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Mask of Bakris sucks. (Destiny)

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 18:44 (1209 days ago)

It was the main exotic I was excited to get.

I ran that Lost Sector over 20 times to get it. Only to find out two reasons it blows.

First is that it has a 10 second cool down before your dodge even starts to recharge. So my max mobility build has a 21 second dodge and instead of an 11 second.

The other is that it only works if you’re using Stasis. I only wanted it for my Nightstalker build, but it doesn’t work. ):

What a dumb load of horseshit.

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 19:50 (1209 days ago) @ cheapLEY

... this felt pretty damn satisfying :)

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 20:07 (1209 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Yeah that was fantastic.

It’s probably still an okay exotic, but those two things I mentioned mean I’ll never use it. ): I guess it’s on me for not actually looking up what it did, but if I had known that I would not have spent over two hours grinding it out this evening.

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Saturday, December 05, 2020, 21:15 (1209 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Yeah that was fantastic.

It’s probably still an okay exotic, but those two things I mentioned mean I’ll never use it. ): I guess it’s on me for not actually looking up what it did, but if I had known that I would not have spent over two hours grinding it out this evening.

No, I’m totally with you.

It’s like the sandbox team keeps forgetting that PvP exists, so when they design new abilities they come up with all these crazy powerful things that are whacky fun, but then some tester points out that it utterly destroys the crucible. From there, Bungie either ignores the tester and ships it anyway (stasis), or they make some kind of tweak to prevent it from being too dominant in PvP and utterly suck the fun out of it in the process.

I just wish they’d be smarter about the way they design powers and abilities in general. There are too many abilities in this game that can’t be reliably countered outside of special circumstances. That’s something I’ve always appreciated about games like Splinter Cell or Titanfall... there are ways to counter your opponents’ abilities other than just thinking “gosh, I hope they miss!”. I’m obviously talking about the crucible, but PvE as well. Our guardians move too slowly to effectively dodge most attacks. Bungie’s approach to balancing the various classes seems to be “give each of them abilities that the other classes don’t have” with little or no thought out towards how each subclass might counter the abilities of other subclasses. What defence does a warlock have against a shoulder charge? I wish we had more opportunities to do stuff like the move I managed to pull here at the 9:43 mark where I dodge around his super attack:

Moments like that are so damn amazing, but they so rarely feel possible the way the sandbox is designed.

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 07:03 (1209 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

Korny and I were talking about something sort of similar last night in regards to weapon perks.

He had the new energy grenade launcher from the Wrathborn Hunts. It has Ambitious Assassin and Auto-loading Holster. If you get a multikill and then swap weapons, auto-loading holster apparently cancels out ambitious assassin, so you’ll only get the single shot instead of the two that the multikill should give you. Like what the fuck? Maybe it’s just me, but that seems like something incredibly obvious to test, and if it doesn’t work, either fucking fix it or don’t allow those perks to roll together. It feels like they out absolutely zero consideration into weapon perks. They made a big list of perks, then just put them in a big old bucket and called it a day. There’s seemingly no thought being which perks can be on which weapon types, it seems like there’s very rarely any synergy between perks in any real way, and when there is it mostly seems accidental.

I have a Trustee with Surplus and Wellspring. They are sort of unremarkable in their own, I think. Surplus boosts handling and stability for each ability that is charged, and Wellspring boosts ability charge rate on kills. That’s a smart combination of perks! And I’m honestly like half sure that it’s even an intentional combination, because of little consideration most perks seem to get.

There’s an absolutely amazing game hidden in the bones of Destiny. It’s like Bungie gets everything to about 75% and just calls it good enough and ships it. And I get it, there are a lot of perks and a lot of combinations to test in the game, but jesus, when did testing stop being a part of making games?

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 17:57 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

What defence does a warlock have against a shoulder charge?

Stasis grenade, shotgun, heck even jumping works half the time.

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I completely agree. But...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 22:51 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

What defence does a warlock have against a shoulder charge?

Stasis grenade, shotgun, heck even jumping works half the time.

In D1, we had a Melee that gave us an overshield. I could eat Titan shoulder charges all day, but only if I was aware of the Titan, and I timed the melee just right. Titans cried because they thought they should be the “melee class”, and Bungie nerfed us, then got rid of the ability altogether.

Then they gave us multiple projectile melees instead. Kekeke

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, December 07, 2020, 06:45 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I take your point (on a certain level, the counter to every ability is “shoot them” ;p) but I was thinking more specifically about the potential for various abilities to counter each other. My favourite class-based shooters are often built around a kind of rock/paper/scissors dynamic, and I’ve always wished Destiny would lean further in that direction. There are hints of it present, but I’d love to see more. There are abilities currently in the game which should have more direct interplay with each other, but don’t. The Hunter dodge, for example. When you dodge, your hitbox actually stays in place until the animation finishes, and then it snaps over to your new location. But until the end of the animation, your hitbox is just sitting in place where you began your dodge. What this means is that it doesn’t actually “dodge” anything. If a dawnblade’s super attack or ranged melee is homing in on you and you dodge to try to avoid it, the homing attack will just keep moving towards your now stationary hitbox. Even though the dodge does technically break the lock-on homing effect, it’s often pointless because your hitbox isn’t moving, so the homing attack just needs to continue on the path it was already heading to make contact with your hitbox. When this combines with other factors like splash damage, lag compensation, and the general squishiness of D2’s hit detection, it makes it extremely unlikely that your hunter dodge will ever effectively dodge anything. It should be the perfect counter to shoulder charges or homing attacks, but the chances of if actually working to dodge those attacks are extremely rare.

Going back to my warlock vs shoulder charge question, what if warlocks had a rift that slowed enemies who ran into it? Or what if they could do the opposite of that useless Phoenix dive and launch themselves trailer up into the air? Those are just a couple thoughts off the top of my head, but I’m sure you get the point.

I do want to quickly comment on stasis, since you mentioned it. I firmly believe that stasis is the worst gameplay element that Bungie has ever added to Destiny, and this topic of conversation is a great illustration of why I believe it is so awful. Stasis is the counter to EVERYTHING. It counters every single subclass ability, it shuts down every super, and the only viably consistent counter to stasis is... that’s right, more stasis. The warlock is the worst offender, as every single warlock stasis ability can freeze your opponents. Grenades, melee ability, rift, and super are all universal shutdown abilities that trump any other ability in the game. So rather than play into an interesting rock/paper/scissors dynamic, stasis is just a simple “win button”.

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 07:36 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think Stasis is fine and fun, but you’re not wrong. They added it with seemingly zero consideration for how it plays with and against the other subclasses in the game.

It feels like the other subclasses need total reworks now.

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, December 07, 2020, 07:52 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I think Stasis is fine and fun, but you’re not wrong. They added it with seemingly zero consideration for how it plays with and against the other subclasses in the game.

It feels like the other subclasses need total reworks now.

I think this goes back to the point I was making earlier. They created these subclasses which can be loads of fun when you’re obliterating hordes of trash mobs, but it’s so harmful to other areas of the game that 1 of 2 things is likely to happen; stasis stays roughly as it is, and the crucible is basically written off as the dumpster fire that it currently is, or stasis gets nerfed so hard that it destroys the power fantasy and ruins the subclass for players who currently enjoy it. Bungie has painted themselves into a completely avoidable corner here. That’s why I think Stasis should never even have made it as far as prototyping. The predicament it creates is completely predictable, even in theory.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:21 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think Stasis is fine and fun, but you’re not wrong. They added it with seemingly zero consideration for how it plays with and against the other subclasses in the game.

It feels like the other subclasses need total reworks now.


I think this goes back to the point I was making earlier. They created these subclasses which can be loads of fun when you’re obliterating hordes of trash mobs, but it’s so harmful to other areas of the game that 1 of 2 things is likely to happen; stasis stays roughly as it is, and the crucible is basically written off as the dumpster fire that it currently is, or stasis gets nerfed so hard that it destroys the power fantasy and ruins the subclass for players who currently enjoy it. Bungie has painted themselves into a completely avoidable corner here. That’s why I think Stasis should never even have made it as far as prototyping. The predicament it creates is completely predictable, even in theory.

I feel like a lot of it could be solved if you can't freeze supers. Or if you can, but you can't really do any damage with the super. Make it a completely support super. The fact that it's both makes it OP. Also, the fact that some stasis supers are basically melee versions makes the ranged ones trump the melee ones. Yes, I run a Titan, everyone knows it :D

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I completely agree. But...

by squidnh3, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:59 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I feel like a lot of it could be solved if you can't freeze supers. Or if you can, but you can't really do any damage with the super.

The freeze effect is already significantly reduced against enemies in their supers. I've been frozen a number of times in Golden Gun or Tether and was able to break out nearly instantly and continue to use my super.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:16 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I take your point (on a certain level, the counter to every ability is “shoot them” ;p) but I was thinking more specifically about the potential for various abilities to counter each other. My favourite class-based shooters are often built around a kind of rock/paper/scissors dynamic, and I’ve always wished Destiny would lean further in that direction. There are hints of it present, but I’d love to see more. There are abilities currently in the game which should have more direct interplay with each other, but don’t. The Hunter dodge, for example. When you dodge, your hitbox actually stays in place until the animation finishes, and then it snaps over to your new location. But until the end of the animation, your hitbox is just sitting in place where you began your dodge. What this means is that it doesn’t actually “dodge” anything. If a dawnblade’s super attack or ranged melee is homing in on you and you dodge to try to avoid it, the homing attack will just keep moving towards your now stationary hitbox. Even though the dodge does technically break the lock-on homing effect, it’s often pointless because your hitbox isn’t moving, so the homing attack just needs to continue on the path it was already heading to make contact with your hitbox. When this combines with other factors like splash damage, lag compensation, and the general squishiness of D2’s hit detection, it makes it extremely unlikely that your hunter dodge will ever effectively dodge anything. It should be the perfect counter to shoulder charges or homing attacks, but the chances of if actually working to dodge those attacks are extremely rare.

Going back to my warlock vs shoulder charge question, what if warlocks had a rift that slowed enemies who ran into it? Or what if they could do the opposite of that useless Phoenix dive and launch themselves trailer up into the air? Those are just a couple thoughts off the top of my head, but I’m sure you get the point.

So I don't like when people use shoulder charge as an example mainly because it, I think, is one of the few regular abilities that is very high risk for high reward. There is a reason it's a one shot. If there was an easy counter to it then it would never be used. I shouldn't even say "easy" as it should equal the difficulty of getting a shoulder charge off (or slightly less).

I do however understand why people use it as an example. It's an ability that doesn't feel good to die to because it feels unfair. That is mostly because the recipient doesn't understand the risk involved in managing to get the kill.

Should there be a rock paper scissors counter to it? Totally. But I think I already listed a couple. And they added even more this season with stasis. For those that don't know, anything that applies the slow affect to a player cancels should charge. It's incredibly annoying because it's basically an instant death to the shoulder charger due to the fact that there is a significant delay when coming out of a shoulder charge (high risk and all that).

So yeah, I didn't want to derail your argument, I agree with it. It just bothers me when people use shoulder charge as an example :D

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:23 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV
edited by cheapLEY, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:30

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

I changed my mind: if stasis is ruining the fun of shoulder charging Titans, it’s perfect.

Edit: That’s not really a dig at Titans. Dodge is a completely brain dead get out of jail free button most of the time. Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 08:39 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

Wow. I didn't think you a dick, but that was a complete dick statement. I know you are a better player than most of us here cheapLEY, but wow.

I keep wanting to respond to this with how I feel, but I'm going to just take some time now. I might voice my opinion later.

I changed my mind: if stasis is ruining the fun of shoulder charging Titans, it’s perfect.

Edit: That’s not really a dig at Titans. Dodge is a completely brain dead get out of jail free button most of the time. Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 09:08 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

That’s not what I meant. I’m not calling you an idiot, that was a general you. I am sorry. My language is harsh, and I understand how it’s read that way.

I mean that this is a game almost explicitly designed to make people feel better than they are. That includes me. I’m not anywhere near top tier at this game. I’ve never gone Flawless and I don’t really expect to.

My point is that this discussion is silly to begin with. Destiny is not a game that is well considered from a competitive perspective. I don’t think it’s supposed to be. It’s a game that is focused around the mid-tier, of not quite the lowest common denominator. The amount of tracking that nearly every ability has is very generous. Shoulder charge can turn what feels like 90 degrees to hit someone who should have been well clear. Dodge is basically an instant leave button to get around corners and behind cover. Celestial Fire can damn near cross map people and Handheld Supernova still feels cheap.

Mid-level Destiny doesn’t feel like play, counter play—it’s a bunch of monkeys running around taking turns hitting their own brand of instant wins at each other until one side has managed to do it more.

I completely agree. But...

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 18:04 (1207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I mean that this is a game almost explicitly designed to make people feel better than they are. That includes me. I’m not anywhere near top tier at this game. I’ve never gone Flawless and I don’t really expect to.

idk man, I've felt subpar in Destiny for it's entire 7 year run.

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, December 07, 2020, 09:34 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.


Wow. I didn't think you a dick, but that was a complete dick statement. I know you are a better player than most of us here cheapLEY, but wow.

I keep wanting to respond to this with how I feel, but I'm going to just take some time now. I might voice my opinion later.

I changed my mind: if stasis is ruining the fun of shoulder charging Titans, it’s perfect.

Edit: That’s not really a dig at Titans. Dodge is a completely brain dead get out of jail free button most of the time. Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

So first of all, I should say that I think there’s some “lost in translation” going on here. Cheapley is genuinely one of the nicest dudes I’ve played with. At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I certainly took his statement with the tone of a guy who is chatting amongst friends, and not as intentionally critical or dismissive. Could just be me, but I don’t get ruffled by the “brain dead” comments and stuff like that because I think those are the kind of mistakes that almost all Destiny players make from time to time. Heck, I do it way more than just about anyone (with the possible exception of Korny). This is a tangent, but I had a moment way back in Halo 2 when I was playing a 1-flag game where the flag is in the ruins of an old base, and there’s a window right in the front that you can jump through to land on the flag (was it called Boneyard?). My entire team was leaping in through that window and dying instantly, and sure enough I jumped in and was gunned down right away. One of the guys I was playing with said “why the hell did you do that? You just watched 3 of our teammates all jump in and die, so why the hell would you do it too?” I was struck by how obviously correct he was, and yet my instincts in the heat of the moment we’re screaming “GO GO GO”. I think of that often because all these years later, I still do it constantly, lol.

That said, to address your point; again, I do think there is some truth to what you’re saying. Shoulder charge involves getting right up close to the enemy, and as such there’s a certain amount of risk involved. Certainly more risk than many other abilities in D2. But to push back a little, I actually do agree with Cheapley’s point that none of the abilities in D2 are particularly high risk. Between the often claustrophobic maps and the levels of mobility our guardians have and the general chaos that often goes on in a crucible match, closing the gap and getting up close to the enemy is often quite doable. I mean, look at this:

Granted, I’m using an exotic that instantly refills my melee charge, but still... thats a lot of kills XD

Again, to your point, there are certain maps where that kind of play style is far less likely to work, but not many IMO.

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 09:54 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

That video perfectly makes my point. What’s the risk? You die? And the reward was like ten quick kills in a row. How is that anything but low-risk, high-reward? In a game that truly cared about competitive fairness, that would not be possible. And sure, not everyone could have pulled that off, but the game is almost explicitly designed to allow even low level players to have moments exactly like that. That’s what Supers are!

And, again, I’m not really saying the game shouldn’t be doing that. I could go play Counter Strike or something if I washed some ultra competitive game. Players who want Destiny to be like that are just pissing in the wind at this point.

But, even for everyone having crazy abilities, Stasis leans even further in that direction, to the point that the original subclasses feel useless by comparison.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 10:17 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

So first of all, I should say that I think there’s some “lost in translation” going on here. Cheapley is genuinely one of the nicest dudes I’ve played with. At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I certainly took his statement with the tone of a guy who is chatting amongst friends, and not as intentionally critical or dismissive. Could just be me, but I don’t get ruffled by the “brain dead” comments and stuff like that because I think those are the kind of mistakes that almost all Destiny players make from time to time. Heck, I do it way more than just about anyone (with the possible exception of Korny). This is a tangent, but I had a moment way back in Halo 2 when I was playing a 1-flag game where the flag is in the ruins of an old base, and there’s a window right in the front that you can jump through to land on the flag (was it called Boneyard?). My entire team was leaping in through that window and dying instantly, and sure enough I jumped in and was gunned down right away. One of the guys I was playing with said “why the hell did you do that? You just watched 3 of our teammates all jump in and die, so why the hell would you do it too?” I was struck by how obviously correct he was, and yet my instincts in the heat of the moment we’re screaming “GO GO GO”. I think of that often because all these years later, I still do it constantly, lol.

His reply has explained it. But I do want to point out that we were talking about technical aspects and strategy, not in the heat moments or chatting with friends. For him to reply to my experiences of the difficulty and strategy of using shoulder charge with a statement that quite frankly states to me that I shouldn't feel that way because shoulder charge shouldn't take any skill to use is both dismissive of my experience as well as very elitist. That's how I took it in context. I now know he didn't mean it that way, but this is just more of a warning when talking about things :)

That said, to address your point; again, I do think there is some truth to what you’re saying. Shoulder charge involves getting right up close to the enemy, and as such there’s a certain amount of risk involved. Certainly more risk than many other abilities in D2.

I mean, we are using high risk in the context of all other regular abilities. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is one of if not the highest risk ability to use because you can't do anything but run in roughly a straight line.

Maybe I should just be saying "highest" risk?

But to push back a little, I actually do agree with Cheapley’s point that none of the abilities in D2 are particularly high risk. Between the often claustrophobic maps and the levels of mobility our guardians have and the general chaos that often goes on in a crucible match, closing the gap and getting up close to the enemy is often quite doable. I mean, look at this:

Granted, I’m using an exotic that instantly refills my melee charge, but still... thats a lot of kills XD

I guess I will push back and say that only one of those enemies was even looking at you let alone doing anything. In those cases, of course there wasn't any risk. There wasn't really any risk in doing anything to the enemies.

I mean, again to counter argue the point that Shoulder charge take a very base level of awareness. That goes for the enemy as well. It takes at least a base level of awareness from them as well.

Again, to your point, there are certain maps where that kind of play style is far less likely to work, but not many IMO.

And I do agree there are much better situations for shoulder charging. Especially in close quarter maps. But again I would say that those are also the maps that people are wrecking with shotguns :)

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 10:29 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I guess I will push back and say that only one of those enemies was even looking at you let alone doing anything. In those cases, of course there wasn't any risk. There wasn't really any risk in doing anything to the enemies.

I think that’s my point. When else would you use shoulder charge? Rushing someone who is staring at you with a gun ready isn’t the smartest play in the world—that it occasionally works because they happen to have a gun that can’t kill you fast enough doesn’t make it a good strategy.

I mean, again to counter argue the point that Shoulder charge take a very base level of awareness. That goes for the enemy as well. It takes at least a base level of awareness from them as well.

That’s why I called it brain dead (which may be overly harsh). It’s an ambush ability. It only works when you can surprise someone with it. If they have enough time to react, they can just kill you before you get to them. That’s not necessarily high-risk, it’s just using it an inappropriate times. Even knowing that, I still usually take that gamble, in the hopes that the enemy is completely clueless and the shoulder charge might still work. I’m not sure what it means that often enough, the shoulder charge does still work.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 11:05 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I guess I will push back and say that only one of those enemies was even looking at you let alone doing anything. In those cases, of course there wasn't any risk. There wasn't really any risk in doing anything to the enemies.


I think that’s my point. When else would you use shoulder charge? Rushing someone who is staring at you with a gun ready isn’t the smartest play in the world—that it occasionally works because they happen to have a gun that can’t kill you fast enough doesn’t make it a good strategy.

This explains why you think it's not high risk. Every ability is no risk if the enemy doesn't know you are there. But that doesn't matter because what makes it high risk it was it deprives from you when you decide to use it: mobility, the use of your gun or any abilities (minus your super). That makes it high risk. How you use it can definitely make it less of a risk, but that doesn't mean the ability is less of a risk than say a throwing knife just because you decide to use it in the middle of a firefight.

I mean, again to counter argue the point that Shoulder charge take a very base level of awareness. That goes for the enemy as well. It takes at least a base level of awareness from them as well.


That’s why I called it brain dead (which may be overly harsh). It’s an ambush ability. It only works when you can surprise someone with it. If they have enough time to react, they can just kill you before you get to them. That’s not necessarily high-risk, it’s just using it an inappropriate times.

Where "inappropriate times" is when they see you or they don't have time to kill you before you get to them. That's my whole argument, it's why it's a high risk. It either one hits or you do absolutely nothing to them and you get wasted.

I want to say that it being an ambush ability, as you put it, doesn't keep it from being a high risk ability.

Even knowing that, I still usually take that gamble, in the hopes that the enemy is completely clueless and the shoulder charge might still work. I’m not sure what it means that often enough, the shoulder charge does still work.

I think I know what you are saying, but I just don't understand why it makes it less of a high risk ability.

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 11:26 (1208 days ago) @ MacAddictXIV

I think we just fundamentally look at it differently. It’s not high risk because if there’s a good chance they’re going to kill you before you close the gap, you shouldn’t use it. It’s a tactically unsound decision. You should disengage and reposition, or use a different ability or weapon.

It’s like saying a sniper is high risk in a ten foot long hallway because the zoom is too long. Sure, in that situation it’s high risk, but it’s also just the wrong time to use a sniper rifle. That doesn’t really make snipers high risk, it just means it’s being used inappropriately.

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Could you give an example of high-risk in another game?

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, December 07, 2020, 11:52 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Because I'm pretty sure I can bend the crap out of your argument on top of basically anything.

I agree with Mac's point-of-view. Shoulder charge foregoes usage of weapons and some maneuverability in exchange of the heavy hit, which might miss if the enemy jukes you or you screw up your aim, after which you're completely vulnerable for a short time. That's some pretty high risk, IMO.

Take the Hunter's heavy knife, for instance. It's also a heavy hit, much more reliant on aim and you're locked into the animation until it's over, but you can move as freely as anyone while it goes, so while it's not risk-free, it's clearly lower-risk than shoulder charge, with about the same high-reward.

I completely agree. But...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 12:21 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I think we just fundamentally look at it differently. It’s not high risk because if there’s a good chance they’re going to kill you before you close the gap, you shouldn’t use it. It’s a tactically unsound decision. You should disengage and reposition, or use a different ability or weapon.

It’s like saying a sniper is high risk in a ten foot long hallway because the zoom is too long. Sure, in that situation it’s high risk, but it’s also just the wrong time to use a sniper rifle. That doesn’t really make snipers high risk, it just means it’s being used inappropriately.

It's high risk because you are disabled, as a fighter, while (and for a short time after) using it. You can do everything right; pick an oblivious target, hit them from an unexpected angle, nail your shoulder charge and kill them... and still die because their teammate, who wasn't on your radar when you started the charge, comes around the corner and shoots you before you get control of your character back. Almost no other ability in the game has as long a 'disabled until fully complete' cooldown. I can throw a knife at someone, and be shooting a gun a fraction of a second later. (And yes, killing someone with a knife, then spinning and sidearm-ing their buddy you didn't notice immediately after, is a REALLY good feeling. I'm pretty sure that's the 'the game makes you feel better than you are' feeling you were talking about.)

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 12:30 (1208 days ago) @ Claude Errera

By that measure Dodge is high risk. Blink is high risk. And those don’t end with a kill a the end of them. How much time does it take to cast a rift or a wall?

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 12:35 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

By that measure Dodge is high risk. Blink is high risk. And those don’t end with a kill a the end of them. How much time does it take to cast a rift or a wall?

I would call a rift high risk if you are in threat of dying, yes. Not as high because you are running across the map, you are stationary, shorting time frame, and presumably not in a dangerous location. I wouldn't call blink or dodge high risk because they actively give you an advantage while you are doing the action.

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I completely agree. But...

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Monday, December 07, 2020, 13:04 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Rift and Barrier would be high-risk if their intended use was exclusively within proximity to enemies, which offensive abilities and Dodge are. Dodge has some risk, yes, if you fail to dodge behind something.

I completely agree. But...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 13:21 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

By that measure Dodge is high risk. Blink is high risk. And those don’t end with a kill a the end of them. How much time does it take to cast a rift or a wall?

Wait, what? How is Dodge high-risk, by that measure? Are you disabled for a second or two after your dodge finishes? (Spoiler alert - you're not. You can fire IMMEDIATELY after dodging. Try doing that after a shoulder charge.)

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I completely agree. But...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 15:24 (1208 days ago) @ Claude Errera
edited by cheapLEY, Monday, December 07, 2020, 15:46

Wait, what? How is Dodge high-risk, by that measure? Are you disabled for a second or two after your dodge finishes? (Spoiler alert - you're not. You can fire IMMEDIATELY after dodging. Try doing that after a shoulder charge.)

So, I did the science.

I took videos of me doing a shoulder charge then firing a shotgun as soon as I was able. I took a video that contained a few of these tests. I did the same thing with a Hunter Dodge.

From the moment the shoulder charge starts to the moment I was able to fire the gun was 32 frames. That's the best I managed--most of them were 41-43 frames.

With the Hunter Dodge, every single one I did was 41-42 frames.

Worst case scenario, they're basically exactly equal, and in the best case, the Shoulder Charge was actually faster.

I transferred the exact same shotgun between characters, I didn't use any dexterity mods on either character, etc., etc. It was as fair as I could make it.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period.

EDIT: Here's the proof, just in case.

This is in Lightworks. The blue number in the lower left is the time stamp, but the number after the decimal is actually the frame number, so it rolls over the next second at 30.

Here's the Titan stuff. The second picture is the picture I counted as frame one, the first one just shows the frame just before so you can see what I judged as the "start" of the ability. The final image is the first frame in which I could see muzzle flash from the shotgun.

[image] [image] [image]

Now here's the Hunter:

[image] [image] [image]

I completely agree. But...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 16:12 (1207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Definitely looks like you did the science. It doesn't match my perception of playing these characters for 7 years (well, 6 for the Hunter)... but I can't argue with the science.

Oh, but...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 16:15 (1207 days ago) @ Claude Errera

The biggest difference between the use of a shoulder charge and the use of a dodge is where you end up at the end.

Shoulder Charge: in enemy territory (presumably, unless you were picking off the weak gazelle)

Dodge: in friendly territory (you're getting shot, you dodge behind cover)

So even if they ARE disabled for the same amount of time (and they sure look like they are, from your experiments), one has you disabled in the midst of your enemies, the other has you disabled behind a rock or wall. Not exactly the same.

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Oh, but...

by cheapLEY @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 16:47 (1207 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Maybe, but I’d argue that comes back to the whole awareness part of ability use. Don’t try to shoulder charge into a group of enemies, especially without back up. But I also use dodge aggressively in groups of enemies, too, just to reposition, not necessarily to escape. So it’s not always an escape ability.

I don’t disagree that Dodge is probably a “safer” ability, as it can be an escape ability. Shoulder charge may indeed be the most “high-risk” ability, but I think calling it high-risk is an overstatement.

FWIW, this is mostly theoretical to me, and centered around playing something like Control, not Trials. Control is chaotic enough that basically nothing is high-risk—there’s always someone to ambush, and a single death from a missed ability isn’t a huge cost anyway. This conversation changed entirely when centered around top tier play, but I couldn’t weigh in on that discussion.

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Oh, but...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, December 07, 2020, 16:56 (1207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Maybe, but I’d argue that comes back to the whole awareness part of ability use. Don’t try to shoulder charge into a group of enemies, especially without back up. But I also use dodge aggressively in groups of enemies, too, just to reposition, not necessarily to escape. So it’s not always an escape ability.

I don’t disagree that Dodge is probably a “safer” ability, as it can be an escape ability. Shoulder charge may indeed be the most “high-risk” ability, but I think calling it high-risk is an overstatement.

FWIW, this is mostly theoretical to me, and centered around playing something like Control, not Trials. Control is chaotic enough that basically nothing is high-risk—there’s always someone to ambush, and a single death from a missed ability isn’t a huge cost anyway. This conversation changed entirely when centered around top tier play, but I couldn’t weigh in on that discussion.

I was going to say, I don’t think I’ve ever used dodge to move behind cover, lol.

On the flip side, I constantly use shoulder charge for exactly that (quick mid-air turn and dash through a doorway to escape an enemy firing lane).

Oh, but...

by EffortlessFury @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 18:10 (1207 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Something to consider is that the ability has very little use outside of the ambush scenario. Having the ability "equipped" is high-risk in and of itself because it limits the overall tactical usefulness of that ability.

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I completely agree. But...

by squidnh3, Monday, December 07, 2020, 09:06 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.

This is always an interesting conversation to have, but I feel like it's worth acknowledging that in actuality, there's still a massive gap between low level and high level play in Destiny. I've always felt like I'm somewhere in the middle of possible skill level, as I play games in Trials where we instantly 5-0 teams, and then we run into teams that instantly 5-0 us.

So yeah, when two teams of relatively equal skill sometimes it feels like just random crap is happening, but at the end of the day I know there's something (what it was, maybe I don't know) that I could have done better to win, because I've played players that did it.

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I completely agree. But...

by CruelLEGACEY @, Toronto, Monday, December 07, 2020, 10:34 (1208 days ago) @ squidnh3

Destiny is a chaotic shitshow that’s based around making players feel cool when they do stuff, is not a game built around tightly designed ability interaction. It’s a game filled with instant win buttons, and we should stop pretending otherwise, even if it had achieved some semblance of “balance.” Each class having an equal distribution of instant win abilities isn’t the same thing as it being well considered or well designed for competitive play. I’m not even arguing that should be the goal. But damn near no ability in the game is high-risk, high-reward. At best they’re medium-risk, high-reward, and most are low-risk, high-reward.


This is always an interesting conversation to have, but I feel like it's worth acknowledging that in actuality, there's still a massive gap between low level and high level play in Destiny. I've always felt like I'm somewhere in the middle of possible skill level, as I play games in Trials where we instantly 5-0 teams, and then we run into teams that instantly 5-0 us.

So yeah, when two teams of relatively equal skill sometimes it feels like just random crap is happening, but at the end of the day I know there's something (what it was, maybe I don't know) that I could have done better to win, because I've played players that did it.

The comparison I always come back to is Mario Kart. MK does several things to make races between players of vaguely similar skill levels a bit closer than a purely skill-based competition would be. There’s the lopsided power up system (better power ups given to drivers that are further behind), and aggressive rubber banding for the AI drivers. But there is a point when the skill gap between players gets wide enough that these mechanics actually start to backfire against the weaker player. A rookie driver might not find the steady stream of speed-boosting power ups all that helpful, as they may lack the skills to properly control their kart while moving faster. They might boost off a ledge or into a wall, or into one of the countless bananas being left behind by the drivers up front. Similarly, rubber-banding AI drivers will be pulled towards the human driver up front, meaning they’ll pull further and further ahead of the rookie driver in the rear.

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

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I completely agree. But...

by squidnh3, Monday, December 07, 2020, 14:17 (1208 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.

Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.

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I completely agree. But...

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 07:07 (1207 days ago) @ squidnh3

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.


Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.

I'm more frightened of trials than ever. You make it sound nightmarish!

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I completely agree. But...

by Speedracer513 @, Dallas, Texas, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 07:38 (1207 days ago) @ Kermit

I think Destiny is a lot like that. All these supers and 1-hit abilities serve to give players of all levels opportunities to do something that makes them feel awesome, but when the skill gap between teams hits a certain point, all those supers and abilities snowball in favour of the stronger team, and lead to an absolute blowout.


Well, most of the time Supers don't even come into play in a 5-0 Trials match. I think we can both agree that getting sniped in the face no matter where you try to attack from, or getting velociraptor rushed (not from the front, but from the sides) by players that can string together movement sequences that seem impossible are the two most common hallmarks of high level players.


I'm more frightened of trials than ever. You make it sound nightmarish!

It is indeed still much worse for the average player than it ever was in D1. :-(

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I completely agree. But...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 10:13 (1207 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

The comparison I always come back to is Mario Kart. MK does several things to make races between players of vaguely similar skill levels a bit closer than a purely skill-based competition would be. There’s the lopsided power up system (better power ups given to drivers that are further behind), and aggressive rubber banding for the AI drivers. But there is a point when the skill gap between players gets wide enough that these mechanics actually start to backfire against the weaker player. A rookie driver might not find the steady stream of speed-boosting power ups all that helpful, as they may lack the skills to properly control their kart while moving faster. They might boost off a ledge or into a wall, or into one of the countless bananas being left behind by the drivers up front. Similarly, rubber-banding AI drivers will be pulled towards the human driver up front, meaning they’ll pull further and further ahead of the rookie driver in the rear.

This is why the people farther behind get things like red and blue shells, which home in on enemies and take little skill to target. And then there's the lighting bolt…

I completely agree. But...

by Claude Errera @, Monday, December 07, 2020, 11:59 (1208 days ago) @ cheapLEY

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.

See, it's hyperbole like this that keeps me out of these discussions.

I was a Titan main (and by 'main' I mean that 90+% of ALL gameplay I participated in, I was a Titan) for the first year of Destiny 1. I'm more spread out now - but I still play my Titan a lot.

And I'm TERRIBLE at shoulder charge. I've tried - it's not that I haven't tried. I'm just not good at it. I don't know of any sites that keep track of stuff like shoulder charge kills... but I'd bet that in D2 Crucible, I've got fewer than 25 (out of nearly 100,000 crucible kills). Again - it's not because I don't WANT to use it. It's not because I don't TRY to use it. It's because for me, it almost never works. I overshoot, I undershoot. I actually HIT my target but don't do enough damage. The ways I fail are far more numerous than the ways I succeed.

I'm not the BEST crucible player out there, but I'm far from the worst - and to have someone tell me that it's a brain-dead ability, providing free kills unless I'm an idiot... well, that just makes me feel bad.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period. It is NOT a brain-dead ability. It is NOT free kills. I am living proof of that.

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I completely agree. But...

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Monday, December 07, 2020, 12:39 (1208 days ago) @ Claude Errera

What?

Shoulder charge is a mostly brain dead ability, assuming even a base level of awareness and competence. The only real risk to it is that the person you’re charging might have a shotgun. That’s it. Unless you’re an idiot and try to charge from way too far away. It’s not that difficult to charge unassuming players from unexpected angles and get basically free kills.


See, it's hyperbole like this that keeps me out of these discussions.

I was a Titan main (and by 'main' I mean that 90+% of ALL gameplay I participated in, I was a Titan) for the first year of Destiny 1. I'm more spread out now - but I still play my Titan a lot.

And I'm TERRIBLE at shoulder charge. I've tried - it's not that I haven't tried. I'm just not good at it. I don't know of any sites that keep track of stuff like shoulder charge kills... but I'd bet that in D2 Crucible, I've got fewer than 25 (out of nearly 100,000 crucible kills). Again - it's not because I don't WANT to use it. It's not because I don't TRY to use it. It's because for me, it almost never works. I overshoot, I undershoot. I actually HIT my target but don't do enough damage. The ways I fail are far more numerous than the ways I succeed.

I'm not the BEST crucible player out there, but I'm far from the worst - and to have someone tell me that it's a brain-dead ability, providing free kills unless I'm an idiot... well, that just makes me feel bad.

You're wrong. Not partially wrong, not conditionally wrong, just wrong. Period. It is NOT a brain-dead ability. It is NOT free kills. I am living proof of that.

Basically exactly how I felt. Except I get more kills with shoulder charge :D

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I completely agree. But...

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 10:04 (1207 days ago) @ CruelLEGACEY

I do want to quickly comment on stasis, since you mentioned it. I firmly believe that stasis is the worst gameplay element that Bungie has ever added to Destiny, and this topic of conversation is a great illustration of why I believe it is so awful. Stasis is the counter to EVERYTHING. It counters every single subclass ability, it shuts down every super, and the only viably consistent counter to stasis is... that’s right, more stasis. The warlock is the worst offender, as every single warlock stasis ability can freeze your opponents. Grenades, melee ability, rift, and super are all universal shutdown abilities that trump any other ability in the game. So rather than play into an interesting rock/paper/scissors dynamic, stasis is just a simple “win button”.

Is Bungie making a point about the dark side being so seductive? :-p At least in Bioshock harvesting was short term gain while saving led to the greatest benefit in the long term.

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I completely agree. But...

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Tuesday, December 08, 2020, 10:41 (1207 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I do want to quickly comment on stasis, since you mentioned it. I firmly believe that stasis is the worst gameplay element that Bungie has ever added to Destiny, and this topic of conversation is a great illustration of why I believe it is so awful. Stasis is the counter to EVERYTHING. It counters every single subclass ability, it shuts down every super, and the only viably consistent counter to stasis is... that’s right, more stasis. The warlock is the worst offender, as every single warlock stasis ability can freeze your opponents. Grenades, melee ability, rift, and super are all universal shutdown abilities that trump any other ability in the game. So rather than play into an interesting rock/paper/scissors dynamic, stasis is just a simple “win button”.


Is Bungie making a point about the dark side being so seductive? :-p At least in Bioshock harvesting was short term gain while saving led to the greatest benefit in the long term.

Kind of, actually. As powerful as Stasis abilities are (and yes, they're win buttons in many cases), they have a much longer cooldown than any other subclass.

That said, those longer cooldowns are negated by how successful your guardian is at getting kills, which feeds your Super frequency, and across the board, those are far more successful than any other subclass Supers.

It's a tangled web they weave.

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Mask of Bakris is for Offense

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 12:38 (1209 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It was the main exotic I was excited to get.

I ran that Lost Sector over 20 times to get it. Only to find out two reasons it blows.

First is that it has a 10 second cool down before your dodge even starts to recharge. So my max mobility build has a 21 second dodge and instead of an 11 second.

...

What a dumb load of horseshit.

An observation I've made. I should note, I have yet to get hands on time with the Mask of Bakris Exotic.

The Mask of Bakris is for offense, and in fact such seems true for all Class abilities under Stasis, be they with an additional exotic or not. With the added ability to "do something" at the thing trying to get you, the class ability has gone from a pure defensive measure to offensive as well. It also could be argued that exotics involving Stasis are more selfish in play style, but there is too few to make that solid distinction yet.

Anywho, the Mask of Bakris is for offense and I say this because of what is supposed to happen during that 10 second cool down. During that time, any Arc Damage based weapon gets a damage boost. Why Arc? No flippen' idea. But, I seem to recall you have a pretty nice sidearm you hang on to that I think hasn't been sunset yet.

It's a completely new hunter playstyle, I know. Playing a Hunter generally means that if someone sneezes you dodge just in case, but that's not something you can do with this exotic. An' THANK FLIPP'N GOODNESS! Last thing ANYONE needs to see in PvP are Overload Captains with slightly better AI. ;D

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Mask of Bakris is for Offense

by cheapLEY @, Sunday, December 06, 2020, 13:05 (1209 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

That’s a good point, and I intend to experiment with it more. I just don’t like playing the Revenant subclass in Crucible.

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I didn't see this linked for this discussion, so here it is

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Thursday, December 10, 2020, 13:23 (1205 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I don't have it yet, but this is my next grinding goal. This season has some really sweet combos between exotics and mods that make Crucible even more fun than I found it last season.

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