This reminds me of why I’m a fan of Bungie.

Sit for a minute

When I was young, questioning my sexuality and not quite understanding who I was, I had a lot of people speculating "is he gay?" or other way less friendly slurs. I didn't know the answer to that, because I didn't know what bisexuality was when I was a teenager.
— Robert Brookes 💖💜💙 (@Sphynxian) November 28, 2020

Click through for the full thread. TL;DR is this writer at Bungie, who is bi, wanted Saint and Osiris’s relationship to be more explicit, and he made it so.

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Sit for a minute

When I was young, questioning my sexuality and not quite understanding who I was, I had a lot of people speculating "is he gay?" or other way less friendly slurs. I didn't know the answer to that, because I didn't know what bisexuality was when I was a teenager.
— Robert Brookes 💖💜💙 (@Sphynxian) November 28, 2020

Click through for the full thread. TL;DR is this writer at Bungie, who is bi, wanted Saint and Osiris’s relationship to be more explicit, and he made it so.

How does this come across in game? What do you actually see them do? Is it more substantial than Devrim Kay's basically throwaway lines that he misses Mark?

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There are a few lore cards that go into depth. It was really sweet, well written, it felt like. I can’t remember which ones they were though.

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There are a few lore cards that go into depth.

Ah, so it's not even in the main audiovisual narrative.

It was really sweet, well written, it felt like. I can’t remember which ones they were though.

That's nice to hear, but I hope in the future these types of things actually make it into the main presentation of Bungie's stories.

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It is. The story for the seasonal content is told through audio recordings in Zavala’s office, Osiris is giving him status updates on his investigation. While not explicitly Osiris saying “I love him,” Osiris speaks of Saint in nearly every one, to the point of it being pretty obvious.

I hope for more as well, but they are barely telling a coherent narrative through the actual audiovisual medium, much less one that has any room for actually exploring meaningful relationships.

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It is. The story for the seasonal content is told through audio recordings in Zavala’s office, Osiris is giving him status updates on his investigation. While not explicitly Osiris saying “I love him,” Osiris speaks of Saint in nearly every one, to the point of it being pretty obvious.

I hope for more as well, but they are barely telling a coherent narrative through the actual audiovisual medium, much less one that has any room for actually exploring meaningful relationships.

We also need to remember that Destiny isn’t a game that features ANY romantic relationships in the foreground of the narrative. It would actually be a bit jarring if they made a big deal about a relationship between Saint and Osiris, or any 2 characters... not because of anything to do with the relationship itself, but because romance just doesn’t really play a part in Destiny’s story (at least as far as the primary in-game narrative is concerned).

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Click through for the full thread. TL;DR is this writer at Bungie, who is bi, wanted Saint and Osiris’s relationship to be more explicit, and he made it so.

I suppose it's difficult when you join an existing process, but Rowling Revisions on characters and their relationships always feels somewhat dishonest to me. More so when tons of lore already establishes a specific bond (Saint calling Osiris "Brother" just makes their romantic relationship weirder if they want to say "nope, they been gay the whole time!").
I won't go so far as to call it "pandering", because it's not quite from left field, but I feel like if their relationship was intended to be romantic from the beginning, as Brookes claims, then lore nerds should have had a bone or something to pick at that would confirm it. Of course, that was the point of him wanting to make it more explicit this past season, but when done so strongly, it just doesn't come off as organic.

It reminds me a bit of the Celeste writer deciding around DLC time that, 'ya know what? the protagonist is trans!'. Though in that instance, the writer acknowledges that it was not originally written through that lens... But yeah, given the themes that the game already tackles, it does make sense for that to be a fact of the character, so the "revelation" as not as... tacked-on as it would otherwise be? Certainly not as bad as most LGBTQ+ reveals tend to be.

I think one of the best ways to develop a romantic story (or pieces of a romantic story) in an organic way (gay or otherwise) is to focus on the trust between characters, rather than on their admiration or respect of one another. The lore bits that people have been referencing as evidence of a relationship (such as this Warlock bond in D1) focuses on the latter details more than the trust aspect, and that to me just reeks of straw grasping, and the kind of bits that writers will latch onto and say "see? been there the whole time!".

And what's weird is that Brookes agrees with this:

Queerbaiting exists, it's not kind, and it has no place in a queer-friendly community or within spaces that promote LGBT rights. There's a place and time for nuance and that isn't it, because to do so is actively damaging to a marginalized community.
— Robert Brookes 💖💜💙 (@Sphynxian) November 28, 2020

Even Saint's letters to Osiris just feel like "Man, I think you're great! And the city is also great!"

You ever watch The Legend of Korra? Throughout the series, the characters of Korra and Asami are written as only having heterosexual relationships. But early on, they start developing trust towards one another, and when Korra is seriously injured and in recovery, she only writes to Asami, instead of the character that had been established as her love interest. This is one of several "wait a minute" moments that the writers managed to blend into the show (that was otherwise at the mercy of Nickelodeon's finger-wags). Funny enough, they started planting the seeds early, because they didn't actually think they could get away with explicitly showing them get together, until Nickelodeon gave them the okay (with caveats, as explained in the show's post-mortem) So by the time the show ends with them together, it was an "of course" moment, despite their friendship starting out as simply platonic, but they trusted each other completely by the time they got together. That made the whole thing feel like it was earned, and honest. So when the creator titled his post-show article as "Korrasami Is Canon", nobody was shocked, because, yeah, we know.

Ultimately, I do think that a "better late than never" approach is way better than a "leave them guessing" ambiguity, so I'm happy to have Word of God put their foot down. And maybe it's asking a lot from a guy who probably doesn't write a whole lot of romance/relationship stuff, but I hope that moving forward, writers don't continue to tiptoe around details if they insist on drawing attention to the footprints left before. If they lead somewhere, I hope they actually go somewhere with them. And no, tucked away in lore is not where such details should be left. I want them to put it in the game. You can only impact people with an emblem and pin and "representation matters" claims for so long. Sooner or later, you gotta do the walk with your onscreen characters if that is a detail you want to reveal.

How is a whole other subject. Maybe have them host a Crimson doubles event as a couple that gets you to the Lighthouse?

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I think the last bit at better late than never is important.

This isn’t JK Rowling insisting Dumbledore has always been gay without so much as subtext hinting at it, and her only saying it after the fact. Not to mention the new movies that have Dumbledore as a pretty important character that still don’t even hint at it being the case.

Even if it wasn’t intended, there are things in the past that could be read that way, even if only at a stretch. And now it’s actual text. It’s not some after the fact retcon in an IP with no new material. It’s actually canon in a demonstrable way. That’s important.

I appreciate a little subtly in story telling, subtext rather than text, but I can appreciate this being important enough to be a little heavy handed. If anything, I mostly agree with Nevin, in that this isn’t and hasn’t really been a story with romantic relationships. I’m okay with that changing, I’m just not confident they can do so meaningfully.

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I am sure this was great for Robert, and it obviously meant a lot to him so I won't take that away.

However, gay characters have long been in the background when included. Either unimportant to the story, or as fascination / humor for the other characters or audience. In some ways this actually minimizes them. Not on an individual story basis, but collectively. If you're gay and all you see are gay people with small story roles, or are otherwise on the offshoots of the story, then it re-enforces the notion that they themselves are minor in society. Granted Cruel is right; Destiny has barely any story anyway so it's not much of a slight.

However I very much doubt Bungie would actually make a game with an LGBTQ main character, or have a relationship exist prominently and be of vital importance to the story. I mean, you can play as non-binary in the New Call of Duty Cold War. Call of Duty! Where Reagan is ordering you around, at a time when he didn't give a shit about gay or trans people, and they couldn't even BE in the military!

May I remind you you have two choices for your guardian: male or female.

So forgive me if I don't see this as really that bold. I wouldn't hold this up as an example of Bungie being super progressive. It's buried away in the lore and not even part of the main audiovisual presentation. It's absolutely FINE, but it's kind of the bare minimum above "don't have gay characters at all". But it's not wrong either, as not every story has to be about someone gay.

So it just is, and it made a big difference to this guy, but not really on the cultural level.

P.S. I finally got windows working to play Tell Me Why.

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May I remind you you have two choices for your guardian: male or female.

It's my understanding that this was recently changed to masculine/feminine.

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May I remind you you have two choices for your guardian: male or female.

It's my understanding that this was recently changed to masculine/feminine.

It's still a binary option!

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May I remind you you have two choices for your guardian: male or female.

It's my understanding that this was recently changed to masculine/feminine.

It's still a binary option!

Not really. It's just choosing to be closer to one side of the spectrum rather than the other.

Male/Female is Black/White. Masculine/Feminine is just saying I would rather be more Black than I am White or vice versa.

At least that is how I see it.

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

Sliders for infinity body choices.

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

Sliders for infinity body choices.

[image]

I can wear the Eater of Worlds Titan armor.

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

Sliders for infinity body choices.

Okay, now what’s a realistic solution?

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

Sliders for infinity body choices.

Okay, now what’s a realistic solution?

You realize this has been done literally for decades in other games right?

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What’s the solution? There are two body types in the game, you have to pick one of them.

Sliders for infinity body choices.

Okay, now what’s a realistic solution?

You realize this has been done literally for decades in other games right?

In games where it was planned that way from the beginning. How do you make that work in Destiny? There are two versions of every armor in the game, one for each body type. How do you make those fit on fully customizable body shapes? It’s looked horrible in every game I’ve played that does it—you just end up with stretched, weird textures.

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Every time I'm pulled into a development project that's already underway, the conversation goes like this:

Me: Have you thought about doing x?

Dev: Yes, but we can't because y.

The devs are usually right.

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I don't. All I know is what has been accomplished and is being accomplished by others.

Bungie didn't set Destiny up for this. Fine. But they can be thinking about it for Matter. Even beyond the issue of gender it's just a good idea anyway. And I don't think say, CD Projekt Red, has more resources and ability to do this than Bungie.

At the very least you could offer a finite variety of body types and appearances instead of just 2. At the VERY very least you could offer 3: masculine, feminine, and neither.

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I don't. All I know is what has been accomplished and is being accomplished by others.

Bungie didn't set Destiny up for this. Fine. But they can be thinking about it for Matter. Even beyond the issue of gender it's just a good idea anyway. And I don't think say, CD Projekt Red, has more resources and ability to do this than Bungie.

At the very least you could offer a finite variety of body types and appearances instead of just 2. At the VERY very least you could offer 3: masculine, feminine, and neither.

This post is SO different from your earlier one and demonstrates some level of awareness that there are varying options with varying levels of difficulty.

Comparing the resources of CD Projekt Red and Bungie and not discussing the possible issues of how those resources are used is a thorny issue for me.

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I don't. All I know is what has been accomplished and is being accomplished by others.

Bungie didn't set Destiny up for this. Fine. But they can be thinking about it for Matter. Even beyond the issue of gender it's just a good idea anyway. And I don't think say, CD Projekt Red, has more resources and ability to do this than Bungie.

At the very least you could offer a finite variety of body types and appearances instead of just 2. At the VERY very least you could offer 3: masculine, feminine, and neither.

This post is SO different from your earlier one and demonstrates some level of awareness that there are varying options with varying levels of difficulty.

Comparing the resources of CD Projekt Red and Bungie and not discussing the possible issues of how those resources are used is a thorny issue for me.

To take this point further, it comes down (at least partially) to a question of resource allocation and “bang for Bungie’s buck”. Given the kind of game Destiny is, and the current state of the game, I would argue that offering a wider range of selectable body types for our guardians is so far down the list of priorities that it isn’t even worth considering. There are huge, gaping problems with D2 right now that effect every single player most of the time they are playing. Beyond that, it’s not like adding a range of different body types would be a purely good thing for the game either. The character models were very carefully designed to have clearly distinct frames and outlines so that players could differentiate between hunters, warlocks, and titans at a glance. Even having the male and female variations of each class is adding enough into the mix to make those split-second distinctions tricky at times.
So a developer like Bungie probably looks at a situation like this and says “would more body types be nice? Sure. Will it cause other problems? It might. Does it significantly increase our workload? Well, every single piece of armour needs at least 1 extra model generated, plus whatever other resources need to go to animation, memory allocation, test, etc etc etc”. So this becomes one out of a million trade-off issues that crop up over the course of making a game.

Now if it turned out that enough players cared enough about it that it actually made sense for Bungie to prioritize it, then maybe they would. But we’re 7 years into Destiny, and I haven’t seen the issue come up once on Reddit (which is not to say that it has never come up, but certainly not with any regularity). Heck, if Bungie announced tomorrow that they’re adding multiple body types into D2, I’d add that fact onto my mental pile of evidence that Bungie no longer knows what they’re doing as a studio... not because there is anything wrong with that feature, but because IMO Bungie has come pretty damn close to killing this franchise with Beyond Light, and they need to be putting all their resources into areas that make the biggest difference for the most players possible.

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You know you’d be happy if they let you have a beard :-p

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You know you’d be happy if they let you have a beard :-p

I haven’t taken my helmet off since the first week of D1Y1... I don’t know or care what my guardians look like under their armour, lol.

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This reminds me of why I’m a fan of Bungie. (Destiny)