (644 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

5. I was extremely disappointed in that final scene. Ok, fine, Rey returned to the Skywalker home.


How does she even know about that and more importantly why does she care?

She’s got force ghosts on speed-dial. lol. As for why, she buried Luke and Leia’s lightsabers. And it ended the saga where it began.
Though, it didn’t really work for me.

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Long Live The Last Jedi

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, December 20, 2019, 11:46 (644 days ago) @ breitzen

5. I was extremely disappointed in that final scene. Ok, fine, Rey returned to the Skywalker home.


How does she even know about that and more importantly why does she care?


She’s got force ghosts on speed-dial. lol. As for why, she buried Luke and Leia’s lightsabers. And it ended the saga where it began.
Though, it didn’t really work for me.

But that doesn't make sense if she doesn't realistically know where they're from!

Ugh.

EDIT: And was Leia ever even there?! Does she even know what blue milk is?! Rey should've tossed Leia's lightsaber into the asteroid belt formerly known as Alderaan!

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#TooSoon

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Friday, December 20, 2019, 14:54 (644 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

EDIT: And was Leia ever even there?! Does she even know what blue milk is?! Rey should've tossed Leia's lightsaber into the asteroid belt formerly known as Alderaan!

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(Review) SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Waste of Time SPOILERS

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, December 20, 2019, 16:00 (643 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Its the 18th of December, 2019. The reviews are out. 5X% when tallied among the professional critics of movies and cinema.

Disney finally killed it, quotes our very own. I reading & watching all shades of these reviews, both good and bad, and knowing something so hyperbole may very well be true. A smattering of these reviews are absolutely BRUTAL, often mentioning recurring themes in a plot-stuffed “goodbye” so quick in its tempo, that it's laborious to get through.

I feel nothing, and in fact I expected as much. I knew this was going to happen, and in some capacity you probably did too. There may be differences, in fact its safe to say there are, on that why, but... it doesn't matter anymore. Be you in agreement or not.

All of this isn't even a little surprising. Proposing & Producing a trilogy without a trilogy written, then giving it to three different writers and allowing them to do whatever they wanted was at default not going to end well. At least that’s what I recollect being “the plan” from published sources. For the sake of being through and double checking, I did try to look and find that almost decade old morsel, but I could not seem to find it. I did find that George always had a plan of sorts, if abit rough around the edges. I also found that these morsels were eventually incorporated in a scattered fashion throughout the released Disney Star Wars films to date. I also found this source here on a starwars focused forum about The Development of the Sequel Trilogy which may bare more fruit if you can bare the at least 100 pages of posts. One post quoted here I think made a good summarizeable point.

They were under a time crunch that Marvel didn't have. Disney announced a release date at the same time they released that they were buying LFL.

Shareholder happiness > Proper development time

But I could not seem to find the original published official response to “Here is how we plan to make the next three movies in the SKYWALKER Saga” in the time I gave myself to do it. Kinda meta, actually. I did learn thought that apparently part of the deal from Lucas giving Starwars to Disney was requiring Kathleen Kennedy to be at the helm of it. So I guess all that means we can blame Lucas for the Sequels too. :P

[image]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So... Now then... where was I? Right! (Everything is on Fire. This is fine.)

[image]

With these reviews in the pocket, I walked into the theater clean. Not just of any ambitions, but of any so called leaks either. After all, that's why I had yet again fought so hard to see this as early as possible, as soon as I could. I was finishing what I started, but in a state I could have perhaps never expected. I’m not just CLEAN my friends, I don’t care. The fact that this was a so called end to a trilogy was, and frankly is, totally utterly irrelevant. There is no trilogy. This is a Standalone Star Wars Film in a bubble. Ray? Flinn? …uh… whatever the other names are. Whatever. Doesn’t matter.

It’s a-bunch-of-freek’n-misfits-trying-to-scrounge-up-something-of-a-resistance-. . . bad-men-with-big-ships-THE-MOVIE, I guess. Cool.

Why? You know why, both long term and immediate. It’s the Shakespearean 800 Pound Gorilla Shit fight. The mono-optic toddler crying in the airplane that some how got its piss covered hands on the cockpit controls. Such a moment of circumstance is so important. If its temper tantrum, its RIDICULOUSLY smug sense of fuck you I do what I want, its utter blindness of actions having consequences was made during lift off or landing, then at least the damage could have been mitigated. Shoot! It might have even worked out thanks to the magic of 40 years of thematic resonance built into the SKYWALKER auto plot for the SKYWALKER Saga. Yet this toddler made this play while in the air, and now not only are we so off course in any capacity to an over arching (a three movie built) plot, character development or relationships, of even having a proper solid villain – WITH A PLAN – WITH A PLAN, that as we crashed and burned in this sea of errors spewing from our exhaust port, surviving it at all was the greatest success one could even possibly hope for. Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker just didn’t have enough time to unfuck what they had to follow. It’s just all irrelevant.

HA! I get the joke now. 7 8 9. Man, can we just call this a Cannibal Trilogy and call it a day? Shit. Maybe… maybe this is why planning is important? Nahh. No one could have known! It’s not like a billion blillon dollar company could actually learn from history right?! Would actually CARE about the quality they keep? The Lord of the Rings trilogy (2001 – 2003) is just as good as The Hobbit *ahem* Trilogy (2012 – 2014) right!?

As long as it makes actual Dump Trucks made out of actual money, with money in them.

So with no beginning, no end, and my seat simply being a window for me to just peak my head through the portal of another world... What did this ol’ Starwars Fan see?

This movie is the closest I expect to see the “Legends” Expanded Universe on the big screen any time soon. There were some SOLID actual STAR WARS motifs in this film, and I’m not talking about that fan-bait member-berry nonsense. I wonder if I can list this out from memory with only one initial viewing under my belt. I’m going to do.

  • A Sith fighting for an item of power, which I thought a Holocron at the time, leading to dark corners of the galaxy, the Unknown reaches of Space, to a Sith World, drenched in the Dark Side of the force. This is how the sequels should have started, but alas, this is the necessary end of a limping dog.
  • An honest to goodness resistance moment, which to me felt very 1940 Paris to me, in a way. No corner is safe, and any safety is made through friends or old-foes who each only want to survive.
  • Old relics etched with forbidden inscriptions, leading to whatever may lead. And hey, everything is more fun when old dark languages are involved right?

(And that is just what I recollect at the moment.)

It’s an old Galaxy. A long time ago. Far far away. It’s like Europe or Britannia or 'MURICA building over some Indian Burial Ground something. The present bumping into the past, all mixed together into some kind of galactic stew.

And EVERYONE, big, small, main, secondary, tertiary... has a name and a history. THIS is STARWARS.

Then with all this you place on top the quintessential cherry above it all... personal conflict. Not just personal conflict, but personal conflict made more obvious, more potent, more real to the viewer thanks to The Force. A light that only story can see, can speak of. Speak words into things that are hard to say but we ALL know. With the choice made with Rey, the personal conflict within, what can I do but lament of what this could have been… I wish could have been… explored more. I say again, these elements within Star Wars IX: Rise of Skywalker is how the sequels should have started. I wish I wish I wish that instead of jacking our chain with an abundance of mystery boxes unsolved, we could have started off running.

Alas these choices made to what could have been.

---------

I've had a theory (and yeah I know, ignore the joke of hope). My theory, coming into this…

(which is basically saying this is how I would have written it in since it could have been, I suppose, anything)

...was that Rey was an old Palpatine experiment. A clone made to be powerful in the force (high Midi-chlorian count). Dropped off on different worlds and forced to endure a Darwinian existence that Sith just go bananas for, before being eventually collected for… something? Not only would it explain everything in accordance to the rules built within the first six of the SKYWALKER saga, but it would jive with this as well.

Her parents then could be nobody, and anybody. She would have to rely on her self and be her own parent. It all works. That was my theory, for whatever good it could have done.

So I must then say I did not even consider the possibility for what they wrote it to be, to which I must enact Space Godwin's law. Imagine your last name was Hitler (or Schicklegruber or Hiedler). Holy shit. That’s one ‘ell of a conflict. It’s the sins of our fathers angle, which is always Juicy. So when your grandfather happens to be a undead evil space wizard, WELL! I wish we had more time. THAT’S INTERESTING! I would have LOVED to seen that explored more! That is some SPECTACULAR conflict. Not just in Who am I? But in finding out and going – Oh shit, now I know. I don’t like this. What does this mean!?? Am I evil? Do I have a choice? Its the sins of our blood and it’s BLOODY FANTASTIC!

What frek’n waste.

There just was no more time left.

There just was no more time left.

There just was no more time left.

And you know why.

Of time, let us move on to speak of pace. This is a Movie in a hurry. And yes in many ways it’s bad – but you already knew that. The sliver lining though is that this movie abhors nonsense (which may have a touch of irony thanks to all the plot holes). It’s straight to the point, as it expositions its self of what it does not have time to show. I found the movie to be very matter of fact with what it had to work with, and this approach helped blunt some of the shortcomings with an appearance of self awareness. I mean, at least Chewie finally got a medal by not dieing and stuff... I guess.

It's 50/50. Your mood in the moment may effect enjoyment more then others. Just hold on tight, and try not to hit your head.

Oh and get this, it’s actually funny every now and again. It actually got the occasional chuckle out of me, which is surprising since timing trends to be rather important for that humor thing. That was a nice plus. Oh! And CP3-0 was relevant to the plot. That was nice. I liked that.

And I uh… I had fun. I tell ya I had no expectation of that. Left the theater with an overall smile, had a burger and a shake. It was good ev’in.

In conclusion, with what they had to work with, they did a good enough job. The end. Whatever.

But wait... what about what they didn't get right. What didn't you like? TO which I rebut... Why? It's done. It doesn't matter. Palpy got some and had a kid and a kid? Sure. He can flat out EMP nuke with his fingertips, but a simple lightsaber can stop it? Whaaa? SUCK the frek'n life force out of folks and... whatever. SHRUG. Whatever. The Knights of Ren are... there? Eh. Whatever. ... It doesn't matter. No more than The Last Airbender does for the Avatar: The Last Airbender.

I had fun. I did not leave the theater indifferent, or befuddled. With what I've received what more can I ask for. More time? Ha! I made me laugh.

For these sequels, well, it was over before it even begin.

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The absolute dumbest Star Wars movie. Also pretty fun.

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, December 21, 2019, 21:49 (642 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I just finished watching. It was a fun watch! It was a wild ride from start to finish. I think it's a decent Star Wars movie. It was also the absolute dumbest Star Wars movie by a long shot.

Palpatine is still a terrifying bad guy, and he's great. It's also completely stupid that he's back at all.

It feels almost downright spiteful in it's treatment of The Last Jedi, and it completely panders to the stupidest complaints about both it and The Force Awakens. You don't think Rey trained enough to be as good as she is? Here's an extended training sequence at the start of the movie! Are you mad about Luke in The Last Jedi? He admits he was wrong and stupid! You hate that Luke Force-projected instead of raising his X-Wing out of the ocean and fighting for real? Guess what Rey flies away in! Are you still pissed that Chewie didn't get that medal at the end of Return of the Jedi? Well he's got one now! Mad about the lightspeed attack Holdo did? Well now it's named the Holdo Maneuver, and, guess what, it's one-in-a-million and we can't do it anymore (except oddly, at the very end where we see a shot of a Star Destroyer above a planet and it looks like it was split in half by the exact same thing).

Kylo's redemption didn't work for me. They've spent the whole of this trilogy showing that he's still split, that killing Han is tearing him apart, and it's still just not a convincing turn. I think the chemistry between Rey and Kylo is one of the best things about the new trilogy, and the the Force connection stuff and the teleportation/projection was really cool. Just wish they would have done something more interesting there.

I'm totally here for the continued adventures of Finn, Poe, and Chewie in the Falcon. Give me that series.

A lot of the action didn't work for me. The aerial battle at the end was fine, but the "land" assault on the Star Destroyer felt really lacking. The chase on the sand planet in the middle of the movie felt like it had no stakes whatsoever.

Rey and Kylo Force fighting over the transport ship was cool, though. I know it's sort of a double-edged knife here because it can get silly, but I really enjoyed just how powerful they made the Force feel in this movie. They do some pretty wild stuff.

The Knights of Ren are silly and pointless. They do nothing for the entire movie except stand around a look menacing (ostensibly, anyway--they actually looked like bad cosplayers). Every scene they were in would have been better if they were just Death Troopers.

What the hell did Finn want to tell Rey? They kept bringing it up and then never actually answered it. Was he going to tell her that he's Force-sensitive?

How the hell does Rey still have Anakin's lightsaber? Didn't Rey and Kylo destroy it? It's a shame, too, given that constructing a lightsaber is an important part of Jedi training, and they made such a big deal of her training. The lightsaber she actually makes and has at the very end of the movie is so damn cool, too!

How the hell is Luke's X-wing still a complete X-wing? The door of Luke's hut was literally one of the S-foils. I don't actually care about that, but it's just something I noticed.

Keri Russell's character looked dumb as hell. Straight up looked like a fucking Power Ranger.

I'm really disappointed at the lack of the Ghost in the final battle. After seeing it in the first trailer, I was hoping it'd get a cool scene, and it doesn't do anything. I wasn't holding out a whole lot of hope of actually seeing Hera on screen, but I was expecting to see the Ghost do something, otherwise why show it in the trailer at all.

Hearing Ahsoka was cool! I thought I heard Kanan in there, too, but I couldn't tell.

Overall, it's a fun movie that feels like a completely contrived response to the stupidest complaints about the previous two films. It's a disappointing follow-up to The Last Jedi. The Last Jedi left the universe in a place where they story could have gone literally anywhere, and they went right back to well-tread ground, and had to hand wave a bunch of bullshit to get there.

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It was a movie.

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Sunday, December 22, 2019, 05:20 (642 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I enjoyed it but I left the theater without any feeling. Wasn't excited, wasn't disappointed, I just....was. Maybe it met my expectations perfectly?

My biggest takeaway from the entire 9 episode saga is that the most important characters of the franchise are actually Chewy and the Millennium Falcon. They always go on the toughest missions then get back just in time to bail everyone else out.

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It was a movie.

by Harmanimus @, Sunday, December 22, 2019, 22:23 (641 days ago) @ ManKitten

Add in 3PO and R2 and that sounds about right for story importance.

Someone else has said it better than I ever could...

by EffortlessFury @, Wednesday, December 25, 2019, 19:57 (638 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

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Gave up after I saw him shilling some shitty mobile game

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, December 25, 2019, 22:22 (638 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

- No text -

Fair, but I'd urge you to give it a go anyway.

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 00:05 (638 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 10:05 (638 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 10:09

I saw this yesterday. There's so much to unpack and talk about here I don't really actually know where to start with this one, so if this jumps from place to place and isn't super structured then I'm sorry.

What's this movie about? A simple question that should have a simple answer. But I don't think it has a simple, much less a good answer in this movie. The first thing (other than the frantic almost not existent pacing) that I noticed was the absolute lack of any sort of setups and motivations behind every character. Why not go one by one?

In the last film Poe was humbled. His cocksure attitude was not an asset but a liability, and got him and his friends into deeper trouble as the film went on. By the end that ego and bravado gave way to trust. Trust in his commanders. Trust in his friends. Trust in what's bigger than himself. He learned about the true nature of leadership. And yet, from the very start of TROS he reverts to the cocky arrogant prick he once was. After he landed my first thought was "why is everyone being a dick to each other?". Poe suddenly has beef with Rey for some reason. He yells at her for damaging BB8. He tells her she should be out fighting instead of training. But it's bullshit because: 1. It doesn't really come from anywhere, and 2. As a character conflict it is literally dropped and doesn't effect anything in the film.

It would be one thing if we clearly see him in a situation where Rey refuses to come with, and there be a dramatic loss he suffers where he is sure Rey could have helped. We need scenes to see the resentment fostering at him having to do all the heavy lifting when she can force lift rocks. We need that gulf to widen during the course of the film, so Rey's friends plausibly push her away creating an isolation Kylo could exploit. But… nothing. It doesn't matter and is forgotten about. Much like everything in this movie.

Poe merely ferries characters from Mcguffan to Mcguffan, before finally being promoted to General when Leia dies. Does he take this opportunity to put into effect what he's learned about leadership? To inspire? To make the hard choices? No of course not. He just… gives up. Literally. No rousing speech, no appeal to hope. Just… hey guys sorry but we are fucked. Lando shows up and oh look at that the tide has turned. Not only does this not make any sense for Poe's character, but it's outrageous. At the end of Last Jedi, nobody came when they sent out the distress call. So what happened? What did Lando say to everyone to convince them to come this time?! Just hand waved when it could have been a rousing emotional moment. Forget Lando. Poe should have been the one to go out and rally everyone together, having grown into a true leader and uniting everyone. And we should have seen that. But nope. Out of nowhere.

What about Finn? He goes from caring about nothing but himself and Rey to becoming a part of the rebellion. "I'm rebel scum!" he shouted triumphantly in defiance to Phasma, and by the end ready to give his life to save everyone else instead of run. So where does that go here? Oh wait, he just kind of is in this movie always shouting "Rey!" and not doing anything. No hard choices to make for the cause. And when did he and Poe start going at it? It makes no fucking sense. They are on each other for no real reason that I could tell. What did Finn have to tell Rey? Why constantly bring it up when there's nothing to do with it? Why pair Finn with a character you introduce late who is 'just like him'? Why not pair him with Rose? As someone else rightfully pointed out, you learn things from people who are not like you. There's no drama and catharsis in just being like "Oh hey, you were taken as a kid too? Wow cool. Let's go fight together!".

Hux. Why is he helping them? "I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo to lose". Ug. We need to see this discontent grow. Like every other character in this film we're simply told what they feel but we are never shown why. I kind of get it, as Kylo is being a petulant brat at the end of TLJ, but they simply needed to butt heads more for this to make and sense or track. He was perfectly fine with blowing up planets and crushing the rebellion before. We need to see him change his mind. Did you know a scene was cut out where Hux has at it with Kylo in the opening? He yells at him for chasing ghosts. Not much but it'd have been something.

What does Rey want? Why is she training to be a Jedi? She wants to find her place in the world? Discover who she is? Then why does she get that easy answer? You're a Palpatine. You and Kylo have a dyad. Here's where you are meant to be. It's much more interesting for her to forge her own identify. Realize that family isn't just blood but a bond of friendship blah blah oh well I guess the force doesn't belong to everyone and it's just about lineage and dynasty.

We never get any of the necessary emotional stuff with the characters, and instead are forced along at a manic pace from scene to scene, battle to battle, relevant motivations only shouted in passing as it's all a blur. Take away all the fetch quests and spend that screen time on the character work. It won't be boring if you create the emotional conflicts to drive the rest of the story. Create a character for a momentary conflict, meet her for 5 minutes, then have her conveniently give you the thing you need to keep the story going. No history or actual change, but the illusion of such. Why does C3P0s sacrifice ring hollow? I want to look at my friends one last time he says. Really? Your friends? What exactly have you all done together to make you want to call them your friends?!

None of it worked. The score from the original is played at an emotional moment, and you feel feelings by proxy. The action scenes were the epitome of chaos cinema. Did they forget to watch this on a big screen? The camera shaking, the movement, it's all incomprehensible. Every moment rendered an assault of sound and image such that I was pummeled into excitement. The final battle had no climatic buildup. Remember the Death Star in a new hope? How one by one the pilots we got to know are slowly picked off, as the chances for success get slimmer and slimmer until all seems lost. Did you ever feel anything even close to that? Never since transformers has so much action been so phenomenally uninteresting.

It's all texture. All nostalgia. It's the smooth talking con man who gets you to believe only for you to be left holding nothing. It's all sad and cynical. What is it about?

Ug.

SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 10:22 (638 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Poe merely ferries characters from Mcguffan to Mcguffan, before finally being promoted to General when Leia dies. Does he take this opportunity to put into effect what he's learned about leadership? To inspire? To make the hard choices? No of course not. He just… gives up. Literally. No rousing speech, no appeal to hope. Just… hey guys sorry but we are fucked. Lando shows up and oh look at that the tide has turned. Not only does this not make any sense for Poe's character, but it's outrageous. At the end of Last Jedi, nobody came when they sent out the distress call. So what happened? What did Lando say to everyone to convince them to come this time?! Just hand waved when it could have been a rousing emotional moment. Forget Lando. Poe should have been the one to go out and rally everyone together, having grown into a true leader and uniting everyone. And we should have seen that. But nope. Out of nowhere.

My only thought on this is that the Emperor broadcast to the entire galaxy. I think everyone knew it was now or never, and as there was already a fight underway (essentially, the final fight), it was as good a time as any. *shrug*

Hux. Why is he helping them? "I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo to lose". Ug. We need to see this discontent grow. Like every other character in this film we're simply told what they feel but we are never shown why. I kind of get it, as Kylo is being a petulant brat at the end of TLJ, but they simply needed to butt heads more for this to make and sense or track. He was perfectly fine with blowing up planets and crushing the rebellion before. We need to see him change his mind. Did you know a scene was cut out where Hux has at it with Kylo in the opening? He yells at him for chasing ghosts. Not much but it'd have been something.

This one was telegraphed just fine over the last two movies. He almost killed Kylo while he was out cold near the end of TLJ and was subsequently tossed around by Kylo for the rest of the movie. The resentment is clear. XD

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 12:41 (638 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

This one was telegraphed just fine over the last two movies. He almost killed Kylo while he was out cold near the end of TLJ and was subsequently tossed around by Kylo for the rest of the movie. The resentment is clear. XD

But there is no sense that his hatred of Kylo justifies betraying the First Order. Why he wants Kylo to fail is clear. Why he'd destroy the First Order to do that is not. If anything he'd want Kylo's job.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, December 26, 2019, 13:20 (638 days ago) @ Cody Miller

What's this movie about? A simple question that should have a simple answer.

That's actually pretty simple and you gave a good sum-up of it: this movie is about "fixing" Ep8.

While I did enjoy immensely the effects, battles, moment-to-moment emotions, this movie felt quite like a checklist of addressing Ep8's fallout complaints. Fortunately, as soon as they checked off "What's Snoke about" I realized it'd be just that and managed to enjoy the movie as a silly Star Wars adventure romp.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 21:36 (637 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by INSANEdrive, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 21:52

I saw this yesterday. There's so much to unpack and talk about here I don't really actually know where to start with this one, so if this jumps from place to place and isn't super structured then I'm sorry.

What's this movie about? A simple question that should have a simple answer. But I don't think it has a simple, much less a good answer in this movie. The first thing (other than the frantic almost not existent pacing) that I noticed was the absolute lack of any sort of setups and motivations behind every character.

There are three answers to this, two short, and one waaaay too long, but since I have no where to show; here I go, here I go, here I go.

The message of the movie is something to the effect of, "you are not alone".
The story its self though? I am perplexed you ask this. Lets objectively reflect.

Ep 1 - 3. What's that about? It's about, in a simple term... downfall. Ep 1 shows us what we before hand have never seen before with the Jedi Order at their prime and the start of end thanks to a fearful little boy. Ep 4 - 6. What's that about? It's about, in a very simple term... redemption. Ep 4 shows us an Empire in power, doing what it can to cement it's grip through fear. Oh, and a call to adventure.

[image]

Now... I'm about to reiterate myself a bit here, but only because no one has yet called me out over here. Does what I have to say over here make sense? I made that in bold, 'cus ya'll may already know what I'm about to point out.

So then we get to Ep 7, which is supposed to be part 1 of 3 in another trilogy within the saga of films, hence Ep 7. Correct me if I'm wrong in my recollection, but most the story is, here are these new (and old) characters, doing events already in progress that you've seen before. Go. That's what I recall. What overall story is Ep 7 setting up overall? To what I recall... Mystery. Not so much a narrative (eh kind-a-sort-a), but a mystery. Nothing but mysteries. Why? Well, I'm shooting from the hip here but it's probably safe to say - because it's easy. We'll fix that stuff in post, sort of deal. After all we have two movies to go, what could go wrong? Just get the fandom so blue balled, so pent up, when the pay dirt comes they'll straight up Jackson Pollock. Or something... geeze.

Then we get to Ep 8, which without question is absolutely both awfully brilliant and brilliantly awful. Jedi and Sith. Peanut Butter and Pickled Herring with Mayonnaise microwaved... or whatever. Ep 8, film number two of a trilogy reboots all the set up from Ep 7. It does this by changing (or should I say subverting expectations of) the focus from the Skywalkers to potentially everyone else, and doing so SUPER BLUNTLY - yet beautifully. Anti-War in a film with war in the title. It flips everything. You, me, and yo mama if she was watching. Scorched earth, and there are no survivors. By the end of the movie we have an arc - that was already a flimsy start to begin with - that has been turned into swiss cheese.

Remember all the build up about Reys Linage in Ep 7? Doesn't matter, her parents were nobody important.
Remember all the build up about Snoke in Ep 7? Making him look like he was the big bad of this arc? Doesn't matter, he dead. Like... so dead.

... (I'm being lazy and stopping there.)

TL;DR - Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.

Awfully brilliant and brilliantly awful.

By the end of the movie, Ep 7 doesn't matter and most relationships that movie has made are towards characters that are either new, or dead. Our main cast have hardly had any connection with one another at all! I guess... is rose lando in this case? I don't know.

So enter Ep 9...


In the last film Poe was humbled. His cocksure attitude was not an asset but a liability, and got him and his friends into deeper trouble as the film went on. By the end that ego and bravado gave way to trust. Trust in his commanders. Trust in his friends. Trust in what's bigger than himself. He learned about the true nature of leadership. And yet, from the very start of TROS he reverts to the cocky arrogant prick he once was. After he landed my first thought was "why is everyone being a dick to each other?". Poe suddenly has beef with Rey for some reason. He yells at her for damaging BB8. He tells her she should be out fighting instead of training. But it's bullshit because: 1. It doesn't really come from anywhere, and 2. As a character conflict it is literally dropped and doesn't effect anything in the film.

[image] "That's a bingo!"

It would be one thing if we clearly see him in a situation where Rey refuses to come with, and there be a dramatic loss he suffers where he is sure Rey could have helped. We need scenes to see the resentment fostering at him having to do all the heavy lifting when she can force lift rocks. We need that gulf to widen during the course of the film, so Rey's friends plausibly push her away creating an isolation Kylo could exploit. But… nothing. It doesn't matter and is forgotten about. Much like everything in this movie.

If only we had more time to develop these characters.

Poe merely ferries characters from Mcguffan to Mcguffan, before finally being promoted to General when Leia dies. Does he take this opportunity to put into effect what he's learned about leadership? To inspire? To make the hard choices? No of course not. He just… gives up. Literally. No rousing speech, no appeal to hope. Just… hey guys sorry but we are fucked. Lando shows up and oh look at that the tide has turned. Not only does this not make any sense for Poe's character, but it's outrageous. At the end of Last Jedi, nobody came when they sent out the distress call. So what happened? What did Lando say to everyone to convince them to come this time?! Just hand waved when it could have been a rousing emotional moment. Forget Lando. Poe should have been the one to go out and rally everyone together, having grown into a true leader and uniting everyone. And we should have seen that. But nope. Out of nowhere.

I agree. Of all the characters, Poe has had the most obvious arc from cocksure ace pilot to humbled ace pilot. That said, as I recall they did show his wavering belief in the resistances capability in the cause down on that planet where we meet Zorii Bliss. Regardless this choice squanders the whole arc, as is the pattern of this whole sequel... thing.

What about Finn? He goes from caring about nothing but himself and Rey to becoming a part of the rebellion. "I'm rebel scum!" he shouted triumphantly in defiance to Phasma, and by the end ready to give his life to save everyone else instead of run. So where does that go here? Oh wait, he just kind of is in this movie always shouting "Rey!" and not doing anything. No hard choices to make for the cause. And when did he and Poe start going at it? It makes no fucking sense. They are on each other for no real reason that I could tell. What did Finn have to tell Rey? Why constantly bring it up when there's nothing to do with it? Why pair Finn with a character you introduce late who is 'just like him'? Why not pair him with Rose? As someone else rightfully pointed out, you learn things from people who are not like you. There's no drama and catharsis in just being like "Oh hey, you were taken as a kid too? Wow cool. Let's go fight together!".

Finn feels like his character is being prepped for a spin off. Despite the incongruity, Finn seemed more focused this time to me, more sure of his place in the universe. I'm not sure how or why though. There were also moments where he seemed force sensitive. Oh, and Leia told him the truth about Rey. There.

Bonus note: I'm so glad Phasma was not in this. What cool look for such a lame paper tiger.

Hux. Why is he helping them? "I don't care if you win, I just want Kylo to lose". Ug. We need to see this discontent grow. Like every other character in this film we're simply told what they feel but we are never shown why. I kind of get it, as Kylo is being a petulant brat at the end of TLJ, but they simply needed to butt heads more for this to make and sense or track. He was perfectly fine with blowing up planets and crushing the rebellion before. We need to see him change his mind. Did you know a scene was cut out where Hux has at it with Kylo in the opening? He yells at him for chasing ghosts. Not much but it'd have been something.

Honestly, watching that sniveling shit get shot was a highlight. Dark to say but, did at anytime you feel like - yes this is a diabolical leader with a vision? I mean I suppose it's realistic, "How did this person get promoted to this position", but it's sure wasn't very compelling to watch.

What does Rey want? Why is she training to be a Jedi? She wants to find her place in the world? Discover who she is? Then why does she get that easy answer? You're a Palpatine. You and Kylo have a dyad. Here's where you are meant to be. It's much more interesting for her to forge her own identify. Realize that family isn't just blood but a bond of friendship blah blah oh well I guess the force doesn't belong to everyone and it's just about lineage and dynasty.

I've been asking that first question for two and 1 half movies. The Jedi training in this movie seemed to be a part 1 of 2 quick justification of why she wields such... POWER... UNLIMITED POWUHHHH! And... stuff. Now In my review I mention I find the Palpatine blood line angle to be potentially very interesting, but I would like to note I like this idea too. Be your own woman honey *snap snap*. I love it!

If only there was more time.

In fact I repeat this for the next two paragraphs and change (which I removed for the sake of post size) which leads us full circle to...

What is it about?

Ug.

What is it about? What is it all about?

"The minute she finished, she grabbed me and said, 'I'd better be at the forefront of IX!' Because Harrison was front and center on VII, and Mark is front and center on VIII. She thought IX would be her movie. And it would have been."
Kathleen Kennedy, on Carrie Fisher's death

"To have no script and to have a release date and have it be essentially a two-year window when you're saying (to yourself), you've got two years from the decision to do it to release, and you have literally nothing... You don't have the story, you don't have the cast, you don't have the designers, the sets. There was a crew, and there were things that will be worked on for the version that preceded ours, but this was starting over."
J.J. Abrams, on taking over from Colin Trevorrow

The movie was about finishing what was started. It is about finishing what you started no matter the cost. The ups, the downs, and the unplanned weirdness of it all. Regardless the context read in, there is your answer. I'm not saying it's good, I'm saying it's an answer.

#ReleaseTheGeorgeLucasCut

SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 22:04 (637 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

TL;DR - Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.

Except that wasn't the message.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 23:07 (637 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

TL;DR - Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.


Except that wasn't the message.

Context Context Context. The core of Codys post is "What's this movie about?" The whole of my post is how I'm perplexed that's even a question due to the lack of building connectiveness though out the sequels. Hence... Let the past die, so on, being used as my TLDR since I didn't want to sit and list all the elements. It's as if he wanted to kill anything even remotely built in the past movie, flimsy as the last movie may have been in those respects. I was not speaking about the message of Ep 8 alone.

SO there everyone. Here is a TL;DR thanks to a TL;DR. TL;DR-CEPTION! MUST GO DEEPER!

[image]

Yeah. That seems about right.

Silliness aside, this is interesting (from what I skimmed). I'll have to read this later. Thank you.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by breitzen @, Kansas, Friday, December 27, 2019, 06:19 (637 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

TL;DR - Let the past die. Kill it, if you have to. That’s the only way to become what you were meant to be.


Except that wasn't the message.

I've never felt like Rian's "point" of TLJ was Kylo's philosophy. (this is the danger of audiences thinking that their interpretation is the only "correct" one) What so unique about TLJ is that all of the main characters have characters arcs: Rey, Ben, Poe, Finn, and Luke. I find it interesting that so many people latched onto the villain's message.

I'd even argue that Rian did a fantastic job of following through on setups that JJ had in Force Awakens. They weren't the answers most people expected, but it's not like he RESET anything, he moved it forward to a new place (admittedly a place where a lot of the fandom wasn't comfortable with). Now I've only seen Ep. IX once, so I need to revisit it to have a more thoughtful take, but I have to agree that TRoS does reset or retcon characters in order to make something that was "safer" for fan appeal.

I think the "point" (as of my first viewing) is that "we can choose our own destiny". This is a good message, but I think its execution is pretty sloppy.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by breitzen @, Kansas, Thursday, December 26, 2019, 17:29 (637 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Ultimately, this is a big miss for me. Here are my thoughts:

Brett’s Spoiler Review

Between all the TLJ retcons and character inconsistencies, this movie just fell flat. I didn’t feel anything. And that was a bummer.

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, December 27, 2019, 13:11 (637 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by Kermit, Friday, December 27, 2019, 13:49

Didn't love it. Didn't think it was great (although it had some great scenes). Didn't feel emotionally connected to it, but I think The Last Jedi killed the last vestige of affection I had for this trilogy.

At least Luke seemed himself again. I think J.J. Abrams did as well as he could have given the junk pile that Rian Johnson left him. A better director/writer could have done better, but it met my low expectations.

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I liked it fine.

by Harmanimus @, Friday, December 27, 2019, 19:12 (636 days ago) @ Kermit

“One of the many brilliant things that Rian did in ‘The Last Jedi’ was give Luke an arc. He learned something. He got somewhere. So at the end of that film he recommitted to the thing at the very beginning of the film he was rejecting, so the idea that even Luke Skywalker can learn something,” Abrams said. “I think for a kid to hear Luke Skywalker say I was wrong, I think is a beautiful thing. And I think it’s something we could all probably do with, a little bit.”

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 08:51 (636 days ago) @ Harmanimus
edited by Kermit, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 09:42

“One of the many brilliant things that Rian did in ‘The Last Jedi’ was give Luke an arc. He learned something. He got somewhere. So at the end of that film he recommitted to the thing at the very beginning of the film he was rejecting, so the idea that even Luke Skywalker can learn something,” Abrams said. “I think for a kid to hear Luke Skywalker say I was wrong, I think is a beautiful thing. And I think it’s something we could all probably do with, a little bit.”

Consider the source. I think JJ Abrams is talented but I wouldn't call anything he's done brilliant. But sure, let's give Rian a cookie for including an arc for Luke, something any decent writer should have done. That doesn't make it well executed. I don't want to rehash this, but I don't have a problem with Luke finding himself in a place where he wants to be a hermit and finding a reason to fight again. The way it was handled (especially the initiating event) was wrong-headed in my opinion, and incongruent with Luke's character in the previous films. (I think Hamill's initial negative reaction to this revision of Luke's character was on the money.) I submit that Rian was not someone who thoroughly understood the essence of Star Wars, but was someone who saw its parts as simply toys in a sandbox to play with as he saw fit, someone who misread archetype as stereotype and monomyth as hackneyed formula and therefore felt no need to respect the material. It appears to me that he was instead mainly motivated to subvert its foundations and insert topical issues into it. That's a fine approach artistically, but Star Wars was not the right vehicle for it. When Johnson does thoroughly understand his material he is indeed capable of brilliance--cf. his Breaking Bad episodes.

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I liked it fine.

by Harmanimus @, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 14:26 (636 days ago) @ Kermit

I am unable to agree with your root suppositions here. And I think to suggest Rian Johnson doesn't "understand" Star Wars is dismissive, if not sorely unfounded. Specifically talking here about the Rashomon Event as presented in TLJ? Entirely rooted in what has been shown of Luke's character and structurally consistent with mythic storytelling. It fits in thematically with no reliance on any assumption of modern-narrative-inserts. I'll acknowledge plainly that people were not happy because they did not get the story they had built up in their head, but I have to disagree on the base assumption that it is something not structurally Star Wars when in many ways it is one of the most traditionally "Star Wars" pieces of media to come out of Disney.

And Mark Hamill specifically regrets his initial doubts and expressing them (how very Luke Skywalker of him) publicly.

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I liked it fine.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 14:56 (636 days ago) @ Kermit

I don't want to rehash this, but I don't have a problem with Luke finding himself in a place where he wants to be a hermit and finding a reason to fight again. The way it was handled (especially the initiating event) was wrong-headed in my opinion, and incongruent with Luke's character in the previous films.

Dude's seen some shit and it's been 30 years. 100% could change.

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 16:13 (635 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I don't want to rehash this, but I don't have a problem with Luke finding himself in a place where he wants to be a hermit and finding a reason to fight again. The way it was handled (especially the initiating event) was wrong-headed in my opinion, and incongruent with Luke's character in the previous films.


Dude's seen some shit and it's been 30 years. 100% could change.

100%? I have my doubts, but regardless, the way to sell it isn’t with a few minutes of exposition after nearly an hour of showing this unrecognizable character. In my opinion it’s a shoddily made movie.

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I liked it fine.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Saturday, December 28, 2019, 22:40 (635 days ago) @ Kermit

I don't want to rehash this, but I don't have a problem with Luke finding himself in a place where he wants to be a hermit and finding a reason to fight again. The way it was handled (especially the initiating event) was wrong-headed in my opinion, and incongruent with Luke's character in the previous films.


Dude's seen some shit and it's been 30 years. 100% could change.


100%? I have my doubts, but regardless, the way to sell it isn’t with a few minutes of exposition after nearly an hour of showing this unrecognizable character. In my opinion it’s a shoddily made movie.

"It's not what you say, it's how you say it".

The key word in your argument is could, Cody. It is the moves job to sell the change. For some, the little given was not enough. Too much a leap of faith.

Having said that, I wonder what that difference is?

Sidenote: If I was a more then an arm-chair hobbyist scientist (and I could get the funding) I'd study the wider dynamics to all of this. There are so many moving parts. Psychology, Sociology, Cultural, Educational background, if the person is a cinemaphile or has a connection to such, and all sorts of other dynamics. I can see it happening in the little I can see, but by the heavens I don't know what words to use to describe it all.

It's quite fascinating though.

...and yes. I've found what Kermit has said so far is very reasonable. There is a, I suppose selfish, part of me that would have like it if your thoughts were inversed Kerm for the sake of discussion, if you get my meaning. Would be a fun conversation from you.

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I liked it fine.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 30, 2019, 10:34 (634 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

100%? I have my doubts, but regardless, the way to sell it isn’t with a few minutes of exposition after nearly an hour of showing this unrecognizable character. In my opinion it’s a shoddily made movie.

This is where we differ… he's not unrecognizable at all.

Luke was never perfect. He always made mistakes. That's the whole point of empire. He fails in the cave. He leaves his training early. In Jedi he fucking wails on Vader and nearly gives into hate. So the idea that he for just a second gave into fear with regard to Kylo Ren is not only plausible, but actually quite in character.

You seem totally caught up on the hero's journey thing. It's not a story blueprint dude. And one of the biggest mistakes in being critical of stories is to compare it against what WE would want for the characters. I know this isn't the Luke YOU wanted or envisioned. But it's completely consistent with everything before, and you need to just open up and let the story be told. Especially because what we may want is often not as good as what we need. We don't get anything if Luke is just a badass Jedi like in the EU. This is a much better story.

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, December 30, 2019, 11:25 (634 days ago) @ Cody Miller

100%? I have my doubts, but regardless, the way to sell it isn’t with a few minutes of exposition after nearly an hour of showing this unrecognizable character. In my opinion it’s a shoddily made movie.


This is where we differ… he's not unrecognizable at all.

Luke was never perfect. He always made mistakes. That's the whole point of empire. He fails in the cave. He leaves his training early. In Jedi he fucking wails on Vader and nearly gives into hate. So the idea that he for just a second gave into fear with regard to Kylo Ren is not only plausible, but actually quite in character.

You seem totally caught up on the hero's journey thing. It's not a story blueprint dude. And one of the biggest mistakes in being critical of stories is to compare it against what WE would want for the characters. I know this isn't the Luke YOU wanted or envisioned. But it's completely consistent with everything before, and you need to just open up and let the story be told. Especially because what we may want is often not as good as what we need. We don't get anything if Luke is just a badass Jedi like in the EU. This is a much better story.

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

I liked it fine.

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 15:35 (633 days ago) @ Kermit

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.

Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, December 30, 2019, 18:18 (633 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.


Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

Again, it's not the path of Luke's arc that bothers me, but how his character was written. The Luke in the original trilogy, had he become a hermit, would have not acted like Luke in The Last Jedi barring some brain injury. He had a completely different personality. I believe Luke served as Rian's surrogate and Rey served as the Star Wars' fan surrogate. I don't think he was trying to be consistent with Luke's character or serve the story so much as screw with (or "educate") fans that had what he saw as silly, simplistic expectations. Rian has said again and again that he doesn't think he's done a good job unless some people strongly dislike his movies. That's his artistic mojo. I actually respect that, and I like many movies with moral ambiguity that divide audiences. It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal. He would be a better director for a Star Trek movie--that franchise has a more complex moral topography, and has a history of including allegories that represent current cultural issues. This is why a lot of people like Star Trek more than Star Wars, and that's fine. Viva la difference, I say.

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.

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I liked it fine.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 20:23 (633 days ago) @ Kermit

It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal.

That's just subjective man, in case you didn't know opinions were subjective.

But seriously, why? Star Wars have been that, but that doesn't necessitate that they must always be.

{I'd also argue that The Last Jedi isn't as subversive to those themes as most want it to be, whether they love or hate the movie.)

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.

I think The Last Jedi is legitimately my favorite Star Wars movie, but I agree it has issues and could have been better. There is some poor plotting, but I mostly think the actual writing is brilliant. Why the nitpick on new Force powers, though? I see this complaint a lot, and I just don't get it. You think maybe the (arguably) most powerful Jedi to ever exist might learn and utilize some new things. I also think the notable Force ability was used absolutely brilliantly (and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

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I liked it fine.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, December 30, 2019, 20:41 (633 days ago) @ cheapLEY

(and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

In fact, IMHO, JJ used it marvelously.

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I liked it fine.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 20:52 (633 days ago) @ ZackDark

(and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).


In fact, IMHO, JJ used it marvelously.

Yes, it was fantastic, along with the lightspeed skipping scene, which also embraces The Last Jedi and provides a neat (if extremely dangerous) solution to being tracked through lightspeed.

I'm actually eager to see Rise of Skywalker again. There are lots of things I don't like in regards to its treatment of The Last Jedi, but it does actually embrace quite a bit of it, and does some great things with the material. The Rey/Ben connection is fantastic in both movies, and JJ really cranking that up was just brilliant. I hate the kiss, but their character relationship was excellent and well-utilized otherwise.

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I liked it fine.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 09:34 (633 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Kermit, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 09:40

It's also why he was a bad choice for a Star Wars movie, which is premised on universal themes with universal appeal.


That's just subjective man, in case you didn't know opinions were subjective.

Have I not sufficiently personalized my arguments to make it clear this is my opinion? Be that as it may, it is not based solely on personal feelings.

But seriously, why? Star Wars have been that, but that doesn't necessitate that they must always be.

It doesn't, but one can argue that it loses a substantive part of its value by moving away from that. The original Star Wars was essentially a fairy tale. I'd argue that that's always been the series' greatest strength and power. (For the record, I think that, at least until The Last Jedi, the greatest dilution of this power came from the prequels.) One can dismiss this element as kid stuff, but doing so risks sounding ignorant about the importance of myth and fairy tales (see Campbell and Bettelheim).

{I'd also argue that The Last Jedi isn't as subversive to those themes as most want it to be, whether they love or hate the movie.)

There are loads of other problems--the slow chase dynamic, the completely new Force abilities, the grecian formula issue with Luke's beard, useless subplots, and a pattern of aggressively subverting expectations minutes after setting them up.


I think The Last Jedi is legitimately my favorite Star Wars movie, but I agree it has issues and could have been better. There is some poor plotting, but I mostly think the actual writing is brilliant. Why the nitpick on new Force powers, though? I see this complaint a lot, and I just don't get it. You think maybe the (arguably) most powerful Jedi to ever exist might learn and utilize some new things. I also think the notable Force ability was used absolutely brilliantly (and again in The Rise of Skywalker, one of the few things JJ picked up from The Last Jedi and embraced).

I enjoyed the new movie, and I'm glad for you that you got so much out of this trilogy. I've tried only to express why I got less. As I said in a previous thread, I think The Last Jedi will be seen as the most dated movie so far, and this trilogy will seem to be a disjointed mess by future generations who don't view them through the lens of nostalgia.

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I liked it fine.

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 11:57 (633 days ago) @ Kermit

It doesn't, but one can argue that it loses a substantive part of its value by moving away from that.

ESB belongs right in the middle of all of this in blinding support to TLJ. what TLJ did is not new and neither is the flack it receives for it.

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I liked it fine.

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, December 31, 2019, 13:07 (633 days ago) @ Kermit

Have I not sufficiently personalized my arguments to make it clear this is my opinion? Be that as it may, it is not based solely on personal feelings.

You made it perfectly clear, given that you wrote it. That was just snark, because this forum seems to have a real hard-on for pointing out that opinions are just opinions, as if that’s not already perfectly clear.

I enjoyed the new movie, and I'm glad for you that you got so much out of this trilogy. I've tried only to express why I got less. As I said in a previous thread, I think The Last Jedi will be seen as the most dated movie so far, and this trilogy will seem to be a disjointed mess by future generations who don't view them through the lens of nostalgia.

I agree that it’ll feel disjointed, but I don’t think it’s fair to lay that at the feet of The Last Jedi. If they wanted a trilogy, they should have write a trilogy and had a plan.

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I liked it fine.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 20:26 (633 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.


Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.

I think that's a fair point. Luke's behavior is one of apathy, it's one of genuine fear. He struggled with and overcame his fear in the original trilogy, but facing Vader is altogether different than the fear of being responsible for the creation of the next Vader, the the fear that he may do so again if he remains a Jedi or teaches another.

I think Luke's reaction is totally valid, and I honestly don't see his character as different. He seems like the same old Luke to me, just one that's a bit lost.

I liked it fine.

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 22:33 (633 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Deja vu. I totally agree with your larger points about story and what we want vs. what we need. As executed, the Last Jedit just didn't work for me. It's okay to disagree.


Perhaps something the movie could have done better is to sell us on Luke's fear. We have to accept Luke's narration of what he sees in Ben's head and what those visions mean to him. What was presented isn't a lot and I can see how some may not be able to suspend disbelief in that.


I think that's a fair point. Luke's behavior is one of apathy, it's one of genuine fear. He struggled with and overcame his fear in the original trilogy, but facing Vader is altogether different than the fear of being responsible for the creation of the next Vader, the the fear that he may do so again if he remains a Jedi or teaches another.

I think Luke's reaction is totally valid, and I honestly don't see his character as different. He seems like the same old Luke to me, just one that's a bit lost.

I mean, think about it. If his father really was the one to bring balance to the force...the one of prophecy...he was afraid he would be responsible for the undoing of all that everyone had worked for. The weight of the galaxy on the shoulders of one man...at least from his perspective.

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SPOILERS Star Wars IX - The Rise of Skywalker SPOILERS

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 20:46 (633 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Perhaps a useless exercise, but I can't help but wonder what could have been. I think a few small changes could have really elevated the film for me, as a conclusion.

The first and most important is one that could not have been possible with the unfortunate death of Carrie Fisher. The Han moment should have been Leia. Han felt out of place to me (despite how much I loved to see him again). This film should have been about Ben and Leia, the inverse reflection of Luke and Anakin. I think it was pretty widely know that this was supposed to be Leia's movie, and unfortunately that didn't happen, and it couldn't, given the circumstances. I've no doubt they did what they could with what they had. You can maybe read the scene with Han as still being Leia's doing, somehow. She was clearly doing something, her body stuck around until Ben died.

The other thing would have been giving the Emperor more time, somehow. I haven't worked out how to do this, the movie is already blistering fast, I'm not sure how you smash anything else into it. But, as it stands, you're just told the Emperor is back, and you either have to buy that or the movie mostly just feels completely ridiculous. Leading me in would have helped, I think. It mostly still worked for me, but that's based solely on the presence of the Emperor and how sinister and terrifying he is. Some clearer motivation for Kylo to accept him (beyond, hey, here's a bunch of Star Destroyers if you do what I want). Although, at a certain point, it doesn't matter how they set it up, bringing Palpatine back is silly and ridiculous, so maybe just revealing that in the opening crawl and making the audience buy it before the movie even starts was the only way to do it.

There are a few things I would have taken to the extreme, too. It's already a movie that has a lot of fan service, there is one moment I'd have loved to see that cranked to eleven, and that's the Jedi past moment. Hearing all those voices was extremely cool and satisfying, and it really worked for me. But why not go that extra step? Seeing Rey surrounded by dozens of Force ghost Jedi would have made that scene. It would be extremely difficult to do it while not feeling and looking ridiculous, but if it was done right, I'd have loved it.

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About your second point

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, December 30, 2019, 21:16 (633 days ago) @ cheapLEY

There was this during the marketing lead-up.

Maybe it's what you were looking for? Or something more?

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About your second point

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 30, 2019, 21:30 (633 days ago) @ ZackDark

Yeah, I have seen that (and lots of complaints about it). And he was pretty prominent in trailers, maybe that's enough.

I do think seeing that broadcast and having the rebels react to it on screen in the movie might have helped a little. Again, in a move that already feels stuffed, I'm not sure how you fit it in, but I think it would have helped. But, again, it's such a ridiculous thing, I can totally see why they just tell you it happened, because at a certain point, I'm not sure there's much they can really do to make you buy in anymore than you would just be reading about it in the crawl.

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Power

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, January 03, 2020, 23:50 (629 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

The key difference between Abrams and Johnson’s films, then, is an understanding of the Jedi. For Johnson, a Jedi is a hero and everyone has the potential to be heroic – it does not erase their flaws; in fact, overcoming the binary thinking of good and evil and embracing one’s flaws is crucial to a hero’s journey. To Abrams, it’s about power, and men understand power very differently: It’s inherited; it’s handed from one man to another without hesitation; it’s a right, not a privilege. They will commit countless atrocities and acts of oppression and subjugation to keep others – the marginalized – from wrestling it away. Take, for instance, Finn: The Rise of Skywalker suggests (and John Boyega and Abrams both confirm) that Finn is Force-sensitive, despite the fact that he is not related to any Sith or Jedi. Rey, on the other hand – the trilogy’s hero, who happens to be a woman – cannot possibly have power unless she inherited it from some crusty old white guy. The man needs no qualification to obtain power, but the woman does. It’s pretty insulting.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/30/knives-out-has-something-important-to-say-about...

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Power

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, January 06, 2020, 14:57 (627 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Kermit, Monday, January 06, 2020, 15:12

The key difference between Abrams and Johnson’s films, then, is an understanding of the Jedi. For Johnson, a Jedi is a hero and everyone has the potential to be heroic – it does not erase their flaws; in fact, overcoming the binary thinking of good and evil and embracing one’s flaws is crucial to a hero’s journey. To Abrams, it’s about power, and men understand power very differently: It’s inherited; it’s handed from one man to another without hesitation; it’s a right, not a privilege. They will commit countless atrocities and acts of oppression and subjugation to keep others – the marginalized – from wrestling it away. Take, for instance, Finn: The Rise of Skywalker suggests (and John Boyega and Abrams both confirm) that Finn is Force-sensitive, despite the fact that he is not related to any Sith or Jedi. Rey, on the other hand – the trilogy’s hero, who happens to be a woman – cannot possibly have power unless she inherited it from some crusty old white guy. The man needs no qualification to obtain power, but the woman does. It’s pretty insulting.


https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/30/knives-out-has-something-important-to-say-about...

It's this kind of stuff that makes me want to wash my hands of Star Wars forever, or at least stop discussing it with any hint of seriousness. (I mean, Kylo got his force sensitivity from his MOTHER, which renders this whole passage nonsensical.)

If I did accept this analysis, I'd be in the Rian camp. To me the non-genetic aspect of the Force was one of the few things that The Last Jedi got right. The closest Star Wars (or as the kids like to say, Episode IV) ever got to saying the Force wasn't available to anyone was the intonation of "The force is strong in this one." As far as I'm concerned, the franchise jumped the shark the first time midichlorians were mentioned.

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