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Bungie Stream: Introducing FUUUTURE...oh & S11 (Destiny)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:05 (64 days ago)
edited by INSANEdrive, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:04

Old Title: "Bungie Stream: Introducing Season of the Arrivals"
(Note: This name, while leaked, was confirmed officially on stream through the timeline animation.)

Alt Title: Correction: A Vault, A Time, A Choice & oh a S11 Promo Vid
( A formerly Embedded tweet I thought was relevant to the stream.)
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Streams: Twitch - Mixer - Youtube
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Edit: Changed Title to better reflect content. Added Direct Twitch Link to recorded stream. Added Tweets with CGI & Hype inducing Content. Added Direct Link to readable content about details spoken about in stream. Edited post formatting.



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Bungie Stream: Introducing Season of the Arrivals

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:38 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Call me a sellout. I'm Hyped AF.

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Bungie Stream: Introducing FUUUTURE...oh & S11

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:41 (64 days ago) @ breitzen

Call me a sellout. I'm Hyped AF.

It definitely wasn't what I presumed with the little there was to go on. I will say it does look cool. Everything else requires time for me to write that I'm not going to push on, for now.

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tl;dr

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:43 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by Korny, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:02

(Note: This name, while leaked, was confirmed officially on stream through the timeline animation.)[/size]


-Dungeon launching today is cool, and Bungie was actually creative with the visual style and mechanics of it.

-No D3stiny on the way. Content for D2 confirmed through end of 2023.

-Less popular D2 content being removed (Vaulted is the dev term- RIP Leviathan (Raids and Raid Lairs), Mars, Io, Titan, Mercury, and Gambit Prime(?)), but more popular D1 content being brought forward (Cosmodrome and three strikes confirmed, along with Vault of Glass coming with fall expansion).

- This season is more of a stop-gap for Fall's expansion, which adds a "Stasis" damage type amd subclass (likely similar to "Slag" from Borderlands 2, but more freezy).

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tl;dr

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 11:10 (64 days ago) @ Korny
edited by Cody Miller, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 11:17

-Less popular D2 content being removed (Vaulted is the dev term- RIP Leviathan (Raids and Raid Lairs), Mars, Io, Titan, Mercury, and Gambit Prime(?)), but more popular D1 content being brought forward (Cosmodrome and three strikes confirmed, along with Vault of Glass coming with fall expansion).

Is this because of hard drive space issues?

No D3stiny on the way. Content for D2 confirmed through end of 2023.

At this point, no D3stiny at all seems plausible. I wonder how much of the team is already on Matter.

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tl;dr

by breitzen @, Kansas, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 11:20 (64 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Here's the link: https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/49189

But here are the bullet points that I think pertain:

  • Destiny 2 is too large to efficiently update and maintain.
  • The size and complexity of the game are also contributing to more bugs and less innovation.
  • Instead of building a Destiny 3 and leaving D2 behind, each year, we are going to cycle older, less actively played content out of the live game and into what we’re calling the Destiny Content Vault (DCV).
  • This will allow us to add to and support D2 for years, including the three new annual expansions we announced today, starting with Beyond Light this fall.
  • The DCV will include all content from Destiny 1 and anything that cycles out from Destiny 2.
  • We will bring back (or “unvault”) activity and destination content from the DCV each year.

The article goes into much greater detail.

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Long Term Future

by squidnh3, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:43 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Really nice to get some super-basic clarity about long term plans, both from a practical perspective (no Destiny 3) and from a story perspective (there's a plan about where this universe is going).

Really interested in seeing how removing stuff is going to work.

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Long Term Future

by squidnh3, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 09:56 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Really interested in seeing how removing stuff is going to work.

Wow it's a lot of stuff: Removal Article

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Long Term Future

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:19 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Really interested in seeing how removing stuff is going to work.


Wow it's a lot of stuff: Removal Article

That's a LOT of the game's content getting chopped off in one blow (Dungeons, Strikes, Adventures, etc.). That said, look how clean the Director looks!

[image]

What a beaut!

Long Term Future

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:26 (64 days ago) @ Korny

Really interested in seeing how removing stuff is going to work.


Wow it's a lot of stuff: Removal Article


That's a LOT of the game's content getting chopped off in one blow (Dungeons, Strikes, Adventures, etc.). That said, look how clean the Director looks!

Um... definitely strikes and adventures, but dungeons? Both the Moon (Pit of Heresy) and the Dreaming City (Shattered Throne) are remaining, so what dungeons are we losing?

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Long Term Future

by squidnh3, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:29 (64 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Um... definitely strikes and adventures, but dungeons? Both the Moon (Pit of Heresy) and the Dreaming City (Shattered Throne) are remaining, so what dungeons are we losing?

Depends on whose classifying things, but we will be losing the Whisper mission and Menagerie.

Also all the Y1 Leviathan raids, Crown of Sorrow, and apparently for some reason Scourge of the Past (that last one isn't explicitly listed, but is implied by the "only 3 current raids" comments elsewhere).

I'd personally rather not be losing the Raids, they're truly unique content.

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Long Term Future

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:31 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Um... definitely strikes and adventures, but dungeons? Both the Moon (Pit of Heresy) and the Dreaming City (Shattered Throne) are remaining, so what dungeons are we losing?


Depends on whose classifying things, but we will be losing the Whisper mission and Menagerie.

Also all the Y1 Leviathan raids, Crown of Sorrow, and apparently for some reason Scourge of the Past (that last one isn't explicitly listed, but is implied by the "only 3 current raids" comments elsewhere).

I'd personally rather not be losing the Raids, they're truly unique content.

Yeah, I was kinda surprised by the leviathan being dropped. As for Whisper, they specifically said all exotic quests that require those locations will be reworked. So I'm assuming that means you can get Whisper another way.

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Long Term Future

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 12:02 (64 days ago) @ Korny

I hope that means the Tower is back to being auto selected when I open the Director again!

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Hope For The Future! *NM*

by Ragashingo ⌂ @, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 12:50 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

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It's coming soon enough.

by bluerunner @, Music City, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 12:59 (64 days ago) @ Ragashingo

- No text -

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+1

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 08:41 (63 days ago) @ cheapLEY

- No text -

Bye to the Destiny 2 campaign

by Burchie, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 02:00 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Really interested in seeing how removing stuff is going to work.


Wow it's a lot of stuff: Removal Article

It really is. It will be interesting to see if there are any changes to New Light too. From memory they didn’t get all the content from Forsaken. I wonder if that will change.

I will be interested to see the community response. With Destiny 1, that content is still there to play whenever I want (admittedly not often). I enjoy playing old games. While not accessible in the same way anymore, it will push Destiny 2’s original campaign out of reach for some time. Maybe forever as a package depending how they recycle destinations. It wasn’t perfect but had some strong parts I really enjoyed, I will definitely run through it before September.

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Bye to the Destiny 2 campaign

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 08:23 (63 days ago) @ Burchie

So uh, what happens if you start a new character? You don't get to play through everything again?!

Bye to the Destiny 2 campaign

by Burchie, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 05:54 (62 days ago) @ Cody Miller

So uh, what happens if you start a new character? You don't get to play through everything again?!

Now or when Beyond Light comes around in September? Now you play the Cosmodrome mission from D1 and then head straight to the current tower with all sub-classes unlocked and at light level 750.

You then get quests taking you through the game’s different elements (Strikes etc) without touching the campaign. You have to go find Amanda in the Hanger to get access to campaigns.

When Beyond Light comes around I assume it will be the same without the optional Amanda questline for the original campaign. You would just have access to Forsaken on.

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Bye to the Destiny 2 campaign

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 11:16 (62 days ago) @ Burchie

When Beyond Light comes around I assume it will be the same without the optional Amanda questline for the original campaign. You would just have access to Forsaken on.

So the Destiny 2 campaign is gone forever?
Wow.

Bye to the Destiny 2 campaign

by Simpsons Rule @, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 11:22 (62 days ago) @ Cody Miller

"You had to be there."

-SR

Until it is rotated back in.

by EffortlessFury @, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 12:47 (62 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 16:01 (62 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)

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lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 12, 2020, 11:49 (61 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)

Oh no I get it, it's just the worst of both worlds in my opinion.

D3stiny would mean everything from Des2ny stays all the time, plus all the new stuff from D3stiny. Vaulting means most of the time Des2ny stuff is unplayable.

The way I see it, I did not buy the season pass. So why is the season pass taking away what I DID buy? I don't personally care (that much), but the precedent this sets is horrible.

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lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:20 (61 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)


Oh no I get it, it's just the worst of both worlds in my opinion.

D3stiny would mean everything from Des2ny stays all the time, plus all the new stuff from D3stiny. Vaulting means most of the time Des2ny stuff is unplayable.

This is from the view of someone who plans on playing old content a lot though. Destiny is a live game, which is all about the present. They have to think about that. Doing what they are doing now and moving to D3 isn't that different except they have work that they can reuse. They have to recycle content if they plan continuing with D2.

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lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:27 (61 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)


Oh no I get it, it's just the worst of both worlds in my opinion.

D3stiny would mean everything from Des2ny stays all the time, plus all the new stuff from D3stiny. Vaulting means most of the time Des2ny stuff is unplayable.


This is from the view of someone who plans on playing old content a lot though. Destiny is a live game, which is all about the present. They have to think about that. Doing what they are doing now and moving to D3 isn't that different except they have work that they can reuse. They have to recycle content if they plan continuing with D2.

I think it BECAME a live game. It wasn't one when I bought it back in 2014. I wouldn't even say Des2ny was one back in 2017 either.

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lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:31 (61 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)


Oh no I get it, it's just the worst of both worlds in my opinion.

D3stiny would mean everything from Des2ny stays all the time, plus all the new stuff from D3stiny. Vaulting means most of the time Des2ny stuff is unplayable.


This is from the view of someone who plans on playing old content a lot though. Destiny is a live game, which is all about the present. They have to think about that. Doing what they are doing now and moving to D3 isn't that different except they have work that they can reuse. They have to recycle content if they plan continuing with D2.


I think it BECAME a live game. It wasn't one when I bought it back in 2014. I wouldn't even say Des2ny was one back in 2017 either.

That might be true, but how does that affect their decision now? It IS a live game from at the very least a year ago. If it wasn't a live game I would expect them to have released D3 in the near future.

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lol - thanks for this voice of reason. :)

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:06 (61 days ago) @ Claude Errera
edited by Korny, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:12

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)

Keep in mind that Vaulted content will be returned piecemeal, and several of the Red War's campaign locations are getting vaulted, and joining the entirety of D1's content in the vault.

I highly doubt they'd unvault all of the locations at once for a season just for the sake of having people play through the often mediocre story missions (Io, anyone?), so yes. It's entirely possible (and probable) that the Destiny 2 campaign will be gone forever, unless Bungie overhauls it in some major ways.

PS. DE has only ever vaulted two raids in Warframe (back in 2018), due to bugs and low population in their matchmaking, with promises to tweak and polish them before re-releasing them. They have not even begun to talk about bringing them back. Given how big Destiny 1 was, and just how much of D2 is being cut, it may be years before some of the D2 content comes back, if it ever gets pulled from the vault.

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This

by Robot Chickens, Friday, June 12, 2020, 12:50 (61 days ago) @ Korny

I wasn't really expecting Cody to bother reading what 'vaulting' meant. :)


Keep in mind that Vaulted content will be returned piecemeal, and several of the Red War's campaign locations are getting vaulted, and joining the entirety of D1's content in the vault.

I highly doubt they'd unvault all of the locations at once for a season just for the sake of having people play through the often mediocre story missions (Io, anyone?), so yes. It's entirely possible (and probable) that the Destiny 2 campaign will be gone forever, unless Bungie overhauls it in some major ways.

PS. DE has only ever vaulted two raids in Warframe (back in 2018), due to bugs and low population in their matchmaking, with promises to tweak and polish them before re-releasing them. They have not even begun to talk about bringing them back. Given how big Destiny 1 was, and just how much of D2 is being cut, it may be years before some of the D2 content comes back, if it ever gets pulled from the vault.

That's my take as well.

My personal hope is that locations are used dynamically going forward and they lean into the, "this is Destiny now" idea. If they come back, hopefully they reflect the passage of time we've experienced (that being said, unvaulting Sepiks goes against this). It would just be nice to get some sense that stuff we've done changed the game world. Hopefully this allows them to do that.

My hopes aren't high for this though...

Until it is rotated back in.

by Burchie, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 20:11 (62 days ago) @ EffortlessFury

It is all speculation at this point, because I haven’t seen too much info on this but it depends the approach Bungie take to rolling back in content. The complete D2 campaign would require the EDZ, IO, Titan, Nessus and the levels on the Almighty at the same time. Nessus is around next season but the others are out. We will just have to wait and see.

Bungie Stream: Introducing Season of the Arrivals

by Simpsons Rule @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 10:04 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I'm glad they're taking a practical approach to their content updates through vaulting, and I feel like it marks a significant change from the attitude I saw during the transition from Destiny 1 to Destiny 2. The original plan for Destiny 2 didn't allow you to import your guardian from Destiny 1. I was always shocked by that because it felt like such a disconnect between the developers and players. We tend to grow attached to our characters and their accomplishments - being okay with the idea of tossing them aside was very odd (although they completely made up for it with the "legacy" cutscene at the start of Destiny 2).

Luke said it best, they don't want to slap another number on the box. I can appreciate that. I think it helps keep the continuity of the game intact. Vaulting seems like a great compromise to the alternative, which is losing it all for a Destiny 3 due to the size of game assets. It also avoids the feeling of getting content taken away from me only so I can pay for it a second or third time.

-SR

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Does that mean...

by bluerunner @, Music City, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 12:34 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

...Fatebringer is returning? Mythoclast too? That's good news. It'll be fun to play it again with some of the newer exotics.

I hope this means new types of activities. I'm getting burned put on the non-matchmade horde modes.

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Okay, but what’s this season about?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 13:30 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

New activity?

I haven’t had time to watch anything, I was hoping someone would break it down.

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I'll try [*SPOILERS*]

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 13:33 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

New activity?

I haven’t had time to watch anything, I was hoping someone would break it down.

  • Pyramid parked over IO, cool opening mission to the season with Eris content
  • Pyramid public events with bank mechanics
  • Drifter processes the output of those events? maybe?
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Thanks!

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 16:03 (64 days ago) @ kidtsunami

Sounds neat. I’m finally sitting down to watch the reveal.

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So do I have to buy dlc to play Vault of Glass again???

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:27 (63 days ago) @ kidtsunami

- No text -

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So do I have to buy dlc to play Vault of Glass again???

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:41 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

I don’t think so. I think that stuff in the DVC is gong to be part of the F2P game. But I now that I look I can’t find a quote... But they did say they’ll be talking about it more throughout the summer so maybe its a wait and see.

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Learning to sprint again

by squidnh3, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 13:38 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Why oh why toggle sprint

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Learning to sprint again

by bluerunner @, Music City, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 15:19 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Custom controls are a great addition, but it took me a few tries to figure out what to do with sprint. I also didnt realize that hitting B to back out of the button mapping made that action bind to B. I had a ton of stuff mapped to B by accident. That makes for some interesting gameplay.

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Learning to sprint again

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 19:29 (64 days ago) @ squidnh3

Why oh why toggle sprint

It's not just sprint... I guess.

So when I first logged on, well, sprint was the first thing I noticed. I didn't want to say anything until others did as well, and at this point there has both here and the reddits. But as I've been playing, something feels... off. But for the life of me, I can't seem to figure out what it is. It could be that the sprint issue is just throwing me off balance, and that's it, but whatever it is... man. It's bothersome. So much so that its killing any want to play.

Bah.

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Learning to sprint again

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 21:34 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I still don’t really understand what the sprint issue is. I guess I don’t use it the way other people do, because I haven’t noticed an issue.

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Learning to sprint again

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Sunday, June 14, 2020, 11:40 (59 days ago) @ cheapLEY

For me it manifests as being kicked out of a sprint mode when it would not have happened previously. I'm not clear on what is happening or why.

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Learning to sprint again

by Pyromancy @, Sunday, June 14, 2020, 20:53 (59 days ago) @ Vortech
edited by Pyromancy, Sunday, June 14, 2020, 21:27

For me it manifests as being kicked out of a sprint mode when it would not have happened previously. I'm not clear on what is happening or why.

Yeah, I'm getting that too sometimes. (not all the time, or it effects/bugs me less than some?)

For me it is also manifesting occasionally as a tiny little 'bunny hop' when landing on flat ground after a jump (Warlock) & occasionally missed clamber (separate issue). I think it could be related to sprint somehow, like stored up sprint energy being expelled at the end of the jump or something?

Top tree Stormcaller (Stormtrance?) has been tripping me up too (when you cast the roaming super, you have to consciously wait to pull the trigger to execute the electric attack)

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*Possible fix inbound?* Learning to sprint again

by Pyromancy @, Sunday, June 14, 2020, 20:57 (59 days ago) @ squidnh3

Why oh why toggle sprint

I came across a helpful link over on Reddit regarding the recent Controller issues

It looks like a possible fix may be coming inbound soon?

Bungie.net Forums | [BNG] Controller remapping bugs

We are currently investigating various issues related to controller remapping. Below are a list of known issues the team is currently investigating:
• Sprinting will cancel if players press the Sprint action again
• The threshold for analog-based inputs, such as Weapon Fire or ADS, is less forgiving and requires more pressure on press
• Stormtrance cannot be used if Attack inputs are held during the cast animation – players must release the input and press again
• Pressing A/X no longer dismounts from Sparrow while using the Jumper control scheme – the dismount action is now X/Square
• Controller trigger stops can’t fire certain weapons reliably after Update 2.9.0
• Double-tapping a button for the Hunter's Dodge and the Warlock’s Icarus Dash doesn't always work

A fix for the Sprint canceling bug is planned for Hotfix 2.9.0.1 during the week of June 15. We are targeting fixes for the rest of the controller mapping bugs with an additional Hotfix during the week of June 22. Please note that these fixes may be delayed due to unforeseen circumstances.

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Some of these I was unaware of. Good to know. Thank you.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Sunday, June 14, 2020, 22:00 (59 days ago) @ Pyromancy

- No text -

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*Possible fix inbound?* Learning to sprint again

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, June 15, 2020, 05:58 (58 days ago) @ Pyromancy

The sparrow dismount thing was driving me crazy. Speaking of sparrows, that was a time when I could barely finish a sparrow race and would always be in last place. The reason? Trigger stops.

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Okay, but what’s this season about?

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 21:39 (64 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m not sure that I’ll stick with it for long, but I had fun playing tonight. This was definitely a good way to kick off a season. The mission was cool, and the story feels important in a way that previous seasons haven’t.

I wish there was a solution for light level. I’d love to jump into the dungeon, but not playing for a season means I’m way behind so I can’t, and I’m out leveled in like phase two of the new public event.

Still, the new public event is fun, and a neat repurposing off Gambit mechanics.

I’m totally here for The Drifter and Eris combo, too.

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Okay, but what’s this season about?

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 07:50 (63 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I’m not sure that I’ll stick with it for long, but I had fun playing tonight. This was definitely a good way to kick off a season. The mission was cool, and the story feels important in a way that previous seasons haven’t.

I wish there was a solution for light level. I’d love to jump into the dungeon, but not playing for a season means I’m way behind so I can’t, and I’m out leveled in like phase two of the new public event.

Still, the new public event is fun, and a neat repurposing off Gambit mechanics.

I’m totally here for The Drifter and Eris combo, too.

I've been out for a season (or two) at this point, but just like a large seasonal light bump, it seems like I'm gaining faster. So at least that is a bonus. Shouldn't be too long before your blue items bump you up there.

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Okay, but what’s this season about?

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 19:35 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I've been out for a season (or two) at this point, but just like a large seasonal light bump, it seems like I'm gaining faster. So at least that is a bonus. Shouldn't be too long before your blue items bump you up there.

I’ve jumped 30 points in the last two nights, so it’s not been bad. Although it looks like I’m at the soft cap, so now it’ll slow down.

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4K/60 on new consoles!

by cheapLEY @, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 18:57 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

With cross generation play! Hell yes.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Tuesday, June 09, 2020, 23:28 (64 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

It’s taken less than 12 hours for weapon sunsetting to rear it’s ugly head in a bad way. These 3 posts are all on the Destiny Reddit front page:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/gzzfam/the_regrind_for_the_exact_same_weapon_but_just_a/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/h02tzg/sunsetting_weapons_while_not_ideal_is/

https://www.reddit.com/r/DestinyTheGame/comments/h00l1s/why_do_i_have_to_get_another_identical_weapon_to/

The tl;dr here is that “new” versions of several “old” weapons have been added to the world loot pool. These “new” versions have a level cap way up in the 1300s, while the old versions are maxed out at 1060. The icing on the cake is that the “new” versions are literally identical to the old ones... same exact perk pools. And no, the new ones can’t be infused into the old ones. So if you’ve got an Arsenic Bite or a Lonesome that you really love and have thousands of kills with, and you want to keep using it in the future, you’ll have to re-grind for it just so you can get a “new” version of the exact same gun with a higher number on it.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 06:47 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I’m trying to figure out how much I care. I genuinely mean that. In principle, it sucks. It reeks of laziness.

In practice, I have never grinded for a specific roll on a gun ever. It’s just not how I play the game. I just take what I get and use it, and replace it when better rolls come along.

Having to eventually build other armor sets is a real ball ache, though.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:35 (63 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by CruelLEGACEY, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:39

I’m trying to figure out how much I care. I genuinely mean that. In principle, it sucks. It reeks of laziness.

In practice, I have never grinded for a specific roll on a gun ever. It’s just not how I play the game. I just take what I get and use it, and replace it when better rolls come along.

Having to eventually build other armor sets is a real ball ache, though.

I get that. It’s a great approach, really. I drifted between both approaches. Sometimes I’d grind for a specific roll, others I’d happen across something and really like it. But either way, the whole justification for sunsetting was, in short, that Bungie needed to clear our old stuff out of the way to make room for new stuff, and to keep that cycle going in the future. This implementation already shows the lie in that. They’re not getting Arsenic Bite “out of the way” by introducing ANOTHER Arsenic Bite that is identical in every way, except with a higher level cap. Whether you have a gun that you grinded for a specific roll, or just stumbled into one you like, Bungie is essentially just adding a “grind tax” by making you reacquire it if you’d like to keep using it. And it sucks even more if you care about a specific roll.

*edit*

Also, not everyone will care about this, but lots of players care about their masterwork kill counters. For those players, it sucks to have to reacquire their favourite weapon, AND lose their kill count in the process. Why not just let them infuse their original up?

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:25 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Also, not everyone will care about this, but lots of players care about their masterwork kill counters. For those players, it sucks to have to reacquire their favourite weapon, AND lose their kill count in the process. Why not just let them infuse their original up?

This is a great example of one of the most serious disconnects in Destiny right now. There are many mechanisms in the game that promote becoming invested in your gear or collecting things, while at the same time they keep making changes that make it incredibly un-fun to manage being invested in your gear or collecting.

I really get the feeling that some part of Bungie wants Destiny to become a completely transient game, where the only things that matter are the current things. But this is almost entirely incompatible with the foundation that's been previously laid of long-term connection to gear and items. The whiplash from these changes are the 1000 cuts that lead to fatigue and apathy with the game despite the fantastic gameplay and super-fun new (real not bounties) content.

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Weapon *whiplash* in action

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:33 (63 days ago) @ squidnh3

Also, not everyone will care about this, but lots of players care about their masterwork kill counters. For those players, it sucks to have to reacquire their favourite weapon, AND lose their kill count in the process. Why not just let them infuse their original up?


This is a great example of one of the most serious disconnects in Destiny right now. There are many mechanisms in the game that promote becoming invested in your gear or collecting things, while at the same time they keep making changes that make it incredibly un-fun to manage being invested in your gear or collecting.

I really get the feeling that some part of Bungie wants Destiny to become a completely transient game, where the only things that matter are the current things. But this is almost entirely incompatible with the foundation that's been previously laid of long-term connection to gear and items. The whiplash from these changes are the 1000 cuts that lead to fatigue and apathy with the game despite the fantastic gameplay and super-fun new (real not bounties) content.

Agreed. It seems to be a gross oversight. Than again, it's obvious a VISION has been established, now that we know that they have the next two years coursed out in some degree. It occurs to me that this discrepancy we are seeing may be like... growing pains? It's a touch lousy comparison, but hear me out. Before hand, D1 and perhaps Early D2, there was only this more-or-less vague idea of things (a "What is the Darkness? We don't know either") that canonically came about mixing gameplay and "story elements". It seems to me thinking back that at some points things may have been proposed in a more organic way, as there was no real set path. Sky...er Tech is the limit. Then we come to now, and the road is set it seems. The overgrowth must be trimmed. It's not so much growing, but evolving.

Problem is... we are still here because we enjoyed what was being made. Well, most of the time any way. We enjoyed what it was at one point or another. All these ideas and variants of how the game plays. Early D1 is different to Late D1. Early D2 is a WHOLE'NOTHER game, and things have shifted and changed since then.

Returning back to the subject at hand, it seems like all of this... ... ...STUPID, (lets keep it simple,) is a result of some bulldozer mindset in cleaning up from ideas now considered "outdated". Where then we go; AH! You destroyed the thingy the supplies dinglbat to the whositwhatit! Then Bungie goes; Do we have time to fix what the community feels is broken? I guess we'll patch up the loose ends, and destroy it properly later.

Such as... guns that are essentially THE SAME can not infuse their ability to survive the sunset. DUH!

Attached is a picture of Destiny 2 as it works to prepare the road for future years and seasons.

[image]

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Weapon *whiplash* in action

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:14 (63 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Also, not everyone will care about this, but lots of players care about their masterwork kill counters. For those players, it sucks to have to reacquire their favourite weapon, AND lose their kill count in the process. Why not just let them infuse their original up?


This is a great example of one of the most serious disconnects in Destiny right now. There are many mechanisms in the game that promote becoming invested in your gear or collecting things, while at the same time they keep making changes that make it incredibly un-fun to manage being invested in your gear or collecting.

I really get the feeling that some part of Bungie wants Destiny to become a completely transient game, where the only things that matter are the current things. But this is almost entirely incompatible with the foundation that's been previously laid of long-term connection to gear and items. The whiplash from these changes are the 1000 cuts that lead to fatigue and apathy with the game despite the fantastic gameplay and super-fun new (real not bounties) content.


Agreed. It seems to be a gross oversight. Than again, it's obvious a VISION has been established, now that we know that they have the next two years coursed out in some degree. It occurs to me that this discrepancy we are seeing may be like... growing pains? It's a touch lousy comparison, but hear me out. Before hand, D1 and perhaps Early D2, there was only this more-or-less vague idea of things (a "What is the Darkness? We don't know either") that canonically came about mixing gameplay and "story elements". It seems to me thinking back that at some points things may have been proposed in a more organic way, as there was no real set path. Sky...er Tech is the limit. Then we come to now, and the road is set it seems. The overgrowth must be trimmed. It's not so much growing, but evolving.

Problem is... we are still here because we enjoyed what was being made. Well, most of the time any way. We enjoyed what it was at one point or another. All these ideas and variants of how the game plays. Early D1 is different to Late D1. Early D2 is a WHOLE'NOTHER game, and things have shifted and changed since then.

Returning back to the subject at hand, it seems like all of this... ... ...STUPID, (lets keep it simple,) is a result of some bulldozer mindset in cleaning up from ideas now considered "outdated". Where then we go; AH! You destroyed the thingy the supplies dinglbat to the whositwhatit! Then Bungie goes; Do we have time to fix what the community feels is broken? I guess we'll patch up the loose ends, and destroy it properly later.

Such as... guns that are essentially THE SAME can not infuse their ability to survive the sunset. DUH!

Attached is a picture of Destiny 2 as it works to prepare the road for future years and seasons.

[image]

I’ve been thinking, this all feels like the negative aspects of leaving D2 behind and jumping on board with a full blown “D3” sequel, with very few of the upsides, lol.

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I'd be fine with a D3

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:29 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I like that we're getting some D1 content cycled into D2. But I think I'd rather just have D3.

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I'd be fine with a D3

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:35 (63 days ago) @ breitzen

I like that we're getting some D1 content cycled into D2. But I think I'd rather just have D3.

Given the choice between where D2 is heading right now and a clean break/D3 launch, I agree. I’d prefer a D3 as well.

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..eh

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:43 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I actually agree with their logic that doing another hard break start over like the beginning of D2 is a non-starter, but I don't understand how their solution to that problem is to make us gradually start over continuously: "if the pain is spread out over time, maybe it will hurt less!"

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+1000

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:11 (63 days ago) @ squidnh3

Also, not everyone will care about this, but lots of players care about their masterwork kill counters. For those players, it sucks to have to reacquire their favourite weapon, AND lose their kill count in the process. Why not just let them infuse their original up?


This is a great example of one of the most serious disconnects in Destiny right now. There are many mechanisms in the game that promote becoming invested in your gear or collecting things, while at the same time they keep making changes that make it incredibly un-fun to manage being invested in your gear or collecting.

I really get the feeling that some part of Bungie wants Destiny to become a completely transient game, where the only things that matter are the current things. But this is almost entirely incompatible with the foundation that's been previously laid of long-term connection to gear and items. The whiplash from these changes are the 1000 cuts that lead to fatigue and apathy with the game despite the fantastic gameplay and super-fun new (real not bounties) content.

You hit the nail on the head, IMO. *Transient* is exactly what the focus of this game is shifting towards, and I can’t see it being a good move. Rather than improve the pieces of content that need improving, Bungie will just take them out of the game for a year or two, then slap them back in when everyone is sick of the limited activities that remained active. PvP maps won’t be fixed or reworked, they’ll just be rotated through.
We’ve already seen some of this in action, with the Exodus Crash strike and a few PvP maps.

It’s almost like Bungie has given up on the idea of making content so good that it’s essential to the game. Like they realize most of their patrol spaces are redundant outside of the aesthetics, most of their strikes fail to deliver the replay value that they should. It’s sad to me, because they CAN create some truly stellar activities. The Dungeons, Whisper/Zero Hour missions and their attached quests/catalysts, the raids... these are consistently excellent pieces of content. I’d gladly sacrifice all of the seasonal filler content that Bungie has been churning out in favour of a trickle of hi quality activities that have real staying power. A single whisper-style mission per season would do more for me than all the seasonal filler content that the live team has been pumping out over the past year.

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+1000

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:21 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I’d gladly sacrifice all of the seasonal filler content that Bungie has been churning out in favour of a trickle of hi quality activities that have real staying power. A single whisper-style mission per season would do more for me than all the seasonal filler content that the live team has been pumping out over the past year.

This.

Although the new public event activity is fun- for now.

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+1000

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 14:53 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

You hit the nail on the head, IMO. *Transient* is exactly what the focus of this game is shifting towards, and I can’t see it being a good move.

I'm generally dead set against 'transient' games, but Tevis Thompson (you hated his Zelda essay, so whatever) has a piece that is fascinating regarding his experience with Fortnite. I don't agree, but it made me think about temporary events from a new perspective.

http://tevisthompson.com/its-not-coming-back/#generation

Weapon sunsetting in action

by Simpsons Rule @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 06:54 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

The icing on the cake is that the “new” versions are literally identical to the old ones... same exact perk pools. And no, the new ones can’t be infused into the old ones. So if you’ve got an Arsenic Bite or a Lonesome that you really love and have thousands of kills with, and you want to keep using it in the future, you’ll have to re-grind for it just so you can get a “new” version of the exact same gun with a higher number on it.

Bungie can't reasonably expect players to re-grind for the same weapons with the same perks. If the prior weapon roll can still be obtained in the "new" version of the gun, the "old" gun's cap needs to be increased to match the "new" version. Things like this make it feel like the developers don't play their own game. It's one thing to accept weapon sunsetting as a necessary evil, but implementing it like this does not move the ball forward.

-SR

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 08:27 (63 days ago) @ Simpsons Rule

Bungie can't reasonably expect players to re-grind for the same weapons with the same perks. If the prior weapon roll can still be obtained in the "new" version of the gun, the "old" gun's cap needs to be increased to match the "new" version. Things like this make it feel like the developers don't play their own game. It's one thing to accept weapon sunsetting as a necessary evil, but implementing it like this does not move the ball forward.

It's quite simply what happens when you let metrics and data guide your game design, rather than fun and instinct.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:15 (63 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Bungie can't reasonably expect players to re-grind for the same weapons with the same perks. If the prior weapon roll can still be obtained in the "new" version of the gun, the "old" gun's cap needs to be increased to match the "new" version. Things like this make it feel like the developers don't play their own game. It's one thing to accept weapon sunsetting as a necessary evil, but implementing it like this does not move the ball forward.


It's quite simply what happens when you let metrics and data guide your game design, rather than fun and instinct.

Those two categories are both bad on their own. You need both. Metrics and data guide how the game is doing overall and helps you understand what is actually happening. Fun and instinct is great in the moment but it doesn't give you and idea of where you are going. You can't have one or the other, you have to have both.

Also, fun and instinct are a personally thing. You can just do something and assume everyone is going to have fun with a change. That is why for such large games like this that you have to have those metrics to guide the best fun for the most amount of people. Not gonna lie, I would not want to be a software engineer on a large online game. You are always pissing someone off.

Weapon sunsetting in action

by Simpsons Rule @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:31 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Not gonna lie, I would not want to be a software engineer on a large online game. You are always pissing someone off.

I don't envy the teams working on games like these. Reddit blew up because of the change to sprint and is having a collective aneurysm. I want the change reverted but I can appreciate how it could've gone unnoticed as a bug. On the other hand, sunsetting "old" weapons with identical "new" versions is an intentional design choice and it's stupid.

-SR

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:09 (63 days ago) @ Simpsons Rule

Not gonna lie, I would not want to be a software engineer on a large online game. You are always pissing someone off.


I don't envy the teams working on games like these. Reddit blew up because of the change to sprint and is having a collective aneurysm. I want the change reverted but I can appreciate how it could've gone unnoticed as a bug. On the other hand, sunsetting "old" weapons with identical "new" versions is an intentional design choice and it's stupid.

-SR

While I agree it's dumb, it was probably a byproduct of the overall choice of sunsetting. They probably couldn't have it two different ways so they just had to choose this was for an overall benefit. I get why it would piss people off, but at the same time it's only pissing off a small percentage of the community from what I can see so far. Community does not equal overly vocal people...

Weapon sunsetting in action

by Simpsons Rule @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:29 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I get why it would piss people off, but at the same time it's only pissing off a small percentage of the community from what I can see so far. Community does not equal overly vocal people...

I'm not sure how you could possibly make that determination.

-SR

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:41 (63 days ago) @ Simpsons Rule

I get why it would piss people off, but at the same time it's only pissing off a small percentage of the community from what I can see so far. Community does not equal overly vocal people...


I'm not sure how you could possibly make that determination.

-SR

In my head the rationalization is that DBO and reddit are only at best 10% of the destiny community. Am I way off base? And then I have an insight for how many people are complaining about it there and here. Mostly because People who REALLY care about farming their a god roll of a gun aren't casuals. Even the people who play a lot aren't farming rolls, that is evident from people who have said it around here.

In my mind, the percentage of people who have grinded hard for these god rolls and then also really care about keeping them around is a small percentage of the community. Just my thoughts, sorry if I made it sound like fact.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:06 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

In my mind, the percentage of people who have grinded hard for these god rolls and then also really care about keeping them around is a small percentage of the community. Just my thoughts, sorry if I made it sound like fact.

I think this is a reasonable assumption, and likely true.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:01 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

While I agree it's dumb, it was probably a byproduct of the overall choice of sunsetting. They probably couldn't have it two different ways so they just had to choose this was for an overall benefit.

They've already said they are going to fix it for already-earned raid weapons and armor, so there's no reason they can't do it for the world gear they re-issued.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 09:56 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Those two categories are both bad on their own. You need both. Metrics and data guide how the game is doing overall and helps you understand what is actually happening. Fun and instinct is great in the moment but it doesn't give you and idea of where you are going. You can't have one or the other, you have to have both.

I disagree. Metrics do not qualify the game experience. All that matters is the fun you have. Metrics tell you little if anything about the actual things people are feeling when they play your game. Fighting games are a great example. Super Turbo is in no way 'balanced', with tons of advantageous character match ups and many underused characters. The metrics would say it's a mess. And yet, somehow, it is one of, and some might consider THE, greatest fighting game of all time.

Also, fun and instinct are a personally thing. You can just do something and assume everyone is going to have fun with a change. That is why for such large games like this that you have to have those metrics to guide the best fun for the most amount of people.

Metrics do not measure fun.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 10:25 (63 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Those two categories are both bad on their own. You need both. Metrics and data guide how the game is doing overall and helps you understand what is actually happening. Fun and instinct is great in the moment but it doesn't give you and idea of where you are going. You can't have one or the other, you have to have both.


I disagree. Metrics do not qualify the game experience.

Okay, so we both agree that we disagree on this statement. PROGRESS!!

All that matters is the fun you have. Metrics tell you little if anything about the actual things people are feeling when they play your game.

Okay, so you keep taking this to a personal level. Meaning singular gamer. You can't do that when talking about metrics and a massively multiplayer game. Destiny (the thing we are talking about) uses metrics because it's one of the few tools you can use to rationally figure out how much people are having fun in a game where thousands upon thousands of gamers from all different walks of life and preferences are interacting with your game. How do you propose Bungie just makes sure every single Guardian has fun? All they can do is try to make it fun for the most amount of people they possible can. And Metrics allows you to try and figure that out.

Thus, you need both.

Fighting games are a great example. Super Turbo is in no way 'balanced', with tons of advantageous character match ups and many underused characters. The metrics would say it's a mess. And yet, somehow, it is one of, and some might consider THE, greatest fighting game of all time.

Thanks for using an example apart from what we were already talking about where I had to google it. I'm assuming you are talking about "Super Street Fighter II Turbo"? If so, that says that it was released in 1994... Yeah, of course you wouldn't need metrics for that game. It's literally a two person on a single TV fighting game.

Also, fun and instinct are a personally thing. You can just do something and assume everyone is going to have fun with a change. That is why for such large games like this that you have to have those metrics to guide the best fun for the most amount of people.


Metrics do not measure fun.

I agree, they don't. But metrics are the best way to figure out if something is working out and thus giving your players the most amount of fun.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:00 (63 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

Okay, so you keep taking this to a personal level. Meaning singular gamer. You can't do that when talking about metrics and a massively multiplayer game. Destiny (the thing we are talking about) uses metrics because it's one of the few tools you can use to rationally figure out how much people are having fun in a game…

This is not true. You cannot measure fun. A metric can only measure something tangible like "Players use this weapon most" or "tons of people are dying here". There is no "fun had" stat that can be collected.

Thanks for using an example apart from what we were already talking about where I had to google it. I'm assuming you are talking about "Super Street Fighter II Turbo"? If so, that says that it was released in 1994... Yeah, of course you wouldn't need metrics for that game. It's literally a two person on a single TV fighting game.

This is not correct. First of all it was arcade only for a long time. It was a game played by a community of players, both in person at arcades, and at tournaments around the world. The reach was just as 'massive'.

Metrics do not measure fun.


I agree, they don't. But metrics are the best way to figure out if something is working out and thus giving your players the most amount of fun.

Think about a weapon in Destiny. The weapon is overrepresented in the metrics. What would you do? Bungie would nerf. But if people presumably want to have fun, doesn't that mean that more people choosing the weapon indicates they find the weapon most fun? So if you nerf, you remove fun. Is it overpowered? The metric can't really even tell you that. You have to play it and find out what makes the weapon fun to use. And that is entirely experiential.

The games that interest me the most, that entertain me, that wow me, that make me remember them, all have a personal touch. Designing by metrics rounds that out to mediocrity. The best games have personality, not consensus. We value art for it's originality. For what's unexpected and unusual in a pleasurable way.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:48 (63 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Okay, so you keep taking this to a personal level. Meaning singular gamer. You can't do that when talking about metrics and a massively multiplayer game. Destiny (the thing we are talking about) uses metrics because it's one of the few tools you can use to rationally figure out how much people are having fun in a game…


This is not true. You cannot measure fun. A metric can only measure something tangible like "Players use this weapon most" or "tons of people are dying here". There is no "fun had" stat that can be collected.

Exactly, that's why you use metrics to point out those rough edges and then see if it's fun. If it is, you might have to balance out the rest of the game. If it's fun, but only for a select amount of people? Then you might need to change it. Metrics is a tool, not a be all fixer. Metrics just helps you identify may or may not need to be fixed.

Metrics do not measure fun.


I agree, they don't. But metrics are the best way to figure out if something is working out and thus giving your players the most amount of fun.


Think about a weapon in Destiny. The weapon is overrepresented in the metrics. What would you do? Bungie would nerf. But if people presumably want to have fun, doesn't that mean that more people choosing the weapon indicates they find the weapon most fun? So if you nerf, you remove fun. Is it overpowered? The metric can't really even tell you that. You have to play it and find out what makes the weapon fun to use. And that is entirely experiential.

Okay, here is an example. The bug for shackle shot? I am actually forgetting the name now. The hunter ultimate that pins people. Metrics showed that it was broken, because everyone who could use it was using it. It broke PvP in Destiny. Was it fun? Yeah, for those who had the ability to use it. But for everyone else it literally ruined PvP. Should Bungie not have noticed those metrics that showed that people were exclusively using it? No, they used the metrics to weigh what would be fun for everyone who plays this game. Yes, it's about fun, but fun for everyone, or at least the most people they can make happy. Cause, you can't make everyone happy.

The games that interest me the most, that entertain me, that wow me, that make me remember them, all have a personal touch. Designing by metrics rounds that out to mediocrity. The best games have personality, not consensus. We value art for it's originality. For what's unexpected and unusual in a pleasurable way.

Yep! And I partially agree with that based on what games we are talking about. But to not use a useful tool like metrics would be foolhardy. I'm not saying you should use a hammer to cut a piece of wood in half. I'm saying that Metrics are useful, don't just ignore it.

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Weapon sunsetting in action

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 06:55 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 07:04

It’s taken less than 12 hours for weapon sunsetting to rear it’s ugly head in a bad way.

Right now in-game it appears that existing raid loot from raids they said wouldn't be sunset has a max power of 1060. Only new raid loot has the higher available level.

Never mind, this is confirmed to be a bug: Cosmo clarifies

The world loot pool stuff still sucks.

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That’s a bug.

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 07:03 (63 days ago) @ squidnh3

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:49 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems

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+1

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 11:58 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

- No text -

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+1

by breitzen @, Kansas, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:00 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

Random Rolls really changed Destiny 2 in my mind. I can't imagine being a designer over there at Bungie and trying to balance all the things.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:03 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems

PvP and PvE could have been separate.

Balance doesn't matter in PvE. Monsters don't care if you trounce them. You could have had a curated set of guns in PvP to pick from when you enter the crucible, earned through feats of strength. Or grinding.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Spec ops Grunt @, Broklahoma, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:56 (63 days ago) @ Cody Miller

For the most part I agree but lets not pretend that gear snobbery does not exist among a significant part of the playerbase? Remember D1 how Gjallerhorn was basically seen as necessary in some groups to raid?

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 14:47 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

For the most part I agree but lets not pretend that gear snobbery does not exist among a significant part of the playerbase? Remember D1 how Gjallerhorn was basically seen as necessary in some groups to raid?

Okay yes, this is a good point, because gear acquisition is random.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Robot Chickens, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 16:17 (63 days ago) @ Cody Miller

For the most part I agree but lets not pretend that gear snobbery does not exist among a significant part of the playerbase? Remember D1 how Gjallerhorn was basically seen as necessary in some groups to raid?


Okay yes, this is a good point, because gear acquisition is random.

That's not really true anymore. Most exotics have quests. Pinnacle weapons were gated but had a path. Now Bungie treats God-rolls of season stuff as their pinnacles which would disappear if random rolls disappeared.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by squidnh3, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:12 (63 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems

Except that the weapons ostensibly most responsible for the sunsetting philosophy (Mountaintop, Recluse, Revoker) are static rolls. Even in the static rolls environment there was clear weapon "overuse" - Uriel's Gift anyone?

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:19 (63 days ago) @ squidnh3

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems


Except that the weapons ostensibly most responsible for the sunsetting philosophy (Mountaintop, Recluse, Revoker) are static rolls. Even in the static rolls environment there was clear weapon "overuse" - Uriel's Gift anyone?

This is actually part of why I liked Pinnacle weapons being so dominant in the crucible... I knew EXACTLY what I was up against. If I’m facing a player who has Not Forgotten and Mountaintops, I know exactly how MY Not Forgotten and Mountaintop will stack you against his. But as soon as I’m facing a Spare Rations or a mindbenders, I inevitably run into those “why does his mindbenders seem to kill from further away than mine?” moments.

I don’t actually think any of the pinnacle weapons were breaking PvP (on console), but if we assume I’m wrong on that, I’d much rather the solution be “give them all out to everyone” instead of sunsetting them into oblivion.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 12:54 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems


Except that the weapons ostensibly most responsible for the sunsetting philosophy (Mountaintop, Recluse, Revoker) are static rolls. Even in the static rolls environment there was clear weapon "overuse" - Uriel's Gift anyone?


This is actually part of why I liked Pinnacle weapons being so dominant in the crucible... I knew EXACTLY what I was up against.

I did too. It meant I was going to die a lot that game. I'm not that competitive in PvP, but I'm not bad either. Whenever I died to a pinnacle weapon I knew I was in for a rough game.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Pyromancy @, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 00:19 (63 days ago) @ squidnh3

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems

What if returning random rolls was strictly an internal decision, "backed" by particular parts of the community but championed by certain employees?
I feel like this was probably a fairly divisive issue internally at that time? I think there were maybe some articles or Tweets that can halfway back up the internal struggle, but I can't point to any specifically.


Except that the weapons ostensibly most responsible for the Sunsetting philosophy (Mountaintop, Recluse, Revoker) are static rolls. Even in the static rolls environment there was clear weapon "overuse" - Uriel's Gift anyone?

Again, I think that putting these pinnacle type guns in game, particularly in their Over Powered state within the Sandbox was an internal decision made by employees who are responsible for managing the ever-changing game world?
Who decided it? Why was it decided? What did they think would happen with these weapons in the Live environment? These guns didn't just magically appear in the game overnight.
IF, these weapons are the most responsible for the Sunsetting philosophy, why does it then sort of feel as if we as players are in a way being "punished" with Sunsetting since these weapons existence stem from intentionally made internal decisions or seemingly off the cuff changes in design philosophy?

Aren't Pinnacle weapons even sort of joked about/commentary between Saint-14 / Shaxx during the end of the Devil's Ruin quest if you hang around and listen?


Saint-14: Shaxx? The Crucible? What have you done with it?
Shaxx: Its not the Crucible by which You and I were forged.
Took Years, but Twilight Gap changed everything. After that day out there the Crucible went from a place where we settled our differences, to a place where we bettered ourselves.

S - 14: I heard you give out some Amazing weapons to your fighters.
Shaxx: Those weapons are earned with blood, sweat, and tears.
S - 14: Are you sure your fighters are bettering themselves, or chasing hardware?
Shaxx: Listen, even Guardians need to get paid ever once and a while.
S - 14: *Heuughh*, When you put it that way you sound like that sad lonely Rat man who lives downstairs
Shaxx: The Drifter? Keep your enemies close right? Watch him for us
S - 14: I was shocked to see Eris Morn again, She is not as she was.
Shaxx: She represents the best of us, Ghostless, and stronger than you and me both
S - 14: Perhaps we could get her a bigger gun? She would not have to carry that rock all the time.

Speaking of guns, ah, tell me more about these weapons you’ve crafted, I’m not allowed to earn them.
I have heard you made one for Young Redrix, ah, Redrix’s Claymore?
Shaxx: Broadsword.
S - 14: Whatever. There was a Handcannon as well? You made one for Josef, ah, Luna’s Howl?
Shaxx: Yes, Luna was his dog. She passed on the moon fighting Hive.
S - 14: Those bastards. I’m glad you killed their king
Shaxx: Are these questions leading anywhere Saint?
S - 14: Yes! The long rifle you designed, The Revoker, whats the story behind it? What does it do?
Shaxx: It shoots bullets, Saint, Its a gun ”


I mean, doesn’t this dialogue sort of parallel our Crucible and “chasing hardware”?
Can we trace back to a Root Cause of any kind? And no, it was not Shaxx.

I know, it is never that simple, nor cut-and-dried. Development as you go, over time, is messy. And there may not be direct cause->effect with these. But why does it seem like in some ways the onus for Sunsetting is passed back to us?

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 03:25 (63 days ago) @ Pyromancy

Bungie should have had enough faith in their design to ignore the community on that one. It's only caused more and more problems


What if returning random rolls was strictly an internal decision, "backed" by particular parts of the community but championed by certain employees?
I feel like this was probably a fairly divisive issue internally at that time? I think there were maybe some articles or Tweets that can halfway back up the internal struggle, but I can't point to any specifically.


Except that the weapons ostensibly most responsible for the Sunsetting philosophy (Mountaintop, Recluse, Revoker) are static rolls. Even in the static rolls environment there was clear weapon "overuse" - Uriel's Gift anyone?


Again, I think that putting these pinnacle type guns in game, particularly in their Over Powered state within the Sandbox was an internal decision made by employees who are responsible for managing the ever-changing game world?
Who decided it? Why was it decided? What did they think would happen with these weapons in the Live environment? These guns didn't just magically appear in the game overnight.
IF, these weapons are the most responsible for the Sunsetting philosophy, why does it then sort of feel as if we as players are in a way being "punished" with Sunsetting since these weapons existence stem from intentionally made internal decisions or seemingly off the cuff changes in design philosophy?

Aren't Pinnacle weapons even sort of joked about/commentary between Saint-14 / Shaxx during the end of the Devil's Ruin quest if you hang around and listen?


Saint-14: Shaxx? The Crucible? What have you done with it?
Shaxx: Its not the Crucible by which You and I were forged.
Took Years, but Twilight Gap changed everything. After that day out there the Crucible went from a place where we settled our differences, to a place where we bettered ourselves.

S - 14: I heard you give out some Amazing weapons to your fighters.
Shaxx: Those weapons are earned with blood, sweat, and tears.
S - 14: Are you sure your fighters are bettering themselves, or chasing hardware?
Shaxx: Listen, even Guardians need to get paid ever once and a while.
S - 14: *Heuughh*, When you put it that way you sound like that sad lonely Rat man who lives downstairs
Shaxx: The Drifter? Keep your enemies close right? Watch him for us
S - 14: I was shocked to see Eris Morn again, She is not as she was.
Shaxx: She represents the best of us, Ghostless, and stronger than you and me both
S - 14: Perhaps we could get her a bigger gun? She would not have to carry that rock all the time.

Speaking of guns, ah, tell me more about these weapons you’ve crafted, I’m not allowed to earn them.
I have heard you made one for Young Redrix, ah, Redrix’s Claymore?
Shaxx: Broadsword.
S - 14: Whatever. There was a Handcannon as well? You made one for Josef, ah, Luna’s Howl?
Shaxx: Yes, Luna was his dog. She passed on the moon fighting Hive.
S - 14: Those bastards. I’m glad you killed their king
Shaxx: Are these questions leading anywhere Saint?
S - 14: Yes! The long rifle you designed, The Revoker, whats the story behind it? What does it do?
Shaxx: It shoots bullets, Saint, Its a gun ”

I mean, doesn’t this dialogue sort of parallel our Crucible and “chasing hardware”?
Can we trace back to a Root Cause of any kind? And no, it was not Shaxx.

I know, it is never that simple, nor cut-and-dried. Development as you go, over time, is messy. And there may not be direct cause->effect with these. But why does it seem like in some ways the onus for Sunsetting is passed back to us?

All good points.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that part of what you’re driving at here is the internal conflict, or lack of internal consistency within Bungie. I’m often struck by the way previously learned lessons seem to be “unlearned” not long after. For example, Bungie has in the past posted TWABs that explicitly discussed the problem with having guns that break the ammo economy, and how they can throw a monkey wrench into the entire crucible as well as PvE encounters (this was specifically in response to Ice Breaker and Black Hammer). Fast forward a couple years, and Bungie goes ahead and reintroduces Black Hammer with its original ammo regeneration abilities, followed by Revoker. Sure enough, Whisper of the Worm is eventually nerfed into the ground, and Revoker is held up as one of the reasons why we can’t have Pinnacle Weapons anymore, AND why sunsetting needs to happen.

Another example is the recent Sniper Rifle buff and nerf. Snipers were under-utilized in PvE, so Bungie buffed then. At the same time, Bungie releases a raid that features several boss fights where the boss is 100 feet away, retreating backwards down a hall or way up in the air. Naturally, the snipers are now ideal weapons for these encounters, so players start using them a lot. And Bungie’s reaction is “wait, we don’t like how much people are using sniper rifles all of a sudden, so we’re going to revert the buff”. Like... what? Weren’t they unhappy with that situation just a few months earlier, and now they’re intentionally going back to it?

I have a theory based on nothing more than my gut feelings (so take this with a gigantic grain of salt), but I get the impression that Bungie isn’t particularly good at knowing which of their guns are going to be really great. Hence the discrepancy between the effectiveness of a gun like Oxygen vs something like Recluse. I know there will always be outliers and surprises, but I think the sandbox team could save themselves a lot of trouble if they did a better job balancing their weapons out of the gate. Anyone who got Recluse back when it’s original form could tell within a couple hours (if not less) that is absolutely trounced all other short-mid range PvE primary weapons by a mile. It wasn’t subtle, nor did you have to be a top-tier player to see the difference. But they shipped it, left it in it’s overpowered state for ~6 months, and now it gets held up as one of the other justifications for sunsetting.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 11:19 (62 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Another example is the recent Sniper Rifle buff and nerf. Snipers were under-utilized in PvE, so Bungie buffed then. At the same time, Bungie releases a raid that features several boss fights where the boss is 100 feet away, retreating backwards down a hall or way up in the air. Naturally, the snipers are now ideal weapons for these encounters, so players start using them a lot. And Bungie’s reaction is “wait, we don’t like how much people are using sniper rifles all of a sudden, so we’re going to revert the buff”. Like... what? Weren’t they unhappy with that situation just a few months earlier, and now they’re intentionally going back to it?

Metrics everybody.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Thursday, June 11, 2020, 11:23 (62 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Another example is the recent Sniper Rifle buff and nerf. Snipers were under-utilized in PvE, so Bungie buffed then. At the same time, Bungie releases a raid that features several boss fights where the boss is 100 feet away, retreating backwards down a hall or way up in the air. Naturally, the snipers are now ideal weapons for these encounters, so players start using them a lot. And Bungie’s reaction is “wait, we don’t like how much people are using sniper rifles all of a sudden, so we’re going to revert the buff”. Like... what? Weren’t they unhappy with that situation just a few months earlier, and now they’re intentionally going back to it?


Metrics everybody.

Kind of, except even if it was 100% metric driven, it doesn’t make sense. Their metrics showed people weren’t using Snipers so they buffer them. Then their metrics showed people were using snipers way more than other specials, so... why not split the difference? It just looks like a silly decision from any angle.

Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by TheOmegaClown, Thursday, July 02, 2020, 07:28 (41 days ago) @ Spec ops Grunt

Random rolls were one of the few things that got me re-interested in this anemic game in the first place.

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Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Friday, July 03, 2020, 06:04 (40 days ago) @ TheOmegaClown

Random rolls were one of the few things that got me re-interested in this anemic game in the first place.

I get it. A lot of people love Vegas.

Adding random rolls back was a mistake

by TheOmegaClown, Saturday, July 04, 2020, 08:03 (39 days ago) @ Kermit

Also the possibility of finding a weapon that feels good but also has useful rolls. I love using my Every Waking Moment SMG, but if it only came with disruption break and auto loading holster I would never use it. And since it comes in multiple rolls, I can use my demolitionist roll on my grenade specced warlock build, and swashbuckler roll on my hunter.

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Speaking of Sunset'n: DIM inventory check

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| \[T]/, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 20:09 (63 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY
edited by INSANEdrive, Wednesday, June 10, 2020, 20:39

Sat down this evening to see about what I may keep once sunset, and what I may get rid of. D.I.M of course helps with this.

I put in;

sunsetsafter:=11 is:weapon is:invault

My result?

263 Weapons. Oof. 306 when including inventory, though it's not totally accurate, as it's counting raid weapons such as those from the Garden. Still though. WOOF. How many total weapons alone are in my vault?

is:weapon not:exotic is:legendary  is:invault

327. That means only 64 Weapons which are currently in my vault will be spared into Season 12. That's... 80% of the Weapons in my Vault.... *Actual Literal Gasp* HOLY SHIT!

So what about armor? Oh Man. Well, spoilers. It's basically a total liquidation too.

sunsetsafter:=11 is:armor is:invault

126 Items. Dim is showing me both V1 & V2.0 Style Armors, so it might be off, but... MAN. I kept these as they have combos of enhanced perks, a high stat of 60 (OR MORE!), plus some perk combos that are now impossible to have with elemental restrictions. When I include the armors not in my vault, that is 166. Keep in mind this is for all three characters. I put in;

is:armor not:exotic is:legendary

To see how much legendary style armors I have. It's 225. That means, if this is correct, I will have 59 armors that shall be spared into the next season. If my math is right, that means 75% of my Armors will be no longer useful for not only pinnacle content, but as we move along into further seasons. Shoot the "darkness" public on Io right now is like... 1020 or 1030, or something. Eh.

WOOF! What a freek'n BLOODBATH!

[image]

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Edit: I knew it was coming, but seeing it now hurts. I'm... I'm going to miss useing my Ol'reliable. ಠ_ಥ

[image]

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Speaking of Sunset'n: DIM inventory check

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, June 11, 2020, 04:55 (62 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

I too fell in love with a Void auto-loading holster rapid-fire shotgun. Like hell I'll shard it, though.

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