Avatar

So, why does Shoulder Charge exist? (Criticism)

by CyberKN ⌂ @, Oh no, Destiny 2 seems complicated, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 10:31 (18 days ago)

Honest question.

Because based on this week's THAB detailing upcoming sandbox changes, I don't think Bungie knows either.

Not only is SC getting a significant damage nerf, they're upping the time it takes to recharge, so you'll have less access to it.

And... just... WHY?

Why would I ever put myself at risk to use this suicidal ability, if not to ensure that whatever I hit with it is no longer standing, post-impact?

"In our experience, they’re still powerful in PvP in combination with short-range weapons"

You know what else is powerful in PvP in combination with a short-range weapon? A regular, unpowered melee strike!

I hate that crucible exists so much. I hate that Bungie has to do this weird dance where they take abilites that are fun in PvE and nerf them into the ground, trying to maintain the illusion that Destiny could ever have a "level-playing field".

Avatar

Amen!

by MacAddictXIV @, Seattle WA, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 10:51 (18 days ago) @ CyberKN

- No text -

Avatar

So, why does Shoulder Charge exist?

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 11:00 (18 days ago) @ CyberKN

Seems like next time they should try to create and balance abilities in PvP FIRST, then build the campaign around the result. Balance seems to be more of a problem in PvP in that it more impacts other people. If an ability is overpowered in PvE, it doesn’t really affect anybody other than LFGers who are trying to join as a class without a busted ability.

Avatar

So, why does Shoulder Charge exist?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 15:02 (17 days ago) @ Cody Miller

This update literally shows how they’re balancing separately. Seems like it’s a non-issue.

Avatar

Overall Changes Thoughts

by squidnh3, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 15:16 (17 days ago) @ CyberKN

It all seems fairly well thought out, but boy that's a lot of changes to something that is already mostly very fun.

Avatar

Overall Changes Thoughts

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 15:51 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

It all seems fairly well thought out, but boy that's a lot of changes to something that is already mostly very fun.

My only worry is how this is going to affect my armor stats and how much it’s going to take to get appropriate sets if it really fucks something up.

Avatar

Overall Changes Thoughts

by squidnh3, Friday, November 19, 2021, 06:20 (17 days ago) @ cheapLEY

My only worry is how this is going to affect my armor stats and how much it’s going to take to get appropriate sets if it really fucks something up.

Yeah, there's an additional quote on Reddit from a Bungie employee about how they want us to lean more in to specific builds to help us regen abilities faster. To that I say, sounds interesting, except that creating builds in-game right now is like doing a slide puzzle (or worse) every time you want to change something.

Also, won't this exacerbate the gulf between the have and have-nots? If I'm getting my grenade back instantly due to a series of complex interactions between mods, and another player has to wait 2 minutes every time to throw a grenade, that sounds like a frustration point to me.

Avatar

I hate managing my build 😰

by kidtsunami @, Atlanta, GA, Friday, November 19, 2021, 06:25 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

My only worry is how this is going to affect my armor stats and how much it’s going to take to get appropriate sets if it really fucks something up.


Yeah, there's an additional quote on Reddit from a Bungie employee about how they want us to lean more in to specific builds to help us regen abilities faster. To that I say, sounds interesting, except that creating builds in-game right now is like doing a slide puzzle (or worse) every time you want to change something.

Also, won't this exacerbate the gulf between the have and have-nots? If I'm getting my grenade back instantly due to a series of complex interactions between mods, and another player has to wait 2 minutes every time to throw a grenade, that sounds like a frustration point to me.

Not because I dislike carefully crafting my build. I just have no damn way of keeping up with spec'ing my build for the activity in question:

  • is it Fallen, Vex, Cabal, Taken, the Scorn?
  • what modifiers are there? any champions?
  • Is there a bounty for using fusion rifles? Ok I'll get that, but if I do that

a 100 mod swaps, a few dips back into the vault, and oops that was the time I had to play that night.

They've got a plane's instrument panel level of build tweaking to do and it is getting tedious.

I hate managing my play

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, November 19, 2021, 11:17 (16 days ago) @ kidtsunami

My only worry is how this is going to affect my armor stats and how much it’s going to take to get appropriate sets if it really fucks something up.


Yeah, there's an additional quote on Reddit from a Bungie employee about how they want us to lean more in to specific builds to help us regen abilities faster. To that I say, sounds interesting, except that creating builds in-game right now is like doing a slide puzzle (or worse) every time you want to change something.

Also, won't this exacerbate the gulf between the have and have-nots? If I'm getting my grenade back instantly due to a series of complex interactions between mods, and another player has to wait 2 minutes every time to throw a grenade, that sounds like a frustration point to me.


Not because I dislike carefully crafting my build. I just have no damn way of keeping up with spec'ing my build for the activity in question:

  • is it Fallen, Vex, Cabal, Taken, the Scorn?
  • what modifiers are there? any champions?
  • Is there a bounty for using fusion rifles? Ok I'll get that, but if I do that

a 100 mod swaps, a few dips back into the vault, and oops that was the time I had to play that night.

They've got a plane's instrument panel level of build tweaking to do and it is getting tedious.

This is one of my (if not the) oldest rants with Destiny. I should not need a 3rd party tool (let alone a suite) to play the game. We should have some sort of user capable ORGANIZATION by now, which has since been compounded by build-crafting. I should be able to use the game to play the game, "crazy" I know. Modern Game-Dev would be impossible with out Jira and other organizational tools because THERE ARE SO MANY BLASTED ASSETS! Sound familiar? How many Exotics and Mods are we at now? Legendary and Consumables? Energy Types... all of it, with more to come. And to think! Over half a decade later, a bunch of game devs who say that they play their game would still allow this to... No. NO! Down INSANEdrive.

*Spritz spritz*

*Grrrr*

Don't you growl in third person to yourself. I know where you sleep lil'mister. Growl at me again and you lose your pudding privileges for a week. Sheesh. (Heavens I'm so weird, lol, it's great. :D)

I have an extensive rant (with solutions) in the wind for this, but I've chosen to wait till after Witch Queen.

I just want to play, I shouldn't need to open YET ANOTHER Excel sheet to get anything done, SO-THAT-I-CAN-PLAY.

Avatar

Overall Changes Thoughts

by cheapLEY @, Friday, November 19, 2021, 08:11 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

Yeah that whole thread on Bungie made it sound crappy. So now I have to dedicate 5 of my Charged with Light mods to get grenade uptime to what I can already have with like two mods?

I’m okay with it because I liked Year 1 D2. It’s the closest we’ve had to Halo from Destiny, and I just straight up think Halo is a better feeling game. I like gunplay far more than ability play, so it sounds fine, other than the potential pain point of other people still having tons of ability spam and I don’t because I don’t particularly like punching myself in the dick repeatedly to have an armor set for every occasion.

Avatar

Overall Changes Thoughts

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, November 19, 2021, 08:40 (17 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I just now started saving loadouts in DIM, bit it's only half of what I need because I can't save mods in the loadout. Of they fixed that I would be ok with the system.

So, I'm going to throw out an idea that had been floating around in my head. When I go and play Halo, grenades are a pickup at specific locations. Destiny is an auto generated grenade. What if they had grenade recharge stations on multiplayer maps, and just turned off grenade auto generation in PvP? So grenades just act like pickups.

If you made zones recharge abilities in control, maybe people would actually play the objective.

Have and Have-nots

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, November 19, 2021, 10:50 (17 days ago) @ squidnh3

My only worry is how this is going to affect my armor stats and how much it’s going to take to get appropriate sets if it really fucks something up.


Yeah, there's an additional quote on Reddit from a Bungie employee about how they want us to lean more in to specific builds to help us regen abilities faster. To that I say, sounds interesting, except that creating builds in-game right now is like doing a slide puzzle (or worse) every time you want to change something.

Also, won't this exacerbate the gulf between the have and have-nots? If I'm getting my grenade back instantly due to a series of complex interactions between mods, and another player has to wait 2 minutes every time to throw a grenade, that sounds like a frustration point to me.

Based on the efforts made, and the explainable rational in how they have chosen their efforts, I'd be quite bewildered if we don't see something of a -long overdue- update to how we build craft a load-out. A big portion of the update seems to be the improved unseen back end which allows Bungie to really tweak granularity as they need to. Similarly, everything points to -for us, we the user- that build-crafting is going to be really a mainstream part of the game going forward. DO note; build-crafting is just another way to say granularity.

It's a huge shift. (Just call it Destiny 3 already!)

All this says to me is that we're going to be getting something yet unannounced. All other answers make little sense. Ideally, we'll be seeing this on the 7th along all these other changes, as you are right. This update will hurt alot more those who are newer to the game, who frankly are already hurting build wise curtsy of the "You had to be there" live game concept. Other ways too, but that's another topic.

Way I'm thinking about looking at this upcoming huge content patch is like a "beta" for Witch Queen. And it doesn't even need to be said that the community will put all parts of this beta to task. We might not see all the necessary parts, "because game dev" I guess. By the time Witch Queen content drops if we haven't seen an update to build crafting implementation, I will stand along with you all torch in hand, bewildered.

Avatar

Have and Have-nots

by bluerunner @, Music City, Friday, November 19, 2021, 12:03 (16 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

Isn't Witch Queen going to start having the other elements work like stasis? No more trees but instead individual swapped perks.

Avatar

Have and Have-nots

by cheapLEY @, Friday, November 19, 2021, 12:34 (16 days ago) @ bluerunner

Isn't Witch Queen going to start having the other elements work like stasis? No more trees but instead individual swapped perks.

Yeah, Void classes are going to get the 3.0 treatment, with the other two following at some point.

TWAB|18th of November, 2021| Is it as bad as I fear?

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 17:35 (17 days ago) @ CyberKN
edited by INSANEdrive, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 17:40

I've not read this TWAB yet. I've scrolled along and hopped about its words to size it up, but as of my now posting this, I know not it's bulk. But clearly, it seems to be of abilities and to that end I have something to say. Or rather, I've had something to say but unfortunately I was unable to finish it due to other obligations in life. In fact that's why I was unable to make a post for last weeks TWAB too, which also has stuff in it worthy of discussion. So perhaps y'all got saved, as what I'm to put here is to be much shorter then the deep dive I would have inevitably made.

It would have been titled: Warlock "Rant": Ability Nerfs Incoming

And it started with these few tweets, which started my considerations in what I wanted to say.




...

The key note in all of this of course being: "nerf will debut in the 30th anniversary patch alongside a slew of other abilities focused on shifting the meta more towards gunplay".

As a Warlock Main, for me the phrase "alongside a slew of other abilities focused on shifting the meta more towards gunplay" brings to me a sense of dread. Why? Because I'm a Warlock main, that's why. Abilities are the Warlock Bread and Butter. That's why Warlocks don't (won't?) have Exotics that buff weapon statistics like Hunters often get, or health like Titans are more likely to get. Each class has it's "fantasy". Warlock kit often adds to the capacity or use of abilities, be they character or FINALLY weapon based. THAT'S THE WARLOCK PLAYSTYLE! Why? Because of all the classes we're the most... OOooo MAGIC! *Wavy Hands*

Wait! I have a .gif for this! :D

[image]

YEAaaaah. ^_^

"Casting Spells" is our deal yo!



(As it just so happens, this clip above occured three years ago today.)

Yet, on the same coin, I know something needed to be done. There was too much ability spam, to the point where in some games it felt repressive and just not fun to play against (if you even had a chance to do so). I know things needed to be toned back for the game to thrive. And even when they push it too far, WHICH IS CERTAINLY going to happen, they can tweak it. But when? Void Middle Tree was nerfed into the ground and not touched again for... I wanna say years.

Now they are touching EVERYTHING. It's a whole new game yet again.

As a WARLOCK MAIN Abilities are my bread and butter. The altering and consuming of power in one way to give me the option to do something else. Eat a grenade - health, grow grenade power, fusion rifle shotgun blast from your feek'n HAND, battle buddy, basically freaking fly. That is just one set of examples.

It's fun. There should be unpredictability when you go up against a Warlock. Perhaps I'm pulling a hunters trick out of my hat, but a Warlock should always have some trick up it's sleeve. We are not fast and agile like hunters, nor the resolute wall of tank like will as titans.

We Warlock mains are the ones with the true bag of tricks.

And so, as Warlock main, what else can I say but...

"I fear no man. But that thing, it scares me."

[image]

Now then... I have some reading to do.

TWAB|18'O'Nov, 2021| It is... hmmmmm.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 19:20 (17 days ago) @ INSANEdrive
edited by INSANEdrive, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 19:42

The Tag(?) for this weeks TWAB is "That's a lot of change. Don't fear it. Embrace it."

I agree. Yet it is not the change I fear, but the past choices and timings in those who weld it. We've been down this road before. In fact, I don't know if we ever left.

PvE. PvP. SoaMFBNM.

  • "Variable Ability Cooldowns system"; Fine. Longer Times = More Power? I get it. This variability will help make the build crafting more interesting. Power or Speed? It's a classic trick, and I'm fine with it.
  • "we want to address the 'Super o’ clock'"; I was biting my tongue the entire time reading this. And you know what... it hurts in a good way. I DON'T KNOW! I RESERVE THE "RIGHT" TO FULL ON BITCH ABOUT THIS LATER ON, but right now...yeah. Ok. I just hope that the ability to one shot supers doesn't hurt more because of this. That expression of power should not be downed by a lone gun without some effort. The note about Ward of Dawn is interesting too.
  • "self-perpetuating loops of ability energy gains"; Subclass Neutral Game Perks, Subclass In-Super Perks, Exotic Armor... X Y Z . . . reduced by 50% in PvP. Hey it rhymes! No change in PvE. What an interesting set of words I did not think I was to see. How fun.

[image]

We won’t go over the full patch notes because it’s mind-numbingly long

Heh heh... challenge accepted. Now lets make these next responses also short and sweet.

|STASIS CRYSTALS|

Larger effect radius, with less harsh returns in PVP. PVE? BLOW IT UP! ... You know what. I Like it.

---Hunter---

In order to meet our goal of less ability spam in the Crucible, we’re reducing how often Hunters can dodge.

OHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... PAAAAAAAIN!!!

[image]

|REVENANT...
...Shatterdive
|

GOOD!

||TOP-TREE ARCSTRIDER ||

Oh shit oh shit oh shit... *reads... "Reduced base cooldown duration from 96s to 15s."

Huh? I'm missing something in the comprehension here.

|BOTTOM-TREE NIGHTSTALKER...
...Vanish in Smoke melee buff.
|

Neat!

---Titan---

|SHOULDER CHARGES|

I'm almost ok with this. All I'll say is with this change, Seismic Strike is king. "Now blinds enemies in the area on hit." That means it will help make the follow up much easier. The other two? IDK man.

|BARRICADE|

I don't know what to say. Indifferent.

|BEHEMOTH|

Diamond Lance changes are interesting, but, does anyone even use these? It's been rare to see. Happy about Shiver Strike, as that did feel a touch weak to me.

|BOTTOM-TREE STRIKER|

A shame. As it was this felt very... Titan. You just... punch. EVERYTHING. AND IT DIES! Oh well.

----Warlock ----

OH GEEEEEEEEEEEEEZZZZ... *DEEP BREATH*... Oh K HERE WE GO...

|||UNCHARGED MELEE|||

Same speed it cool, and I would be bummed out with the range nerf (as.. in all honesty, its very warlock) what they say here gives hope.

We still think the idea of each class having unique qualities to their melee is interesting, but we want to do it in a way that won’t cause one class to consistently lose slap fights. Maybe someday in the future.

||||MIDDLE-TREE VOIDWALKER||||

OH... SHHHit. What. Are Ya Doin'. NOW!

[image]

"Handheld Supernova will no longer one-shot in PvP"

SHIT. I HATE THIS. FUCK. DANG IT. SHIT. lol... MAANnnnn.

it now travels farther and pushes enemies back

*Grumble* Ugh. Eh... THIS SUCKER BETTER LAUNCH APES (to the moon) CUZ, DANG IT! The melee does this too, it launches folks. As now grenades take longer... again... I BETTER BE ABLE TO LAUNCH 'EM TO THE MOON! In fact, could we get that Snappy Speed back? Like the one from the clip I have in the post I'm responding to? Please?
If it's going to take longer to get, and it doesn't even one hit, then BOY-O-BOY it better feel BOSS to use! Y'all nerfed it at one point because at one point it was a shatterdive in its day. Un-nerf that please. PLEASE!

|||SHADEBINDER|||

I hope the Winter's Wrath nerf against supers doesn't make it feel clumsy to use. That Bleak Watcher cooldown nerf man. Instead of keeping it "up my sleeve" now I'll need to make sure I put it on with intent. That's a shame, but I get why.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Y'all did your homework. Instead of me making the long AF post, Bungie did. And that's how it should be. How's this for praise? For once, I'm actually impressed. Despite whatever petty misgivings I may have, Bungie did their due diligence in... *GASP* competent and reasonable choices.

*French Kiss*

Thank you Bungie. See you out there on the 7th.

[image]

Bonus!:

IIsIsaIsaaIsaac
things that I agree with

crystal changes, buff to warlock melee and behemoth changes.

outside of that? it feels like we're going backwards. welcome back to D2 Vanilla

dmg04 Y'know - this has been a concern on many of our minds since the tuning began. A lot of abilities have been dominating the PvP space for years now. While many of the goals outlined in the TWAB today are stepping abilities back a bit in PvP, there was no desire to return specifically to D2Y1 ability regen and cooldown.

Something to note is that a ton of the work being done for this update was to unlock the ability to tune abilities in a more granular fashion. Not just timers, but damage and other aspects of each ability as well.

The team will be watching feedback when these changes roll out on the 7th. Nothing here is set in stone, and it's pretty exciting to think that we can now go through feedback about say, tiers of supers, and have the ability to change ability cooldowns / how quickly you can earn the supers to bring them in line (rather than nerfing damage output or something like that.)

All of this is to say, we totally understand the concerns here. Hopefully when you get your hands on the changes, they won't feel as scary as they might sound on paper. And even if some assumptions are proven correct? We now have more ways to tune things up or down. which will help make the PvP sandbox even more exciting as D2 continues to evolve.

Avatar

TWAB|18th of November, 2021| Is it as bad as I fear?

by cheapLEY @, Thursday, November 18, 2021, 21:05 (17 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

God, I fucking hate Datto.

Avatar

So, why does Shoulder Charge exist?

by Korny @, Dalton, Ga. US. Earth, Sol System, Friday, November 19, 2021, 15:55 (16 days ago) @ CyberKN

Losing Shoulder Charge efficiency is a huge bummer, and regardless of exotics, it, by design, forces you to position yourself closer to the enemy's allies than any other ability, with the understanding that you are okay with that if it secures you the initial kill. That said, they had nerfed it to that degree once before, and it wasn't the Titan killer that we feared at the time.

My big takeaway from this balancing article:

Hunter Dodge
-No longer breaks projectile tracking.


The ability for Hunter dodge to break tracking was the one weakness that my Warlock has had to contend with since the dawn of D2. It's the only thing that consistently puts me at a disadvantage in engagements (and I even have to change out of the Lion against full Hunter teams because of it).

... But no more.

Y'all Hunters out there:

[image]

Meme.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Friday, November 19, 2021, 16:42 (16 days ago) @ Korny

Losing Shoulder Charge efficiency is a huge bummer, and regardless of exotics, it, by design, forces you to position yourself closer to the enemy's allies than any other ability, with the understanding that you are okay with that if it secures you the initial kill. That said, they had nerfed it to that degree once before, and it wasn't the Titan killer that we feared at the time.

My big takeaway from this balancing article:

Hunter Dodge
-No longer breaks projectile tracking.


The ability for Hunter dodge to break tracking was the one weakness that my Warlock has had to contend with since the dawn of D2. It's the only thing that consistently puts me at a disadvantage in engagements (and I even have to change out of the Lion against full Hunter teams because of it).

... But no more.

Y'all Hunters out there:

[image]

As much as I like a good meme, Zoomer brand deep fried memes may be a touch over head of some DBOers. And so... if I may recommend instead... *Ahem*;

Dear Nurfed Hunter Dodge Vs Korny and his Zeal with Lion,

[image]

Back to the forum index
RSS Feed of thread