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Are Adept weapons going to return? (Destiny)

by cheapLEY @, Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:33 (19 days ago)

It seems pretty clear now that Trials is going to return, given the status updates on the Crucible Director.

Trials gear is obviously a huge component in making that exciting, and the new Osmosis perk has already been playing with elemental weapons in the Kinetic slot. Does that pave the way for Adept versions of weapons to return? Does that upset the sandbox in any way? I don’t recall it being a big problem in Destiny, but maybe I wasn’t tuned in enough to that side of things to have even known.

Just something I sort of wondered about after playing with Buzzard a bunch lately (which is a really fun sidearm, you should get out if you haven’t yet).

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Are Adept weapons going to return?

by squidnh3, Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:43 (19 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I would be really surprised if elemental kinetics returned, as that was only a thing in D1Y1 and they made a pretty big deal about leaving those behind. I'd expect more of the D1Y2/3 versions, where they just had extra/special perks (the buff when you were the last man standing seems like a good candidate).

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Are Adept weapons going to return?

by cheapLEY @, Monday, February 10, 2020, 10:53 (19 days ago) @ squidnh3

I honestly forgot they made that switch.

Maybe the new form of the old Pinnacle weapons with unique perks? I’m sure that would upset a lot of people, though.

I hope not

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, February 10, 2020, 11:22 (19 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Or if they do, not the ones that literally had an extra intrinsic perk slot.

Feels like it would be a strange choice to go with elemental Adepts though, since they only just debuted osmosis. Would rather take away from that perk.

Maybe give them a free masterwork (and the traditional minor cosmetic effect) or something and leave it at that. Nothing fancy, but saves some cores and whatnot.

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Are Adept weapons going to return?

by Harmanimus @, Monday, February 10, 2020, 12:11 (19 days ago) @ cheapLEY

While I don’t know what they will choose for it, I would suggest it’s a great opportunity for Curated Rolls. Hopefully with another influx of weapon perks along with it. Bonus perk options and intrinsic “last man standing” stuff that only works in Elimination Modes would also be uses I’d be down for. But As it stands there are more significant differences between Kinetic and Energy weapons in D2 than simply applying an elemental type on a Primary in D1.

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Other Trials Questions

by squidnh3, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 07:17 (18 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Will the settings be the same as the Elimination playlist? (I'm pro)

Will the full D1 trials card come back with "Mercy", "First Win", and "Double Win", along with a special Trials currency? (I'm ambivalent, against more currencies)

Will it be the same map all weekend? (I'm pro, Burning Shrine please)

Will there be single player Matchmaking? (I'm against)

Will there be win-based matching? (I think they should start without it)

Will there be bounties that can be accomplished without a large amount of winning success? (I hope so, players losing engagement with Trials was why it went away in the first place).

Will power/light level matter? (I'm against)

What/where will the Lighthouse be?

Freelance option please

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 07:30 (18 days ago) @ squidnh3

For Doubles too

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Freelance option please

by squidnh3, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 15:43 (18 days ago) @ someotherguy

While I hate to argue in favor of exclusion, I think a freelance option in Trials would be a poor idea for two reasons:

First, I've always felt the fundamental core of Trials was "making a run with your team". The quintessential (positive) Trials experience is that moment when your team 'clicks' together and you run off a streak of wins. The impersonal nature of singles matchmaking where one person could be on their first game, another on their 5th, and another on their Flawless game goes against the core of that experience.

Secondly, and more practically, a Trials freelance playlist could not have skill-based matchmaking. If it did, there would be a strong incentive to "derank" by purposefully losing your first 15-20 games, locking you in to inferior opponents to increase your chances of a long win streak when you actually start trying. On the other hand, having a freelance playlist without skill-based matchmaking sounds likely to be extremely frustrating.

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+1

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 16:48 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

- No text -

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Freelance option please

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 17:47 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

Connection Based Matchmaking with a significant improvement on team balancing would be the ideal if they were to do a solos playlist. I mean, it would be a good way to dip your toes and if they did it like D1 where there were rewards you could get for accomplishments other than win streaks I’m pretty sure that the user engagement would be higher. And appetites whetted by some loot drops and exposure to the game mode would lead to more people seeking out and engaging as a team.

Guess I just dont get to play then. Cool thanks

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 13:14 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

All of my Destiny friends are in the states. Which worked fine when I had late shift in a bar and could stay up late. But no longer.

Cool thanks?

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 14:07 (17 days ago) @ someotherguy

All of my Destiny friends are in the states. Which worked fine when I had late shift in a bar and could stay up late. But no longer.

Yeah, that sucks... but why can't you just be disappointed, instead of needing to blame it on Squid? He was just proffering an opinion on why it might not work. He wasn't saying "you can't have nice things, because I'm mean", he was just laying out the reasoning behind his opinion.

Blaming?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 15:50 (17 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Nah, I'm just thanking him for arguing in favour of excluding people. Dont be precious.

Blaming?

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, February 12, 2020, 16:34 (16 days ago) @ someotherguy

Nah, I'm just thanking him for arguing in favour of excluding people. Dont be precious.

Good lord, you're a prickly one.

Okay, fine. You're absolutely right, he shouldn't consider the big picture when discussing issues, he should worry about individuals. We all should. Because heaven knows Destiny isn't about making the majority of players as happy as possible.

I agree with him. I'd agree with him even if it affected me negatively (ie if I had no way to play with friends), because I think that Trials would be demonstrably less fun for EVERYONE (including freelancers) if freelancers were included. Yes, I believe that it would be less fun to play than not play.

And yes, this means I'm arguing in favor of excluding people. Or, in the world I live in, it's acknowledging that sometimes what's best for everyone isn't best for me, or someone I know. But hey, if you want to be as ungenerous as you can when ascribing motive... sure. It's all about excluding people.

Blaming?

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 01:34 (16 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Nah, I'm just thanking him for arguing in favour of excluding people. Dont be precious.


Good lord, you're a prickly one.

Okay, fine. You're absolutely right, he shouldn't consider the big picture when discussing issues, he should worry about individuals. We all should. Because heaven knows Destiny isn't about making the majority of players as happy as possible.

How exactly does having fewer options please more people? If you don't want to play freelance trials, don't queue into it. Their adding it to the game would affect you none.

I agree with him. I'd agree with him even if it affected me negatively (ie if I had no way to play with friends), because I think that Trials would be demonstrably less fun for EVERYONE (including freelancers) if freelancers were included. Yes, I believe that it would be less fun to play than not play.

How exactly would the inclusion of a freelance playlist be less fun for people not playing in it? And how exactly would it be less fun that not playing trials at all?


And yes, this means I'm arguing in favor of excluding people. Or, in the world I live in, it's acknowledging that sometimes what's best for everyone isn't best for me, or someone I know. But hey, if you want to be as ungenerous as you can when ascribing motive... sure. It's all about excluding people.

Oh come on. I didn't say the motive was excluding people, did I? Obviously squid ian't over there cackling manically at the people who would lose out.

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Blaming?

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 09:39 (16 days ago) @ someotherguy

Nah, I'm just thanking him for arguing in favour of excluding people. Dont be precious.


Good lord, you're a prickly one.

Okay, fine. You're absolutely right, he shouldn't consider the big picture when discussing issues, he should worry about individuals. We all should. Because heaven knows Destiny isn't about making the majority of players as happy as possible.


How exactly does having fewer options please more people? If you don't want to play freelance trials, don't queue into it. Their adding it to the game would affect you none.

It's not about pleasing more people. It's about displeasing fewer.

I agree with him. I'd agree with him even if it affected me negatively (ie if I had no way to play with friends), because I think that Trials would be demonstrably less fun for EVERYONE (including freelancers) if freelancers were included. Yes, I believe that it would be less fun to play than not play.


How exactly would the inclusion of a freelance playlist be less fun for people not playing in it? And how exactly would it be less fun that not playing trials at all?

I'm sure you've stopped playing a game because you didn't find it fun. There's your answer.


And yes, this means I'm arguing in favor of excluding people. Or, in the world I live in, it's acknowledging that sometimes what's best for everyone isn't best for me, or someone I know. But hey, if you want to be as ungenerous as you can when ascribing motive... sure. It's all about excluding people.


Oh come on. I didn't say the motive was excluding people, did I? Obviously squid ian't over there cackling manically at the people who would lose out.

You buried the lede, though, which is that squid thinks a freelance mode wouldn't work well. You focused on a supposed secondary effect of what he was arguing for.

I've had this same argument with people who want Raid matchmaking. There are some high-stakes activities in Destiny that require teams made up of actual teammates with the same level of commitment toward achieving a goal. Matchmaking cannot account for the level of commitment necessary for success. The only way to account for that commitment is have players do the sorting themselves by making the effort to seek each other out. THAT effort is a demonstration of your commitment to the ultimate goal of the activity.

I understand the desire for matchmaking. But the mindset seems to be because I can go down to the park anytime and find a pickup game of basketball, I should be able to walk into an arena and instantly find 12 other teammates who know all the rules, who play well together, and are committed to playing a regulation game for 48 minutes or more (regardless of how well it goes) in order to get a trophy.

It's not going to work out in a satisfactory way most of the time. And when it doesn't, that means people have a negative experience with the game. That negative experience affects people's overall impression of the game. Those negative impressions can affect the overall popularity of the game. I'm sure that one of Bungie's goals is to avoid releasing modes that would provide a negative experience most of the time. Maybe you think it would be fun, but maybe, just maybe, they have a better idea of what the outcome would be.

The truth is Bungie is not being exclusionary. You've decided that the effort it would take to find a trials team is too much. It's your decision to exclude yourself. I'm with you, by the way. I don't want to be the reason we fail at trials, so I seldom play it, except for those few times when I've joined people who had no expectation of getting the reward. If Bungie were to provide a freelance mode with the same rewards, the expectation would be that those rewards were attainable, which would not be true most (I bet 95%) of the time. Why would Bungie want to set people up for failure?

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Blaming?

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 10:14 (16 days ago) @ Kermit

Not to mention:
Playlist dilution (split player pools could mean slower and/or worse matchmaking)
Griefers (people throwing matches “for fun” assuming they go with CBMM, worse with SBMM)
Cheaters (for all the myriad reasons and methods)

I’m sure there are other negatives to highlight for a match-made trials. But the point of coordination is a really big deal and it all just compounds the less trivial the motivations are for engaging the mode.

This holds no water for me

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 12:25 (16 days ago) @ Kermit

It's not about pleasing more people. It's about displeasing fewer.

How does adding the mode displease anyone who doesn't use it?

This reminds me a lt of the "Dark Souls easy mode" debate. Lots of people who will never experience it claiming it will somehow ruin their unrelated experience.

It's real easy. If you don't want to play freelance comp, you don't press the freelance comp button, and then you continue to not play it.

Why does that not also apply to Trials?

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This holds no water for me

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:06 (16 days ago) @ someotherguy

It’s not about having zero impact on people not using it. It’s about putting forward a likely significantly negative experience for those people who try it out of curiosity.

Fair enough

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:08 (16 days ago) @ Harmanimus

- No text -

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This holds no water for me

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 13:33 (16 days ago) @ Harmanimus

It’s not about having zero impact on people not using it. It’s about putting forward a likely significantly negative experience for those people who try it out of curiosity.

You said what I wanted to say in so many fewer words. :)

I do think, however, that those negative experiences add up to the point where they can have an impact on the people not using the mode. We're tribal. When there's a significant amount of grousing about anything in the game it tends to dampen overall enthusiasm. I've certainly second-guessed my feelings about Destiny because of all the negative feedback about microtransactions even though I hardly ever pay attention them them. It's natural.

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+

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, February 13, 2020, 14:05 (16 days ago) @ Harmanimus

It’s not about having zero impact on people not using it. It’s about putting forward a likely significantly negative experience for those people who try it out of curiosity.

[image]People are Assholes [image]

(...and that's just for PvE. PvP trends to be FAR saltier, in my experience.)

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Other Trials Questions

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 11:57 (18 days ago) @ squidnh3

Will the settings be the same as the Elimination playlist? (I'm pro)

I haven’t played enough Elimination to weigh in on that. I intended to play, but just never really did.

Will the full D1 trials card come back with "Mercy", "First Win", and "Double Win", along with a special Trials currency? (I'm ambivalent, against more currencies)

I wouldn’t mind the old card system. I’m okay with Trials tokens for buying gear.

Will it be the same map all weekend? (I'm pro, Burning Shrine please)

I hope so.

Will there be single player Matchmaking? (I'm against)

I would mind if it allows matchmaking, but I sort of hope there’s no Freelance playlist. I don’t know how much it really matters, but I just like the idea of a single pool of Trials players.

Will there be win-based matching? (I think they should start without it)

Ditto. Go without it for the first season at least and see how it shakes out.

Will there be bounties that can be accomplished without a large amount of winning success? (I hope so, players losing engagement with Trials was why it went away in the first place).

I’m not sure about bounties. I don’t like the way bounties are so integral to everything in Destiny right now. But it would probably be fine and allow people who wouldn’t see the Lighthouse to be able to go into Trials and earth cool stuff.

Will power/light level matter? (I'm against)

I don’t really care either way. I hope they consider at least turning the Artifact bonus off so that there is a hard cap.

What/where will the Lighthouse be?

That’s a good question. Will it just be the old Lighthouse? Isn’t that the implication?

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Mind sharing which status updates?

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 07:35 (18 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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Mind sharing which status updates?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 09:44 (18 days ago) @ kidtsunami

The big new thing in the Crucible Director has Caloris Spires, Mercury as its descriptor. That’s where the Lighthouse is. It’s has seven bars around the outside, which are showing the progress the community is making by donating Fractaline (presumably towards unlocking Trials next season).

I’ve also some datamined dialogue from the end of this event that talks about restoring the Lighthouse.

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Are Adept weapons going to return?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, February 11, 2020, 14:15 (18 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It seems pretty clear now that Trials is going to return, given the status updates on the Crucible Director.

Trials gear is obviously a huge component in making that exciting, and the new Osmosis perk has already been playing with elemental weapons in the Kinetic slot. Does that pave the way for Adept versions of weapons to return? Does that upset the sandbox in any way? I don’t recall it being a big problem in Destiny, but maybe I wasn’t tuned in enough to that side of things to have even known.

Just something I sort of wondered about after playing with Buzzard a bunch lately (which is a really fun sidearm, you should get out if you haven’t yet).

There is a real weapon glut in Destiny, perhaps par for the course. So many really solid weapons already. With each new season comes the new hotness of weapons for that meta.

Let's see... we have;

  • An assortment of Exotics... Duh.
  • Most of the Pinnacle/Ritual Weapons
  • Breachlight
  • Steelfeather Repeater
  • Bygones
  • Spare Rations
  • Tigerspite
  • Dust Rock Blues
  • Mindbender’s Ambition
  • Trust
  • Beloved
  • Erentil FR4 (for now?)
  • Hammerhead
  • Roar of the Bear
  • Claws of the Wolf
  • Austringer
  • Rose
  • Duke Mk. 44.
  • Kindled Orchid
  • Tatara’s Gaze
  • Last Perdition
  • Right Side of Wrong
  • IKELOS Shotgun

... uhhh and that's all I can pull out of my head at the moment. I KNOW that list can be extended even more.

("Your list sucks INSANEdrive. Why no 'Your Favorite gun here'!)

If they do bring back Adept weapons, I hope they have unique frames with unique perks, like how Hakke frame rocket launchers have homing rockets by default with no perk needed. Elements based primary would be only best for PvE in Destny 2, which while cool, would suck. Trials of - whatever it's called, is the top top competitive PvP. I hope they reward weapons that reward skill, instead of just flat out power. No winning because you have X. What would that look like though? Not sure.

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