THAB—Content Vault Edition

This week they describe what exactly is happening with the content vaulting. Surprise, it’s just as half-asses as you probably thought it would be!

Gambit and Gambit Prime are combined into a slightly reworked Gambit Prime. None of the Prime armor perks work though, potentially to be reworked at a later date (wonder how long that will take!)

Exotic quests from the vaulted planets are gone, obviously. Those exotics will be acquired through an unexplained Memorial Kiosk (except Whisper and Outbreak Perfected, which are just gone). Exotic catalysts that are acquired from vaulted content will simply no longer be obtainable though! Hurray!

That’s it. Read it for slightly more detail.

I did consider ignoring this or writing a version of this post without the snark. But, honestly, fuck it. That was more thought than Bungie apparently puts into their decisions, so I figure it’s warranted.

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Why the hell are they discontinuing things like supremacy? Are engrams that roll around when you kill a player adding THAT much bloat to the game?!

Nobody should champion this. They are removing what you paid for. It doesn't matter that they MIGHT roll it back in at some point based on their whims.

RIP Des2ny.

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Why the hell are they discontinuing things like supremacy? Are engrams that roll around when you kill a player adding THAT much bloat to the game?!

Well Supremacy sucks and nobody seems to care about it so there's that.

Nobody should champion this. They are removing what you paid for. It doesn't matter that they MIGHT roll it back in at some point based on their whims.

RIP Des2ny.

I don't know about taking away paid for stuff or whatever, but it was hard to read through this without being cynical. No new Crucible or Gambit maps?

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I may want Crucible to die a million times over, but I wholeheartedly agree. Removing the planets and stuff, I agree that makes sense. But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes. I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

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But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes.

This is just... not correct. What do loading spots have anything to do with size of a file? That's just a coordinate on the map. A gametype is probably a bit bigger. A class that holds all the information, probably a bit bigger, but without a proper map to play it on the game type is useless. Also, as it was mentioned no one likes it.

But to compare a Multiplayer map vs a planet is not based strictly on size. It is based on assets and the quality of those assets. Planets are going to have a lot of repetitve lower quality assets. Higher quality assets as well but only in areas that are mission important I bet. Multiplayer maps have a lot of detail crammed in to a smaller map compared to PvE maps.

So to just roughly compare things like that is just not right. You have no idea the quantity and size of those assets.

I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

I'm not saying it's right on a gameplay perspective, but don't just throw out numbers and say that it's all smoke and mirrors based on size.

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But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes.

This is just... not correct. What do loading spots have anything to do with size of a file? That's just a coordinate on the map. A gametype is probably a bit bigger. A class that holds all the information, probably a bit bigger, but without a proper map to play it on the game type is useless. Also, as it was mentioned no one likes it.

But to compare a Multiplayer map vs a planet is not based strictly on size. It is based on assets and the quality of those assets. Planets are going to have a lot of repetitve lower quality assets. Higher quality assets as well but only in areas that are mission important I bet. Multiplayer maps have a lot of detail crammed in to a smaller map compared to PvE maps.

So to just roughly compare things like that is just not right. You have no idea the quantity and size of those assets.

I have to disagree. So, what I mean by loading zones, is the planet and it’s surrounding areas. For instance, on a place like Titan, you have the public area, it’s enemies and environment, assets like ammo, items and displays, interactive items such as patrol beacons and rally flags, instant drop-in/dropout matchmaking, pre-loading other public areas, lost sectors, and all of the stories, adventures, strikes and quests, including any possible versions of those. A multiplayer map, however, only has the environment, ammunition, any relevant sky boxes, or map specific features. While the detail might be higher, there’s undoubtedly much less of it.

Yes, I don’t have a clue of the size of assets in a map, or the map as a whole. But I know for sure a multiplayer map alone isn’t gonna be gigabytes in size.

I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

I'm not saying it's right on a gameplay perspective, but don't just throw out numbers and say that it's all smoke and mirrors based on size.

I honestly don’t know what else could be gained from a move like that. Size or not, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

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But multiplayer maps are small contained areas with no additional loading spots—mere megabytes. The gametypes themselves? Kilobytes, if not bytes.

This is just... not correct. What do loading spots have anything to do with size of a file? That's just a coordinate on the map. A gametype is probably a bit bigger. A class that holds all the information, probably a bit bigger, but without a proper map to play it on the game type is useless. Also, as it was mentioned no one likes it.

But to compare a Multiplayer map vs a planet is not based strictly on size. It is based on assets and the quality of those assets. Planets are going to have a lot of repetitve lower quality assets. Higher quality assets as well but only in areas that are mission important I bet. Multiplayer maps have a lot of detail crammed in to a smaller map compared to PvE maps.

So to just roughly compare things like that is just not right. You have no idea the quantity and size of those assets.

I have to disagree. So, what I mean by loading zones, is the planet and it’s surrounding areas. For instance, on a place like Titan, you have the public area, it’s enemies and environment, assets like ammo, items and displays, interactive items such as patrol beacons and rally flags, instant drop-in/dropout matchmaking, pre-loading other public areas, lost sectors, and all of the stories, adventures, strikes and quests, including any possible versions of those. A multiplayer map, however, only has the environment, ammunition, any relevant sky boxes, or map specific features. While the detail might be higher, there’s undoubtedly much less of it.

Yes, I don’t have a clue of the size of assets in a map, or the map as a whole. But I know for sure a multiplayer map alone isn’t gonna be gigabytes in size.

all I know and from what I can guess as a software engineer is that software and logic is much cheaper on a whole than graphics.

So all the logic surrounding a landing zone and the activity is indeed complex in the game, but code base wise it's just a bunch of code triggers. My guess for what they are trying to do with saving space is to get rid of a whole set of planet graphic assets because all of those planets/themes use the same graphic assets. But I digress. I think what matters is two things when it comes to graphics, the amount of assets and the quality of them. If a planet uses the same assets 20 low quality assets over and over again even if it's a massive zone, but a Multiplayer map uses 15 high quality assets but few times. It could be that the multiplayer map is twice the space taken on your hard drive.

So all I'm trying to say is, just because it looks big and complex, does not at all mean that it takes up more space on your hard drive. It's more likely, for sure, but it's also a very complex piece of software and it's easy to forget it.

I know pretty darn well you're not shaving off an arm or a leg with that size of data. And then Gambit—removing half the maps (and two of the only three gametypes) so that there's only four maps for three years?

Sweet.

Jesus.

I'm not saying it's right on a gameplay perspective, but don't just throw out numbers and say that it's all smoke and mirrors based on size.

I honestly don’t know what else could be gained from a move like that. Size or not, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

We shall find out.

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This week they describe what exactly is happening with the content vaulting. Surprise, it’s just as half-asses as you probably thought it would be!

I dunno, this seems pretty straightforward and explicit. It's pretty much exactly like I was expecting from their earlier signals and that means they figured out a good way to message that information to me.

I'm not sure I'm totally happy with previous content disappearing, but I do think that Destiny is a game that needs focus. Sparrow racing was fun, even if it was too limited at first. Once it was something people could choose to play with friends, nobody did it. Too much content always available can cause content to become stale. Destiny needs a critical mass of community interest for its underlying mechanics to work well. Pruning makes sense from my perspective and this doesn't seem that dumb to me.

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I think there's maybe nine left on the planet.

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Too much content always available can cause content to become stale.

I don't think this is true. Too much shallow, uninteresting, or repetitive content makes it stale. Perhaps Bungie has simply run out of ideas for Destiny, or stretched it for far too long.

Most movie scripts could not sustain say, a 3 hour runtime. But that doesn't mean a great 3 hour movie is impossible.

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I don't think this is true. Too much shallow, uninteresting, or repetitive content makes it stale. Perhaps Bungie has simply run out of ideas for Destiny, or stretched it for far too long.

I think what's actually most frustrating for me about this is that there are things that are being Vaulted that are not stale - they just aren't very useful because of the increasingly complex gear-transience systems Bungie has layered on top of the game as it's progressed. The Menagerie (essentially a matchmade raid-lite experience) is being Vaulted even though it fills a niche no other content in Destiny does. It was universally praised when released, and pointed to as a the high bar for seasonal content, but nothing Bungie has done since then has tried to replicate that achievement. It seems like a content that could easily be expanded on (a new encounter or 2) and updated to be relevant (replace the gear drops), but instead it's being removed after only a year without any apparent replacement.

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I don't think this is true. Too much shallow, uninteresting, or repetitive content makes it stale. Perhaps Bungie has simply run out of ideas for Destiny, or stretched it for far too long.

I think what's actually most frustrating for me about this is that there are things that are being Vaulted that are not stale - they just aren't very useful because of the increasingly complex gear-transience systems Bungie has layered on top of the game as it's progressed. The Menagerie (essentially a matchmade raid-lite experience) is being Vaulted even though it fills a niche no other content in Destiny does. It was universally praised when released, and pointed to as a the high bar for seasonal content, but nothing Bungie has done since then has tried to replicate that achievement. It seems like a content that could easily be expanded on (a new encounter or 2) and updated to be relevant (replace the gear drops), but instead it's being removed after only a year without any apparent replacement.

So you're telling me the investment system is what's having a negative impact here? Oh wow, who could have imagined that! :-p

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So you're telling me the investment system is what's having a negative impact here? Oh wow, who could have imagined that! :-p

Actually what I said was Bungie's cutting off of older content from the investment system is the problem. They can literally fix this at any time - they just demonstrated this when they raised the gear power caps and drop lock-outs on all the raids slated to be DCV'd. Menagerie doesn't have to be "stale" and removing it is a massive negative to Destiny's breadth of gameplay unless there's a similar replacement in the content pipe.

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So you're telling me the investment system is what's having a negative impact here? Oh wow, who could have imagined that! :-p

Actually what I said was Bungie's cutting off of older content from the investment system is the problem. They can literally fix this at any time - they just demonstrated this when they raised the gear power caps and drop lock-outs on all the raids slated to be DCV'd. Menagerie doesn't have to be "stale" and removing it is a massive negative to Destiny's breadth of gameplay unless there's a similar replacement in the content pipe.

Right but, the NEW content is supposed to be ostensibly driven by gear acquisition in an investment system. If you can get the gear you need in older activities…

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So you're telling me the investment system is what's having a negative impact here? Oh wow, who could have imagined that! :-p

Actually what I said was Bungie's cutting off of older content from the investment system is the problem. They can literally fix this at any time - they just demonstrated this when they raised the gear power caps and drop lock-outs on all the raids slated to be DCV'd. Menagerie doesn't have to be "stale" and removing it is a massive negative to Destiny's breadth of gameplay unless there's a similar replacement in the content pipe.

Right but, the NEW content is supposed to be ostensibly driven by gear acquisition in an investment system. If you can get the gear you need in older activities…

You are looking at this too black and white. It's just just about the gear. The Menagerie isn't stale, it fits a niche that isn't seen anywhere in Destiny. With the new light level the rewards from it have gone stale, but the gameplay is not. You are only looking at the item rewards part of the "investment system". The time and fun part of the investment is still there.

What I believe squid is saying is that if they would just bring the item investment side up to par then there is no reason to vault it. Because then it would fit all of the requirements for current and great content.

I know you like banging on the fact that Destiny is steeped in getting the next best item/gear, but it's not all that.

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What I believe squid is saying is that if they would just bring the item investment side up to par then there is no reason to vault it. Because then it would fit all of the requirements for current and great content.

What would that look like though?

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What I believe squid is saying is that if they would just bring the item investment side up to par then there is no reason to vault it. Because then it would fit all of the requirements for current and great content.

What would that look like though?

The snarky answer is "I'm don't know, I'm not Bungie"
My answer would probably be items that are harder to get? Maybe a section of equipment that can be rotated out? The thing is about the Menagerie is that it was the first foray into selective rewards. So it would have to be built into that, or that would be removed entirely.

So it wouldn't be a simple rework of rewards. It's also technically part of the Leviathan, which means it is using some of the assets that they want to vault so it might be a moot point.

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That sort of proves his point a bit.

No one runs Menagerie anymore because it’s not relevant anymore for the investment side of the game. No matter how fun an activity is, most people won’t play it if it’s not giving out current gear. If the investment side of the game wasn’t there (or even if it was more forgiving and old activities didn’t cap out and always gave current or Powerful gear), that wouldn’t be the case. Bungie uses the investment system to drive players to new activities, instead of focusing on just making fun activities or letting players just play the things they enjoy.

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That sort of proves his point a bit.

No one runs Menagerie anymore because it’s not relevant anymore for the investment side of the game. No matter how fun an activity is, most people won’t play it if it’s not giving out current gear. If the investment side of the game wasn’t there (or even if it was more forgiving and old activities didn’t cap out and always gave current or Powerful gear), that wouldn’t be the case. Bungie uses the investment system to drive players to new activities,

I agree with this.

instead of focusing on just making fun activities or letting players just play the things they enjoy.

I hate when people say this. Mostly because when I play the game this is blatantly false. Do I go after gear? Yeah, of course I do, but if the content isn't fun to play then I just don't do it. To say that Bungie isn't focused on fun activities is just not true in my opinion.

As for "letting players just play the things they enjoy" I have always thougt of this as silly statement. I feel like every player enjoys some content of Destiny. And if that statement is true, then the above statement is true. If you are so disappointed by the gear you get from something that you can't enjoy the actual game play... I honestly feel sorry for you. I've always enjoyed playing Destiny first, loot second. I'm also very much a social gamer though, so I can imagine how that might change while playing solo. But I also play Destiny when new content comes out and then I finish it and I'm done.

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As for "letting players just play the things they enjoy" I have always thougt of this as silly statement. I feel like every player enjoys some content of Destiny. And if that statement is true, then the above statement is true. If you are so disappointed by the gear you get from something that you can't enjoy the actual game play... I honestly feel sorry for you. I've always enjoyed playing Destiny first, loot second. I'm also very much a social gamer though, so I can imagine how that might change while playing solo. But I also play Destiny when new content comes out and then I finish it and I'm done.

I think you're not accounting for the psychological effect the game creates. It has a literal reward system of tangible (in the digital realm) items. As soon as that happens, the players focus is immediately changed. How many people have played the same raid dozens of times just to play it. And how many have played it dozens of times because they don't have 1K Voices yet? Once they got it, how many times did they play it after?

Just from reading the forum and listening to a couple Destiny podcasts, it seems like the repetitive player wants that one piece of gear.

Yes, you can still have fun playing the game...but what keeps bringing you back? The stuff. Gaining light level. That catalyst that requires 5,000 mundane tasks. The game can absolutely be fun but the chase of the next piece of loot and gratification is addictive. And when that becomes the basis of the game (and in my opinion, it has) the fun of the game is gone.

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I think you're not accounting for the psychological effect the game creates. It has a literal reward system of tangible (in the digital realm) items. As soon as that happens, the players focus is immediately changed. How many people have played the same raid dozens of times just to play it.

That's a bad example, because I have. I've played raids, crucible, and trials with no expectation or desire for rewards many times.

Yes, you can still have fun playing the game...but what keeps bringing you back?

Ideally only the fun. And when that runs out, you put the game down. That is the most mature way to design a game. Keeping the player coming back is not a valuable endeavor in and of itself if what they come back to is poison.

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I think you're not accounting for the psychological effect the game creates. It has a literal reward system of tangible (in the digital realm) items. As soon as that happens, the players focus is immediately changed. How many people have played the same raid dozens of times just to play it.

That's a bad example, because I have. I've played raids, crucible, and trials with no expectation or desire for rewards many times.

C'mon Cody, you of all people should recognize the spirit of my point instead of focusing on the outliers. :P

I'm not speaking in absolutes here. I was in a Raid party with someone who had done the raid a bunch, and still not gotten their weapon and hearing the frustration in their voice. From podcasts, I've heard multiple stories similar to that experience. From what it seems to me, Destiny is being catered to the type of player that matches my example.

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I'm not speaking in absolutes here. I was in a Raid party with someone who had done the raid a bunch, and still not gotten their weapon and hearing the frustration in their voice. From podcasts, I've heard multiple stories similar to that experience. From what it seems to me, Destiny is being catered to the type of player that matches my example.

On the whole you are right, yes. But I think it's all the other activities that have issue, not the raids.

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As for "letting players just play the things they enjoy" I have always thougt of this as silly statement. I feel like every player enjoys some content of Destiny. And if that statement is true, then the above statement is true. If you are so disappointed by the gear you get from something that you can't enjoy the actual game play... I honestly feel sorry for you. I've always enjoyed playing Destiny first, loot second. I'm also very much a social gamer though, so I can imagine how that might change while playing solo. But I also play Destiny when new content comes out and then I finish it and I'm done.

I guess I'm just in the minority.

I think you're not accounting for the psychological effect the game creates. It has a literal reward system of tangible (in the digital realm) items. As soon as that happens, the players focus is immediately changed. How many people have played the same raid dozens of times just to play it. And how many have played it dozens of times because they don't have 1K Voices yet? Once they got it, how many times did they play it after?

::raises hand::

I raid with friends well after I've gotten the golden exotic.

Just from reading the forum and listening to a couple Destiny podcasts, it seems like the repetitive player wants that one piece of gear.

Yes, you can still have fun playing the game...but what keeps bringing you back? The stuff. Gaining light level. That catalyst that requires 5,000 mundane tasks. The game can absolutely be fun but the chase of the next piece of loot and gratification is addictive. And when that becomes the basis of the game (and in my opinion, it has) the fun of the game is gone.

I play primarily for new content, not new gear. And I'll restate that if I am going specifically for a piece of gear, I will not play the content if I'm not having fun. There have been exceptions to that if it's quick.

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My point isn’t the actual gear, but the power level. I want to do the new dungeon. I can’t unless I first play whatever mix of activities they determine I can to actually level up. After those are done, i might as well stop because nothing else will give me any substantial progress towards the actual thing I want to do.

The powerful drop system needs to go. If I want to just grind out Crucible, I should be able to do that, but Bungie doesn’t think so. I can’t play the thing I actually want to until I’ve done weeks worth of the chores Bungie has set up.

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My point isn’t the actual gear, but the power level. I want to do the new dungeon. I can’t unless I first play whatever mix of activities they determine I can to actually level up. After those are done, i might as well stop because nothing else will give me any substantial progress towards the actual thing I want to do.

The powerful drop system needs to go. If I want to just grind out Crucible, I should be able to do that, but Bungie doesn’t think so. I can’t play the thing I actually want to until I’ve done weeks worth of the chores Bungie has set up.

Well why didn't you say so? I can totally agree that that is frustrating and it does break that. I have never really experienced that though as I play way more casually than you. Even when I was leveling for raids and stuff I was just playing around until I got there. There have been a couple times where I pushed myself to blind raid, but other than that not really.

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The powerful drop system needs to go. If I want to just grind out Crucible, I should be able to do that, but Bungie doesn’t think so. I can’t play the thing I actually want to until I’ve done weeks worth of the chores Bungie has set up.

The problem is that they make it so you can level up by doing anything, there will always be one thing that is the most efficient to do (e.g., the loot cave) and everyone will feel forced into doing that one thing instead of feeling forced into doing a variety of things. I like the occasional nudge to try something different, but it's also pretty obvious how that would be annoying. It's definitely a negative of the current investment system, as I'm not sure a truly harmonious balance is possible for everyone.

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I think the solution to that is to get rid of Powerful drops, but keep the Pinnacle system. I can level by doing anything, but chasing a Pinnacle will get you a guaranteed big boost.

My other counterpoint is “who cares?” Let people play what they want. Bungie thinks that getting to max level is the game, whereas I think the actual game I want to play only starts when I’m finally there, and everything preceding that is basically just forced bullshit.

I realize that’s not everyone’s perspective, but that’s the thing that keeps me from playing.

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I think the solution to that is to get rid of Powerful drops, but keep the Pinnacle system. I can level by doing anything, but chasing a Pinnacle will get you a guaranteed big boost.

My other counterpoint is “who cares?” Let people play what they want. Bungie thinks that getting to max level is the game, whereas I think the actual game I want to play only starts when I’m finally there, and everything preceding that is basically just forced bullshit.

I realize that’s not everyone’s perspective, but that’s the thing that keeps me from playing.

I kinda agree with this, which is partly why I play a season behind. I miss nothing and the level cap doesn't really affect me. I also just don't play nearly as much recently because it turns out being a dad takes a lot of your time. I resort to games that are quick and easy fun that take no commitment.

But that is also just my life right now. If I didn't have that drawback I would totally be back into Destiny.

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I kinda agree with this, which is partly why I play a season behind. I miss nothing and the level cap doesn't really affect me. I also just don't play nearly as much recently because it turns out being a dad takes a lot of your time. I resort to games that are quick and easy fun that take no commitment.

But that is also just my life right now. If I didn't have that drawback I would totally be back into Destiny.

DBO needs subclans:

DBO Outriders - for the charge leading front liners
DBO Slackers - for the slow-go progression players that are always a few steps behind

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I kinda agree with this, which is partly why I play a season behind. I miss nothing and the level cap doesn't really affect me. I also just don't play nearly as much recently because it turns out being a dad takes a lot of your time. I resort to games that are quick and easy fun that take no commitment.

But that is also just my life right now. If I didn't have that drawback I would totally be back into Destiny.

DBO needs subclans:

DBO Outriders - for the charge leading front liners
DBO Slackers - for the slow-go progression players that are always a few steps behind

This may be the worse idea ever posted on this board. The fact that there are both is the entire point of a clan. Having both together is how you bridge that problem of needing to level up "enough" to do stuff that is being discussed. Having both together extends the life of content because people have a reason to go back even if they have the gear it gives - to help others.

I think the people who only ever play with their regular group are effectively removing that value of the clan. I mean, time is limited and people should get the fun out of their play time that they want, so what can you do? Despite what this is going to sound like, I don't morally judge them, but there's a bunch of people who mostly ever seem to play with each other while appearing offline, and I kinda wonder what's the point of being in the clan to them — and vice versus. Guess I'll take their Hawthorn Engrams… :)

I've long wanted Destiny to add tools to make it easier to match with classmates in the moment. Just busting into an existing group seems rude. I assume that's part of why people appear offline so much. and if a bunch of people are playing solo, how are we to know if they are doing that out of preference? There should just be some little flag you can flip on in the director for "happy to group up" or "need help with this" that's only seen by your Clan. Guided games was a failure; make this instead.

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I think the Xbox system and the game itself make that sort of clear. If the party and fireteam are open and joinable, that means they are welcome to people joining them. If they’re not, the game allows players to close their fireteams and Xbox allows you to lock down a party.

I realize there are social anxieties for people in just randomly joining people, but I actively encourage folks to do it. Most of my best nights in Destiny have come from just joining that six or seven or eight person Xbox Live party and seeing what’s going on.

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I think the Xbox system and the game itself make that sort of clear. If the party and fireteam are open and joinable, that means they are welcome to people joining them. If they’re not, the game allows players to close their fireteams and Xbox allows you to lock down a party.

I realize there are social anxieties for people in just randomly joining people, but I actively encourage folks to do it. Most of my best nights in Destiny have come from just joining that six or seven or eight person Xbox Live party and seeing what’s going on.

Yeah, my most fun nights have been when I've had the courage to drop in on a group. Still- I can't seem to get over the idea that I'm barging in whenever I do that. I dunno, but there seems to be a weird socialization protocol that I internalized and it keeps me from jumping into a party without invitation.

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I mean, if you’re a season behind, you’re literally missing all the seasonal content. Granted, i don’t think that’s worth being upset about because none of it is worthwhile. The exception being the dungeon that’s going away this season.

That’s probably an okay way to play the game though, because it means your power level doesn’t matter at all, unless you want to hop into Iron Banner.

I’ll be checking out the expansion because it’s on Game Pass, but I’m definitely not buying another season unless they get a real overhaul.

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I mean, if you’re a season behind, you’re literally missing all the seasonal content. Granted, i don’t think that’s worth being upset about because none of it is worthwhile. The exception being the dungeon that’s going away this season.

The... what, now?

There are 3 dungeons in Destiny, and all 3 are making the transition to Y4. (Shattered Throne, Pit of Heresy, Prophecy.)

What are you referring to here?

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I mean, if you’re a season behind, you’re literally missing all the seasonal content. Granted, i don’t think that’s worth being upset about because none of it is worthwhile. The exception being the dungeon that’s going away this season.

The... what, now?

There are 3 dungeons in Destiny, and all 3 are making the transition to Y4. (Shattered Throne, Pit of Heresy, Prophecy.)

What are you referring to here?

I think he is talking about the first "dungeon" which is the whisper quest dungeon. Not technically a dungeon, but it definitely felt like it. I could be wrong though... I just recently considered it a dungeon and someone told me it wasn't and they would be correct.

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Prophecy won't be around for a little while (YMMV) when Y4 drops. Has been confirmed by Bungie as they are trying to tie it in a new way to justify its location/lore.

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Bungie said Prophecy was going away at the end of the season. They also said it’s coming back, but who knows when that will be.

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Bungie said Prophecy was going away at the end of the season. They also said it’s coming back, but who knows when that will be.

They said

Note that the Prophecy dungeon will become temporarily unavailable for a brief period to allow our team to make a necessary technical update. Expect details on dates and timing soon.

That doesn't sound like 'going away' to me - it sounds like it'll be offline for short period. I suppose 'brief period' could mean months (in the context of the lifespan of the Destiny franchise)... but more likely it means days or weeks.

I could be wrong, of course.

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Cozmo said this on reddit towards the beginning of the season:

We’re making some under-the-hood changes to how activities function when Season 12 launches (which we hope results in no noticeable changes in the activities themselves). Unfortunately, that change means our newest pinnacle activity - Prophecy – may have to take a season off before it returns. We're working to bring it back as quickly as we can.

Maybe that’s changed. I certainly hope so. They also said they were working to put the exotic catalysts from the faction rallies back in the game, and how long did that take? Maybe not a fair comparison, but they haven’t done much to make me optimistic when it comes to these sorts of things.

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Cozmo said this on reddit towards the beginning of the season:

We’re making some under-the-hood changes to how activities function when Season 12 launches (which we hope results in no noticeable changes in the activities themselves). Unfortunately, that change means our newest pinnacle activity - Prophecy – may have to take a season off before it returns. We're working to bring it back as quickly as we can.

Maybe that’s changed. I certainly hope so. They also said they were working to put the exotic catalysts from the faction rallies back in the game, and how long did that take? Maybe not a fair comparison, but they haven’t done much to make me optimistic when it comes to these sorts of things.

Wow, I don't remember seeing that. The quote I provided was from last week's TWAB, though.

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Given that the very first clip in today's gameplay trailer showing off the upcoming Stasis subclasses was from the Prophecy dungeon, I think it's unlikely that the dungeon will be offline for the entirety of the next season. I will guess, in fact, that it'll be available again within a couple of weeks of the season's start.

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My other counterpoint is “who cares?” Let people play what they want. Bungie thinks that getting to max level is the game, whereas I think the actual game I want to play only starts when I’m finally there, and everything preceding that is basically just forced bullshit.

Just from my perspective:

I've never hit max level. My usual play style is, I would finally get powerful enough in season (3) to play the stuff in season (1). So I would always be months behind everyone else when it came to my capabilities. And it was hard to play with other people because, they've all moved on to stuff I'm not strong enough to play and they don't want to play old activities because it wasn't worth their time. So I just lone wolf it and gradually do my quests in a peaceful manner. But even that is becoming rough, hence I say the game outpaced me.

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I’ve never hit max level, either, at least since Forsaken. When I say max level, I just mean the level at which all the content becomes open.

I also only play the activities I actively have fun with. Guess how much Destiny I’ve played recently. That’s my issue. They lock the fun stuff behind weeks of shit I no longer want to do.

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I’ve never hit max level, either, at least since Forsaken. When I say max level, I just mean the level at which all the content becomes open.

I think the last time I hit max level was house of wolves lol. I might have hit 400 with Rise of Iron, but I don't remember.

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The entire concept of "max level" is flexible and ill-defined with the artifacts, though.

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The entire concept of "max level" is flexible and ill-defined with the artifacts, though.

Fair enough. I've never played a version of this game with the current artifact system.

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The powerful drop system needs to go. If I want to just grind out Crucible, I should be able to do that, but Bungie doesn’t think so. I can’t play the thing I actually want to until I’ve done weeks worth of the chores Bungie has set up.

The problem is that they make it so you can level up by doing anything, there will always be one thing that is the most efficient to do (e.g., the loot cave) and everyone will feel forced into doing that one thing instead of feeling forced into doing a variety of things. I like the occasional nudge to try something different, but it's also pretty obvious how that would be annoying. It's definitely a negative of the current investment system, as I'm not sure a truly harmonious balance is possible for everyone.

You got it!

It's a no win situation:

1. All activities can progress you. Then players will find the most efficient one and grind it.
2. Progression is spread out (as in the powerful engram system), and so to progress players must play things they may not enjoy.

Either way is bad. I don't see an alternative.

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You got it!

It's a no win situation:

1. All activities can progress you. Then players will find the most efficient one and grind it.
2. Progression is spread out (as in the powerful engram system), and so to progress players must play things they may not enjoy.

Either way is bad. I don't see an alternative.

I don’t see how they even a debate. Option 1 is undeniably more player friendly. Because you can just do what you want. If you want to do the efficient but boring thing, go for it. Or you can actually just play whatever is the most fun, instead of feeling forced to go to a different activity to make meaningful progress.

Option 1 is a win-win for players.

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You got it!

It's a no win situation:

1. All activities can progress you. Then players will find the most efficient one and grind it.
2. Progression is spread out (as in the powerful engram system), and so to progress players must play things they may not enjoy.

Either way is bad. I don't see an alternative.

I don’t see how they even a debate. Option 1 is undeniably more player friendly. Because you can just do what you want. If you want to do the efficient but boring thing, go for it. Or you can actually just play whatever is the most fun, instead of feeling forced to go to a different activity to make meaningful progress.

Option 1 is a win-win for players.

I also don't feel "forced" to do something or like I "must" do it to play the game. I play what I want and level up. Is there a more efficient way? Sure, but I would rather have fun. So yeah, Option 1 all the way.

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You got it!

It's a no win situation:

1. All activities can progress you. Then players will find the most efficient one and grind it.
2. Progression is spread out (as in the powerful engram system), and so to progress players must play things they may not enjoy.

Either way is bad. I don't see an alternative.

I don’t see how they even a debate. Option 1 is undeniably more player friendly. Because you can just do what you want. If you want to do the efficient but boring thing, go for it. Or you can actually just play whatever is the most fun, instead of feeling forced to go to a different activity to make meaningful progress.

Option 1 is a win-win for players.

You'd think so at first… but the overall balance of the progression would be tweaked to accommodate for all the grinding of single activities. Players who don't do this will find themselves with a steeper hill to climb so to speak.

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You got it!

It's a no win situation:

1. All activities can progress you. Then players will find the most efficient one and grind it.
2. Progression is spread out (as in the powerful engram system), and so to progress players must play things they may not enjoy.

Either way is bad. I don't see an alternative.

I don’t see how they even a debate. Option 1 is undeniably more player friendly. Because you can just do what you want. If you want to do the efficient but boring thing, go for it. Or you can actually just play whatever is the most fun, instead of feeling forced to go to a different activity to make meaningful progress.

Option 1 is a win-win for players.

You'd think so at first… but the overall balance of the progression would be tweaked to accommodate for all the grinding of single activities. Players who don't do this will find themselves with a steeper hill to climb so to speak.

It's actually not at all a steeper climb. It's an easier climb really. It just takes longer and I don't mean longer over hours played, just over a longer period of time.

And you have to be talking theory right now right? Because it can't be experience talking as you haven't played in over a year now? I don't play often, but at least I get on once a month.

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And you have to be talking theory right now right? Because it can't be experience talking as you haven't played in over a year now?

610 Days and counting.

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The current meta is much, much closer to Option 1 than this thread makes it seem. It's really only a grind for people playing the current season trying to do everything Week One...

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The current meta is much, much closer to Option 1 than this thread makes it seem. It's really only a grind for people playing the current season trying to do everything Week One...

Actually yeah, playing nothing but Survival PvP is a great way of getting to the soft cap right now.

But I think the broader point I was trying to make in this thread and in previous threads is that there are simply too many systems layered on top of each other with competing positives and negatives, and that the game could really benefit if Bungie stepped back, took a holistic approach, and reworked them with an eye on maximizing the utility of existing content and whatever new is coming down the pipe

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The current meta is much, much closer to Option 1 than this thread makes it seem. It's really only a grind for people playing the current season trying to do everything Week One...

Actually yeah, playing nothing but Survival PvP is a great way of getting to the soft cap right now.

But I think the broader point I was trying to make in this thread and in previous threads is that there are simply too many systems layered on top of each other with competing positives and negatives, and that the game could really benefit if Bungie stepped back, took a holistic approach, and reworked them with an eye on maximizing the utility of existing content and whatever new is coming down the pipe

The soft cap isn’t the problem. Everything and anything gets you to the soft cap. I think I was there the first night of the season. It’s getting beyond that where the problem is.

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The soft cap isn’t the problem. Everything and anything gets you to the soft cap. I think I was there the first night of the season. It’s getting beyond that where the problem is.

Maybe we're talking about different things, but the current soft cap is 1050 and that is more than enough to do all the new content.

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There are two soft caps. I’m talking about the first, at which you have to start doing specific activities to get powerful drops (Prime Engrams notwithstanding). I’m not sure where that actually is this season. 1020? Earlier? 1050 is the point where you have to chase Pinnacles.

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There are two soft caps. I’m talking about the first, at which you have to start doing specific activities to get powerful drops (Prime Engrams notwithstanding). I’m not sure where that actually is this season. 1020? Earlier? 1050 is the point where you have to chase Pinnacles.

Major Crucible rank up drops also go up to 1050, so it is possible to just play that, although it would be slow. Edge case I know.

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I can’t remember if I knew that. Still, that’s not exactly great progress. If Primes dropped often enough it might not be awful, though.

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I feel like primes drop all the time, but I guess I do play a lot?

I recognize I'm not in your position, but I strongly suspect you are self-excluding yourself from content if you're thinking the soft cap prevents you from trying to play stuff with us.

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No, it’s preventing me from doing the one single thing the game has to offer that I actually want to experience. And sure, I’m technically high enough to do it, but that’s only because I used the exploit at the beginning of the season, and I’m still not actually at the level the game says I should be.

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The current meta is much, much closer to Option 1 than this thread makes it seem.

I think that’s definitely true . . . when there’s a significant content drop. When there’s new strikes, new Crucible maps, new zones, doing all that stuff is fine because there’s actually new stuff to do, instead of just doing the same exact things I’ve been doing for years now.

Which is why statements like this

It's really only a grind for people playing the current season trying to do everything Week One...

really bother me. Of course I want to do Prophecy on week one, it’s the only real new content in the game!

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Which is why statements like this

It's really only a grind for people playing the current season trying to do everything Week One...

really bother me. Of course I want to do Prophecy on week one, it’s the only real new content in the game!

It's the only new content in the game you consider real. I don't even disagree with you about its relevance, but there's a lot more to this season than it. I, for one, am having a blast helping all the New Lighters get their old Raid Exotics with the loot drop event. Every week, there's a piece of lore behind a pretty challenging (if unpunishing) story mission, leading up to Y4. There would be even more planetary lore, but they pushed it back with the delay. Hell even Contact and upgrading Drifter's oven has its merits.

Destiny has never been good with content drop pacing. You want to get up in arms about that, I'll definitely join you. But I am seeing the "optimal grind path" getting wider and wider.

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You’re right, the story missions were neat (or the two of them I did). But even those are at the end of a sort of ridiculous list of chores. The whole game feels like chores without any real consideration for the amount of time required to get through them.

Damnit, I need to quit. It makes me slightly angry just thinking about how much bullshit Bungie thinks I should have to do to enjoy the game and I haven’t even played it in months.

It’s so maddening because there’s such a great game buried in there somewhere. It’s honestly a little sad to me where the game is right now.

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You’re right, the story missions were neat (or the two of them I did). But even those are at the end of a sort of ridiculous list of chores. The whole game feels like chores without any real consideration for the amount of time required to get through them.

Damnit, I need to quit.

dooooooooo iiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttt

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You’re right, the story missions were neat (or the two of them I did). But even those are at the end of a sort of ridiculous list of chores. The whole game feels like chores without any real consideration for the amount of time required to get through them.

Damnit, I need to quit.

dooooooooo iiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttt

Oh, no, I have. I haven’t play in months.

I just meant I need to quit engaging and bitching so much here. Bungie doesn’t have any interest in making the actual game I’d want to play, and I imagine my rhetoric here is as tiresome to read as it is for me to think about.

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My point isn’t the actual gear, but the power level. I want to do the new dungeon. I can’t unless I first play whatever mix of activities they determine I can to actually level up. After those are done, i might as well stop because nothing else will give me any substantial progress towards the actual thing I want to do.

Just checked - you've got a character at 1033. That's above the level at which Speed went through the first time... Korny too. (both were in the 1020s, I think. Korny might have even been lower.) You'd be squishy... but not so squishy that it would be terrible. (Well, that last room would be tough, but by then you'd know enough to be careful.)

I'd be happy to run it with you (finding a 3rd would be no trouble, either). I get what you're saying... but in this one particular case, you're wrong. :)

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Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny. That’s sort of where my renewed disappointment comes from—I logged in last night only to be treated with a new list of chores that didn’t seem like any fun. Zavala had a new quest to prepare for the Arrival. Cool! Only I talked to Sloane and she wanted me to do some Patrols and kill 150 Hive or whatever. Like, seriously? Is this really what they have to offer? That or grinding out far too many objectives just like that for Solstice armor? It’s so disheartening, and the entire game is designed like that right now. It’s just a bummer.

I’m . . . interested in trying the new expansion. I hope it’s good, but I certainly don’t expect it to be as good as Forsaken or The Taken King. I think I’m going to be a fall expansion only player from this point. The core designs of the seasons just don’t work for me. I suppose it’s about time I accept that instead of just bitching about it here so much. (:

That’ll be easier going forward, because from here on out I won’t have prepaid for the whole year’s worth of seasons, so I won’t be able to jump in and try any of them out only to be disappointed.

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Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny.

It's fun when that happens. I have a medical appointment a few times a week and every now and then there's a guy there to take my temperature who recognizes my Destiny shirt. (I've usually got one on.) I've thought about inviting him to play but he seems to primarily be into Trials/Crucible guy.

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I've thought about inviting him to play but he seems to primarily be into Trials/Crucible guy.

I feel personally attacked.

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Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny.

It's fun when that happens. I have a medical appointment a few times a week and every now and then there's a guy there to take my temperature who recognizes my Destiny shirt. (I've usually got one on.) I've thought about inviting him to play but he seems to primarily be into Trials/Crucible guy.

I was once at a restaurant and there were people waiting outside for a table and I kid you not, there were three of them each wearing each class T-shirt. And I almost decided to wear my Titan shirt... I would have just gone out and high five the Titan.

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Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny. That’s sort of where my renewed disappointment comes from—I logged in last night only to be treated with a new list of chores that didn’t seem like any fun. Zavala had a new quest to prepare for the Arrival. Cool! Only I talked to Sloane and she wanted me to do some Patrols and kill 150 Hive or whatever. Like, seriously? Is this really what they have to offer? That or grinding out far too many objectives just like that for Solstice armor? It’s so disheartening, and the entire game is designed like that right now. It’s just a bummer.

I’m . . . interested in trying the new expansion. I hope it’s good, but I certainly don’t expect it to be as good as Forsaken or The Taken King. I think I’m going to be a fall expansion only player from this point. The core designs of the seasons just don’t work for me. I suppose it’s about time I accept that instead of just bitching about it here so much. (:

That’ll be easier going forward, because from here on out I won’t have prepaid for the whole year’s worth of seasons, so I won’t be able to jump in and try any of them out only to be disappointed.

I'd offer to get your Pinnacles for you each week, but starting today, I've got a date shooting space zombies while using alien dragonflies as skateboards in order to build my own mech... You know how it is...

But yeah, I'm pretty much done with reasons to hop onto D2 on either my or Sammy's profile, besides helping others, so if you ever need a boost or teammate, I can hop on.

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Heh, like I’m going to grind out Destiny when there’s new Warframe to play. . .

Although that will have to wait until I get back from vacation. I’m too deep into Bloodborne to stop now.

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I will try and make some time to play some more Bloodborne.
Make it to Vicar Amelia yet?

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Yeah, I actually breezed through her. She was close enough to the Cleric Beast that she didn’t feel too difficult. I also killed the Witch of Hemwick the last time I played. She’s obviously not difficult, but it was a novel fight that I enjoyed. I haven’t gone the other direction yet, which I think is into the Forbidden Woods. I’m going to do that next to get into the Clinic to find the Cainhurst Summons, I think.

I poked around the Nightmare from the DLC, but the two Hunters right at the beginning destroyed me, so I’m putting that off for now. I really want the Moonlight Sword, though.

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Yeah, I actually breezed through her. She was close enough to the Cleric Beast that she didn’t feel too difficult. I also killed the Witch of Hemwick the last time I played. She’s obviously not difficult, but it was a novel fight that I enjoyed. I haven’t gone the other direction yet, which I think is into the Forbidden Woods. I’m going to do that next to get into the Clinic to find the Cainhurst Summons, I think.

I poked around the Nightmare from the DLC, but the two Hunters right at the beginning destroyed me, so I’m putting that off for now. I really want the Moonlight Sword, though.

Nice! Vicar gave me some trouble the first couple times but nowhere near as bad as the poison from the beast. I enjoyed the Witch fight as well - the area was pretty neat and not overly complex.

Yes there are alot more hunters in the DLC than anywhere else in the game really. And they are far from push overs. It gets easier once you get leveled a bit but they are still tough.

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I’ve heard the DLC is actually easier on NG+, due to the way the scaling works somehow.

I’ll probably just do it near the end and have Moonlight Sword for NG+.

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[image]

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But yeah, I'm pretty much done with reasons to hop onto D2 on either my or Sammy's profile, besides helping others, so if you ever need a boost or teammate, I can hop on.

Hey what about D1? Still lookin for those acheements...

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Oh, I know that. I even asked about specifically here not too long ago. But the activity says 1040, so that’s the point where I would actually considered my grinding safely “finished.”

I will take you up on that sometime before the season ends, though.

Yesterday I went to Best Buy to pick something up. I wore my Seventh Column shirt, and the guy at the door noticed and we talked Destiny for twenty or thirty minutes before I actually went in to get what I needed. It was great, and it really got me in the mood to play Destiny. That’s sort of where my renewed disappointment comes from—I logged in last night only to be treated with a new list of chores that didn’t seem like any fun. Zavala had a new quest to prepare for the Arrival. Cool! Only I talked to Sloane and she wanted me to do some Patrols and kill 150 Hive or whatever. Like, seriously? Is this really what they have to offer? That or grinding out far too many objectives just like that for Solstice armor? It’s so disheartening, and the entire game is designed like that right now. It’s just a bummer.

See, this is the point where I feel like I can agree with you. There's way too many kill N _enemy_var parts of quests. It's not a goal that I enjoy, and it NEVER makes sense from a lore perspective. (At least with the masterwork/catalyst is's relevant and something I view as something to be don'e almost accidentally, or at least in parallel.) The "collect drops from this enemy type" kinda fix the story problem, but it's still just a patrol beacon dressed up in dad's quest suit.

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That sort of proves his point a bit.

No one runs Menagerie anymore because it’s not relevant anymore for the investment side of the game. No matter how fun an activity is, most people won’t play it if it’s not giving out current gear. If the investment side of the game wasn’t there (or even if it was more forgiving and old activities didn’t cap out and always gave current or Powerful gear), that wouldn’t be the case. Bungie uses the investment system to drive players to new activities, instead of focusing on just making fun activities or letting players just play the things they enjoy.

The focus of the game is no longer "to have fun." The goal is "get the best gear" and when we get that gratification, our brain tricks into thinking it's fun. Getting the reward is fun...how we got it has taken a back seat.

I played some Crucible a couple weeks ago with some fellow forum goers. We did Iron Banner. I was light level 1000. I got destroyed. Someone asked me why I "quit" playing Destiny, and my answer was, I didn't quit, the game just outpaced me.

Crucible has never been fun for me. I do enjoy strikes, missions, open roaming and other light lifting activities. But my character is now so weak, those things are all I can do. And while it's relaxing, it's not "fun". And there really is no way for me to rank up my character unless I grind which is very "not fun"

The focus of the game is no longer "to have fun." The concept of [paraphrase] "make 30 seconds of fun, then do it again" is waaaaay far off in the rear view mirror.

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That sort of proves his point a bit.

No one runs Menagerie anymore because it’s not relevant anymore for the investment side of the game. No matter how fun an activity is, most people won’t play it if it’s not giving out current gear. If the investment side of the game wasn’t there (or even if it was more forgiving and old activities didn’t cap out and always gave current or Powerful gear), that wouldn’t be the case. Bungie uses the investment system to drive players to new activities, instead of focusing on just making fun activities or letting players just play the things they enjoy.

The focus of the game is no longer "to have fun." The goal is "get the best gear" and when we get that gratification, our brain tricks into thinking it's fun. Getting the reward is fun...how we got it has taken a back seat.

I played some Crucible a couple weeks ago with some fellow forum goers. We did Iron Banner. I was light level 1000. I got destroyed. Someone asked me why I "quit" playing Destiny, and my answer was, I didn't quit, the game just outpaced me.

Crucible has never been fun for me. I do enjoy strikes, missions, open roaming and other light lifting activities. But my character is now so weak, those things are all I can do. And while it's relaxing, it's not "fun". And there really is no way for me to rank up my character unless I grind which is very "not fun"

The focus of the game is no longer "to have fun." The concept of [paraphrase] "make 30 seconds of fun, then do it again" is waaaaay far off in the rear view mirror.

OK, but IB is one of only 2 Crucible modes where power level matters (and both of those are limited time options). If you have never enjoyed Crucible, It's not surprising you didn't like the mode designed to benefit people who focus on it. (Even those of us who do like Crucible have real issues with Iron Banner…)

I don't understand the phrase "The focus of the game is no longer 'to have fun.' ". The GAME never had that focus. Players can have a focus to have fun. The game can have a focus to provide fun. I'm not just being pedantic here, it's always weird to have people come in and tell me that I'm not having fun with Destiny. I was tricked into believing a lie, gullible old me. That is still my focus and if I'm not having fun I do something else. There's no longer any gear reason for anyone I know to run Scourge, but we still do it a lot because it's a fun thing to do and can be done in a reasonable amount of time (and with a more flexible number of people then other raids). Other raids are still fun, but have organizational barriers (requires exactly 6 people - no more and no less, or take WAY too long)

Has destiny changed the game to not be "to provide fun" I don't know. Seems fairly subjective. I can say I feel pretty strongly that they listen to the wrong people about what the game should be. I think a lot of decisions were made to appease streamers who have a different idea of what "fun" is and that it gets conflated with the needs of their business — needs the vast majority of people do not have. I think internally there are too many people who want to recapture the fun times they had playing World of Warcraft, both because I don't find that sort of game fun, and because I think a lot of these things can't be brought over piecemeal and retro-fitted into Destiny.. I can't think of what has changed to make me doubt their motives rather then their competence, or strategy. And I would only play for as long as I find it fun

How much fun I find it goes in waves, and some of that is because the game is so large and opaque that sometimes the fun gets hidden from me so it just seems like the overly-familiar parts are what it has to offer. I end up doing exotic quests month after everyone else because I didn't;t understand what it was while it was contemporary, or even worse I'll miss it and it goes away (bye bye, felwinter's lie) Sometimes fun for me does mean trying to get a new weapon to play with or a new gear piece that will look cool or provide an exotic-level benefit (but chasing armor stat rolls or random-drop mods cross over the line into not fun for me). Given that, I see value in pruning Destiny 2. Especially since they don't want to make a Destiny 3, and so the infinite version would eventually collapse under weight if it just kept growing. But I also think they are pruning back too much. I don't think they are going to be able to add enough to make up for the loss and provide enough for the average person, but we'll see. As it is it's going to be tough to see so much good stuff go away after a season of re-run content so I'd love to be surprised with an unexpected bounty of unannounced content.

I like Strikes and missions too, but really only a couple times with missions and strikes becomes a gamble - will I get one I like, or not, and matchmaking makes your teammates a gamble too. If that was all I liked in the game I would not feel like it had outpaced me, but that I long since used it up. I'm interested in when you say you can't level up. Nightfalls and dungeons provide pinnacle drops and feel to me like they are similar to Strikes/story missions. The weekly powerful drops come from just doing 3 strikes in a week (if that's too many I dare say you don't like strikes anymore either) (I never do daily story because of what I said above, but it offers something similar I think?) plus along the way you'll see prime engrams from that and just being part of the clan means Hawthorne will hand out powerful drops that all will get you high enough for nightfalls and dungeons.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

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I don't understand the phrase "The focus of the game is no longer 'to have fun.' ". The GAME never had that focus. Players can have a focus to have fun. The game can have a focus to provide fun. I'm not just being pedantic here, it's always weird to have people come in and tell me that I'm not having fun with Destiny. I was tricked into believing a lie, gullible old me.

I don't think anybody is saying that. If there was no fun to be had anywhere in Destiny, nobody would play it at all.

I can say I feel pretty strongly that they listen to the wrong people about what the game should be. I think a lot of decisions were made to appease streamers who have a different idea of what "fun" is and that it gets conflated with the needs of their business — needs the vast majority of people do not have. I think internally there are too many people who want to recapture the fun times they had playing World of Warcraft, both because I don't find that sort of game fun, and because I think a lot of these things can't be brought over piecemeal and retro-fitted into Destiny.

This is what we are saying. I personally would argue the very things that made WoW what it was are in fact detrimental to fun on the whole.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

I can only speak for myself here… but I feel like the shortcomings used to be mere mistakes and missteps. That those things were actively trying to be fixed and avoided; it was simply that Bungie was working out how to do so. But nowadays I see shortcomings intentionally designed in and integrated into the game (the implication being that their inclusion serves a different purpose than "fun"). You can disagree with me about what a shortcoming is, but this is how I see it.

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I don't understand the phrase "The focus of the game is no longer 'to have fun.' ". The GAME never had that focus. Players can have a focus to have fun. The game can have a focus to provide fun. I'm not just being pedantic here, it's always weird to have people come in and tell me that I'm not having fun with Destiny. I was tricked into believing a lie, gullible old me.

I don't think anybody is saying that.

I'm putting it in quotes for a reason. I guess the only part I didn't cite was "tricks" but that was for grammatical reasons.

If there was no fun to be had anywhere in Destiny, nobody would play it at all.

So, they just are not having the right kind of fun? I guess so if

This is what we are saying. I personally would argue the very things that made WoW what it was are in fact detrimental to fun on the whole.

I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

I can only speak for myself here… but I feel like the shortcomings used to be mere mistakes and missteps. That those things were actively trying to be fixed and avoided; it was simply that Bungie was working out how to do so. But nowadays I see shortcomings intentionally designed in and integrated into the game (the implication being that their inclusion serves a different purpose than "fun"). You can disagree with me about what a shortcoming is, but this is how I see it.

I'm not disagreeing with what a shortcoming is, but I also am not going to decide I didn't like the show because of a review of the show from the cheap seats, or I guess in your case, obstructed view. Anyway, that's all different than invalidating people's fun and wasn't really an answer to my question anyhow (and given you have not been playing it for so long I wasn't expecting you to answer the question).

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I guess all of this is to ask, what changed that makes you say the game is "no longer" made with a goal of people — or even you — having fun

Maybe me? Maybe I'm the thing that has changed. Maybe game culture as it is today is what has changed. The Destiny model is not unique to Destiny, it's a development process that many a game maker use.

I hate constantly drawing comparisons to the Bungie Halos, but for me, those were the pinnacle of fun games. Especially when it came to PvP. Remember Action Sack? Grifball? Fist A** Extreme? Ok, maybe that last one was a fan made pleasure but know what? We had the ability to make gametypes like FAE. The strategy of working with your team to get the best weapons on the map. Playing Headhunter and seeing flaming skulls go flying all over. Intense games of CTF on Blood Gulch. Then what happened at the end of everything single game? Nothing. Nothing happened. Until that voice chimes in, "alright let's go again."

So what changed? I guess the times have changed, man. The times.

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Bungie uses the investment system to drive players to new activities, instead of focusing on just making fun activities or letting players just play the things they enjoy.

I get the argument that without the investment system things sink or swim on their own. To me the value in having it is not only driving players to new activities, but in finding new joy in old activities. Personally, I almost never run strikes, but once or twice a season I don't mind the investment system pushing me into them, because I actually do end up enjoying it (the other day I was running them for Solstice Armor, and the modifiers happened to be Solar/Brawler, so I put on my Peregrine Greaves on my Titan and one-shot the boss in The Corrupted - that was cool).

My argument is that I don't think Bungie should depreciate an activity via the investment system until the activity has a suitable "new" replacement. If we wanted to make a spectrum of near-endgame PvE:

Strikes - 1 pinnacle and unique loon (soon to be depreciated)
Menagerie - a variety of unique loot (soon to depreciated)
Nightmare Hunts - 1 pinnacle
Nightfalls - 1 pinnacle and masterwork materials
Dungeon - 1 pinnacle/masterwork materials and unique loot (PoH's soon to be depreciated)
Raid - 1 pinnacle per encounter

That's not that huge of a spectrum to cover with relevant investment rewards, especially once you throw out Nightmare Hunts which aren't especially unique. Would having a pinnacle on Menagerie for the past year have been that big of a deal? I just think there's a more logical way to approach this.

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Too much content always available can cause content to become stale.

I don't think this is true. Too much shallow, uninteresting, or repetitive content makes it stale. Perhaps Bungie has simply run out of ideas for Destiny, or stretched it for far too long.

Most movie scripts could not sustain say, a 3 hour runtime. But that doesn't mean a great 3 hour movie is impossible.

This is why I paired that with the context that Destiny’s mechanics work best with community focus.

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This week they describe what exactly is happening with the content vaulting. Surprise, it’s just as half-asses as you probably thought it would be!

Gambit and Gambit Prime are combined into a slightly reworked Gambit Prime. None of the Prime armor perks work though, potentially to be reworked at a later date (wonder how long that will take!)

Exotic quests from the vaulted planets are gone, obviously. Those exotics will be acquired through an unexplained Memorial Kiosk (except Whisper and Outbreak Perfected, which are just gone). Exotic catalysts that are acquired from vaulted content will simply no longer be obtainable though! Hurray!

That’s it. Read it for slightly more detail.

I did consider ignoring this or writing a version of this post without the snark. But, honestly, fuck it. That was more thought than Bungie apparently puts into their decisions, so I figure it’s warranted.

I always appreciate when they focus the player base a bit. There also will still be SO MUCH to do.

I'm also intrigued by the idea of the Leviathan returning, but maybe in orbit over a different planet.

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That’s it. Read it for slightly more detail.

Here's a link to do that.

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At this point I'm ok with everything but getting rid of the Leviathan. It's one set of assets that just provide SO MUCH good stuff to do. 4-ish raids, Menagerie? I wonder if it's because the raid lairs were not Bungie creations and/or are super buggy.

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...one of the two movies of the week was ALREADY THE MOVIE OF THE WEEK LAST WEEK!

I mean, really, wtf.

(Yeah, I'm upset about some of the stuff that's getting removed as well. And i'm not thrilled with some of the decisions about how the stuff that's still in is being handled. But jiminy, they give out 2 emblems a friggin' week... you think they could get THIS part right.)

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THAB—Content Vault Edition (Destiny)