Power level limit for weapons in the future (Destiny)

by TheOmegaClown, Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 12:09 (608 days ago)

Looks like Bungie is introducing planned obsolescence for legendary guns ... split on this but after thinking about it I'm thinking it'll be a good thing.


https://www.pcgamer.com/bungie-plans-to-cap-the-power-of-legendary-weapons-in-destiny-2/

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by squidnh3, Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 13:54 (608 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

This strikes me a treatment for a symptom of a problem, not a solution to the actual problem. I haven't thought about it enough to be able to articulate the actual problem though.

FWIW, I hated it when they did this for The Taken King with our D1Y1 stuff (although to be fair they nerfed the crap out of all those weapons at the same time as 'obsoleting' them). RIP Red Hand IX.

Power level limit for weapons in the future

by FyreWulff, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 05:08 (607 days ago) @ squidnh3

This strikes me a treatment for a symptom of a problem, not a solution to the actual problem. I haven't thought about it enough to be able to articulate the actual problem though.

FWIW, I hated it when they did this for The Taken King with our D1Y1 stuff (although to be fair they nerfed the crap out of all those weapons at the same time as 'obsoleting' them). RIP Red Hand IX.

It was technically like that for the entirety of D1Y1 until House of Wolves. Dark Below left behind all the VoG gear in power cap.

I can see why Bungie is doing this, but I can see why people are being annoyed. It's true that keeping every single weapon in an MMO-style game 'active' creates tons of work and prevents across-the-board changes to the weapon sandbox. People are understandably annoyed that their favorite gun will no longer be viable for endgame.

What would be a good compromise at this point is if guns are capped out, maybe they should then become pullable from collections with a fixed roll?

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 07:08 (607 days ago) @ squidnh3

This strikes me a treatment for a symptom of a problem, not a solution to the actual problem. I haven't thought about it enough to be able to articulate the actual problem though.

The actual problem, is that within the sandobox there are only so many types of guns you can have that are different enough from each other.

The issue is that there are just too many guns, and this problem cannot be fixed. It's simply not solvable and inherent to the MMO genre.

Power level limit for weapons in the future

by TheOmegaClown, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 10:34 (607 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Spot on. I'm surprised that its lasted this long as it is.

Even simgle player games that feature any kind of rpg/ character growth / looter system that aren't MMOs do the same.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 12:29 (607 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

Spot on. I'm surprised that its lasted this long as it is.

Even simgle player games that feature any kind of rpg/ character growth / looter system that aren't MMOs do the same.

This is true. However it’s not as big of a problem because the game will actually end.

Power level limit for weapons in the future

by TheOmegaClown, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 15:08 (607 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The single player example wasnt to describe it as a problem within that genre, but as an method of engagement/reward that people dont generally lament.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, February 29, 2020, 22:48 (604 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

The single player example wasnt to describe it as a problem within that genre, but as an method of engagement/reward that people dont generally lament.

It's not generally lamented because these games have endings, making them immune to power creep.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Friday, March 06, 2020, 11:40 (599 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It's also because the game will not change dramatically, so the gun's value can be determined. In Destiny, you never know when a gun that was not good when you ditched it will become the new hotness. Leads to hoarding and attachment.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 09, 2020, 09:59 (596 days ago) @ Vortech

It's also because the game will not change dramatically, so the gun's value can be determined. In Destiny, you never know when a gun that was not good when you ditched it will become the new hotness. Leads to hoarding and attachment.

True! Another argument for larger expansion packs at less frequent intervals.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by cheapLEY @, Monday, March 09, 2020, 10:08 (596 days ago) @ Cody Miller

They’re doing that though.

I actually think they’re doing a pretty good job at catering to most people. You can play all the time with the seasonal updates, or you can jump in once a year in the fall with the big update.

I obviously think there are issues to work out with the seasonal model, but it mostly works.

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Power level limit for weapons in the future

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Wednesday, February 26, 2020, 14:40 (608 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

Welp, that's it for me. No way I'll be putting any time into D2 while this is still in effect. Hope those who do have fun, though.

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 14:55 (607 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown
edited by INSANEdrive, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 15:04

(Continuing from here)

I needed time to really think about this one, as the sheer RANGE of emotions this segment brews up is ridiculous. Somehow I both agree & understand and I both disagree & don’t understand. I’m not sure how this is the case, but I am ultimately sure of my feelings on all of this. So… here I go trying to parse that into the written word.

Basically it’s announced that the weapons team needs some breathing room. Infusion of light into old weapons has to end. There is a need to scrape away the residue from past Destiny 2 Experiments. Their problem is a finite system in an “everlasting” world, and our problem (the responses I’ve seen as well as my own feelings) is the EFFORT we’ve already put in under that guise of "everlasting" guarantee. “This is how things work in Destiny 2”, which is not a quote but a statement that been built with time and actions. We worked/played/sweated hard for some of those “check boxes”. For us the value is so we could have that chance to alter how we play, be it now or the future. It’s fun to go into “The Shop” and pick out the “hand crafted” tool for the job. Tools that other players might not have and so you are able to add just that much more to the team. Personally, it's why my vault has what it has.

There is a back and forth. “Development Needs” Vs “What Feels Right”. “Feels”...ugh.

In Destiny 2, with infusion, it’s like having every card you own in Magic available and playable in all formats forever. It passively creates power creep (an ongoing Destiny problem), which also means our teams need to spend more and more of their time re-testing and supporting old stuff instead of making new stuff, it reduces player desire for new items (which dismantles aspiration like the shard-the-blues post-Crucible match ritual), and it means we ultimately create a ton of gear that doesn’t have any value beyond ticking the box on the “I Got It” checklist.

That isn’t value. It’s actually the opposite of value, because it’s work that we could be putting into making new stuff, or improving old stuff. 

So now Bungie has put themselves into a position where they have no choice but to ask us to fall in love again. After many multiples of seasons totaling into years, if my mental math is correct. And frankly... even with the best of reasons, I don’t think they are going to be able to pull this off without chopping off an arm or two and calling it a flesh wound. Call it whatever you wish, but… this hurts. Alot. Too much time has been invested. Too much time has been invested. The cut off date (pun intended) is gone. This system they are proposing to change is part of Destiny 2. I don't expect that to stop anything, but... why does this hurt? Behold a possable answer. If Bungie wants to fix this, they need Destiny 3. That’s it. The Darkness comes in a does whatever it does – BOOM. Stuff gone. Traveler bitch slapped. Cats and Dogs living together, mass pandemonium. We go underground and learn the old ways from Saladin. Guns are sticks and we have to share the rock.

I do not presently think that this is a battle they are going to win. I played Destiny One, I remember the jest of the proposed method. I remember how much it sucked, as well as the cycles of weapons I played with that I might not have used if not for that system. So what do you say to those who came in from the free to play method? They do this as proposed and they will lose a large segment of the fan base, as well many of the gains they may have made in the last year going free to play. Again, they did this to themselves with the ever echoed (and perhaps misinterpreted) play your way.

Blackwater is Academi, Cambridge Analytica became Emerdata, and Destiny 2 needs to become Destiny 3. Rebranding! It works! Abit too freekn' well if I may say so myself.

Yes I know. It is stated that Bungie doesn’t want to make such a drastic move…

We’ve made a lot of Magic cards, and we want you to keep the ones you love in your collection (as opposed to taking them and throwing them all away and having the Tower get destroyed again). And a bunch of those Magic cards could be playable around the world while free-roaming or in PVP formats.

...and it is stated in the same paragraph that the idea of this cessation in infusion for old guns would only effect big name, big light, end game type stuffs...

But where Power matters or aspirational activities are involved, we’re going to make some changes to Legendary weapons. 

...but… well...

We are irrational things, and nothing makes us more irrational the losing those things that help us survive. We bring stories to inanimate objects. Name them. Grow a kin-ship in mind alone.

You’re not going to beat that, as it will only make for greater irrationality.

… oy, I feel a story coming on…

There have been, a lot of weapons that have been introduced into the loot pool of Destiny 2. This is the story of my FAVORITE (and irreplaceable) one. I tell this story, because it’s a Year 1 Weapon which is very likely to be made obsolete VIA light through the proposed system. That scares me. It ACTUALLY scares me. Bungie... you can have every green-brick legendary I have, but you can’t have this one. This thing is my baby and this has nothing to do with being rational.

This gun, honest to heaven, has been on my Main since Year 1 of Destiny 2. There may have been moments where I have had it switched off mistakenly through some D.I.M shenanigans, but all in all – it has been on my Main since Year 1 of Destiny 2. It’ll kick to the right sometimes, and it can burn ammo like crazy, but friends, it undeniably is my Ol’ reliable.

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It is… my Void Basilisk Shotgun
.

What can I say about this weapon?


… *sigh* …

IN LEGEND, the basilisk is the serpent king for whom only a glance would beckon instant death. So deeply venomous, that it’s very slithering “foot print” could instantly kill if touched. It’s presence so noxious an influence, that the very shrubbery and grasses around it ignite into a scorching flame. In short, to be in any proximity to a basilisk is guaranteed death.

I tell you friends, having somehow gained rapport with a Basilisk, I’ve grown to see it as a reliable brother in arms when there is a kill’n to be done- AND-DONE-QUICK! I’ve been witness first hand, up close, the range of it’s lethal tenacity. It’s vicious percussion of bites, again and again and again as if thunder was given a grudge with teeth and a smile. It is with what I have witnessed first hand, that I can tell you in truth that these legends have only been WATERED DOWN.

There are within Destiny 2, Legendary Shotguns with more Range. There are Legendary Shotguns with more Stability. A Legendary Shotgun with more Reload Speed. There are Legendary Shotguns that Handle better, with greater Inventory & Aim assist. Shotguns with better perks, be it Trench Barrel or One-Two Punch or Swashbuckler. Be it Opening Shot, or Rampage, or Full Auto Trigger.

And all of them are nothing. NOTHING! *Sigh* OHHHH the times we had!

When the chips were down, and way too many a foe felt it was a good idea to get up into my face and grill their fist with my teeth, OOOOOO BROTHER, that’s when I brought out an extra pair of teeth just for them. This Shotgun has saved my ass in the trenches more times then I’d like to admit.

You can’t duplicate that. You can’t simulate that. You can make 1000 variants, and no doubt it shall return with random rolls, but it isn’t this one shotgun.

It isn’t MY SHOTGUN. My Basilisk Shotgun.

*sniff*

;_; MY BABY! ;_;

*Ahem*… did I mention this has nothing to do with being rational?

And since there has suddenly been all this talk about "Oh hey guiez... You memba Destiny 1?"

Yeah. Yeah I do.

If you're a Level 30, you're ready to tackle Crota's End on Day One (more on that below). If you like your weapons just the way they are, you are welcome to keep them that way. You'll find that they're still enormously effective in just about any tactical scenario - even Iron Banner (more on that below).

In the months to come, your quest to become more powerful will have more avenues that lead to satisfaction. The last thing we wanted was for you to look at your favorite gun or helmet and decide that it had become obsolete. Since the reveal, we've read a lot of ideas for how this could have been done better. Your feedback is clear: The time you have invested in your stuff should be respected.

That conversation is already raging internally, as it always does. In the meantime, the existing plan is in place to make sure that, as consumers of The Dark Below start to become even legendier, those who don't opt in aren't left behind. We're making these options available to everyone, whether they own Expansion I or not.
As always, the best way to evolve your Guardian in Destiny is to tackle new challenges and earn new rewards. We're eager to see how you feel about this system once you've seen it in practice. If the past three months have proved anything, it's that anything can (and often does) change in Destiny.
You're a part of that process, so keep talking to us.

Bungie, 2014

Oh, and the name I gave my favorite weapon is Tim.

-----------------------------------

Edit: Why does formatting only work in the preview button, but not publicly. Bad. BAD!

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 15:37 (607 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Totally understand and empathize with your viewpoint. On the other hand, the sheer overwhelming amount of weapons and rolls keep me from playing the game as much. I never really found the sense in getting invested in a particular weapon when the whole point of the game is obtaining newer weapons. Staying attached to a weapon not only reduces the value of the work creating new weapons but increases the amount of work needed to keep your favorite balanced.

Attachment to loot can't exist in a game where new loot is always on the horizon. They're antithetical. Not that I put the blame on the players, just that it doesn't make sense to me.

And Borderlands can get away with it because there's no PvP. Unbalanced/OP rolls are sort of the point.

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 16:31 (607 days ago) @ EffortlessFury
edited by INSANEdrive, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 16:34

Totally understand and empathize with your viewpoint. On the other hand, the sheer overwhelming amount of weapons and rolls keep me from playing the game as much. I never really found the sense in getting invested in a particular weapon when the whole point of the game is obtaining newer weapons. Staying attached to a weapon not only reduces the value of the work creating new weapons but increases the amount of work needed to keep your favorite balanced.

Attachment to loot can't exist in a game where new loot is always on the horizon. They're antithetical. Not that I put the blame on the players, just that it doesn't make sense to me.

And Borderlands can get away with it because there's no PvP. Unbalanced/OP rolls are sort of the point.

I've faced those issue too. On the overwhelming amount of loot, I ultimately though find some of the blame for such lies in the ridiculously piss poor organizational system we have in game - for a LOOT game. Here's a rant about that, but tl;dr, right now when we get weapon we like the prospects of, but don't want to use right now, it goes in the vault - and then you forget. Using third party stuff helps, but LOOT is a core thing. There is always going to be an issue of going,"ok what do I use" from the sea of all the loot. PvP Rolls, PvE Rolls, Playstyles, Class Synergies... all sorts of things to consider (if one cares about that sort of thing). Even if we had the ability to just add notes in game, little reminders, would be a huge boon.

You'd think Dev's that use things like JIRA or Perforce or whatever they use would be in sheer pain of this lack of organizational structure in helping sort out our loot but... seven years in. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

To second point of attachment, you bring a very logical point. In a loot game, a continual progress of loot is part of the sign up. Yes agreed. Plans can be fun. But...we're irrational things, as mentioned. I didn't choose Basilisk, it choose me. It just kind of happened. This weapon for some reason just CLICKS for me. I don't know why. There has been no other weapon in D1 or D2 that has brought this... thrill to use quite like this weapon has for me. It's irrational! I don't know why! I can't tell you why! I HATE IT! I hate that I don't know! But once I found it, I liked it... I'm using it! And it works - AGAIN & AGAIN.

It's not like this is anything new, and infact I think it safe to say instinctively we all already kind of know this. Like thing. Keep thing. Use thing. Ugg. In fact it may be why Bungie fell into this position they are in now.

As a user when I'm playing I'm not thinking about their work (to a degree), I'm thinking about mine. What am I trying to do in Destiny today? What am I going to use to do it? Do I feel like running into the fray? Testing the AI at a distance? Does today need an extra helping of explosions?

It kind of sucks that in gameplay, Bungie taught the lie that everything lasts forever. It was fun.

[image]

I've not played Borderlands.

All fair points.

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 17:57 (607 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I get it, too. I miss "The Unbent Tree." :'(

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 19:11 (607 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by cheapLEY, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 19:16

I understand everything you said, and I sympathize.

Their problem is a finite system in an “everlasting” world, and our problem (the responses I’ve seen as well as my own feelings) is the EFFORT we’ve already put in under that guise of "everlasting" guarantee

I've seen this sentiment a lot in the wake of the director's cut. I understand it, but I don't feel it. It really highlights a massive disconnect in the way I play Destiny and the way seemingly everyone else does.

I have lots of weapons I love to use. I love my Bygones and my Trust. Those two stand out above all others for me, but there are other weapons I love, too. My Patron of Lost Cuases is swiftly becoming a favorite. My Spiteful Fang is a lot of fun.

On the other hand, I won't terribly miss any of those things. Bungie will take away my Bygones and probably replace it with another Pulse Rifle that feels just like it. So what's it matter?

The other part of that is the effort. It's not any effort. It's just playing a fun video game. I don't raid so I can get the gun at the end. That's part of it sure, but I raid because it's a fun challenge to overcome. I play Crucible because it's fun, not so I can get Randy's Throwing Knife. I play Gambit . . . well, probably because Malagate talked me into it again, against my better judgment.

This has been a problem in Destiny since day one. They hyped up the story that your gear will tell. That story is underwhelming and almost always boils down to "I did this one activity way too many times because the game didn't drop the thing I wanted the first ten times."

The story isn't that I raided and got Divinity. The story is when Sammy figured out how to open the door out of the first room basically immediately and made us look silly. The story is the when we "beat" the first encounter in only to die unexpectedly and immediately in the gauntlet of Cyclops. The story is the time Blackstar got miffed because someone unintentionally showed me how to skip the platform puzzle in Vault of Glass and he didn't get to see me flail through it the first time, or the time we tricked the newbie into getting launched by the plungers in King's Fall, or the time we ran as a four stack with Le Monarque in Crucible, or the all-Necrochasm raids in D1, or . . . well, you get the point. None of those stories culminate in "then I got the thing to drop" at the end. That might happen, but it's irrelevant to the story of my Guardian, and the story of me having fun with friends in Destiny.

The problem is that, even though the game is still full of those fun things, it simply will not get out of it's way long enough to let them happen. No, sorry, I can't play Crucible right now, I already did my Powerfuls and all the Bounties for the day, and I need to keep grinding out XP. It fucking sucks, it bums me out.

This is a tangent now, but I'm really apprehensive about Trials. I want to play Trials really bad. I missed it in D1--I just didn't play Crucible then. I love Crucible in D2. It's a blast. I loved playing Comp when I was trying to get Luna's and Recluse. I am eager for Trials and can't wait to play. I am also dreading what it's going to be like three weeks after Trials launches. How much extra time am I going to have to spend grinding bullshit so that I can even be at a competitive power level? Just thinking about it makes me consider saying fuck it and writing it off. The game just wont' get out of it's own way and let people play what they want to play and how they want to play. It's really frustrating for me. The game is so, so good, but it's like it's afraid to try and just stand on its own merits, like it thinks I'll get bored if its not dangling a higher number to chase in front of me. The good parts of the game are good enough to put up with jumping through it's hoops, but only barely.

Or...like me...you never end up playing Raids/etc. at all...

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, February 27, 2020, 19:25 (607 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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that feel when this game still hates its solo playerbase

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Monday, March 02, 2020, 09:45 (603 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 13:30 (604 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Read cheapLEY's post folks!

...

...

...

... YEAH!

Yeah.

YE-EAH!

Yah.

YEEEEEEEEEEEEE... ok that's enough. :P

So... yeah (:P), I agree. Alot. Kick back to my first half where I'm talkin' about "aspiration is NOT what keeps our game alive". I all-in-all totally freek'n agree man. After reading your thoughts though, I feel like I should clarify about more on... "EFFORT".

Has anyone here had an assignment in their school days, or assigned something at work, where you put in alot of time in only for it to be canceled, changed, or dropped at the last minute? Where you were told it was "SUPER IMPORTANT" and that this thing has to be done ASAP...and then... oops silly us. Nevermind.

It sucks and situation depending, it can feel rather insulting. This isn't a 1-to-1 comparison though. Just keep it in mind as such an experience is a factor I have bouncing around at the back of me head while writing this.

Would it suck that I can no longer use my Masterworked Outlaw/Kill Clip Bygones? Eh. If I hadn't of Masterworked it, used up those resources, put time in during a free weekend to make builds off D.I.M involving it, then maybe not as much. Bygones has many ways to drop, and even if part of the "old weapons are no longer infuseable" idea includes removing the numerous sources where you can get Bygones, it's more... mildly annoying. After all, as Effortless Fury has mentioned (in a way), it's kind of... part of the "contract" of playing a "loot" game. The meta rises and falls with each loot refresh. Except for Travelers Judgement Sidearm... that sucker has ALWAYS been good, it just got missed before. The static roll with Head Seeker might have not have been meta, but it still packed a royal punch. Eh... I digress.

So... what about Redrix's Claymore? Or Mountaintop? Mindbenders? Spare Rations? Or really any sort of legendary where there were Objective Steps or RNG to overcome for the end result? Is it LITERALLY effort? I suppose that all depends on the player. I think it's safe to say some people -apparently Luke at least- are chase'n the loot. That effort of get the things is fun for some. For me, I just want to augment my play. I could care less about the loot, and care more about what the loot does. What abilities does it afford me to play with in this world? It all depends on what I want to play with that day. In the end it's all about how a person plays this game for their fun.

In either case, and undoubtedly some I've not mentioned, what you choose to play with effects your fun. Ya gotta get the thing to use the thing. Otherwise, why even bother using anything other than Traveler's Chosen (Damaged), Stubborn Oak, Headstrong, Pariah, Lost and Found, and Thistle and Yew (all of which are Basic Rarity Weapons). It's the perks, its the abilities, and it how this game moves and feels like nothing else on the market. A Gold Standard.

Before this announcement, that time for the +1 feel for the "RIGHT ROLL" for whatever weapon (or to even get your hands ON a weapon) was well spent because once it was yours, it was yours. Yet another build option in a smorgasbord of options. Now, with retrospect of the proposed announcement, was it time well spent? I guess it still is, fun was had, but if -thought experiment- you knew such a Objective Steps or RNG Earned weapon was going to be gone weather you got it or not in X amount of weeks/months... lets say per season... would that behavior change? I personally think it does, I think that changes the calculus heavily, the conclusion of which is per person.

And, AND!... depending on implementation... FOMO of not getting a chance of get ones hands on a really cool weapon! YA CAN'T WIN LUKE! BAW-HAHAHA! ;P

If we were in Year 2 of Destiny 2, then fine. They gotta do what they gotta do. YEAR 4! Man... that's rough. That's potentially a bloody massacre for a fair amount of Destiny players. The older a Destiny player you are, the greater this change potentially hurts. Guns (and their perks) are the true currency of Destiny as it is, and they are changing the value of Time Vs Effort for that currency. It's not even like Bonds where you hold 'em for a time and you get a return it's just... YEET!

Well, unless you just said F it and sharded your entire vault, like you have cheapLEY.

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You may be the smartest of us all with that move cheapLEY.

Just to point out...

by Claude Errera @, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 17:16 (604 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

All this talk about "I worked hard to get X/Y/Z roll on my favorite gun, and now Bungie says I won't be able to use it!"

We need to remember the context. They won't be taking the guns away, they'll simply be limiting your abillty to infuse them 9-15 months after you get them.

1) That's irrelevant for any non-power-enabled activities. Wanna use that godroll Bygones in Quickplay? It'll be as good at the end of year 4 as it is right now.

2) Even for power-enabled activities, you're still looking a year out. Are you using the same weapons right now that you used a year ago? Have you really not received any weapons in the last year that became important in your rotation because they're fun, or good, or whatever? Do you really believe that this pattern will break, going forward (that is, that you'll never again get a gun you enjoy using, rendering your entire collection useless because you can't use old stuff and you don't like new stuff)?

Yes, there are guns from more than a year ago that I still play with regularly. But if you took them all away from me, I'd STILL have a ton of stuff I enjoy using, because they keep adding new, fun weapons. Some of you might have used Traveler's Judgement 5 for the full 20 months it's been available; I certainly GOT one a long time ago. (I finished all of the Prophecy weapons within a month or two of Warmind dropping.) But I didn't start using it until the buzz started recently - it was well after the Tower Obelisk was built. (I think I got my first one a week or two ago.) It is now my go-to Crucible energy weapon, replacing both Recluse and Jotunn for most games.

I guess all I'm trying to say is that while it's annoying (personally, to me, and clearly generally, to many people) that I might lose access to something I really enjoy sometime in the future... it's not the end of the world. The Ikelos shotgun was a must-have for Gambit... until it wasn't. (So was Sleeper. Until it wasn't.) This is just a new way to make sure that the loot pool continues to swirl... and in the long run, it's not any worse than all of the other ways they've done that in the past.

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Look at this guy. Being all reasonable and such. Disgusting.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 17:56 (604 days ago) @ Claude Errera

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Just to point out...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 18:55 (604 days ago) @ Claude Errera

But you know psychologically it hurts more to say "You can't bring these things forward" over "You can bring these forward, but you probably won't use them because other things will end up being more fun". The best solution is enabling you to keep using your old weapons, but making it so you don't want to.

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Just to point out...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Sunday, March 01, 2020, 19:53 (604 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The Ikelos shotgun was a must-have for Gambit... until it wasn't.

Surreptitiously hides my Y1S01 Zenith of Your Kind from the Gambit Nerf Overlords*...

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

*Seriously, though, Zenith with the Reaper+6 effect got me a Python within 2 days :p

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#KermitWasRight

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 21:35 (603 days ago) @ ZackDark

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight

Static Rolls were such a good step

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, March 02, 2020, 00:56 (603 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Honestly, I liked double primary too but I know that's a hot take.

What's the deal with the streamers? Were they the ones crying out for randomness?

Static Rolls were such a good step

by Claude Errera @, Monday, March 02, 2020, 06:51 (603 days ago) @ someotherguy

Honestly, I liked double primary too but I know that's a hot take.

What's the deal with the streamers? Were they the ones crying out for randomness?

I think what it came down to was that streamers (who play pretty much full-time, because it's their job) started to complain about static rolls, because at some point they had EVERYTHING, so loot became boring. Oh, look, another Elatha. I don't even have to look at it, I already have one, it's shards.

Adding random rolls back in actually gave them a reason to look at whatever drop they just got.

The general problem (play enough and you get everything, making the 'getting' boring) was true for everyone, it just got encountered first by streamers, since they played the most, and then publicized, since that's what they do.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, March 02, 2020, 09:54 (603 days ago) @ Claude Errera

But I realise I'm probably in the minority.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me

by Claude Errera @, Monday, March 02, 2020, 10:22 (603 days ago) @ someotherguy

But I realise I'm probably in the minority.

It's a problem if your goal is to keep people playing. Cody would tell you that not only isn't it a problem, it's a feature; it HELPS people to put the game down when they're 'done'.

Bungie, on the other hand, wants a playerbase that sticks around, because 1) that means more people buying stuff (obvs) and 2) it means a bigger pool of players, keeping group activities fresher.

Whether it's a problem or not depends on your point of view (and what you hope to get out of the game). Personally, I like it when the pool is big; I can enjoy the game modes I want to enjoy, when I want to enjoy them. So I'm all for features that keep people coming back, regardless of whether I'm using them personally or not.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me

by TheOmegaClown, Tuesday, March 03, 2020, 05:49 (602 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm a pretty casual player and even I got bored with static rolls. Getting a great roll on a gun I never used to use was a dopamine double whammy - I got a cool reward, and I was more likely to experiment with something new.

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Doesn't seem like a problem to me

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 07:02 (601 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

But there are thousands more rolls I'll never try now than when static rolls were a thing and only about dozens more I want to try.

I'm sure Bungie is more than capable of curating dozen of cool rolls in all this time. In fact, they have with the actually-called curated rolls.

Doesn't seem like a problem to me

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 09:12 (601 days ago) @ ZackDark

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.

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That's the main issue for me

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 09:54 (601 days ago) @ someotherguy

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.

I'd like some examples of weapons where there are multiple viable rolls.

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That's the main issue for me

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 10:44 (601 days ago) @ kidtsunami

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.


I'd like some examples of weapons where there are multiple viable rolls.

Literally any weapon in the game with any roll.

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Viable was a poor word choice

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 12:02 (601 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.


I'd like some examples of weapons where there are multiple viable rolls.


Literally any weapon in the game with any roll.

Competitive, but I take it you'll have the same response

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Viable was a poor word choice

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 13:49 (601 days ago) @ kidtsunami

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.


I'd like some examples of weapons where there are multiple viable rolls.


Literally any weapon in the game with any roll.


Competitive, but I take it you'll have the same response

Mostly, yeah. I think there are obvious good rolls and bad rolls, but I don’t even the best roll on any given weapon is going to compensate for a skill deficit.

I doubt that someone with the perfect Bygones is going to perform better than me with my crappy roll Bygones in Crucible if we’re of equal skill. They might get an extra kill here or there, and I don’t want to undersell their benefit of that. Maybe I’m totally wrong on that, it’s not like I’ve conducted a study. My general experience is that it doesn’t matter much beyond preference.

Explosive Payload might be one exception that. I can definitely tell when I’m getting hit by something with Explosive Payload, and I know it’s lost me firefights (and won me just as many after I got my Trust with it). Even that is situational, though, and most perks are even more so.

Like I said, maybe I’m way off base here. I don’t spend a whole lot of toke analyzing rolls. I know there perks I like, but I don’t have the desire to really dig into all the barrel and sight modifiers and how they affect every weapon. Do I want Range or Stability? I mostly can’t talk the difference.

Viable was a poor word choice

by TheOmegaClown, Saturday, March 07, 2020, 06:39 (598 days ago) @ kidtsunami

I'm mostly a pve player, but I have multiple rolls of the same gun depending on how I want to play, or the situation. Varying combinations of demolitionist, dragonfly, outlaw, rampage, multikillclip, osmosis, etc. New perks that came out with shadowkeep have been fun.

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Viable was a poor word choice

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, March 07, 2020, 07:11 (598 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

That I can agree with. The new perks are the direction I’ve wanted for a long tine. They don’t make guns “better,” just more interesting. I love Osmosis.

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Viable was a poor word choice

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, March 07, 2020, 10:31 (598 days ago) @ cheapLEY

That I can agree with. The new perks are the direction I’ve wanted for a long tine. They don’t make guns “better,” just more interesting. I love Osmosis.

Agreed. Remember like a million years ago (somewhere around the release of Taken King, I believe) when Luke Smith said something in a blog post or an interview about refocusing the power climb “outwards” rather than “upwards”? The gist was that they wanted to expand the breadth of our gear and abilities, rather than putting all the emphasis on getting more and more of the same gear with slightly higher numbers. I always liked that philosophy, and when they do expand our abilities in that way, I think the game gets better.

Viable was a poor word choice

by TheOmegaClown, Sunday, March 08, 2020, 17:59 (597 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I was literally cackling with glee the first time I used my demolitionist/ osmosis breachlight on my nezerac / devour build. Handing out grenades like oprah.

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This was also me. It's soooooo good. :)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, March 08, 2020, 18:04 (597 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

- No text -

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Steelfeather Repeater. More so with SotWorthy AR Buffs.

by Harmanimus @, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 16:16 (601 days ago) @ kidtsunami

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That stability though :(

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 01:21 (600 days ago) @ Harmanimus

- No text -

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That stability though :(

by Harmanimus @, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 12:36 (600 days ago) @ someotherguy

First Caveat: I play on PC, so I can’t judge how the stability is on consoles. Second Caveat: it can roll Firmly Planted. There are quite a few rolls with or without Firmly Planted that are worthwhile. The worst part is it has barrels over sights, but otherwise there are a bunch of solid combos.

That stability though :(

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 13:08 (600 days ago) @ Harmanimus

Truthfully it's not the stability that kills it on console so much as the horizontal recoil.

Firmly planted is almost a must (for me), which is a shame.

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That's the main issue for me

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 17:44 (600 days ago) @ kidtsunami

Yeah, 99% of weapons now are insta-shard. Random rolls woth clear Best-in-Slot perks just seems like Static Rolls with extra steps.


I'd like some examples of weapons where there are multiple viable rolls.

There are plenty. If nothing else, it’s easy to come up with ideal PvE rolls that differ drastically from ideal PvP rolls. I have a PvE Trust with Firefly and Rampage, and one with Rapid Hit/Snapshot for PvP. But even in more subtle situations, different rolls can be viable in different ways. I have a Redrix Broadsword that’s maxed towards stability, and another one speced for range, and I swap back and forth depending on the map. And then there’s the issue of sandbox changes. Before Shadowkeep, my max-range Austringer was my favourite roll of that gun, while now I prefer my max stability version.

Some weapons are just generally a bit lacklustre, and it takes a certain roll to make it good. Other weapons start from a good place, and have room to be specialized in different ways with different perks.

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Cool, thanks for the examples!

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, March 06, 2020, 13:12 (599 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

- No text -

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Static Roll caveat re: Y1

by Harmanimus @, Tuesday, March 03, 2020, 01:47 (602 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I would like to point out that there were many people (not limited to streamers/content creators) bored with the weapons available in game in Vanilla well before anyone had complete collections. It was a problem built into the dialing back and streamlining they did moving to D2 from Rise of Iron. The static rolls weren’t interesting because the way they were made was uninteresting; rather than getting repeat drops. A couple sights/barrels and magazine/ammo perks with a single Trait was never going to be interesting for very long.

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#KermitWasRight

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 02, 2020, 07:23 (603 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight

Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.

#KermitWasRight

by Claude Errera @, Monday, March 02, 2020, 07:44 (603 days ago) @ Cody Miller

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight


Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.

And the problem that random rolls solved would still be a problem, if they'd listened to you.

#kermitandcodyareoftenrightbutmaybenotinthiscase

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#KermitWasRight

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 02, 2020, 12:17 (603 days ago) @ Claude Errera

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight


Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.


And the problem that random rolls solved would still be a problem, if they'd listened to you.

#kermitandcodyareoftenrightbutmaybenotinthiscase

For me it's just I hated the perk-comparison mini-game because it was inordinately time-consuming (I've never held that stuff in my head very well), and I have less time than ever (that I'm willing) to play. I never realized how much I hated it until we had static roles.

Fortunately, D2 seems to have a greater variety of options occupying lanes, so I've survived without needing to obsess.

I have nothing against anybody who enjoy this kind of complexity. It's not my thing. I stopped playing Division once it felt like crafting was required to keep up.

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You're right.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, March 02, 2020, 15:12 (603 days ago) @ Kermit

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight


Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.


And the problem that random rolls solved would still be a problem, if they'd listened to you.

#kermitandcodyareoftenrightbutmaybenotinthiscase


For me it's just I hated the perk-comparison mini-game because it was inordinately time-consuming (I've never held that stuff in my head very well), and I have less time than ever (that I'm willing) to play. I never realized how much I hated it until we had static roles.

Fortunately, D2 seems to have a greater variety of options occupying lanes, so I've survived without needing to obsess.

I have nothing against anybody who enjoy this kind of complexity. It's not my thing. I stopped playing Division once it felt like crafting was required to keep up.

I hope you don't mind me invoking your name through them their rainbow connections Kerm. I came across your post when I was double checking for... something (I recall not what), and found it at the time apt in relation to ZackDarks post. To look forward, you have to look back. Learn from that "History" thing, if you can. It's a marker of how much time has passed and the result of the choices made. The title was just me being glib between the source and one of the "memes" of this site.

That said, your reasons stated are mostly my reasons as well.

I personally liked static rolls because, as I've espoused, it made things SUPER EASY to organize, even in this current system where, if you aren't using a 3rd party application - heavens help you. Every roll had a name. If you had a duplicate, it was easy to see IN VAULT. No app required. When you got hit with something hard, and you saw the name of the weapon on the other end of PvP, you knew exactly what hit you.

But, to swing this back around to the source of this topics turn, has "Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls"? Plausibly. Though I think this has more to do with things like Pinnacle Weapons effects on our end, and Development stuffs on their end. The ultimate fear I gather is power creep and an unmanageable back end.

It's all a numbers game, with many moving parts. I hope they're pull'n the right threads. I don't know. As it stands, I'm just a player spit'n thoughts.

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You're right.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 02, 2020, 15:21 (603 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight


Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.


And the problem that random rolls solved would still be a problem, if they'd listened to you.

#kermitandcodyareoftenrightbutmaybenotinthiscase


For me it's just I hated the perk-comparison mini-game because it was inordinately time-consuming (I've never held that stuff in my head very well), and I have less time than ever (that I'm willing) to play. I never realized how much I hated it until we had static roles.

Fortunately, D2 seems to have a greater variety of options occupying lanes, so I've survived without needing to obsess.

I have nothing against anybody who enjoy this kind of complexity. It's not my thing. I stopped playing Division once it felt like crafting was required to keep up.


I hope you don't mind me invoking your name through them their rainbow connections Kerm. I came across your post when I was double checking for... something (I recall not what), and found it at the time apt in relation to ZackDarks post. To look forward, you have to look back. Learn from that "History" thing, if you can. It's a marker of how much time has passed and the result of the choices made. The title was just me being glib between the source and one of the "memes" of this site.

That said, your reasons stated are mostly my reasons as well.

I personally liked static rolls because, as I've espoused, it made things SUPER EASY to organize, even in this current system where, if you aren't using a 3rd party application - heavens help you. Every roll had a name. If you had a duplicate, it was easy to see IN VAULT. No app required. When you got hit with something hard, and you saw the name of the weapon on the other end of PvP, you knew exactly what hit you.

But, to swing this back around to the source of this topics turn, has "Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls"? Plausibly. Though I think this has more to do with things like Pinnacle Weapons effects on our end, and Development stuffs on their end. The ultimate fear I gather is power creep and an unmanageable back end.

It's all a numbers game, with many moving parts. I hope they're pull'n the right threads. I don't know. As it stands, I'm just a player spit'n thoughts.

You're fine, bud. I liked the call back. D2 has finally broken me. There's so much I haven't done, and some things I now can't do. I'm glad I get a play once or twice a week, and I appreciate patient people here who are willing to answer the same questions I ask over and over. The completionist impulse finally died. Not Bungie's fault. External factors in my life have played a big role. I know you took a break a while back, so you probably can relate.

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Cool.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, March 02, 2020, 16:22 (603 days ago) @ Kermit

You're fine, bud. I liked the call back. D2 has finally broken me. There's so much I haven't done, and some things I now can't do. I'm glad I get a play once or twice a week, and I appreciate patient people here who are willing to answer the same questions I ask over and over. The completionist impulse finally died. Not Bungie's fault. External factors in my life have played a big role. I know you took a break a while back, so you probably can relate.

Yep. End of Dec 2018 to June 2019. If anything will kick your butt out of Destiny in a hurry, it's that real life stuff. It's simply a matter of time. Completely missed Season of the Drifter, which was around this time last year. Still haven't fingered out that whole "reckoning" thing yet (need to get the mote collecty thingy). Only just literately yesterday got RECLUSE (and Mountaintop).

Be well.

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You're right.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 02, 2020, 16:25 (603 days ago) @ Kermit

External factors in my life have played a big role.

You mean Death Stranding? :-p

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You're right.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, March 04, 2020, 05:23 (601 days ago) @ Cody Miller

External factors in my life have played a big role.


You mean Death Stranding? :-p

I enjoyed the bit I played. Would like to get back to that.

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You're right.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, March 02, 2020, 15:35 (603 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I like random rolls. It’s just another fun aspect of the game, it adds a little variety that I enjoy.

I also think many people worry too much about rolls. Every version of any particular weapon has a base level of effectiveness. I’ve never really seen a perk combination determine whether a weapon is “good.” It allows you to build around preferences. Sure this like kill clip, rapid hit, outlaw, etc, can modify weapons in such a way that they sort of become the go-to perk combos, but I have over a thousand crucible kills on my crappy roll Bygones. It’s nearly as good as any other perk combo Bygones because the base weapon is still the same.

It can be a double edge sword though, because it does mean there will be a roll that is considered the “best” in terms of raw damage, but those are all so situational, and I maintain that Destiny just isn’t challenging enough to make any of those perks become absolutely necessary. It’s just flavor, and I think that’s an alright place to be.

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You're right.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, March 02, 2020, 16:00 (603 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I like random rolls. It’s just another fun aspect of the game, it adds a little variety that I enjoy.

I also think many people worry too much about rolls. Every version of any particular weapon has a base level of effectiveness. I’ve never really seen a perk combination determine whether a weapon is “good.” It allows you to build around preferences. Sure this like kill clip, rapid hit, outlaw, etc, can modify weapons in such a way that they sort of become the go-to perk combos, but I have over a thousand crucible kills on my crappy roll Bygones. It’s nearly as good as any other perk combo Bygones because the base weapon is still the same.

It can be a double edge sword though, because it does mean there will be a roll that is considered the “best” in terms of raw damage, but those are all so situational, and I maintain that Destiny just isn’t challenging enough to make any of those perks become absolutely necessary. It’s just flavor, and I think that’s an alright place to be.

Yeah, this is what I meant by "a greater variety of options occupying lanes" than in D1. I don't pay super-close attention any more, and it hasn't seemed to hurt me too much. (Some on my fireteams may have a different opinion.)

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#KermitWasRight

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, March 02, 2020, 16:20 (603 days ago) @ Claude Errera

That's a pretty good point, though artificially making me let go of old weapons sounds weird. I think Bungie backed itself in this corner by implementing random rolls. If everything were curated, "sweet-talking" you into using new weapons wouldn't be a problem at all.

Yes, I'm still sore the streamers got that ball rolling. Goddamn streamers...

#KermitWasRight


Uh, #cody was saying this over 6 years ago.


And the problem that random rolls solved would still be a problem, if they'd listened to you.

#kermitandcodyareoftenrightbutmaybenotinthiscase

Naw man Destiny wouldn’t even BE about loot if they listened to me :-p

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Dues Ex: Vanquish is You - Strange Edition

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Monday, March 02, 2020, 16:25 (603 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Just to point out...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 17:21 (600 days ago) @ Claude Errera
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 17:32

All this talk about "I worked hard to get X/Y/Z roll on my favorite gun, and now Bungie says I won't be able to use it!"

We need to remember the context. They won't be taking the guns away, they'll simply be limiting your abillty to infuse them 9-15 months after you get them.

Usefulness matters. Despite the size of our vaults, many of us are running short on free space. When we’re forced to choose between keeping weaponry that we can use in ALL activities, vs weaponry that we can only use in *some* of the game, it’s obvious which gear will get trashed first.

I recently jumped back into D1 for the first time since D2 launched. I was feeling nostalgic, and was looking forward to equipping a bunch of my favourite D1 gear and jumping into the crucible. When I opened my D1 vault, I was sadly surprised to (re)discover that much of my favourite gear was no longer there, because I’d trashed it after they’d been “left behind” with the power jump in Taken King. All my year 1 Trials and Iron Banner armour, a bunch of Trials Adept weapons... all gone. I was so disappointed that I just shut the game off. More on D1 in a bit.


1) That's irrelevant for any non-power-enabled activities. Wanna use that godroll Bygones in Quickplay? It'll be as good at the end of year 4 as it is right now.

This is clearly one of those YMMV situations, but personally speaking, just about everything I do in Destiny is power enabled activities. The lone exception to that is quickplay crucible, but that’s a separate can of worms that I’ll get into below.


2) Even for power-enabled activities, you're still looking a year out. Are you using the same weapons right now that you used a year ago? Have you really not received any weapons in the last year that became important in your rotation because they're fun, or good, or whatever? Do you really believe that this pattern will break, going forward (that is, that you'll never again get a gun you enjoy using, rendering your entire collection useless because you can't use old stuff and you don't like new stuff)?

Yes, I still use the same weapons that I used a year ago. And I use new weapons as well. A vast, diverse range of effective weapons is what gives Destiny its replayability. Experimenting with various loadout combinations, maximizing build efficiency... that’s basically the entire game for me. That’s what makes running nightfalls and dungeons and raids continuously fun for me.


Yes, there are guns from more than a year ago that I still play with regularly. But if you took them all away from me, I'd STILL have a ton of stuff I enjoy using, because they keep adding new, fun weapons. Some of you might have used Traveler's Judgement 5 for the full 20 months it's been available; I certainly GOT one a long time ago. (I finished all of the Prophecy weapons within a month or two of Warmind dropping.) But I didn't start using it until the buzz started recently - it was well after the Tower Obelisk was built. (I think I got my first one a week or two ago.) It is now my go-to Crucible energy weapon, replacing both Recluse and Jotunn for most games.

I agree that they keep adding fun new weapons, but to me that just proves that retiring old weapons is fully unnecessary. No, I’m not going to be excited to use any old hand cannon that they add into the game at this point. It has to look great, feel great, and ideally have something unique about it that sets it apart from the pack. It doesn’t need to be better than the stuff I already have. Just different. But that takes work. And this is where I think Bungie’s TRUE motivations kick in...

I guess all I'm trying to say is that while it's annoying (personally, to me, and clearly generally, to many people) that I might lose access to something I really enjoy sometime in the future... it's not the end of the world. The Ikelos shotgun was a must-have for Gambit... until it wasn't. (So was Sleeper. Until it wasn't.) This is just a new way to make sure that the loot pool continues to swirl... and in the long run, it's not any worse than all of the other ways they've done that in the past.

All due respect, but IKELOS is a bit of a straw man argument in this situation. IKELOS came out at a point when there were really no other effective shotguns that weren’t exotics. Part of the reason it was so commonly used is it had virtually no competition. It’s still one of the best PvE shotguns in the game, and I still use it frequently... it just isn’t the only tool for the job anymore, and that’s great. Bungie introduced a wider range of choice into the game for us. Now, they’re effectively doing the opposite.

Speaking frankly, I have a HUGE problem with this decision to retire weapons. I’m going to see how it plays out, but it could very easily be a dealbreaker that makes me put the franchise down for good. It’s not just a concern over theoreticals... we’ve been through this before, and we know how Bungie handled it in the past.

When the D1Y1 weapons were “retired”, they weren’t replaced by a new wave of equally awesome and fun and exciting gear. Most of the D1Y1 gear was replaced by weapons of the same archetypes, with similar specs, and a similar selection of perks, but rarely quite as effective as their predecessors. And we got NOTHING on the level of Fatebringer, Black Hammer, Gjallarhorn, or any of the Other Y1 favorites. It’s not the first thing that comes to mind when we think of Taken King, because so much of the game improved so drastically at that point. But the gear situation sucked. After all the time I’d spent tediously grinding weapons that made the game fun, all the fun toys were effectively removed (yes, still available for low-level activities, but again, I almost never played low-level activities). But none of this served to give Bungie the freedom to go wild with a new set of crazy weapons. What they effectively did is made us re-grind to re-acquire “new” gear that was mostly just the same stuff we’d been using before with new names on them. And in hindsight, it really REALLY hurt D1 overall. I would have enjoyed so much of my time with that game so much more if I’d been able to use my year 1 favourites alongside the year 2 & 3 additions that I enjoyed as I played through all that year 2 & 3 content.

Jumping back to the current D2 situation.

As you and I both agree, Bungie is still releasing new weapons that are exciting and worth using, without making them more powerful than older gear. So really, the whole premise that Luke used to justify this move rings false to me. Getting us excited over new gear is not a problem. I believe that the problem Bungie is actually trying to address is “how do we release yet another 140rpm hand cannon that can roll with outlaw/rampage, and get players excited about it?”. IMO, this has nothing to do with truly NEW gear, and everything to do with releasing more of the same stuff that’s already in the game and making it “matter” again. And for anyone who thinks I’m being overly cynical, I’m only saying this because that is precisely what happened in D1.

“Ok, but you can still use all your old stuff in Quickplay” you might be saying. This is true. And I’m sure some people will continue to use old weapons now and then, there’s the issue I described above around storage space constraints. D2 has already hit a version of this thanks to Armor 2.0, and it sucks. I just had to go and delete most of my Year 1&2 armor because I needed the room, and even though I like most of that armor way more than any of the 2.0 sets that I have, it all got so badly neutered in the transition that I can’t justify letting it fill up my vault. Yet, as frustrating as that is, it still isn’t as bad as weapon retirement because at least I technically CAN use old armor in current end game activities.

There is 1 further issue on my mind that really bothers me about all this, and it related directly to both the crucible and the current armor/build craft situation:

Since the introduction of Armor 2.0, I have been slowly grinding away at perfecting 1 single set of crucible armor for my Hunter. It’s such a brutally slow process that I haven’t bothered trying to do it on my other characters yet. This specific set that I’m customizing is 100% built around using Not Forgotten and Mountaintop. For over 5 months, I’ve been using every crucible token I have to buy drops from Shax, hoping to get armor with decent stat rolls (which we all know is EXTREMELY rare for regular world drops). As I slowly get pieces that I like, I pour boatloads of materials into upgrading it and eventually masterworking it. I finally now have a full set of masterworked armor with the mods that I want, all tailored around those 2 weapons. Not “any hand cannon” and “any grenade launcher”, those 2 EXACT weapons. I don’t like any other hand cannons as much as Not Forgotten (note that NF isn’t even “the best” hand cannon anymore, by a large margin... but it’s my favourite), and if I can’t use NF, I’m going to use a totally different loadout, which negates the insane amount of time I’ve sunk into building this armor set. Not to mention the year it took me to finally get Not Forgotten, plus the 2 painful months it took to get Mountaintop before they made the quest easier.

Here’s the thing when it comes to crucible: my crucible gear is my crucible gear. I don’t want to sink all this time into creating optimized armor builds, and then not be able to use those builds in Iron Banner, or especially in Trials. And whatever gear I’m taking into Trials, I also want to be able to use it in high level comp and/or quickplay. I want to use that stuff as often and frequently as possible, so that I can really perfect my skills with them. I even take my Hunter’s crucible gear into high level PvE, just so that the whole loadout becomes ultra familiar to me (the feel of using boots with traction, the exact recharge rate of my abilities, every nuance of that exact build). This is how I like to play the game, and Bungie CLAIMS that they’re all about letting us craft our own perfect guardians. If that kind of long-term build crafting is supposed to be a pillar of Destiny’s endgame, then weapon retirement runs directly counter to that.

I’ll end by saying that I think it’s totally possible that Bungie really thinks this will help the game... but for that to be true, they must have a vastly different idea of what makes this game enjoyable from what I enjoy about it. For me, acquiring weapons is, at first, 100% a tedious chore. Most of the gear in Destiny is dull and mediocre. But as we acquire weapons that are fun and exciting, the combat transforms and becomes excellent. As I build a larger collection of fun gear, the process of grinding for new stuff becomes more fun, because the moment to moment combat is great and constantly changing (as I mess around with different loadouts). The way Luke talks about chasing new weapons makes me think that he thinks that chasing new gear is inherently fun. For me, that has never been the case. That initial, tedious grind is the investment which pays off when I get to USE the weapons I’ve acquired. USING great weapons is what makes Destiny fun for me, not CHASING them.

I’m not saying that I want to use the same few weapons forever. Far from it. I love mixing things up. But when I do so, I want it to be MY choice. Either because something new comes along that grabs my attention, or because I want to find a new solution to a gameplay challenge in front of me. I don’t want to have my favourite parts of the game ripped out of my hands. For me, there’s no question about it: the weapons make Destiny. I’d miss Mountaintop more than I’d miss any raid or strike or Dungeon. D1 never felt the same without Fatebringer or my other Y1 favourites (to the point where I still miss them even in D2), and Bungie is now talking about retiring 3 years worth of weapons. If they really do come out with a whole array of truly exciting new weapons, that’ll soften the blow. But it still wouldn’t make weapon retirement necessary, nor do I think that’ll even happen. Mark my words, some time next year we’ll all be grinding for a “new” 140rpm hand cannon called “Balstringer” because it has great range and can roll with kill clip/outlaw.

ps

For anyone who doesn’t mind ditching all their old stuff and exclusively using new stuff, you could always go ahead and do that at any time. You don’t need Bungie to force it on us.
Just my 2 cents :)

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Just to point out...

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 17:59 (600 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Good post, good points, and something I had not considered. Building an armor set around specific weapons is something that didn’t even cross my mind, mostly because it’s so fucking tedious that I haven’t even considered attempting it, even with weapons that would always be relevant.

I’m glad you’re still around, though! Haven’t seen you in a bit.

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Can I get an AMEN!

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Thursday, March 05, 2020, 18:27 (600 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Solid post. Based on the latest BUP-DATE, this change to infusing light on old weapons is already in the pipe. Quoting the top section under "Power Gains"...

We’re looking to present an element of gear progression available each Season, as well as prepare underlying systems for future updates like the forthcoming one for Legendary weapons mentioned by Luke Smith in the Director’s Cut ‘Weapons Forever’ section.

Underline is my edit.

As a fellow build maker, I feel ya man. Though, I'm making builds more based on archetypes, not EXACT weaponry. Turns out, this change may be hurting you even more then it hurts me, so let's enjoy our status quo while we can. Wave to that sunset.

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[The Problem of] Weapons Forever: The Problem

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 19:20 (604 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Well, unless you just said F it and sharded your entire vault, like you have cheapLEY.

[image]

You may be the smartest of us all with that move cheapLEY.

I’ve actually done that many times. I got rid of lots of great gear because I was just too lazy to sort through it all. I accidentally deleted my Armor 1.0 Crucible set, which I sorely regret, as it was loaded with class mods for dodge central. I haven’t found a super effective way to even get close to the dodge regeneration speed I had on that set, and I sorely missed it earlier tonight.

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Your last paragraph is the core problem of this game series

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Sunday, March 01, 2020, 14:41 (604 days ago) @ cheapLEY

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