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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (Destiny)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, November 13, 2020, 13:08 (1450 days ago)
edited by INSANEdrive, Friday, November 13, 2020, 13:55

We've had some pretty solid Environments to run about in the last few years. Be it the Dreadnought or the Dreaming City, they have been expansive and well rendered environments to which could host a variety of play. Yet Europa, in the few days I've had to play (we've had to play), I have found a long enduring itch being scratched and much much more. Long enduring. In Halo 2, there was (in one of the final sets of DLC as I recall,) a Multiplayer level called "Terminal". It was the one where a train would barrel through the map, obliterating anything in its path. Fun! Well, for one reason or another, this map made me dream. I would look at the doors and wonder what was on the other side.

We now return to Destiny, and with Europa, I now know what is on the other side of the door.

Europa is vast. No NO! You don't understand unless you have really explored it... it's VAST! It just keeps going. And by the time you find that "end corner" (as it can't go forever), you've made such a journey that there is no need to wonder what is behind yet another door. You've already seen so much. SO MUCH! And there is SO MUCH! Every single part of this map is an Halo Level Skybox of Glory! I really should have pictures in this thread celebrating this Achievement by the Bungie Artisans, but I'm not. They just wouldn't do justice.

Yet, on the same coin, if you have seen the LONGGGG standing, practically ancient concept art from Destines earliest days, you have seen it. Y'all they nailed it. NAILED IT! I admit at times I stopped in my tracks because I felt like I was walking in a postcard dream.

[image] || [image]
And I quote:"You Did It. The Crazy Son of a Bitch, You Did It."

Any of this is presuming you can even see it as the weather system whips up, which might I add is SO FLIPP'N COOL! I can't be the only person who, as they were trudging through the snow, at times felt like they were on Hoth right? Anyone? Oh... and a quick side-note while I'm referencing Star Wars. The main base in Rii... the place at the very top of the map, still learning names here, that base where you fight Eramis looks like Jabbas Palace. Just say'n!

Anyway, Weather System. There is more. It gets even cooler, pun unintended. When the Storm is at it's hardest, AND ONLY at its hardest... it effects your movement. I noticed this while I was on my Sparrow. At first I thought it may have been something to do with the ice, which would be cool. If that is the case, it would be the first time since, well, Halo, that ice acted like ice (even if our vehicles don't use traction in quite the same way). Turned out, once I stopped, that my Sparrow started drifting in the direction the Wind was blowing. That freek'n blew (ah crap, another pun) me away! That's so cool! I kind of want to see what would happen if there was an Europa PvP map that had this system in it. (Does it sync, or is it per person?)

Oh! And the Snow! For those not in the know, snow is hard. Rendering snow to look "right" is hard. There are a fair number of subtleties that you would miss cognitively, unless you had to make it. You know when it's wrong, even if you don't know why it is wrong. This snow is... *chefs kiss*. I could still nit pick, but man... it's great! I especially love the snow indent. Next time you finish a public event, look to the ground. Look how unsettled the snow is! It looks just right! It's fantastic! Granted, the tech might not be all that new, but who cares! Results! MMMM! Fantastic!

The only gripe I have is the transition between outdoor and indoor spaces when the weather is kick'n the sight lines to nill. It doesn't feel quite right to me. I don't feel like I'm shielded from the storm. Granted, dilapidated buildings aren't the best shelter, but I should still feel a difference. I don't yet get that yet. Maybe it's the sound design (more howling?), or maybe there needs to be some tweek to the effect indoors (less fog and more "snow dust"? A shaken building from the wind?), but all in all, Bungie... y'all earn a ton of criticism. (An old sniper at the end? Really? Who ever thinks that was ok, fucking fire yourself already. I know that's hella strong, but I'm so done with these inept choices that keep happening. If only you and your group were as S+ class as the Art Team.)

But you've earned this too.

[image]

Well Done.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, November 21, 2020, 16:25 (1442 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That is to say that this is being written after someone has apparently beaten the raid. New Doors are now powered that were not before. So... with that said, If I may say...

OMG.

OMG OMG OMG.

Squeee!

[image]

(ノ◕ヮ◕)ノ*:・゚✧ THANK YOU BUNGIE!✧゚・: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)

Did I say immense? Boy, I didn't know the half of it. As I person who loves exploring the spaces, just out of the enjoyment of the sheer ambiance of exploring, I had to come here and make a quick addendum with another touch of praise.

Ok. Done. Back to... uh, *Squee*.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, November 21, 2020, 22:20 (1441 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

The new space is incredible.

I sort of wish Bungie would reevaluate how they designed these spaces a bit. The best ones, especially on Europa, are all big dead end hallways without a whole lot of reason to revisit. Sure, there are a few things that make you go to the far corners occasionally, but I wish they felt a bit more core to the experience.

I’m not really sure how they would even attempt to fix it, and Europa is the best they’ve ever done it. I just want more reason to spend more time in those spaces.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Saturday, November 21, 2020, 22:50 (1441 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The new space is incredible.

I sort of wish Bungie would reevaluate how they designed these spaces a bit. The best ones, especially on Europa, are all big dead end hallways without a whole lot of reason to revisit. Sure, there are a few things that make you go to the far corners occasionally, but I wish they felt a bit more core to the experience.

I’m not really sure how they would even attempt to fix it, and Europa is the best they’ve ever done it. I just want more reason to spend more time in those spaces.

I was just thinking about such things myself. This environment may be too good for a shooter. The only parity I can think of right now would be Mass Effect, as in I want to... ?be in the space. Role-playing... something?

I don't know.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Sunday, November 22, 2020, 06:21 (1441 days ago) @ cheapLEY

The new space is incredible.

I sort of wish Bungie would reevaluate how they designed these spaces a bit. The best ones, especially on Europa, are all big dead end hallways without a whole lot of reason to revisit. Sure, there are a few things that make you go to the far corners occasionally, but I wish they felt a bit more core to the experience.

I’m not really sure how they would even attempt to fix it, and Europa is the best they’ve ever done it. I just want more reason to spend more time in those spaces.

I’ve been struggling to find the words to describe how I feel about Europa, but I think you’re getting at my issue with it, at least partially. It’s BEAUTIFUL, no question. But by the 4th day of the expansion, I literally booted up the game, flew down to the landing zone next to Variks, stared at the screen for about 30 seconds, and turned off the game. By that point, I’d played through the BL campaign on 2 characters, and Europa felt completely exhausted to me. It’s got all these amazing looking locations, but there’s absolutely nothing to do in 70% of them.

I think the map layout is a big part of the problem. There are the 3 main hub spaces where we do all our patrol activities, and they’re... fine, I guess. And then there are the “spokes” that branch out from them; the Clovis labs, the fallen city, and the vex caves. And those 3 spokes are basically just linear paths with a couple branches. And these branches all lead to dead ends. Again, they’re beautiful. But functionally, they are long hallways that all lead to dead ends. Compare this to the Dreaming City, Moon, or even the Cosmodrome, where there are multiple connections between several of the zones which help create loads of different potential paths from location A to B. I find this makes exploration more enjoyable, but it has an even bigger impact on the story missions. Think of how many story missions sent us cris-crossing all over the moon or cosmodrome in different directions, starting and ending in different locations. It was ok that we were re-using many of the same playspaces. Now think about the story missions in Europa. Each mission sends us down one of these dead-end paths, and when they run out of dead-end paths to use they just re-use them and send us down each of them again. This makes the story missions feel extremely repetitive (some of them are darn near copy/pastes of earlier story missions).

I find this stuff all combines to make Europa one of the most artificial-feeling destinations in the game, despite the incredible visual presentation. It feels less like a real “place”, and more like a series of linear video game shooter missions that got bolted together via a few common “hub” zones.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, November 22, 2020, 07:40 (1441 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I don’t think you’re wrong necessarily, I guess it just doesn’t bother me all that much. I like the hub zones of Europa quite a bit (except for Asterion Abyss—sorry Bungie, Vex architecture blows. It’s a pain to navigate, it’s not all that appealing looking. It seems like a waste of effort when they could do literally anything else).

I think multiple landing zones ruined the way they designed Destinations. Even the vanilla D2 zones had lots of dead ends, mostly used during Adventures. Instead of making the loop back out somehow, they just figured folks would fast travel out. Europa just didn’t get the memo that it only really had one landing zone. I certainly miss only having one, I knew all the D1 areas much better than any of the D2 areas, even the ones I actively enjoyed being in. It was just too easy to fast travel to where I needed to go. That seems like an unambiguous bad thing, when you have these massive zones that no one spends any real time in.

Europa is sort of a mixed bag. I really love it. There’s a lot happening there, and I genuinely enjoy just roaming around the area doing all the little events that pop up. They added several more yesterday. However, it also feels like just another Destiny zone. Why not something more interesting? I genuinely want something like the Bray Exoscience facility, but massive. Make that the entire zone. Titan came close to that sort of feeling, I think, but that was also the worst zone probably ever in trend of unused dead ends. Hell, it’s the reason I was initially disappointed by the Dreaming City. How are you going to call a location the Dreaming City and none of it is in a city? The gameplay possibility in a space like that is so appealing. Look no further than the first encounter of Scourge. It rules! I want a whole Destination built like that.

At the very least, they could have alleviated some dead ends. You’re telling me they didn’t build a train tunnel from the city they lived in to the science facility they worked in? They didn’t build one from the science facility to the big ass Vex portal that was the primary source of everything they did? They just trundled through the snow? I don’t buy it.

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Europa is an Environment Masterclass (After Raid)

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Sunday, November 22, 2020, 16:56 (1441 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don’t think you’re wrong necessarily, I guess it just doesn’t bother me all that much. I like the hub zones of Europa quite a bit (except for Asterion Abyss—sorry Bungie, Vex architecture blows. It’s a pain to navigate, it’s not all that appealing looking. It seems like a waste of effort when they could do literally anything else).

I think multiple landing zones ruined the way they designed Destinations. Even the vanilla D2 zones had lots of dead ends, mostly used during Adventures. Instead of making the loop back out somehow, they just figured folks would fast travel out. Europa just didn’t get the memo that it only really had one landing zone. I certainly miss only having one, I knew all the D1 areas much better than any of the D2 areas, even the ones I actively enjoyed being in. It was just too easy to fast travel to where I needed to go. That seems like an unambiguous bad thing, when you have these massive zones that no one spends any real time in.

Europa is sort of a mixed bag. I really love it. There’s a lot happening there, and I genuinely enjoy just roaming around the area doing all the little events that pop up. They added several more yesterday. However, it also feels like just another Destiny zone. Why not something more interesting? I genuinely want something like the Bray Exoscience facility, but massive. Make that the entire zone. Titan came close to that sort of feeling, I think, but that was also the worst zone probably ever in trend of unused dead ends. Hell, it’s the reason I was initially disappointed by the Dreaming City. How are you going to call a location the Dreaming City and none of it is in a city? The gameplay possibility in a space like that is so appealing. Look no further than the first encounter of Scourge. It rules! I want a whole Destination built like that.

At the very least, they could have alleviated some dead ends. You’re telling me they didn’t build a train tunnel from the city they lived in to the science facility they worked in? They didn’t build one from the science facility to the big ass Vex portal that was the primary source of everything they did? They just trundled through the snow? I don’t buy it.

I definitely agree that Bungie has mostly failed to find ways to make patrol zones compelling past the first hour or two. I think that’s why I ultimately prefer having lots of landing zones. If I don’t particularly enjoy patrol activities, at least multiple landing zones makes it fast and convenient to get in and do what I need to do.

I will push back a bit on the point that all the other destinations have dead ends too. They do, you’re certainly right about that, but I’d argue they’re nowhere close to what we have on Europa. The best comparison I can think of is Mars. You know that path that leads up to Rasputin? The path that’s cool when you first go through it as part of a story mission, but every time after that it feels like a completely repetitive chore? Well Europa has 3 of those, and all these bounties or “quests” require us to run along these paths over and over and over. And since these spaces are technically really narrow patrol spaces (just without any patrol beacons) the enemy encounters are exactly the same each and every time. Typically, the only times in D2 where we get such long linear sections of the map to travers are during strikes, which feature far more exciting and unique encounters, and at the end you are sent to orbit. But all these Europa activities involve running way down these paths, fighting through the exact same clusters of patrol enemies every single time, and then you reach the end and either have to run all the way back or transmat to Variks. Locations like the Dreaming City managed to avoid this kind of thing almost completely. No matter where you are, you have multiple paths out which connect to several other parts of the map. It allowed them to create missions and objectives that could start and end almost anywhere, and they could take you along completely different paths from one mission to the next.

I just wish it felt like Bungie was learning from their previous releases. But to me it looks more and more like even when they get things right, it’s an accident and they don’t know how to replicate it (see Trials, TTK & Forsaken campaigns, loot systems, etc).

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