GatorCheaters makes me curious (Destiny)

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:06 (248 days ago)

Mostly, I wonder how anything that offers this kind of augmentation is undetectable on the backend. Probably this is because I don't understand how aimbots actually work... but really, the only time I think about it at all is when stuff like this comes up.

I guess I always assumed that there had to be unauthorized access to underlying game data (which SHOULD be detectable, shouldn't it?)... but maybe there's another way that an aimbot can make you not miss?

I dunno.

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:23 (248 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Mostly, I wonder how anything that offers this kind of augmentation is undetectable on the backend. Probably this is because I don't understand how aimbots actually work... but really, the only time I think about it at all is when stuff like this comes up.

I think Bungie and Riot want to know this too. Item 3 includes the software so they can see how the hack circumvented the anti-cheat stuff in the game.


I guess I always assumed that there had to be unauthorized access to underlying game data (which SHOULD be detectable, shouldn't it?)... but maybe there's another way that an aimbot can make you not miss?

I dunno.

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"

Gotta get dat sweet loot bro.

GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Claude Errera @, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:49 (248 days ago) @ ManKitten

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"


Gotta get dat sweet loot bro.

I mean, sure, but...

why, really, if your blue handcannon never misses?

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:56 (248 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"


Gotta get dat sweet loot bro.


I mean, sure, but...

why, really, if your blue handcannon never misses?

Because it can't Go TO MaX POwEr LEveL

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by squidnh3, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:44 (248 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Mostly, I wonder how anything that offers this kind of augmentation is undetectable on the backend. Probably this is because I don't understand how aimbots actually work... but really, the only time I think about it at all is when stuff like this comes up.

I guess I always assumed that there had to be unauthorized access to underlying game data (which SHOULD be detectable, shouldn't it?)... but maybe there's another way that an aimbot can make you not miss?

I dunno.

My completely unresearched guess would be that the aimbot uses the 2D visual output of the game, some sort of machine learning algorithm to identify enemies, and a mouse input simulation routine to move the cursor directly to the enemy location. The only way to detect this would be to screen for inhuman movement accelerations or hit percentages.

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 19:56 (248 days ago) @ squidnh3

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?

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^ this

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 06:41 (248 days ago) @ Vortech

- No text -

GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:36 (247 days ago) @ Vortech

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?

Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 12:56 (247 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?


Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?

This was the argument that folks were making when they were unscrambling satellite TV channels. Technically, the data is always being sent to you, even if you don't pay for the extra channels. So the argument was "Hey, you're beaming these channels into my house, so we are just decrypting it ourselves! It's going into our homes anyway, so we have a right to unscramble it without paying".

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 13:24 (247 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?


Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?

I think the general idea behind the lawsuit is: GatorCheats is profiting off of a product that directly effects the quality of gameplay for others that could effect their experience negatively enough that they may stop playing and stop purchasing content from Bungie and/or Riot.

GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Claude Errera @, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 15:27 (247 days ago) @ ManKitten

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?


Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?


I think the general idea behind the lawsuit is: GatorCheats is profiting off of a product that directly effects the quality of gameplay for others that could effect their experience negatively enough that they may stop playing and stop purchasing content from Bungie and/or Riot.

Well, sure... but shouldn't it be Bungie/Riot's responsibility not to provide content that allows this sort of behavior?

To be clear - I'm playing devil's advocate here; I don't think people should cheat, and I don't enjoy being cheated on. I'm just surprised by this particular idea that the cheaters aren't doing something nefarious like stealing data that wasn't supposed to come to them - they're simply utilizing the stream the server is sending in a way that the sender hadn't intended. (Or maybe they're not. I guess all of this is hypothetical, and based on the assumption that Vortech is right.)

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 18:05 (247 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Well, sure... but shouldn't it be Bungie/Riot's responsibility not to provide content that allows this sort of behavior?

Yeah… but look at Blizzard and the legal fights they have won against folks distributing cheating programs. I think precedent is on their side.

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 18:48 (247 days ago) @ Claude Errera


Well, sure... but shouldn't it be Bungie/Riot's responsibility not to provide content that allows this sort of behavior?

I disagree with that sentiment. To personalize it, in my day to day job, I do my best to make sure people dont rip off our IP's but at the end of the day, no matter what we do, if they want it bad enough they will get it. They aren't providing data that "allows" it, it was an unforeseen circumstance. They took precautions against it...but cheaters wanted it bad enough they found a way around it.

One of the things I remember from the Halo 3 theater mode and making recordings was that they aren't actually recording the video of the games, but recording the inputs from all players. Then during replay, the data would reenact those inputs to make the viewable video. I can't image online gaming is much different these days. So if the servers are just sending data points of locations, one could probably create software that highlights those data points as visual cues on their screen. And we know in Destiny and other games, characters have different value hit boxes and weapons have different levels of "auto aim". Just turn that aim slider up and point it at the strongest hit box...at the area the data points say...badaboom.

I say all this with total ignorance about game design or really anything about this topic. But, as a dumb dumb...that's how I would do it.

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Vortech @, A Fourth Wheel, Wednesday, January 13, 2021, 21:01 (247 days ago) @ Claude Errera

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?


Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?

Yeah, that’s why I read the complaint. The cause of action wasn’t clear to me. It seems like they’re going for some tortious interference of business relationships type of claim. Also, it’s entirely possible that you did agree to such a thing, did you read the terms of service that came with the game? I didn’t. ????

GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Claude Errera @, Thursday, January 14, 2021, 07:57 (246 days ago) @ Vortech

Based on the complaint it sounds like it must be looking at the data transmitted to the player by the server. It talks about revealing player locations and providing information other players don’t have access to. Whether they’re reading it in transit or in a local casche isn’t clear, but I would assume local storage would be easier?


Okay, this might be an unpopular question... but if that's really what's happening, why the lawsuit? The server is sending information - I don't remember signing an agreement to ignore content transmitted TO ME by the game, just because they ask me nicely.

Am I wrong?


Yeah, that’s why I read the complaint. The cause of action wasn’t clear to me. It seems like they’re going for some tortious interference of business relationships type of claim. Also, it’s entirely possible that you did agree to such a thing, did you read the terms of service that came with the game? I didn’t. ????

Nope, I didn't either. You're right, I might have agreed to such a thing. ;) (I would actually have no problem agreeing to such a thing, in fact.)

And I really dislike cheating - I remember being super-annoyed during Halo LANs when folks would blast ghosts on top of Sidewinder, then drive them across the map (where nobody could shoot at them) and drop into my base from above the second floor; sure, I could do the same, but clearly that wasn't intended behavior, and I shouldn't have to guard against it. I'm just wondering if this sort of behavior rises above annoyance, to the level of a lawsuit. (I mean, obviously it does, because there is one...)

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 09:55 (248 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"

Not when there's LOOT TO BE GAINED

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GatorCheaters makes me curious

by Morpheus @, High Charity, Tuesday, January 12, 2021, 14:55 (248 days ago) @ Claude Errera

I'm also unclear how cheating is satisfying for more than a few games. At some stage, wouldn't you just say "what's the point?"

For people like these, three reasons come to mind:

A: They're tired of running into cheaters themselves
B: They can't get it up (whether that's in-game or in reality, I'll let you decide)
C: Something something something Dark Side(curiosity)

But the end result is all the same: power is addicting. Never missing a shot, never losing a game, sprees galore, near constant quest completion, etc. etc. I don't know if these people do it knowing they're going to get caught, or if they believe that nothing will happen, but it's pretty corrupting.

I'll be the first to admit I've downloaded some campaign trainers for some of my PC games. Why? An immature misguided sense of revenge! You would be disturbed at how much I enjoyed walking out into Sniper Alley in Outskirts, as a dozen Jackal snipers headshotted me for naught while I just stood there laughing like Gill in Street Fighter. Some people just enjoy the feeling and move on. Some can't live without it.

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