I was looking through some old artwork...

...and I ran across what might have been used as the inspiration for the Tree of Silver Wings (released during GDC 2013, more than 7 years ago):

https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/11

It's intriguing where they're mining for new content!

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...and I ran across what might have been used as the inspiration for the Tree of Silver Wings (released during GDC 2013, more than 7 years ago):

https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/11

It's intriguing where they're mining for new content!

Looks like JJ Abrams stole Darth Planet from Bungie!

https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/20

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I dunno, that’s just a stylized Death Star to begin with.

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Sometimes I wish the classes were more unique. These could have been Guardians or maybe not.

https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/29

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It's intriguing where they're mining for new content!

Aren’t they just looking in our vaults and mining that? ;p

Jokes aside, I love a lot of that artwork. Gorgeous stuff.

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...and I ran across what might have been used as the inspiration for the Tree of Silver Wings (released during GDC 2013, more than 7 years ago):

https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/11

It's intriguing where they're mining for new content!

One of the things that's always intrigued me about Destiny is just how much of the content has been around since the beginning. Like how the Iron Lords or Seven Seraphs were just the names of guns or an odd faction symbol that Bungie made shirts of for themselves years and years before they became part of the story. The Tree of the Silver Wings, likewise, has been around, in game, since The Dark Below attached to the Titan Exotic Ruin Wings.

In the Garden grows a tree of silver wings. The leaves are ruin, the bark disaster. Of the seeds we do not speak.

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One of the things that's always intrigued me about Destiny is just how much of the content has been around since the beginning. Like how the Iron Lords or Seven Seraphs were just the names of guns or an odd faction symbol that Bungie made shirts of for themselves years and years before they became part of the story.

That's because many WERE a part of the story before the game was 'rebooted'. There was voice and motion capture for Osiris in 2013 for example (not the same actor who did him for Des2ny, at least I don't think. I'd have to check).

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

So it got Rise of Skywalkered? Competing versions resulting in a creative Frankenstein that none of the creators are satisfied with?

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

So it got Rise of Skywalkered? Competing versions resulting in a creative Frankenstein that none of the creators are satisfied with?

I don't know what happened with rise of Skywalker.

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

So it got Rise of Skywalkered? Competing versions resulting in a creative Frankenstein that none of the creators are satisfied with?

I don't know what happened with rise of Skywalker.

The skinny seems to be that JJ had his original rough cut which Kathleen Kennedy hated (because it undermined or undid a bunch of stuff from The Last Jedi, which Is the film KK had the most creative input on). So KK started overruling a lot of JJs decisions, and all kinds of friction started. Meanwhile it was getting tougher and tougher to ignore the downward slide that Star Wars has taking under KK, so Bob Iger himself got involved and started making creative calls that neither JJ or KK liked. Supposedly, JJ even pulled George Lucas into the mix at one point, going to him for help. Most of lucas’s ideas were apparently scrapped because JJ brought him into the mix relatively late, and the film was already monstrously over budget due to unprecedented amounts of reshoots. Word was that none of the various cuts of the film tested very well, and the best they were able to do was simply cut out the worst parts of all the various edits and stitch together what was left (for example, they actually filmed an explanation for how the emperor returned, but test audiences hated it so much that they just cut it out and left it an un-answered question).

A lot of this is stuff that should be considered “rumour”, although I’d say it’s safe to consider it loosely accurate at the very least. The same sources that reported all this were also providing plot summaries as early as August/September 2019, all of which proved to be more or less correct. They were leaking updated versions of the plot as various changes were supposedly being made, which can’t be proven, but their final summaries in the weeks just before release were bang on. And certain details that were supposedly cut, like how the emperor returned, were later confirmed in either the comics or one of the new novels (I can’t remember).

Long story short, a steady stream of leaks in the ~8 months leading up to the release of the film painted a picture of a 3-way war behind the scenes during filming. These leakers got so many other details right that I’d bet there is at least some truth to it. JJ in particular was supposedly heartbroken by the end result. He didn’t want to do the movie at all, and only agreed on the condition that he could do it his way. Sounds like the whole thing turned into a giant nightmare.

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

So it got Rise of Skywalkered? Competing versions resulting in a creative Frankenstein that none of the creators are satisfied with?

I don't know what happened with rise of Skywalker.

The skinny seems to be that JJ had his original rough cut which Kathleen Kennedy hated (because it undermined or undid a bunch of stuff from The Last Jedi, which Is the film KK had the most creative input on). So KK started overruling a lot of JJs decisions, and all kinds of friction started. Meanwhile it was getting tougher and tougher to ignore the downward slide that Star Wars has taking under KK, so Bob Iger himself got involved and started making creative calls that neither JJ or KK liked.

Oh. So nothing like Destiny then. If the producers had stepped in and forced Jason Jones to make decisions, the mess could have been avoided.

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I would like to point out that should the supercut ever leak (hint hint), that it was NOT Joe's story, but a bastardization of it.

So it got Rise of Skywalkered? Competing versions resulting in a creative Frankenstein that none of the creators are satisfied with?

I don't know what happened with rise of Skywalker.

The skinny seems to be that JJ had his original rough cut which Kathleen Kennedy hated (because it undermined or undid a bunch of stuff from The Last Jedi, which Is the film KK had the most creative input on). So KK started overruling a lot of JJs decisions, and all kinds of friction started. Meanwhile it was getting tougher and tougher to ignore the downward slide that Star Wars has taking under KK, so Bob Iger himself got involved and started making creative calls that neither JJ or KK liked.

Oh. So nothing like Destiny then.

Was the supercut a bastardization of Joe’s story because of other creative input, or was it Joe doing a poor job of summarizing his own story?

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Was the supercut a bastardization of Joe’s story because of other creative input, or was it Joe doing a poor job of summarizing his own story?

Jason constantly wanted changes to Joe's story, even though script was signed off on, casting was done, and motion capture was filmed. What's in the supercut was to appease Jason, but of course it was cobbled together because the groundwork was already laid.

Imagine having the Queen of the Reef talking to you, and suddenly her voice turns into an assistant's because a point was changed and you didn't record what you needed with the original actress. Cutting from the motion captured animation to a storyboard because that part changed. For a game that's supposed to ship really soon, people freaked out seeing this.

i was told it was essentially Jason's story. But the blame was placed on Joe. At this point the #StatenCut is whatever he had in 2011.

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We haven't heard of Jason Jones' side of the story of Destiny 1's development, and until that happens I will reserve judgement hearing only one side of the story.

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We haven't heard of Jason Jones' side of the story of Destiny 1's development, and until that happens I will reserve judgement hearing only one side of the story.

You won't ever hear from Jason or anyone else about Destiny 1.

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Test audiences? For Star Wars? That seems like a risk they would never take…

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Test audiences? For Star Wars? That seems like a risk they would never take…

Abrams has specifically said in interviews they didn't do general audience test screenings for Rise of Skywalker. So unless he's lying…

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Test audiences? For Star Wars? That seems like a risk they would never take…

Abrams has specifically said in interviews they didn't do general audience test screenings for Rise of Skywalker. So unless he's lying…

I’m fuzzy on the details now, but if I remember correctly there was other information that contradicted him (something about the test screenings being done with other Disney and studio employees, while JJ was talking about typical “randos from the public” test screenings... but my memory is fuzzy on all that). Also, he has explicitly lied about his own movies in the past (comberbatch not playing Khan, for example).

Also, I’m pretty sure that quote about no test audiences was included in a laid-for puff piece, and directly responding to the rumours about the test audiences. I find it totally believable that he’d say something like that to save face, given the pressure on him and the crew to deliver a massive hit. They couldn’t afford bad PR.

All that said, it’s totally possible that there were no test screenings. All I know is that the sources who discussed the screenings also disclosed plot details revealed in those supposed screenings, and the plot details turned out to be accurate.

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I’ll just point to the more obvious:

Would anyone willingly make The Rise of Skywalker? Surely that’s not the movie anyone wanted to make.

That’s not meant to be the put down it might seem. Whether you like it or hate it, that movie is a fucking mess.

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I’ll just point to the more obvious:

Would anyone willingly make The Rise of Skywalker? Surely that’s not the movie anyone wanted to make.

That’s not meant to be the put down it might seem. Whether you like it or hate it, that movie is a fucking mess.

Agreed. It’s pretty clear to me that nobody got to realize their “vision” with that one.

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and the recipe book was nowhere to be found.

The next 10 years of Star Wars is going to be very interesting. Between Filoni being a bigger and bigger influence (and Favreau too) and Disney trying to mash it into an MCU-like package, it's weird, but I'm not sure what I want from SW going forward. Maybe just a break? But I'm excited for more Mando? Ahhhh it's so confusing!

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I just want more Star Wars. I want a world where someone like Filoni can just play in that universe without the pressure of it having to be the biggest thing ever, and without it all having to fit into some Avengers-like master plan. I know that’s not likely to happen.

I think most of the old EU of Star Wars is garbage, but I still like that approach to handling it. Just let creators play in that universe.

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It lit my enthusiasm for SW post-Rise of Skywalker in a way I didn't think it could be lit anymore

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It’s been an interesting watch. It has convinced me that Dave Filoni needs more say in the overall direction of Star Wars (although The Clone Wars and Rebels already had me convinced of that).

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The same channels that provided accurate Rise of Skywalker story leaks last year are now talking about a supposed plan that is bouncing around inside Lucasfilm. First, I should say that I have no idea if the sources for these leaks are the same sources who provided accurate info last year, or different sources being reported by the same channels. And even if these sources are accurate, the plan they are talking about is not a done deal.

So anyway, apparently there’s a group within Lucasfilm who is pushing to have the Disney sequel trilogy (Episides 7, 8, and 9) written out of cannon. They have a plot device in mind which would allow them to relegate the sequel trilogy to an alternate timeline. The movies would then get pumped into the same “legends” category that Kathleen Kennedy created when Disney took over. When KK was put in charge of Lucasfilm, she decided that all the Star Wars books, comics, and video games should no longer be considered cannon (I actually thought that was a good idea, but it pissed off a lot of fans for obvious reasons). So she came up with this “legends” label that got slapped on all the expanded universe content. She would later go on to complain that making the sequel trilogy was really hard because unlike Game of Thrones or Harry Potter, Lucasfilm didn’t have books to draw from (Lol). There’s a certain irony to the possibility that her Star Wars films might suffer the same fate as all the expanded universe works that she tossed aside.

Anyway, the actual plot device is supposedly “The Veil of the Force” which is a sort of inter-dimensional portal through time and space. I haven’t seen the Clone Wars cartoons, but it was apparently introduced there.

Personally, I have no idea what to make of this whole idea. On the one hand, episodes 7-9 are such a clusterfuck that it might not be a bad idea to wipe the slate clean and make way for a more cohesive vision to step in (that’s essentially the same reason I thought it was a good idea to wipe all the expanded universe content from cannon). On the flip side, for better or for worse, we only had 1 shot at seeing Luke, Han, and Leia’s story continue on the big screen. Carry Fisher is gone now, they’ll never get Harrison Ford to agree to another film, and I doubt Mark Hammil trusts Disney enough to participate in more of their Star Wars projects (he and John Boyega have all but given up hiding their feelings about these recent films). So maybe it isn’t worth all the confusion and outrage of wiping those films from cannon? But then I think about all the goodwill it would earn from the super hardcore Start Wars fans, and I could maybe see Disney start leaning towards the retcon. At this point, they need those passionate hardcore fans back on board, because Star Wars merch is dead in the water, and that’s where the real money is made. Disney is struggling to get 3rd parties even interested in licensing deals for sequel trilogy merch. And there’s always the possibility of someone like Filonni continuing Luke, Han, and Leia’s story in an animated series. At this point, who knows.

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So, spoilers for Rebels here, if anyone cares.

There’sa decent way to handle it, and it centers on Ahsoka.

The main character of Rebels essentially went back in time and pulled Ahsoka from like three years ago out of a duel with Vader into the current time, saving her. Ahsoka was Anakin’s padawan during The Clone Wars, if anyone didn’t know. She then goes on to be some sort of ultra force user (scholar, maybe is a better word). It’s not really clear exactly what she’s doing, but it’s clear that it’s important in the grand scheme of the galaxy. She shows up in all white with white lightsabers.

They could use that as the fracture point. Ahsoka dies to Vader and leads to the current sequels, Ahsoka lives and does whatever she’s up to and prevents them from happening.

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This is the problem with all this crap. You don't need to logically explain all this shit. Just make a damn movie. Batman Begins didn't have to invent some kind of alternate universe portal to explain why none of that stuff happened in Batman '89. Write a good story. Tell a good story.

The 'canon' can be such a damaging concept to storytelling. Yes, coming from Mr. Reach is not canon that might sound ironic, but I've wised up and don't take that position anymore (plus the site was an elaborate joke really, none of us actually cared that much).

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I completely agree. That’s what I really want from Star Wars. Embrace the comic book model and just let people play in that universe and tell interesting stories.

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I completely agree. That’s what I really want from Star Wars. Embrace the comic book model and just let people play in that universe and tell interesting stories.

I’d be cool with that if everyone just steered clear of the original characters... at least the main ones. For every SW novel that told a great story using Luke Skywalker, there were at least 10 awful ones that fucked up the trajectory of the character and his whole contemporary part of the story.

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I completely agree. That’s what I really want from Star Wars. Embrace the comic book model and just let people play in that universe and tell interesting stories.

I’d be cool with that if everyone just steered clear of the original characters... at least the main ones. For every SW novel that told a great story using Luke Skywalker, there were at least 10 awful ones that fucked up the trajectory of the character and his whole contemporary part of the story.

Absolutely this. The Expanded Universe basically turned Luke into Yoda 2.0, which hey - was cool, but the last thing we need is ANOTHER Super Hero using some sort of "Magic" on screen. Plus... folks grew up with that trio. So many toys and moments of imagination and inspiration... it's probably better not to touch that.

But hey! It's BIG Universe, and EVERYONE has a name. EVERYONE has a story.

Short short version: Give me more of this (if you know, you know), with some original characters and I'm so there.

P.S.: Rumor Mill also saying that Jon Favreau & George Lucas are not fans of the "sequels" either. If that's true, I'd expect these rumors to have more weight, as... I mean... it's Jon "MCU" Favreau. Plus one large reason Kennedy is in the position she has is because it was requested by George Lucas during the 4 Billion Sign off.
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Edit: (Not Mine, but something I kept from a post I found. In the event someone here hasn't watched the last four episodes of Clone Wars, this Description of Vader ("Anakin Skywalker") is pretty on point of what I mean when I say, in purposeful few words, "THIS".)

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker, forever: The first dawn of light in your universe brings pain. The light burns you. It will always burn you. Part of you will always lie upon black glass sand beside a lake of fire while flames chew upon your flesh. You can hear yourself breathing. It comes hard, and harsh, and it scrapes nerves already raw, but you cannot stop it. You can never stop it. You cannot even slow it down. You don’t even have lungs anymore. Mechanisms hardwired into your chest breathe for you. They will pump oxygen into your bloodstream forever. Lord Vader? Lord Vader, can you hear me?

And you can’t, not in the way you once did. Sensors in the shell that prisons your head trickle meaning directly into your brain.

You open your scorched-pale eyes; optical sensors integrate light and shadow into a hideous simulacrum of the world around you.

Or perhaps the simulacrum is perfect, and it is the world that is hideous.

Padme? Are you here? Are you all right? you try to say, but another voice speaks for you, out from the vocabulator that serves you for burned-away lips and tongue and throat.

“Padme? Are you here? Are you all right?”

I’m very sorry, Lord Vader. I’m afraid she died. It seems in your anger, you killed her.

This burns hotter than the lava had.

“No…no, it is not possible!”

You love her. You have always loved her. You could never will her death.

Never.

But you remember…

You remember all of it.

You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your heart to slay. You remember the cold venom in Vader’s blood. You remember the furnace of Vader’s fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth…

And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

That it was all you. Is you.

Only you.

You did it.

You killed her.

You killed her because, finally, when you could have saved her, when you could have gone away with her, when you could have been thinking about her, you were thinking about yourself…

It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the dark side, the final cruelty of the Sith-

Because now your self is all you will ever have.

And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left.

Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Forever.

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P.S.: Rumor Mill also saying that Jon Favreau & George Lucas are not fans of the "sequels" either. If that's true, I'd expect these rumors to have more weight, as... I mean... it's Jon "MCU" Favreau. Plus one large reason Kennedy is in the position she has is because it was requested by George Lucas during the 4 Billion Sign off.[/size]

Yes, supposedly KK is all but out of the picture now (her contract officially ends next year, but she’s already breaking off contact with her day-to-day associates at the office, according to sources. Also, the big “future of Star Wars” meeting that took place at Disney a couple weeks ago was held without her). But word is that she’s fighting tooth and nail to prevent this retcon plan from going forward, as it could be seen as “undoing her legacy”. I’ve heard similar reports that Favreau, Filonni, and Lucas all have similarly negative opinions of the sequel trilogy, as well as the overall direction that has been taken for the franchise. I’d be optimistic about the future of Star Wars with Favreau and/or Filonni at the helm. I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Another guy I’d love to see in a creative leadership role is Sam Witwer. He’s the actor who played Starkiller in The Force Unleased games, and the voice actor for Darth Maul in the Clone Wars animated series. Just listening to this guy talk about Star Wars gets me giddy and excited:

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I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Rian Johnson understood the spirit of star wars better than just about anybody man. At least in my opinion.

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I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Rian Johnson understood the spirit of star wars better than just about anybody man. At least in my opinion.

Agreed.

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folded into an exquisite origami recreation of Porkins’ X-wing starfighter, exploded in a ball of fire.

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folded into an exquisite origami recreation of Porkins’ X-wing starfighter, exploded in a ball of fire.

It was just an okay-ish card. I never put it in my decks.

[image]

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I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Rian Johnson understood the spirit of star wars better than just about anybody man. At least in my opinion.

I think that’s a tough argument to sell based on how TLJ handles character growth so atrociously. I’m not a hater of TLJ... there’s a lot I love about that movie. But the character development is handled terribly. At its core, SW is a hero’s journey, and TLJ fails to deliver on that front in any way, IMO.

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I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Rian Johnson understood the spirit of star wars better than just about anybody man. At least in my opinion.

I think that’s a tough argument to sell based on how TLJ handles character growth so atrociously. I’m not a hater of TLJ... there’s a lot I love about that movie. But the character development is handled terribly. At its core, SW is a hero’s journey, and TLJ fails to deliver on that front in any way, IMO.

Did we watch the same movie? Every character had a very clear arc of growth that made sense both logically and thematically. The movie was messy, but at the end of the day the character growth was completely nailed. And if you think Luke's story in Last Jedi was incompatible with the heroes journey… I just don't know what to say.

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I think they understand the heart and spirit if the franchise far better than Kennedy, RJ, or JJ ever did.

Rian Johnson understood the spirit of star wars better than just about anybody man. At least in my opinion.

I think that’s a tough argument to sell based on how TLJ handles character growth so atrociously. I’m not a hater of TLJ... there’s a lot I love about that movie. But the character development is handled terribly. At its core, SW is a hero’s journey, and TLJ fails to deliver on that front in any way, IMO.

Did we watch the same movie? Every character had a very clear arc of growth that made sense both logically and thematically. The movie was messy, but at the end of the day the character growth was completely nailed. And if you think Luke's story in Last Jedi was incompatible with the heroes journey… I just don't know what to say.

Luke’s part of the story only makes sense if we ignore who Luke Skywalker is in the original trilogy. If he were a new character invented for this movie, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Mathew Stover nails post-RotJ Luke better than anyone in his novel “Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor”. (Tiny spoilers incoming). At the end of the novel, after Luke stops the antagonist without fighting him, the antagonist says “I knew the Jedi of old, and you are greater than any of them. Unlike them, you do not fear the dark.” That is not the Luke of TLJ. I’m all in for a story than shows the original hero continuing to grow or overcome his existing weaknesses. But TLJ didn’t do that. It invented a whole new character and called it Luke Skywalker.

Similar problem with Poe. His character in TLJ just isn’t the character that was introduced in TFA. He was already one of the most competent, capable, and trusted leaders of the resistance. RJ changed him into a hot-headed firebrand for the purposes of his plot. Finn just repeats his arch from the first film. He’s already shown that he was willing to dedicate himself and even sacrifice himself for the greater good of need be. Rey’s arch is horrible from any perspective. She starts the movie already knowing better than anyone else, and that’s her position by the end as well. She develops her skills a bit with Luke, but that’s all. There’s a reason JJ felt the need to show Rey training with Leia early in TRoS, even though she should have been well past all that by that point in the series. It’s because RJ totally skipped that part of her story. Similar issue with Kylo. He decides that he knows enough. In his own words, “forget the past... kill it if you have to”. That line is a great line to come from the villain in a Star Wars film, because it’s so anti-Star Wars. But Kylo isn’t exactly a villain, and the film itself seems to embody that message, rather than counter it.

Basically, I think TLJ is a great movie if I watch it as a stand-alone film. But as soon as I try to fit it into the larger Star Wars story, it becomes a train wreck. And I think that’s on purpose. RJ has basically said that he wanted to tell a story that flips a lot of expectations on their heads. The problem with subverting expectations are all costs is that sometimes expectations exist because we have an idea of who these characters are: RJ’s story is one where the heroes and villains of the past are discarded or tossed aside, with the exception of Leia and Holdo, while Holdo specifically displays very poor leadership while preaching about leadership. Still, at least that part of the plot shows the older generation trying to teach a lesson of real significance to the younger generation. Most of the film is about the youth deciding that they’re already better than their elders, and dismissing them (I didn’t even get into Rose lecturing Finn on how to be a hero, even though he’s already shown he has what it takes multiple times, including the very act he was about to commit before she interrupted him and told him that they need to win by protecting what they love, which is literally the exact thing he was about to do... ugh). It’s actually quite anti-Star Wars.

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Luke’s part of the story only makes sense if we ignore who Luke Skywalker is in the original trilogy. If he were a new character invented for this movie, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Mathew Stover nails post-RotJ Luke better than anyone in his novel “Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor”. (Tiny spoilers incoming). At the end of the novel, after Luke stops the antagonist without fighting him, the antagonist says “I knew the Jedi of old, and you are greater than any of them. Unlike them, you do not fear the dark.” That is not the Luke of TLJ. I’m all in for a story than shows the original hero continuing to grow or overcome his existing weaknesses. But TLJ didn’t do that. It invented a whole new character and called it Luke Skywalker.

Similar problem with Poe. His character in TLJ just isn’t the character that was introduced in TFA. He was already one of the most competent, capable, and trusted leaders of the resistance. RJ changed him into a hot-headed firebrand for the purposes of his plot. Finn just repeats his arch from the first film. He’s already shown that he was willing to dedicate himself and even sacrifice himself for the greater good of need be. Rey’s arch is horrible from any perspective. She starts the movie already knowing better than anyone else, and that’s her position by the end as well. She develops her skills a bit with Luke, but that’s all. There’s a reason JJ felt the need to show Rey training with Leia early in TRoS, even though she should have been well past all that by that point in the series. It’s because RJ totally skipped that part of her story. Similar issue with Kylo. He decides that he knows enough. In his own words, “forget the past... kill it if you have to”. That line is a great line to come from the villain in a Star Wars film, because it’s so anti-Star Wars. But Kylo isn’t exactly a villain, and the film itself seems to embody that message, rather than counter it.

Basically, I think TLJ is a great movie if I watch it as a stand-alone film. But as soon as I try to fit it into the larger Star Wars story, it becomes a train wreck. And I think that’s on purpose. RJ has basically said that he wanted to tell a story that flips a lot of expectations on their heads. The problem with subverting expectations are all costs is that sometimes expectations exist because we have an idea of who these characters are: RJ’s story is one where the heroes and villains of the past are discarded or tossed aside, with the exception of Leia and Holdo, while Holdo specifically displays very poor leadership while preaching about leadership. Still, at least that part of the plot shows the older generation trying to teach a lesson of real significance to the younger generation. Most of the film is about the youth deciding that they’re already better than their elders, and dismissing them (I didn’t even get into Rose lecturing Finn on how to be a hero, even though he’s already shown he has what it takes multiple times, including the very act he was about to commit before she interrupted him and told him that they need to win by protecting what they love, which is literally the exact thing he was about to do... ugh). It’s actually quite anti-Star Wars.

There it is. There it is. Have I mentioned how much I respectably envy your capacity to textually articulate? Quite a feat, as "envy" in any capacity is not really my modus operandi. I know what I see, but describing what I see in few words can be often... challenging. This above was what I was trying to describe in the past when I mentioned "middle of an arc".

I would like to note; I think your description details well why "The Last Jedi" has proven to be so decisive. It's, among its flaws, a good movie that also happens to be a LOUSY Starwars movie by fundamentally disrespecting everything Starwars while using aspects of Starwars. It's TWO THINGS! The Schrödinger's cat of Movies! Yet, that call on its quality we both just made doesn't matter. We could explain why again and again, and it won't mean a thing in the end, I think. All that matters is what a person brings with them when they watch. Since it's STARWARS, many will watch regardless how much they care for the franchise.

That's the trap. (Or at least one of them.)

In the past I asked (in an unsuccessful thread), "What Starwars meant to [fellow DBOers]". I've observed a spectrum in responses and I wondered if there were recognizable variables between those who speak of the movie in the spectrum of (to keep it simple) "bad", such as yours truly, or "good" such as Ragashingo. Is it Age? Or even the age a person is when introduced to the galaxy of Starwars? Is it the depth of Starwars Fandom? A Casual Starwars Fan Vs a Hardcore Starwars fan? Is it a literacy or stance towards Movies? Again serious or casual. Is the person there for the action, or for the story? ... so on. Variables.

I don't have an answer to my question, nor do I expect to due to a lack of a solid sample size (among other things). Yet, I can't help but say thanks for the help in streamlining the thoughts of this ol' hypothesis of mine.

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

Is it?! I never bothered to read the novelization of the movies, but hmm, maybe I should. Thank you.

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It’s the only one I’ve read. I highly recommend it. It fills in a lot of the gaps, not that not with the actual plot, but with the relationships of the Jedi and the Republic and especially Obi-wan and Anakin. It fills in the details that the movie hints at but never quite delivers.

I’ve always loved the way it opens. I cut a bit off the front.

The nightmare gets worse: the Supreme Chancellor is missing.

Palpatine of Naboo, the most admired man in the galaxy, whose unmatched political skills have held the Republic together. Whose personal integrity and courage prove that the Separatist propaganda of corruption in the Senate is nothing but lies. Whose charismatic leadership gives the whole Republic the will to fight on.

Palpatine is more than respected. He is loved.

Even the rumor of his disappearance strikes a dagger to the heart of every friend of the Republic. Every one of them knows it in her heart, in his gut, in its very bones --

Without Palpatine, the Republic will fall.

And now confirmation comes through, and the news is worse than anyone could have imagined. Supreme Chancellor Palpatine has been captured by the Separatists -- and not just the Separatists.

He's in the hands of General Grievous.

Grievous is not like other leaders of the Separatists. Nute Gunray is treacherous and venal, but he's Neimoidian: venality and treachery are expected, and in the Viceroy of the Trade Federation they're even virtues. Poggle the Lesser is Archduke of the weapon masters of Geonosis, where the war began: he is analytical and pitiless, but also pragmatic. Reasonable. The political heart of the Separatist Confederacy, Count Dooku, is known for his integrity, his principled stand against what he sees as corruption in the Senate. Though they believe he's wrong, many respect him for the courage of his mistaken convictions.

These are hard beings. Dangerous beings. Ruthless and aggressive.

General Grievous, though --

Grievous is a monster.

The Separatist Supreme Commander is an abomination of nature, a fusion of flesh and droid -- and his droid parts have more compassion than what remains of his alien flesh. This halfliving creature is a slaughterer of billions. Whole planets have burned at his command. He is the evil genius of the Confederacy. The architect of their victories.

The author of their atrocities.

And his durasteel grip has closed upon Palpatine. He confirms the capture personally in a wideband transmission from his command cruiser in the midst of the orbital battle. Beings across the galaxy watch, and shudder, and pray that they might wake up from this awful dream.

Because they know that what they're watching, live on the HoloNet, is the death of the Republic.

Many among these beings break into tears; many more reach out to comfort their husbands or wives, their crèche-mates or kin-triads, and their younglings of all descriptions, from children to cubs to spawn-fry.

But here is a strange thing: few of the younglings need comfort. It is instead the younglings who offer comfort to their elders. Across the Republic--in words or pheromones, in magnetic pulses, tentacle-braids, or mental telepathy -- the message from the younglings is the same: Don't worry. It'll be all right.

Anakin and Obi-Wan will be there any minute.

They say this as though these names can conjure miracles.

Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi and Skywalker. From the beginning of the Clone Wars, the phrase Kenobi and Skywalker has become a single word. They are everywhere. HoloNet features of their operations against the Separatist enemy have made them the most famous Jedi in the galaxy.

Younglings across the galaxy know their names, know everything about them, follow their exploits as though they are sports heroes instead of warriors in a desperate battle to save civilization. Even grown-ups are not immune; it's not uncommon for an exasperated parent to ask, when faced with offspring who have just tried to pull off one of the spectacularly dangerous bits of foolishness that are the stock-in-trade of high-spirited younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker?

Kenobi would rather talk than fight, but when there is fighting to be done, few can match him. Skywalker is the master of audacity; his intensity, boldness, and sheer jaw-dropping luck are the perfect complement to Kenobi's deliberate, balanced steadiness. Together, they are a Jedi hammer that has crushed Separatist infestations on scores of worlds.

All the younglings watching the battle in Coruscant's sky know it: when Anakin and Obi-Wan get there, those dirty Seppers are going to wish they'd stayed in bed today.

The adults know better, of course. That's part of what being a grown-up is: understanding that heroes are created by the HoloNet, and that the real-life Kenobi and Skywalker are only human beings, after all.

Even if they really are everything the legends say they are, who's to say they'll show up in time? Who knows where they are right now? They might be trapped on some Separatist backwater. They might be captured, or wounded. Even dead.

Some of the adults even whisper to themselves, They might have fallen.

Because the stories are out there. Not on the HoloNet, of course -- the HoloNet news is under the control of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, and not even Palpatine's renowned candor would allow tales like these to be told--but people hear whispers. Whispers of names that the Jedi would like to pretend never existed.

Sora Bulq. Depa Billaba. Jedi who have fallen to the dark. Who have joined the Separatists, or worse: who have massacred civilians, or even murdered their comrades. The adults have a sickening suspicion that Jedi cannot be trusted. Not anymore. That even the greatest of them can suddenly just . . . snap.

The adults know that legendary heroes are merely legends, and not heroes at all.

These adults can take no comfort from their younglings. Palpatine is captured. Grievous will escape. The Republic will fall. No mere human beings can turn this tide. No mere human beings would even try. Not even Kenobi and Skywalker.

And so it is that these adults across the galaxy watch the HoloNet with ashes where their hearts should be.

Ashes because they can't see two prismatic bursts of realspace reversion, far out beyond the planet's gravity well; because they can't see a pair of starfighters crisply jettison hyperdrive rings and streak into the storm of Separatist vulture fighters with all guns blazing.

A pair of starfighters. Jedi starfighters. Only two.

Two is enough.

Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right.

Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

Is it?! I never bothered to read the novelization of the movies, but hmm, maybe I should. Thank you.

The RotS novelization is by Mathew Stover. ALL of his SW novels are top notch. I’d consider them “must reads” for any fans. Most of the other movie novelizations are merely ok, but his RotS novel is spectacular. In addition to that, there are a pair of books that sandwich RotS that are very good. They tell the story of what happens immediately before and after RotS. So all together, they form a great trilogy. Check out:

Labyrinth of Evil
Revenge of the Sith
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

Is it?! I never bothered to read the novelization of the movies, but hmm, maybe I should. Thank you.

The RotS novelization is by Mathew Stover. ALL of his SW novels are top notch. I’d consider them “must reads” for any fans. Most of the other movie novelizations are merely ok, but his RotS novel is spectacular. In addition to that, there are a pair of books that sandwich RotS that are very good. They tell the story of what happens immediately before and after RotS. So all together, they form a great trilogy. Check out:

Labyrinth of Evil
Revenge of the Sith
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Yeah, I was like oh a Star Wars book. So I picked up The Truce at Bakura, started reading it and was like… this is shit. So I never read a Star Wars book ever again. The end.

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Yeah, I was like oh a Star Wars book. So I picked up The Truce at Bakura, started reading it and was like… this is shit. So I never read a Star Wars book ever again. The end.

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

Is it?! I never bothered to read the novelization of the movies, but hmm, maybe I should. Thank you.

The RotS novelization is by Mathew Stover. ALL of his SW novels are top notch. I’d consider them “must reads” for any fans. Most of the other movie novelizations are merely ok, but his RotS novel is spectacular. In addition to that, there are a pair of books that sandwich RotS that are very good. They tell the story of what happens immediately before and after RotS. So all together, they form a great trilogy. Check out:

Labyrinth of Evil
Revenge of the Sith
Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader

Yeah, I was like oh a Star Wars book. So I picked up The Truce at Bakura, started reading it and was like… this is shit. So I never read a Star Wars book ever again. The end.

A lot of them are quite bad. But the very best of them are actually quite good. Mathew Stover’s “Traitor” is one of my favourite books, period... it just so happens to be a Star Wars novel, which is icing on the cake for me :)

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Yeah, I was like oh a Star Wars book. So I picked up The Truce at Bakura, started reading it and was like… this is shit. So I never read a Star Wars book ever again. The end.

A lot of them are quite bad. But the very best of them are actually quite good. Mathew Stover’s “Traitor” is one of my favourite books, period... it just so happens to be a Star Wars novel, which is icing on the cake for me :)

Everyone raves about the Thrawn trilogy.

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Yeah, I was like oh a Star Wars book. So I picked up The Truce at Bakura, started reading it and was like… this is shit. So I never read a Star Wars book ever again. The end.

A lot of them are quite bad. But the very best of them are actually quite good. Mathew Stover’s “Traitor” is one of my favourite books, period... it just so happens to be a Star Wars novel, which is icing on the cake for me :)

Everyone raves about the Thrawn trilogy.

It’s very overrated. They’re fun reads, and Thrawn is an interesting character, but they’re not some masterpieces of storytelling that a lot of people hold them up to be.

I like the new Thrawn trilogy a lot better.

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I like the new Thrawn trilogy a lot better.

I liked him in TIE Fighter.

[image]

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I’m fairly certain that’s from the novelization of Revenge of the Sith. It’s actually a really good read and does a really great job at depicting Anakin’s turn to the dark side, which is something I think those movies failed spectacularly at, despite ostensibly being the entire point of their existence.

I’m fairly sure that quote is from the novel set immediately after Rots. It’s called “Rise of Darth Vader”. It’s also very good, although I wouldn’t put it up there with the RotS novel.

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You could be right. I just recognized the writing style. I thought it was the end of RotS when Vader wakes up.

I didn’t know about those other two books. I’ll definitely read them now, though.

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You could be right. I just recognized the writing style. I thought it was the end of RotS when Vader wakes up.

I didn’t know about those other two books. I’ll definitely read them now, though.

Ah, you’re probably right then. They’re all a bit of a blur to me now. I read all 3 of them in about a week like 15 years ago, lol.

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"The bad thing was good and the good thing you thought was good? Is the bad. "

- Staten

(I like Joe as a person and his work, but he's definitely got a structure he likes to use)

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I find myself drawn back to review that Gallery semi-frequently
Thank You, as Always, for continually Hosting (and in a sensible format)
____________________________________________________________

(prior post - particles)

(Matter Logo Image)

(Prophecy Dungeon Environments)

Tried to Spoiler tag images, but it didn't work correctly

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This dungeon is fucking awesome.

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D1 - Vanguard (Tower; Hall of Guardians):

D2 - Prophecy (Dungeon):

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D1 - Vanguard (Tower; Hall of Guardians):

wooooooh, I completely forgot about that war room!! It's like it got blown up and I was sapped of all my power. That causes memory loss right?

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https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/54

When will the ManKitten make an appearance?

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https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/54

When will the ManKitten make an appearance?

Tiger Man.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/54

When will the ManKitten make an appearance?

Tiger Man.

Pimps at Sea was a joke too...until Crimson: Steam Pirates.

jussayin.

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https://destiny.bungie.org/galleries/gdc2013_concept_art/d/54

When will the ManKitten make an appearance?

Tiger Man.

https://youtu.be/XxJVDZpUEHI

Pimps at Sea was a joke too...until Crimson: Steam Pirates.

jussayin.

Well I suppose since your whole shtick is "I'm a joke" it all balances out, eh. :P

jussayin.

(This post looks so mean if you don't know the context OMG. XD)

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I was looking through some old artwork... (Destiny)