Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness (Destiny)

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 12:44 (64 days ago)

I haven't logged into Destiny 2 in quite a few months. I've meant to a few times but honestly just the prospect of waiting over 5 minutes is putting me off it, plus waiting between activities and a lack of momentum. How's the playerbase now, and what can I do if I only have the DLC up through Forsaken? Also are links broken or something or is the front page dead?
Side note on DLC: Bungie, I've given up buying Destiny DLC as it comes out. Even as I finally have money to buy all the content I want, I lack the time and energy to play it. Even if I did have that, it's rarely worth the cost, probably the only Destiny DLC that was actually worth it was Taken King (disclaimer: I haven't actually played Forsaken yet, I was looking forward to it as well as Shadowkeep). I'm not going to pay for an annual pass either because of time but also I just don't like that business model, so I won't support it. If you committed to one high-quality expansive DLC per year at no more than $40 (preferably no more than $30), I'd buy the shit out of that.
Side note on time: I recently got Overwatch and I love it. I hope you (Bungie) learned some things when you were cozy with Blizzard, because it's very quick to load the game, match times are generally better than Destiny or Halo, and being able to jump into a little "who cares" game immediately while waiting for the actual game I want is just a godsend. You can one-up them by always having FFA and Mayhem available. If that sounds too boring you can switch out the gametypes, have FFA deathmatch or the one where you pick up crests, have Mayhem deathmatch or Mayhem Control, etc. Also you had better bring back oddball, if you haven't already.
(no this isn't a joke, kinda disappointed there's no April Fool's stuff here)

Avatar

GV! [waves]

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 13:49 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness

There is life after Destiny. There is life without Destiny. Good to see your name pop up.

Avatar

GV! [waves]

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 15:11 (64 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by General Vagueness, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 15:15

There is life after Destiny. There is life without Destiny. Good to see your name pop up.

Hey. If you're talking like that and if there are so few replies it sounds like the community is gone or at least this arm of it. That's sad but not unexpected. You should hit me up on Facebook or something. I watched Le Jetee, it wasn't bad, it's your turn to watch the 12 Monkeys TV series- you won't regret it.

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 13:59 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness
edited by Korny, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 14:13

I haven't logged into Destiny 2 in quite a few months. I've meant to a few times but honestly just the prospect of waiting over 5 minutes is putting me off it, plus waiting between activities and a lack of momentum. How's the playerbase now, and what can I do if I only have the DLC up through Forsaken?

You can do a lot, but also, it'll be hard to track what you can't do. The game as it was through Year 2 has been chopped up into disparate pieces blended together in a soup of quests and bounties. Many of which you can do, but also many which will be locked behind Expansion or seasonal requirements, and some that you might buy, but never get to, because they will be removed once the season is over, although you may be able to start them without buying the season pass. I know this sounds like an Insanedrive post, but that's the clearest way to describe it.

Also are links broken or something or is the front page dead?

Lol no, it's not dead. I monitor it closely, ensuring it stays... dormant.

Side note on DLC: Bungie, I've given up buying Destiny DLC as it comes out. Even as I finally have money to buy all the content I want, I lack the time and energy to play it. Even if I did have that, it's rarely worth the cost, probably the only Destiny DLC that was actually worth it was Taken King (disclaimer: I haven't actually played Forsaken yet, I was looking forward to it as well as Shadowkeep). I'm not going to pay for an annual pass either because of time but also I just don't like that business model, so I won't support it. If you committed to one high-quality expansive DLC per year at no more than $40 (preferably no more than $30), I'd buy the shit out of that.

See first reply. We have one more time-wasting season (Season of Felwinter) coming up, which looks to recycle some Rise of Iron content (if you believe the Rumours of Fleetwood Mac) for yet another short objective-based Horde mode + mini-strike.
We're close enough to the Fall expansion that I'd just hold off at this point.

Side note on time: I recently got Overwatch and I love it. I hope you (Bungie) learned some things when you were cozy with Blizzard, because it's very quick to load the game, match times are generally better than Destiny or Halo, and being able to jump into a little "who cares" game immediately while waiting for the actual game I want is just a godsend. You can one-up them by always having FFA and Mayhem available. If that sounds too boring you can switch out the gametypes, have FFA deathmatch or the one where you pick up crests, have Mayhem deathmatch or Mayhem Control, etc. Also you had better bring back oddball, if you haven't already.

Overwatch is neat, but that game has had fewer content releases in the past three years than Destiny has had in its worst single year. On the one hand, what little content there is- is super polished, and usually incredibly balanced. On the other hand, the game is incredibly stale at this point, and only really worth picking up during major events (although I did just pay $10 for Brigitte's Goat skin because LOOK AT IT).

PS. All of the content that you get in Overwatch WILL transfer over to Overwatch 2, so that's another thing that Bungie can learn from.

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 15:13 (64 days ago) @ Korny

blah blah

lol fuck you Korny, Wu should've booted your ass
if you're at all behind the front page stalling I have one more reason to know you're a bad person

Avatar

OoO

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 16:47 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Avatar

OoO

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 16:56 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by General Vagueness, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 17:21

You should get it InsaneDrive, apparently you're one of his punching bags. He picks at people constantly and he enjoys their pain. You must have not seen what he, Schooly, Snipe, Tex and others did you SESpider over on HBO, or to Hyokin, or others over the years. At best he's sick and needs help, either way he shouldn't be here.

Avatar

OoO

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 17:03 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Wow. So glad you dropped by dude. This is super pleasant.

Did you just get really bored and decide to come and stir up some shit today?

Avatar

OoO

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 17:22 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Wow. So glad you dropped by dude. This is super pleasant.

Did you just get really bored and decide to come and stir up some shit today?

I didn't expect Korny to respond to me, I forgot he was even here. I could tell you about a groupd of sexist anti-gay anti-trans assholes that's been around b.org if you prefer, I kinda namedropped them already.

Avatar

OK! Let's try the DIRECT Approch.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 17:33 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Stop and Check yourself. You are being the monster you accuse. Yes, Korny can be an Asshole, and alas he has no Monopoly in that. But right now>>>RIGHT NOW! You are being the asshole. Step back and give yourself 24.

You are not in the right headspace right now, and it is showing HARD right now. Stop.

Avatar

OK! Let's try the DIRECT Approch.

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:04 (62 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That's a bit harsh yourself, calling me a monster. Why are you defending someone that most likely has no respect for you?

Avatar

Oh... Rorschach.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Friday, April 03, 2020, 16:46 (62 days ago) @ General Vagueness

That's a bit harsh yourself, calling me a monster. Why are you defending someone that most likely has no respect for you?

*Sigh* It's a saying from Friedrich Nietzsche, but I suppose it's all for not. It goes something like this...

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

And this looks like a very very old grudge far beyond my tenure.

I've not made this post for Korny, I made this post for you. What I've done with my little nudge is try and defend you from YOURSELF and your... how should I put this... regrettably baked in lack of social grace. Alas, I can only go so far. And what happens in result will happen, and it seems at the moment, sadly you will not understand the response to why.

Because for you there seems to be no gray. Only the grudge.

[image]

Avatar

Oh... Rorschach.

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 15:08 (61 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by General Vagueness, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 15:28

That's a bit harsh yourself, calling me a monster. Why are you defending someone that most likely has no respect for you?


*Sigh* It's a saying from Friedrich Nietzsche, but I suppose it's all for not. It goes something like this...

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.

I'm familiar with the phrase, I just didn't know from so little context what you were referring to. (and it's "for naught")

I've not made this post for Korny, I made this post for you. What I've done with my little nudge is try and defend you from YOURSELF and your... how should I put this... regrettably baked in lack of social grace.

As you say it's baked in. This is nothing new, you guys just haven't seen it lately, and I was too chickenshit to directly call him and others something as blatant as "fucking assholes" before, because I wanted everyone to like me, even the people who never will.
I could search and find a bunch of these little insults like the one he leveled against you from the time I was gone, and I could point you to stuff from further back where he went way over the line. You said it yourself, found this in a quick search, "Every other word was baseless vitriol, and every word after that was a pessimism present-day Korny seemingly aspires to." He's not pleasant to anyone. But you don't seem to care, and that legitimately makes me sad and frustrated.

Avatar

It's just life, brother.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 18:31 (61 days ago) @ General Vagueness

I've not made this post for Korny, I made this post for you. What I've done with my little nudge is try and defend you from YOURSELF and your... how should I put this... regrettably baked in lack of social grace.


As you say it's baked in. This is nothing new, you guys just haven't seen it lately, and I was too chickenshit to directly call him and others something as blatant as "fucking assholes" before, because I wanted everyone to like me, even the people who never will.

YOU'VE DONE NOTHING! All you have done is hurt yourself with immaturity. It's like you think you're in some Western. Just walking into a bar and ya just START SWING'N! In what probably going to totally blow-yer-gasket, it doesn't matter how true or just you think your action is. YOU'RE now the asshole in the situation. In the action you chose, you lost socially. HARD. In "real life", if you did as I describe in my metaphor, Korny could press charges, and he'd be in the right. It doesn't matter how true or just you think your action is. YOU LOSE Child!

(Oh, and hey - be true to yourself, and you'll be liked. Trick is figuring out what that is.)

I could search and find a bunch of these little insults like the one he leveled against you from the time I was gone, and I could point you to stuff from further back where he went way over the line. You said it yourself, found this in a quick search, "Every other word was baseless vitriol, and every word after that was a pessimism present-day Korny seemingly aspires to." He's not pleasant to anyone. But you don't seem to care, and that legitimately makes me sad and frustrated.

It's true I've had disagreements. It happens, and you move on. That's life, brother. Sometimes you're going to have to rub shoulders with folks who ain't exactly sweet as a rose. More thorns then anything. Oh the stories I could tell on the assholes I've had to work with, oh-my-tap-danceing-heavens above. You don't often get to pick and choose who you meet among your travels in this life, you can only adapt yourself.

Avatar

OoO

by Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) ⌂ @, Detroit, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 18:09 (64 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Hey you apologize right now you little jerk

Avatar

OoO

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 18:49 (64 days ago) @ Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316)

Can I get that printed on a $60 t-shirt?

Avatar

FULL CANVAS!

by Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316) ⌂ @, Detroit, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 19:09 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

Avatar

OoO

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:07 (62 days ago) @ Joe Duplessie (SNIPE 316)

lol fuck you

Avatar

Y’know, DBO used to be more pleasant than reddit

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 23:27 (63 days ago) @ General Vagueness
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 23:34

Just saying, if I were new to the site, and this was the first thread I looked at, I’d leave and never come back.

People come here to talk about a videogame, for crying out loud. I don’t know what’s going on in your head GV, but crap like this is not ok.

*edit*

Just so it’s clear, the title of my post is meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

Y’know, DBO used to be more pleasant than reddit

by EffortlessFury @, Friday, April 03, 2020, 09:19 (62 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Not unlike a virus, social media's influence has trickled back into all corners of the net. It truly will never be the same.

Avatar

I fear that you're right.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, April 03, 2020, 10:33 (62 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

- No text -

Avatar

Y’know, DBO used to be more pleasant than reddit

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:17 (62 days ago) @ EffortlessFury
edited by General Vagueness, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:25

You misunderstand. This has nothing to do with social media, I despise it as much as you do. The only people I've ever encountered that I truly believe are bad people are korny and snipe. I don't say that lightly. Even the other people I mentioned, while I despise them and wish they would quit, they seem to hace basic human respect. I don't know why Wu or even Schooly and company puts up with them.
If the day ever comes when I don't call out assholes, please smack me.
I will say it's good I left because something about this place gets my obsession going. I couldn't stop thinking about every problem around here. I'll hopefully see some of you online.

FWIW, I was speaking about the internet as a whole

by EffortlessFury @, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 03:44 (62 days ago) @ General Vagueness

- No text -

Avatar

Y’know, DBO used to be more pleasant than reddit

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 03, 2020, 10:55 (62 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Just saying, if I were new to the site, and this was the first thread I looked at, I’d leave and never come back.

You can never come back Charlie. You can never come baaaaaaaaackkkkkkkk…

Avatar

Yeah, He's Right.

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Friday, April 03, 2020, 15:59 (62 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Just saying, if I were new to the site, and this was the first thread I looked at, I’d leave and never come back.

People come here to talk about a videogame, for crying out loud. I don’t know what’s going on in your head GV, but crap like this is not ok.

*edit*

Just so it’s clear, the title of my post is meant to be somewhat tongue-in-cheek

This group used to be such an open and accepting place, where people could post to their hearts content and topics always stayed civil.

Now it's all Converse shoes and low-interest refi and GamingDish. We're no better than the others now! What a shithole!

XD

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 15:24 (64 days ago) @ Korny

PS. All of the content that you get in Overwatch WILL transfer over to Overwatch 2, so that's another thing that Bungie can learn from.

And there a some things I hope Bungie NEVER learns from Blizzard…

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=165653

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 16:50 (64 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by General Vagueness, Wednesday, April 01, 2020, 16:57

And there a some things I hope Bungie NEVER learns from Blizzard…

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=165653

I wish I could say I've missed you but going over that thread and others I wonder why I ever cared what you had to say. You're not a dumb guy or a bad guy but holy shit you go on and on and on. Also I despise when people link to an article to give their opinion instead of just stating it. Please just tell me (in the length of this post or less) what you dislike about Blizzard re: China.
Also also Kermit, I gotta say, a boycott is not a "mob", it's organized not-buying. A mob burns shit down. Next you're going to say workers going on strike is forming a mob.
Talking about stuff like it's bad rarely does anything, a boycott or strike is just about the minimum of what will actually have an effect, it's just sad it's also the maximum that's ethical most of the time.

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 09:22 (63 days ago) @ General Vagueness
edited by Kermit, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 09:25

And there a some things I hope Bungie NEVER learns from Blizzard…

https://destiny.bungie.org/forum/index.php?id=165653


I wish I could say I've missed you but going over that thread and others I wonder why I ever cared what you had to say. You're not a dumb guy or a bad guy but holy shit you go on and on and on. Also I despise when people link to an article to give their opinion instead of just stating it. Please just tell me (in the length of this post or less) what you dislike about Blizzard re: China.
Also also Kermit, I gotta say, a boycott is not a "mob", it's organized not-buying. A mob burns shit down. Next you're going to say workers going on strike is forming a mob.

No, I'm not going to say that, because that's kind of dumb. It's interesting in a thread were you criticize internet bullying that you don't recognize mob behavior online, and how that can destroy people's lives and businesses, and how, more often than not, the punishment does not fit the crime. I'm not against boycotts in principle, but with the advent of social media, I see it used more often as a tool to punish people you disagree with--it's an effective way to "win" that bypasses the hard work of building consensus by making persuasive arguments. Cody was calling attention to an issue, and I respect that.

Talking about stuff like it's bad rarely does anything, a boycott or strike is just about the minimum of what will actually have an effect, it's just sad it's also the maximum that's ethical most of the time.

Avatar

Destiny nowadays? also rantiness

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:04 (62 days ago) @ Kermit

I'm glad to be wrong then.

Sigh...

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 12:05 (63 days ago) @ General Vagueness

Well, this was fun.

I'm sad to see reactionary crap like GV's initial response to Korny; yes, Korny's been a jerk to him (and his friends) in the past, but in this particular case, he was nothing but helpful.

And, as is painfully obvious at this point, being reactionary generally brings the tone of the conversation down.

I know we aren't going to all get along, but I'd ask that everyone remain civil. Thanks.

Avatar

I Think He Should Have This One.

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Thursday, April 02, 2020, 15:44 (63 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Yes, this response was off the handle, but he's been put down by a lot of people, myself included. I still feel bad for losing control and cussing him out all those years ago.

If he continues on a tear or goes too far, then sure—whatever it takes. But honestly, I'd let it slide for now.

Avatar

Sigh...

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:07 (62 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I think you owe the people he's been an asshole to and continues to be an asshole to an explanation for why you do nothing about it, and for that matter Snipe and the others I named. I made you aware of it years ago.

Avatar

Sigh...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, April 03, 2020, 14:42 (62 days ago) @ General Vagueness

What you're doing is the equivalent of showing up at a high school reunion and screaming at everybody over every slight you felt years ago. Move on. Let it go. Realize that people can mature. This is not productive for anybody, especially yourself.

Avatar

Sigh...

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 15:14 (61 days ago) @ bluerunner
edited by General Vagueness, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 15:27

What you're doing is the equivalent of showing up at a high school reunion and screaming at everybody over every slight you felt years ago. Move on. Let it go. Realize that people can mature. This is not productive for anybody, especially yourself.

He hasn't matured, he showed that, firstly by responding to me when he knows I don't like him, secondly by insulting someone within that response and thirdly... I can just tell from the fact his posting style hasn't changed, not just in that post but others. The one that comes to mind is a snarky post about being right after Wu said to stop arguing in the thread about paid access to content.
It's not like I'm not engaging with the forum, I posted in like 5 other threads and no one seems to care. I point out one asshole that some influential people like and even after one of them softly admits he's an asshole, it's somehow important, and for the wrong reasons. I was ready to move on, that's why I said "hope to see you online, good thing I left", but I'm obsessive and apparently some people thought this was important.
If you want normalcy you should engage me on other shit. But while you do that, please, examine who you're friends with.
Being an asshole to anyone, even if it's not you or your friends, is not OK. Yes you could say I did the same, I should have been more level headed and said something like "oh he's still here, that's unfortunate" and left it. I'm not sorry for calling him out, I've done it before on HBO and no one cared, as mentioned I let Wu and the others know about him, now it's just in a way and a place that people care.
-------
/end/

Avatar

Sigh...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 16:02 (61 days ago) @ General Vagueness

The part you’re missing, it seems, is that nobody wants to engage with your other posts because the moment you returned here you turned everyone off with your behaviour.

Whatever you happen to think of him, Korny has many friends here. Quite of few of those friends don’t always like the way he communicates on the forums, but anyone who plays with him on a regular basis knows he’s quite helpful and fun... he just has a bratty sense of humour, and loves to troll (for better or for worse). But regardless of what anyone thinks of Korny, nobody likes to see these forums tarnished by the kind of personal attacks you just launched into the moment you returned. Whatever history you are bringing with you into this, it is neither necessary nor productive. Throwing around accusations of “sexist, anti-gay, and anti-trans behaviour” out of literally nowhere makes you look bad, not Korny (or anyone else). When you lead with that, I personally will just skip any posts you make on any other subject from now on. Not enough hours in the day to waste on people who like to walk in the front door and start throwing shit around. Not that you should care if I personally have any interest in your posts, but if your real goal is to engage with others about Destiny, you may want to rethink your approach.

What a weird thing to say

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, April 06, 2020, 09:30 (59 days ago) @ General Vagueness

He hasn't matured, he showed that, firstly by responding to me when he knows I don't like him,

I feel like the opposite is true here? Surely?

Either way, it's a rare day that this entire forum unites against someone, much less in Korny's(!!!) defense. That should tell you a little something about how you presented yourself.

On the bright side its kinda nice to agree with INSANE about something.

Sigh...

by Claude Errera @, Friday, April 03, 2020, 16:51 (62 days ago) @ General Vagueness

I think you owe the people he's been an asshole to and continues to be an asshole to an explanation for why you do nothing about it, and for that matter Snipe and the others I named. I made you aware of it years ago.

Pretty much the same reason I'm not doing anything about YOU right now (other than asking you, politely, to tone it down).

Avatar

Sigh...

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Saturday, April 04, 2020, 15:06 (61 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I think you owe the people he's been an asshole to and continues to be an asshole to an explanation for why you do nothing about it, and for that matter Snipe and the others I named. I made you aware of it years ago.


Pretty much the same reason I'm not doing anything about YOU right now (other than asking you, politely, to tone it down).

Which is what?

Sigh...

by Claude Errera @, Sunday, April 05, 2020, 00:07 (61 days ago) @ General Vagueness

I think you owe the people he's been an asshole to and continues to be an asshole to an explanation for why you do nothing about it, and for that matter Snipe and the others I named. I made you aware of it years ago.


Pretty much the same reason I'm not doing anything about YOU right now (other than asking you, politely, to tone it down).


Which is what?

Because b.org hasn't, in its 20+ years of existence, banned people for being assholes. You could count the number of people that have been permabanned at all on your hands.

I talk to people who attack other people, or otherwise disrupt life on the forum. In extreme cases, I ask them to take a time-out, or (more occasionally still) temp-ban them if things don't get better. But it's not my job, and has never been my job, to make person 1 feel more comfortable by removing person 2.

Claude for President

by someotherguy, Hertfordshire, England, Monday, April 06, 2020, 09:31 (59 days ago) @ Claude Errera

- No text -

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread