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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread (Off-Topic)

by ncsuDuncan @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 21:32 (3790 days ago)

Confession time:

I recently watched my first full episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

I've always been familiar with Trek - as a kid, I watched a large swath of the Original Series with my Dad. In sixth grade, I dressed up as Spock for Halloween - complete with Mom-made science officer uniform and cheesy rubber ears. I've seen all of the movies except for Insurrection and Nemesis (though I barely remember Generations aside from zombie Captain Kirk riding a horse and the saucer section crashing). The internet introduced me to a fair number of clips from The Next Generation and I learned about all of the main characters (and their memes), but for some reason I never got around to watching a full episode of TNG.

Time to fix that. Netflix has the full run, so last week I started with S01-E01 and I'm already up to E07. I've heard the first two seasons are rough, but when I decide that a TV show is worth my time I'm compelled to watch every episode in order - even if there aren't a ton of overarching plot lines. (Partly because I hate spoilers, but mostly because I love callback jokes.)

Just thought that might be interesting to some of you Trekkies on DBO. I'll try to post impressions as I progress through each season. :)

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by roland ⌂ @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 22:22 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I've heard the first two seasons are rough,

You have heard correctly... there are a few scattered gems in S01 and S02 (mostly involving 'Q' IMO) but they're mostly pretty rough.

If you make it to S06 you'll see my favorite episode of TNG ever, 'Tapestry'.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 22:51 (3790 days ago) @ roland

I've heard the first two seasons are rough,


You have heard correctly... there are a few scattered gems in S01 and S02 (mostly involving 'Q' IMO) but they're mostly pretty rough.

If you make it to S06 you'll see my favorite episode of TNG ever, 'Tapestry'.

Measure of a Man is season 2 I believe, and that one is very very good. Closer on his list I think.

"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by scarab @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:19 (3790 days ago) @ Cody Miller

The episode that invented a prejudice that didn't exist prior to the episode.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Monday, December 09, 2013, 17:44 (3790 days ago) @ scarab

The Inner Light. Episode 25 of the Fifth Season. A Flute is involved.

What more do you need to know?

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 22:50 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I've seen every Episode of TOS, TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

But like 4 episodes of Enterprise. Fuck enterprise.

TNG gets pretty amazing later on.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 22:50 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

Wow. I would like very much to be able to watch that show through fresh eyes again, as you're doing. Have fun. And yeah, the first two seasons are rough when compared to the later stuff, but I think they're worth watching anyway.

I know you've got a long way to go before it comes up, but have you seen DS9 or Voyager? Enterprise is excellent IMO as well (I'm just about done watching it for the 2nd time through).

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 22:52 (3790 days ago) @ stabbim

Enterprise is excellent IMO as well (I'm just about done watching it for the 2nd time through).

Please tell me you are trolling.

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Dude, just get passed the theme song and you're golden.

by MrPadraig08 ⌂ @, Steel City, Monday, December 09, 2013, 07:15 (3790 days ago) @ Cody Miller

- No text -

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Just mute it. The visual montage is great for the show.

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, December 09, 2013, 07:22 (3790 days ago) @ MrPadraig08

- No text -

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IT'S BEEN A LAWWWWNG RAWWWDDDD

by Jillybean, Monday, December 09, 2013, 14:26 (3790 days ago) @ MrPadraig08

- No text -

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, December 09, 2013, 07:20 (3790 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Please tell me you are trolling.

How rude.

One thing Star Trek has reinforced in my mind is respect for others' perspectives. I loved Enterprise.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 09, 2013, 09:45 (3790 days ago) @ Leviathan
edited by Cody Miller, Monday, December 09, 2013, 09:52

Please tell me you are trolling.


How rude.

One thing Star Trek has reinforced in my mind is respect for others' perspectives. I loved Enterprise.

Really? Lol. The federation is based on the fact that your society has to have certain values and liberties to even JOIN the federation. Sounds like the opposite, where the goal is to create the best monoculture.

Picard has repeatedly chastised other civilizations who believe in Gods, calling it superstitious nonsense. There's respect to the point where it starts to cause harm, and liking Enterprise definitely causes harm :-p

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, December 09, 2013, 10:21 (3790 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Please tell me you are trolling.


How rude.

One thing Star Trek has reinforced in my mind is respect for others' perspectives. I loved Enterprise.


Really? Lol. The federation is based on the fact that your society has to have certain values and liberties to even JOIN the federation. Sounds like the opposite, where the goal is to create the best monoculture.

Not always huge fan of the Federation really, and TNG and many of the other shows sometime show its faults from time to time, which I've always enjoyed, but I don't view it as a monoculture at all (Starfleet might approach one though).

There's some common ground between the various societies, of course, but Klingons, Humans, Romulans, Andorians and others are vastly different in their practices and beliefs. The Federation holds them together through co-operation, not by dismantling their various perspectives. Since the shows mostly focus on a crew, yes, you're going to see a lack of uniqueness, as you would in any army/navy/air force crew, as its efficient and required for keeping the ship alive. But in the down time you see Picard studying his books, Worf burning and killing shit, a Vulcan meditating, or Odo sitting in a bucket.

Picard has repeatedly chastised other civilizations who believe in Gods, calling it superstitious nonsense. There's respect to the point where it starts to cause harm, and liking Enterprise definitely causes harm :-p

Picard sometimes did get frustrated over those things when it came down to certain dangerous situations - but he also spent much time deliberating on whether or not the ship should get involved at all, as well as spending most episodes preserving old, strange, and new cultures and religions. In fact, you could say his love for archaeology and new frontiers is completely founded on a deep interest for something different than the usual perspective, whether he believed in it or not.

He was also a great friend to Worf and respected his spiritual beliefs and traditions. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

Asking someone if they're trolling or if they're serious when they announce their opinion can imply that you think their view isn't worthy of being serious. It can come off condescending and disrespectful if you don't have any context clues to the tone in which it is said.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by RC ⌂, UK, Monday, December 09, 2013, 12:52 (3790 days ago) @ Leviathan

Ordo sitting in a bucket.

I know who you mean, but damn dude that ain't his name.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, December 09, 2013, 12:58 (3790 days ago) @ RC

Ordo sitting in a bucket.


I know who you mean, but damn dude that ain't his name.

His name sometimes stretches and pulls like his body. It should probably be back to normal now. :)

(Canderous Ordo from Knights of the Republic was the likely inciter for this memory issue.)

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 09, 2013, 13:31 (3790 days ago) @ Leviathan

He was also a great friend to Worf and respected his spiritual beliefs and traditions. You don't have to agree with someone to respect them.

I distinctly remember (can't remember the episode though) where Picard told Worf to do something and Worf refused because of his beliefs. Picard basically said Worf, I don't care about your beliefs, carry out my orders or be court martialed.

Help on this one Loftus?

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, December 09, 2013, 13:51 (3790 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Well in First Contact he called Worf a coward and ordered him to "Get off my bridge" when Worf didn't want to continue fighting the Borg, but I doubt that's what you're talking about. Still, Picard also stood beside Worf during the whole thing about his father's sins, or when Picard agreed to be the Arbiter of Succession of the Klingon empire. Surely Picard was far more tolerant of Worf and his traditions than adversarial to them.

That and every single member of the bridge crew deserved a court marshaled for something or other by the end of the series. Off the top of my head: Riker for the whole Pegasus thing, Data for hijacking the Enterprise by, among other things, perfectly mimicing Picard's voice, Wesley for being an idiot, Ensign Ro for helping the Maqui, Deanna for... eh... being mind controlled or something, Geordie for... hmm... I can't think of anything at the moment...

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by SonofMacPhisto @, Monday, December 09, 2013, 20:50 (3789 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Geordie for... hmm... I can't think of anything at the moment...

Working nights at "Reading Rainbow." You give Starfleet 110%, sir.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by ncsuDuncan @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:03 (3790 days ago) @ stabbim

I know you've got a long way to go before it comes up, but have you seen DS9 or Voyager?

Nope! One step at a time. :P

"Sisko"
"Captain Janeway"
"Seven of Nine" - pretty Borg lady
uhh, DS9 was a space station
Voyager was a smaller ship - possibly lost in space?
There was a Simpsons joke about a Voyager series finale party.

^ That is the sum total of my knowledge about those two shows.

"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Phoenix_9286 @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:26 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I know you've got a long way to go before it comes up, but have you seen DS9 or Voyager?


Nope! One step at a time. :P

"Sisko"
"Captain Janeway"
"Seven of Nine" - pretty Borg lady
uhh, DS9 was a space station
Voyager was a smaller ship - possibly lost in space?
There was a Simpsons joke about a Voyager series finale party.

^ That is the sum total of my knowledge about those two shows.

Definitely make plans to watch DS9. Like TNG, the first season or two is slow going, but then things get seriously good. I personally think it's worlds better than TNG, but I tend to like my SciFi darker and with overarching storylines.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Mid7night ⌂ @, Rocket BSCHSHCSHSHCCHGGH!!!!!!, Monday, December 09, 2013, 12:09 (3790 days ago) @ Phoenix_9286

Definitely make plans to watch DS9. Like TNG, the first season or two is slow going, but then things get seriously good. I personally think it's worlds better than TNG, but I tend to like my SciFi darker and with overarching storylines.

It also has the best theme song, gives me chills every time. But I love french horns, so there's that. ;)

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First thoughts.

by ncsuDuncan @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:23 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I'm seven episodes in (assuming Encounter of Farpoint counts as two episodes).

- The Enterprise has a serious problem maintaining quarantine.

- Tasha Yar is more aggressive than Worf! I'm guessing this character doesn't last too long because it's the only main character I couldn't name beforehand.

- Councillor Troi seems like she's just there to state the obvious. From my limited knowledge of the show I never knew there was a psychic on board the Enterprise.

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."

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7 episodes in 1 hour. Not bad. :)

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:35 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

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7 episodes in 1 hour. Not bad. :)

by ncsuDuncan @, Sunday, December 08, 2013, 23:38 (3790 days ago) @ Ragashingo

[image]

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First thoughts.

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, December 09, 2013, 11:34 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I'm seven episodes in (assuming Encounter of Farpoint counts as two episodes).

- The Enterprise has a serious problem maintaining quarantine.

Yup, and this is not a problem that the Federation is going to solve any time soon. Nor is any other faction in the Trek universe, for that matter.

- Tasha Yar is more aggressive than Worf! I'm guessing this character doesn't last too long because it's the only main character I couldn't name beforehand.

Picture someone desperately trying not to blurt out spoilers. That's me right now.

- Councillor Troi seems like she's just there to state the obvious. From my limited knowledge of the show I never knew there was a psychic on board the Enterprise.

Yeah, to be honest I didn't really like her character for most of the show. There are some good moments later on but mostly it seems she's just there as a plot device.

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."

:)

First thoughts.

by DeeJ ⌂, Bungie, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 14:59 (3789 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."

If you're going to strip it of its magic, just walk away.

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First thoughts.

by ncsuDuncan @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 21:13 (3788 days ago) @ DeeJ

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."


If you're going to strip it of its magic, just walk away.

Terribly shortsighted of the show's creators; why didn't they optimize TNG's pacing for fans watching on a commercial-free HD movie streaming service accessed through a voice-controlled video game console? Should have been pretty obvious 26 years ago...

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First thoughts.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 22:21 (3788 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

Well TNG invented the iPad... and Siri... So why not the Xbox One? :p

And the floppy disk

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 22:30 (3788 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Though DS9 thinks you'd use an iPad per document.

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First thoughts.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Monday, May 19, 2014, 11:38 (3629 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Well TNG invented the iPad... and Siri... So why not the Xbox One? :p

Really?

[image]

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First thoughts.

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 15:56 (3789 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."

I guess it was a thing of that time. For example, every single Discovery Channel criminal investigations series. Every damn commercial break and they have to spend half its between-commercials time retelling everything.

First thoughts.

by Phoenix_9286 @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 19:02 (3788 days ago) @ ZackDark

- "Captain's Log: Supplemental. We are now at the 22-minute mark, so I'm going to explain the situation for any viewers that just flipped to this channel."


I guess it was a thing of that time. For example, every single Discovery Channel criminal investigations series. Every damn commercial break and they have to spend half its between-commercials time retelling everything.

You also have the hilarious opposite extreme. Last time I was at the dentist, they had Judge Judy on the TV. Prior to every commercial break, they'd give you a preview of what was coming up next. Without fail, the preview of what was coming up next was basically EXACTLY what was after the break. Word for word, second for second. You got to watch everything TWICE.

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by Quirel, Monday, December 09, 2013, 01:22 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

Just thought that might be interesting to some of you Trekkies on DBO. I'll try to post impressions as I progress through each season. :)

There are ten raised to the twentieth raised to the hundredth electrons in this multiverse. If every one was to be given a voice, and every one was to shriek "Hate! Hate! Hate!" for all of eternity, it would be but a grain of sand in the infinite desert of hatred that I feel. For Star Trek. At this moment.
Hate. Hate. Hate.

And, ah, I guess it's time that I watched all the way through one of the seasons. Maybe I ought to give Voyager the full run.

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Close enough.

by INSANEdrive, ಥ_ಥ | f(ಠ‿↼)z | ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ| ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, Monday, December 09, 2013, 17:39 (3790 days ago) @ Quirel

Just thought that might be interesting to some of you Trekkies on DBO. I'll try to post impressions as I progress through each season. :)


There are ten raised to the twentieth raised to the hundredth electrons in this multiverse. If every one was to be given a voice, and every one was to shriek "Hate! Hate! Hate!" for all of eternity, it would be but a grain of sand in the infinite desert of hatred that I feel. For Star Trek. At this moment.
Hate. Hate. Hate.

And, ah, I guess it's time that I watched all the way through one of the seasons. Maybe I ought to give Voyager the full run.

[image]

;)


If I may ask, Why? Too much of the thing?

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Close enough.

by Quirel, Monday, December 09, 2013, 21:26 (3789 days ago) @ INSANEdrive

;)


If I may ask, Why? Too much of the thing?

...No one particular reason, really. Just a lot of contributing factors.

[image]

I can understand that the original series was campy, hamfisted, and kinda clueless, because those were the early days of television. But the later series never got their act together either. It kind of speaks volumes that Wrath of Khan is not only considered to be the best Star Trek movie, but a great Star Trek movie.

So, there's a dearth of great science fiction TV shows. What would television be like now if Star Trek hadn't had that long, slow slide into mediocrity? Would Firefly have gotten more of a chance?

And no, I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. Right now, Star Trek is in the hands of a director who doesn't quite get how storytelling works.

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Close enough.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, December 09, 2013, 22:07 (3789 days ago) @ Quirel

I can understand that the original series was campy, hamfisted, and kinda clueless, because those were the early days of television. But the later series never got their act together either. It kind of speaks volumes that Wrath of Khan is not only considered to be the best Star Trek movie, but a great Star Trek movie.

What's wrong with The Wrath of Khan??


So, there's a dearth of great science fiction TV shows. What would television be like now if Star Trek hadn't had that long, slow slide into mediocrity? Would Firefly have gotten more of a chance?

You'll need a better example than Firefly. One would think all the horrible things done to that show (episodes out of order, horrible marketing, etc) had much more to do with its demise than anything Start Trek related.

I do think the mere presence of Star Trek over its long run did serve to limit what other scifi shows got air time and support, but that was more tv networks being idiots and not taking risks beyond their one established scifi franchise and not Star Trek itself being good or bad.


And no, I don't think it's going to get better anytime soon. Right now, Star Trek is in the hands of a director who doesn't quite get how storytelling works.

Eh? I enjoyed both of the new Trek films. They were very different, and had a problem here or there, but they weren't mind numbingly stupid or anything... well except for magic death curing blood...

I have my own problems with Star Trek. I think it should have aspired to bigger grander story telling. I think it for far too long limited itself in what it could do to its characters, to how much they could change or grow. I think in some ways the Star Trek universe itself is somewhat broken and at odds with telling good stories since it starts with most basic problems from money to disease already solved. But despite all of that good stories and even story lines did get through. Would I choose a new Star Trek series over a new series of Battlestar Galactica or Babylon 5 or Firefly? No. But I still enjoyed a lot of Star Trek and it would be neat to see a new show some time in the future.

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Close enough.

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, December 09, 2013, 22:17 (3789 days ago) @ Ragashingo

I think in some ways the Star Trek universe itself is somewhat broken and at odds with telling good stories since it starts with most basic problems from money to disease already solved.

There are tons of stories about money and disease. If I had a nickel for every time I heard the show say 'gold pressed latinum' I'd make any Ferengi jealous!

Also, these are the least interesting problems facing humanity anyway.

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Close enough.

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Monday, December 09, 2013, 23:23 (3789 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I think in some ways the Star Trek universe itself is somewhat broken and at odds with telling good stories since it starts with most basic problems from money to disease already solved.


There are tons of stories about money and disease. If I had a nickel for every time I heard the show say 'gold pressed latinum' I'd make any Ferengi jealous!

Also, these are the least interesting problems facing humanity anyway.

Yes, but Star Trek's default state is more like:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The economics of the future are somewhat different. You see, money doesn't exist in the 24th century.
Lily Sloane: No money? You mean, you don't get paid?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force of our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity.

Deanna Troi: When they realize they're not alone in the universe, poverty, disease, war - they'll all be gone within the next fifty years.

To quote Lily: "Bullshit!"

I find this default state unappealing because it removes or limits avenues of story telling. Yes, money crept back in, most notably with the Ferengi and Deep Space 9, but I see that as a good thing, a necessary thing even. A universe lacking resource limitations is very hard to relate to! As is one where everybody works solely to better themselves and the rest of humanity. Maybe disease and money aren't aren't humanity's most interesting problems, but taking away ambition, jealousy, hate, greed, and suffering? Those are interesting!

The difference between Star Trek and my favorite scifi universes is that they all start much more relatable and much better places to tell a full variety of stories, where as Star Trek has to overcome its overly good ideals. And even then the universe is a bit tainted in my mind because it tried to submit the idea that something as fundamental as money and all its associated positives and negatives would ever vanish in the first place.

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Close enough.

by Quirel, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 00:55 (3789 days ago) @ Ragashingo

What's wrong with The Wrath of Khan??

Khan was a great villain in the original series, so they decided to bring him back. He would be an Ahab-figure, so bent upon the destruction of Kirk that he could no longer assess his situation rationally. Meanwhile, the crew of the Enterprise are late into their careers, and Kirk is especially feeling obsolete.

Great, great idea. I love some of the themes and ideas behind this movie, I just think the execution was lousy. Sit for a moment, and think of the coincidences that they set up in order for the above to take place.

-Ceti Alpha VI has to explode. No big deal, happens all the time in science fiction.
-Ceti Alpha VI explodes hard enough to shift the orbit of Ceti Alpha V.
-Without stripping V's atmosphere off.
-Federation sensors, keen enough to spot microbes from orbit, cannot detect the missing sixth planet. Or the cloud of hot debris it should have left behind.
-Or the difference between a patch of microbial life and an enclave of superhumans.
-Or the presence of a mind-controlling grub, the only other species to survive the blast.
-Meanwhile, at the exact same time, Kirk lets himself be talked into captaining the Enterprise one last time.
-When arriving at the location of a research station that appears to be in distress, Kirk lets his guard down to a ship that is acting shady as Hell, which lets Khan get the jump on him. Uhura is the only one (besides the audience) that sees this coming.

The above, and several other elements, struck me as an incredibly contrived way to get Kirk and Khan fighting each other.

And as far as science fiction goes, I'm not sure how I feel about the Genesis Device. Sure, Star Trek is on the gooey-soft end of the sci-fi hardness scale, but the explicit division of 'living' and 'dead' life is a canard that I've gotten tired of. And it also strains credulity that only three people in existence can see potential for weaponizing it. And when Scotty learns about Genesis, he is apparently so overcome with existential despair that he can't even begin to coherently explain why a terraforming superweapon is going to upset the balance of power.

And I want to talk about how stupid the 3D Space Maneuver was, but that'll have to wait for another day.

You'll need a better example than Firefly. One would think all the horrible things done to that show (episodes out of order, horrible marketing, etc) had much more to do with its demise than anything Start Trek related.

Firefly was screwed over because executives didn't think it would have an audience. I'm trying to imagine a world where Star Trek didn't peter out with Voyager and Enterprise, and maybe created the audience to support more science fiction shows.

And yes, I do need better examples, but I'm too strung out to think of them.

Eh? I enjoyed both of the new Trek films. They were very different, and had a problem here or there, but they weren't mind numbingly stupid or anything... well except for magic death curing blood...

OK. How about this. I realize that Star Trek has been absolutely terrible about sensibly applying the in-universe technology*, but how stupid do the characters have to be to not realize that they can just beam warheads after Khan with the same teleporter technology he used to escape to Qo'noS?

* Number of times that a replicator has been used to make replacement organs or ship parts: 0.
Number of times that a replicator has been used to make "Tea. Earl Gray. Hot.": Too many.

I have my own problems with Star Trek. I think it should have aspired to bigger grander story telling. I think it for far too long limited itself in what it could do to its characters, to how much they could change or grow. I think in some ways the Star Trek universe itself is somewhat broken and at odds with telling good stories since it starts with most basic problems from money to disease already solved.

Personally, I think that the biggest problem with Star Trek is that many of the series followed a "Wagon Train to the stars" approach. Sure, this gives you endless potential for stories about the USS Enterprise running into negative space wedgies or making nice with the local primitives. However, this shifts focus to civilizations which will only appear in that one episode, and there's insufficient time to explore an alien culture.

Star Trek would be better served with a series that spends time fleshing out what Federation life is like, and how it's different from modern life. So, maybe a series about the Federation intervening on a dying planet, and helping a more primitive civilization set up a colony on a new world.

Also: Star Trek writers would have to treat technology as more than a convenient plot device.

Things that annoy me about tWoK

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 04:11 (3789 days ago) @ Ragashingo

  • people who say that it's the most intelligentest of the ST films yet it contains massive amounts of stupidity and was based on a false premise (see next point) and it's execution did the opposite of what it was intended to achieve (and fanboys never noticed) (see 2 points down)
  • people who say that prior to this film Kirk had always ignored the consequences of failure and had been teflon (ignoring what had been established during TOS)
  • That the answer to the question, "Am I too old for this job?" was, from what we saw in the film, a definite YES. And yet he managed to keep his job and didn't get relieved of command.
  • Kirk not raising shields for no well defined reason
  • Spock tells Kirk how to defeat Khan - and the ploy was laughable - a superior intellect has problems with spacial reasoning?
  • Scotty abandons his post during an attack to try to lay a guilt trip on his commanding officer
  • after many years my memory is hazy but... Checkov said that Kahn put things in their ears to control their minds and nobody asked: are they still there? how did you resist? and Bones didn't immediately scan him with his medical tricorder.

So, in summary, my problems with it are the same as most of my problems with ST.

  • The sheer lack of thought that went into it.
  • The incompetent execution that completely undermine the points that the writers are trying to convey
  • The fact that fans never notice these problems or make excuses for them (I blame the fans for the continued naffness of ST) (the makers make shit and the fans lap it up)

other things that annoy me about ST

  • it's anti-science - I like my science fiction to at least understand science - but it almost never does so I'm pretty used to that - still doesn't make me happy about it - most tv/film SF is inherently Luddite
  • Federation types who profess a respect for different cultures and yet turn up their noses at other people's food because it is too spicy
  • warp core breaches, ODN junctions, plasma leaks, shields down to 30%, the most boring and implausible battles imaginable - people getting injured because their consoles explode after the ship has been hit (WTF?!?)

Those aren't exhaustive lists (though I am exhausted typing them) :-)

I'm glad ST has finished and I don't want to see it coming back.

I'm ignoring the new films - they are fairly naff but are, mildly, entertaining and don't have pretensions of intellectual worth.

t'teflon' Kirk in TOS

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 04:55 (3789 days ago) @ scarab

  • guilt and regret
  • the demands of command - from The naked Time "KIRK: I've got it, the disease. Love. You're better off without it, and I'm better off without mine. This vessel, I give, she takes. She won't permit me my life. I've got to live hers.
    SPOCK: Jim.
    KIRK: I have a beautiful yeoman. Have you noticed her, Mister Spock? You're allowed to notice her. The Captain's not permitted
    SPOCK: Jim, there is an intermix formula.
    KIRK: Now I know why it's called she.
    SPOCK: It's never been tested. It's a theoretical relationship between time and antimatter.
    KIRK: Flesh woman to touch, to hold. A beach to walk on. A few days, no braid on my shoulder.
    SCOTT: Captain.
    KIRK: Scotty, help."
  • there are other examples but it's been decades so I can't call them all to mind

yWoK pretends that that stuff never happened.

I tried to find a youtube vid of the scene in the Naked Time. I found it but it's buried in a slash video. ;-)

Still - it's at about 4:58 in http://youtu.be/V6R3n1DHr7M

watch the vid but ignore the captions.

OMG My other post was spam filtered

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 04:57 (3789 days ago) @ scarab

I wonder what was in it that triggered the spam filter. Was it the quotes from the N***d Time episode?

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OMG My other post was spam filtered

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, December 13, 2013, 19:51 (3785 days ago) @ scarab

Things that are marked as spam, from my experience, has been embedded images or links to external sites.

(Or of course, actual spam.)

How do you give citations without referring to other sites?

by scarab @, Saturday, December 14, 2013, 00:01 (3785 days ago) @ Leviathan

But nobody has asked for citations so I suppose it's OK.

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Ya can't. :)

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Saturday, December 14, 2013, 08:16 (3785 days ago) @ scarab

And there's nothing wrong with linking to other sites, and it happens all the time here. Every once in a while though, the filter blocks a real post. I don't quite understand the nuances of it, but it does seem like the more posts I mark as not-spam, the less these incidences happen.

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It's learning our ways!

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Saturday, December 14, 2013, 11:34 (3785 days ago) @ Leviathan

I, for one, welcome our new robot overlords.

I don't want the human race ruled by DBO's spam filter

by scarab @, Saturday, December 14, 2013, 12:46 (3785 days ago) @ ZackDark

somehow it's...

a bit of an anti-climax. I expected more.

Of all the things that could have ended our freedoms - a spam filter - do you know what I mean?

Though to a spam filter the entire human race could be seen as just a giant source of spam.

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I don't want the human race ruled by DBO's spam filter

by Quirel, Saturday, December 14, 2013, 14:04 (3785 days ago) @ scarab

somehow it's...

a bit of an anti-climax. I expected more.

Of all the things that could have ended our freedoms - a spam filter - do you know what I mean?

Though to a spam filter the entire human race could be seen as just a giant source of spam.

[image]

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*Jaw drops*

by Quirel, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 10:45 (3789 days ago) @ scarab

Scarab just said everything better than I could.

Spock tells Kirk how to defeat Khan - and the ploy was laughable - a superior intellect has problems with spacial reasoning?...

Khan's is not the only superior intellect that has problems with spacial reasoning.

Essentially, the Enterprise's maneuver boils down to diving and then resurfacing. Which not only places the Enterprise into the plane being searched by Khan, but presents them with a smaller target.

A more intelligent (And consistent with Spock's criticism of Khan's thinking) maneuver would be to match velocities with the Reliant from below (or above, relative to the Reliant) and then orient to fire.

after many years my memory is hazy but... Checkov said that Kahn put things in their ears to control their minds and nobody asked: are they still there? how did you resist? and Bones didn't immediately scan him with his medical tricorder.

Yeah, you remember correctly.

"Admiral, if we go by the book, hours could seem like days"

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 11:52 (3789 days ago) @ Quirel

I forgot this classic example of stupid masquerading as clever.


Spock: Admiral, if we go "by the book". like Lieutenant Saavik, hours could seem like days.

Kirk: I read you captain. Let's have it.

Spock: The situation is grave, Admiral. We won't have main power for six "days". Auxiliary power has temporarily failed. Restoration may be possible, in two "days". By the book, Admiral.

And all the superior intellects who are listening fall for it.

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I started all of Star Trek in story order last year.*

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Monday, December 09, 2013, 07:52 (3790 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

I had seen random episodes before, mostly Picard, and I was halfway-familiar with most of Kirk's films, but I thought it was time to invest in this other deep sci-fi universe I knew little about. And yeah, I ran out of things to watch on Netflix. :)

Plus, they're great to make art to (unless the episode is really good).

To be honest, part of my inspiration was the new Trek films. Although they are light on sci-fi concepts, they captured an enthusiastic drive for the future. They were optimistic, with bold, sweeping colors and lines. It got me riled up!

So I was really surprised to find Kirk was my Captain. He just barrels forward into the unknown (sometimes literally). And I think TOS and Enterprise captured that futurist/exploratory drive the best for me. The colors and lighting alone of TOS is fascinating. And in terms of character dynamics, you can't beat Kirk-Spock-Bones!

After The Animated Series (which are great audio books) and Kirk's primary movies, I was again surprised, as TNG was not as immediately phenomenal as people had built up in my mind. As others have said, it takes a while to get consistently good, but there are still some fun episodes before that like the first Borg encounter. They actually made an enemy fearsome!

Picard has some of that childlike-drive for exploration showcased in Enterprise and TOD, but he's usually too distracted by delicate political matters and complicated moral concepts, which are interesting in their own right. I feel like he really becomes a Captain I'd proudly follow in Season 3 and 4. And his character has some great developments in episodes like The Inner Light and Lessons.

You should try DS9 if you end up liking TNG. A lot more politics but it has some great arcs and the character Garrek. It also reaches consistency much faster than TNG, since it had TNG's foundation to leap from. As a whole, I might end up liking it more than TNG. We'll see - I'm still only halfway through it. :)

Voyager... I'll have to get back to you on. I went from watching one to three Star Trek episodes a day until I started Voyager and that motivation then just grounded to halt. I'm going to keep trying as every other series has surprised in their unique ways... But this one is the toughest by far!

Oh, and I hope you like Lt. Barclay - one of my favorite parts of TNG!

*Heavily edited for horrible morning writing.

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"Plain, simple Garak." ;)

by stabbim @, Des Moines, IA, USA, Monday, December 09, 2013, 11:43 (3790 days ago) @ Leviathan

- No text -

I started all of Star Trek in story order last year.*

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 07:57 (3789 days ago) @ Leviathan


To be honest, part of my inspiration was the new Trek films. Although they are light on sci-fi concepts, they captured an enthusiastic drive for the future. They were optimistic, with bold, sweeping colors and lines. It got me riled up!

I really like the look. I loved the Enterprise shows in the mirror universe and the Trials and Tribulations DS9 episode - just for the look of the old ship, sets, and costumes.

The rest of trek seems too bland. Cardassian set design was nice.


I started Voyager and that motivation then just grounded to halt.

That's normal. It is your brain protecting itself.

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I started all of Star Trek in story order last year.*

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 09:29 (3789 days ago) @ scarab

I really like the look. I loved the Enterprise shows in the mirror universe and the Trials and Tribulations DS9 episode - just for the look of the old ship, sets, and costumes.

The rest of trek seems too bland. Cardassian set design was nice.

A lot of the 90's Trek suffered from consistently using the same palette. So many bases, peaches, and greys! There were times when they didn't do this, of course - and they stood out. As TNG went on, they started to mix up the lighting more creatively and that helped. Enterprise at least differentiated from all this by going cold blue, which also fit the tones of an earlier submarine-style spacecraft.

Obviously budgets are going to limit you, but I personally would have tried to make a lot of the rooms distinct from each other - different colors for different fields, etc. It might seem weird at first, but I think it would have paid off on a show that could last seven seasons. TOS series didn't do this, but each room already had a big mix of colors to help, especially in the crews' quarters, not to mention each planet they went to each week screamed with color.

Folks seem to think color is childish. A lot of modern, popcorn-movie-style video games think it. Everything has to be grey and brown to be taken serious. I think that's crazy. :)

I started all of Star Trek in story order last year.*

by scarab @, Tuesday, December 10, 2013, 10:43 (3789 days ago) @ Leviathan

I really like the look. I loved the Enterprise shows in the mirror universe and the Trials and Tribulations DS9 episode - just for the look of the old ship, sets, and costumes.

The rest of trek seems too bland. Cardassian set design was nice.


A lot of the 90's Trek suffered from consistently using the same palette. So many bases, peaches, and greys!


There were times when they didn't do this, of course - and they stood out. As TNG went on, they started to mix up the lighting more creatively and that helped. Enterprise at least differentiated from all this by going cold blue, which also fit the tones of an earlier submarine-style spacecraft.

"aint no-one wining an Oscar for the J C Penny Springtime Fashion look" goto 1:04 or just watch it all for a laugh.

submarine-style spacecraft - ooooooo

Obviously budgets are going to limit you, but I personally would have tried to make a lot of the rooms distinct from each other - different colors for different fields, etc. It might seem weird at first, but I think it would have paid off on a show that could last seven seasons. TOS series didn't do this, but each room already had a big mix of colors to help, especially in the crews' quarters, not to mention each planet they went to each week screamed with color.

They missed an idea there.


Folks seem to think color is childish. A lot of modern, popcorn-movie-style video games think it. Everything has to be grey and brown to be taken serious. I think that's crazy. :)

All gritty and shades of gray.

To me, the 1960's Enterprise actually does seem futuristic. Everything is a bit strange and alien.

But, anyway. Talking of submarine-style spacecraft... they are my favorite kind.

Not technically a spacecraft

If I was Bill Gates then I'd have one of those. My way of getting to work from my secret volcanic island lair.

I loved that show.

I love the subliminal 1980 flashes that establish that the show is set in the future. Well it was then - unimaginably distant.

That was another show that could do color.

Love those string simmets and those silver mini-skirts.

I tried to find a decent picture of Colonel Foster's purple Nehru suit but all Google has is topless photos of Michael Billington's hairy chest :-(

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"Star Trek: The Next Generation" Thread

by General Vagueness @, The Vault of Sass, Monday, May 19, 2014, 00:11 (3629 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan
edited by General Vagueness, Monday, May 19, 2014, 00:32

So how did it go? Is Data now your favorite being ever, or is it Riker, or maybe Worf? It's OK if it's Picard or Geordi, they're fine too. No but really, I don't know who my favorite character is. They all take turns delighting me and once in a while annoying or boring me. I have a place in my heart for Dr. Crusher but it's not as... gooey as the others. Barclay is good in small doses, and that's always how he shows up, so it works out. Chief O'Brien was a good straight man and average crew member with enough details to be interesting at times, I felt. I will counter the sentiment that counselor Troi was useless or pointless or had no reason to be there other than plot points set up for her:
- Lwaxana Troi-- one of the best things about the show, also better in small doses and delivered in small doses; she couldn't be quite the character she is without her daughter
- sometimes she did actual therapy work with crew members
- there was an episode where she lost her unique ability and I thought it was interesting and a nice exploration of her character
- in one of the later seasons she has to kind of step up to the plate as far as leadership and how that plays out kind of makes me cringe, but because of the situation and the character and how they go together, so kind of in a good way, and it's followed up in at least one later episode, so she does get some development (unlike most of the things that happen to Geordi)
- most of the glimpses into her Betazoid heritage, at least for me, were interesting
Which all brings me to something else, actually-- if you're watching Star Trek for sci-fi, and looking at it in a critical scientific light, you might not enjoy it-- because it's not really about sci-fi and to a large extent it's not about sci-fi premises or themes, it's about people and their obstacles (and even with money and its quirks removed as an obstacle 99% of the time and disease removed as an obstacle over 80% of the time, that can still be interesting).
Anyway, I was asking about you.

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Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by ncsuDuncan @, Monday, May 19, 2014, 22:22 (3628 days ago) @ General Vagueness

So how did it go?

Heh, I'm still on Season One of TNG.

My brother got me the Battlestar Galactica board game for Christmas. I'm very wary of spoilers, so I delayed playing the game and took that as an excuse to finally start watching BSG. I'm now nine episodes into Season Four, so I'll have that finished in the next few weeks and then I'll go back to Star Trek.

Remember my (facetious) complaints about TNG's mid-episode summary? I've found a new object of ridicule:

Battlestar Galactica's Intro Formula

  • Previously on Battlestar Galactica: Flashbacks/montages that lead straight into new stuff without indicating you should start paying attention now.
  • Wait a few scenes, then start the (agonizing) theme song while summarizing the plot of the entire series for any viewers new to the show jumping in at EPISODE NINE OF SEASON FOUR.
  • End with a spoiler-laden montage of the episode everyone is about to watch.

Seriously, I hate spoilers.

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Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by Dax01, Tuesday, May 20, 2014, 02:23 (3628 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

oh my god duncan

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Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Tuesday, May 20, 2014, 07:52 (3628 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

My take on BSG.

Fantastic first season.

By the end of the series watching felt like doing homework, only thank God there wouldn't be a final exam.

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Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Tuesday, May 20, 2014, 08:28 (3628 days ago) @ Kermit

I think the series was totally excellent up to at least the Second Exodus or departing the algae planet during the third season. The rest was pretty okie dokes, especially Razor (I love the Pegasus story) and The Plan (Cavil's evilness pleases me).

Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by scarab @, Wednesday, May 21, 2014, 22:44 (3626 days ago) @ Kermit

The problem is inherent in the battlestar story. The idea that civilization falls at the start from a surprise attack is very powerful. The idea of leading the Cylons to Earth is dumb. Finding something interesting to do for the next five seasons of a show's run is problematic.

So unless some writer comes up with something more interesting post beginning then all versions of BSG will have the same problems.

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Set condition one throughout the fleet.

by Grizzlei ⌂ @, Pacific Cloud Zone, Earth, Thursday, May 22, 2014, 09:56 (3626 days ago) @ scarab

So unless some writer comes up with something more interesting post beginning then all versions of BSG will have the same problems.

Needed more aliens.

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Tell me about it

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Tuesday, May 20, 2014, 08:49 (3628 days ago) @ ncsuDuncan

  • End with a spoiler-laden montage of the episode everyone is about to watch.

Seriously, I hate spoilers.

I would close my eyes and wait out the drums for every episode. Who thought that was a good idea?!

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