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Andor (No spoilers) (Off-Topic)

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 10, 2022, 08:59 (355 days ago)

I've watched three episodes. No spoilers please.

It's terrific. Rogue One was my favorite Disney-era Star Wars film by far, so maybe it's not a surprise that I like this. Imagine that Star Wars had HBO-level writing. Not possible, you say. This might be the first Star Wars property that truly feels as if it's made by and for adults. (Empire was the most mature of the original trilogy.) That's not Star Wars, you say. Well, maybe it's not the one you've dreamt of, but it is the one I've dreamt of.

I'm a little shocked they were able to bring me back.

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Andor (No spoilers)

by ManKitten, The Stugotz is strong in me., Monday, October 10, 2022, 09:55 (355 days ago) @ Kermit

I've watched three episodes. No spoilers please.

It's terrific. Rogue One was my favorite Disney-era Star Wars film by far, so maybe it's not a surprise that I like this. Imagine that Star Wars had HBO-level writing. Not possible, you say. This might be the first Star Wars property that truly feels as if it's made by and for adults. (Empire was the most mature of the original trilogy.) That's not Star Wars, you say. Well, maybe it's not the one you've dreamt of, but it is the one I've dreamt of.

I'm a little shocked they were able to bring me back.

I've also only watched the first three episodes and have enjoyed it. Apparently, they are releasing the 12 episodes as four 3 episode arcs?

But, the first 10 minutes of episode 1 made me say "whoa now....Star Wars just got dark"

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Andor (No spoilers)

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 10, 2022, 10:42 (355 days ago) @ ManKitten

I've watched three episodes. No spoilers please.

It's terrific. Rogue One was my favorite Disney-era Star Wars film by far, so maybe it's not a surprise that I like this. Imagine that Star Wars had HBO-level writing. Not possible, you say. This might be the first Star Wars property that truly feels as if it's made by and for adults. (Empire was the most mature of the original trilogy.) That's not Star Wars, you say. Well, maybe it's not the one you've dreamt of, but it is the one I've dreamt of.

I'm a little shocked they were able to bring me back.


I've also only watched the first three episodes and have enjoyed it. Apparently, they are releasing the 12 episodes as four 3 episode arcs?

I've heard that, too. My plan is to watch them three at a time.


But, the first 10 minutes of episode 1 made me say "whoa now....Star Wars just got dark"

It's also an echo of the beginning of Rogue One. The Star Wars youtubers seem divided, but the broader critics seem to be digging it.

I love how much the creators trust the audience. Case in point: No subtitles for the flashback scenes on Kenari. You don't need them, and you don't get them.

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Andor (No spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Monday, October 10, 2022, 13:54 (355 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by cheapLEY, Monday, October 10, 2022, 14:00

It is a fantastic show so far. The best Star Wars has been in a long time. I love watching Jedi swing lightsabers as much as anyone, but this is what I’ve wanted out of Star Wars for a long time. It’s a big universe, it’s about time we explored more of that doesn’t directly connect to the Skywalkers.

This show feels like what the prequels wanted to be. It’s engaging with the politics of the daily life of people in Star Wars in ways I didn’t think Disney ever would, and I love it.

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I agree.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 10, 2022, 15:28 (355 days ago) @ cheapLEY

It is a fantastic show so far. The best Star Wars has been in a long time. I love watching Jedi swing lightsabers as much as anyone, but this is what I’ve wanted out of Star Wars for a long time. It’s a big universe, it’s about time we explored more of that doesn’t directly connect to the Skywalkers.

This show feels like what the prequels wanted to be.

I may not give the prequels that much credit.

It’s engaging with the politics of the daily life of people in Star Wars in ways I didn’t think Disney ever would, and I love it.

I love the scene between Karn and his superior--it's nuanced, and would not be out of place in The Wire. And it's not just politics (thankfully, because life is more than that), it's engaging in the lives of real, complex people who have a history that runs deep in this universe, and the script smartly hints at these huge icebergs below eye level. At one point Cassian says, "you should find a less complicated woman," but just about everyone is presented as complicated. Even the asshole corporate cop at the beginning is genuinely grief-stricken at the death of his partner.

It's disorienting how good it is. I feel like I got into a Beetle, but it's driving like a Rolls Royce.

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I agree.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, October 10, 2022, 15:53 (355 days ago) @ Kermit

And it's not just politics (thankfully, because life is more than that), it's engaging in the lives of real, complex people who have a history that runs deep in this universe

That’s politics. Maybe not in the capitol P sense that we normally mean when the word is brought up, but the daily trials and tribulations of society and the people that live within it is politics. Politics isn’t just about governance, it’s every aspect of societal structure. Andor seems deeply interested in that. It feels like they thought about the history of the people and places we see in a way that Star Wars typically doesn’t, and I love it.

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I agree.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 10, 2022, 19:27 (355 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Kermit, Monday, October 10, 2022, 20:09

And it's not just politics (thankfully, because life is more than that), it's engaging in the lives of real, complex people who have a history that runs deep in this universe


That’s politics. Maybe not in the capitol P sense that we normally mean when the word is brought up, but the daily trials and tribulations of society and the people that live within it is politics. Politics isn’t just about governance, it’s every aspect of societal structure. Andor seems deeply interested in that. It feels like they thought about the history of the people and places we see in a way that Star Wars typically doesn’t, and I love it.

I am interested in how the show explores the political machinations of the universe (which I suspect it will do more seriously and thoughtfully than it's been done before). That's all good, as long as it keeps its focus on characters primarily, as it has so far. Otherwise, I think I disagree. Do politics dictate how the characters in Cassian's personal orbit feel about him and vice versa? Is his love for his sister political? To say politics is behind it all is, to me, having the cart pull the horse. Our lives (and good stories) are about more than "societal structure"--however that's defined. I'm not saying this is you, but I often find when people start using phrases like that, they're presenting an untouchable, rhetorical tar baby-- a way of subsuming "every aspect" of experience into a political narrative, at which point the word "politics" has no meaning, because it means everything, or, rather, nothing exists outside it. I find that a very sad and narrow way to view the human condition--a view that denies individual agency (along with much else that makes us human).

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I agree.

by cheapLEY @, Monday, October 10, 2022, 21:27 (354 days ago) @ Kermit

Do politics dictate how the characters in Cassian's personal orbit feel about him and vice versa?

I mean, yes, absolutely. Politics is the driving factor for Luthen even forming a relationship with him in the first place. Politics decided he was of lower class and is probably the only reason he knows Bix at all. To acknowledge that doesn't take away his agency in actually taking the step to form those connections. Him killing those two cops is politics--they were in a position of authority in that society and thought they could bully him. That's politics! Andor, the show, is absolutely interested in that dynamic. Not to the exclusion of good characters and telling a good story, but you can see that exploration of society everywhere in the show.

I find that a very sad and narrow way to view the human condition--a view that denies individual agency (along with much else that makes us human).

I think that's silly, honestly. Our human condition, even on an individual level, is massively determined by the politics of our society and it's structure. That doesn't erase our own agency in determining our lives and shaping who we are, but it's an inescapable fact of life, and to pretend like our agency isn't at least somewhat determined by our place in that society is naive.

I think you're making it something much more insidious than it actually is when I say something is "political." You're looking at that word through too much of a modern twitter lens or something, I think.

Andor seems undeniably interested in the politics of Star Wars (even outside the obvious of Mon Mothma being a major character). Star Wars has always been about the little guy taking on the big empire, but this is the first time it feels like it's really examining what the politics (both large and small, general and capital P) mean for the average person in the galaxy. We've seen countless Stormtroopers killed on screen, but this is the first time we've seen two random cops killed for being dickheads (while also managing to make one of them at least very slightly sympathetic). We've gone from Greedo retroactively shooting first so that Han isn't the bad guy or something to Andor murdering cops in the back alley. Then we get the supervisor of those cops understanding exactly what happened and trying to get it covered up just so the Empire doesn't come in full force and really take over the sector.

Yes, like all good stories, this one is about characters and their relationships, but Andor is absolutely interested in exploring how characters live within and are shaped by the politics and society of that galaxy. That it can do both successfully is a testament to how good the show is.

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I agree.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, October 17, 2022, 09:06 (348 days ago) @ cheapLEY
edited by Kermit, Monday, October 17, 2022, 09:26

Do politics dictate how the characters in Cassian's personal orbit feel about him and vice versa?


I mean, yes, absolutely. Politics is the driving factor for Luthen even forming a relationship with him in the first place. Politics decided he was of lower class and is probably the only reason he knows Bix at all. To acknowledge that doesn't take away his agency in actually taking the step to form those connections. Him killing those two cops is politics--they were in a position of authority in that society and thought they could bully him. That's politics! Andor, the show, is absolutely interested in that dynamic. Not to the exclusion of good characters and telling a good story, but you can see that exploration of society everywhere in the show.

[Emphasis mine] I won't edit out the parts of your post I don't address explicitly. I responded after watching the third episode where Luthen knew Cassian for five minutes, so when I said personal orbit, I meant his pre-established relationships--why did people care about him? Why did he care about people? For that matter, we know Luthen is part of the rebellion, who are fighting against the political regime, but what makes him want to? That's beyond politics, and that's what is interesting.

I find [saying politics is behind every aspect of human experience] a very sad and narrow way to view the human condition--a view that denies individual agency (along with much else that makes us human).


I think that's silly, honestly. Our human condition, even on an individual level, is massively determined by the politics of our society and it's structure.

It's silly if you interpret the human condition to mean the opposite of what it's widely understood to mean--it's not the specific conditions in which an individual lives. And I'm not going to touch "structure" again--I find that word represents an unfalsifiable abstraction--it's a conversation ender.

That doesn't erase our own agency in determining our lives and shaping who we are, but it's an inescapable fact of life, and to pretend like our agency isn't at least somewhat determined by our place in that society is naive.

Which is it, massively determined or somewhat determined? I'm always want to hear others' opinions (and yours are always interesting), and I'm even more interested in how you come to them, and how you believe the world operates, and this post is enlightening. You give a lot of agency to politics and not a lot of people (Cassian didn't meet Bix--politics decided that Cassian could meet Bix). I think you have a much more deterministic outlook than I do, and that's probably why we find ourselves talking past one another. If we were talking about psychology, I suspect you're more Freudian, and I'm more Alderian, and that's okay.


I think you're making it something much more insidious than it actually is when I say something is "political." You're looking at that word through too much of a modern twitter lens or something, I think.

Twitter? Nah, never touch the stuff. Rots the brain.


Andor seems undeniably interested in the politics of Star Wars (even outside the obvious of Mon Mothma being a major character). Star Wars has always been about the little guy taking on the big empire, but this is the first time it feels like it's really examining what the politics (both large and small, general and capital P) mean for the average person in the galaxy. We've seen countless Stormtroopers killed on screen, but this is the first time we've seen two random cops killed for being dickheads (while also managing to make one of them at least very slightly sympathetic).

I agree with what you say, I just don't label so much of it as politics. This is the first time I've seen this level of complexity and realism in Star Wars.

We've gone from Greedo retroactively shooting first so that Han isn't the bad guy or something to Andor murdering cops in the back alley. Then we get the supervisor of those cops understanding exactly what happened and trying to get it covered up just so the Empire doesn't come in full force and really take over the sector.

I know, right? Isn't it great?


Yes, like all good stories, this one is about characters and their relationships, but Andor is absolutely interested in exploring how characters live within and are shaped by the politics and society of that galaxy. That it can do both successfully is a testament to how good the show is.

Yes. The story matters most, though, and stories are about people taking action, perhaps despite having been "shaped."

Honestly, I think part of my pushback is not against you, but against people who view their entertainment as good only if it confirms their views. I think more and more people think that way, and you end up with mediocre, predictable art, like "Vice" or "God's Not Dead." The good stuff broadens our views, and the top tier stuff challenges our views by presenting a world nearly as complex as own, which is always more complex than we otherwise could have imagined. I don't know where Andor will land, but I've got high hopes.

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Andor (No spoilers)

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, October 10, 2022, 14:12 (355 days ago) @ Kermit

I caught a very minor passing reference to the name of a species from KotOR, which I appreciated.

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Just wow. (Still no spoilers)

by cheapLEY @, Wednesday, October 12, 2022, 19:23 (353 days ago) @ Kermit

I just finished the newest episode. Just . . . damn. For the most part, I like modern Star Wars (I pretend Rise of Skywalker doesn’t exist). I like Clone Wars and Rebels a lot, I mostly liked The Mandalorian. Hell, I think Solo is a damn good movie. But even I didn’t think a mainline Star Wars entry would ever really be this good again.

If you’re a lapsed Star Wars fan, watch this show.

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Just wow. (Still no spoilers)

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, October 13, 2022, 17:20 (352 days ago) @ cheapLEY

I didn't think they could pull off such a plot within a single episode, but the mad bastards did it. With amazing visuals to boot.

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