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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Wednesday, April 03, 2013, 22:32 (4012 days ago)

Joe Staten talked about how they took inspiration for Destiny's storytelling from The Wire, Lost, and Battlestar Galactica. One thing that interests me about this idea is maybe not just side quests will be "episodic." What if they have a main story that is episodic also? Each mission only has a small hint at what ends up being the main plot? This would make me feel even more like the world is huge and expansive like in MY favorite shows like Firefly, Doctor Who and Battlestar Galactica.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Wednesday, April 03, 2013, 22:42 (4012 days ago) @ Xenos

Joe Staten talked about how they took inspiration for Destiny's storytelling from The Wire, Lost, and Battlestar Galactica. One thing that interests me about this idea is maybe not just side quests will be "episodic." What if they have a main story that is episodic also? Each mission only has a small hint at what ends up being the main plot? This would make me feel even more like the world is huge and expansive like in MY favorite shows like Firefly, Doctor Who and Battlestar Galactica.

Yeah. For some reason, I don't feel like there is going to be one giant story, just a world full of infinite stories -some authored by Bungie, the rest by us.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 04:52 (4012 days ago) @ Leviathan

I think there's going to be a central narrative, or at the very least a central theme -- they've alluded to it in the initial reveal trailer -- but it does sounds like it's going to be more similar to games like Skyrim where you frequently stumble onto side quests and locations of interest on your way toward accomplishing other goals. I'm actually kind of excited about the idea of free exploration.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by ZackDark @, Not behind you. NO! Don't look., Thursday, April 04, 2013, 07:03 (4012 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

I think there's going to be a central narrative, or at the very least a central theme -- they've alluded to it in the initial reveal trailer -- but it does sounds like it's going to be more similar to games like Skyrim where you frequently stumble onto side quests and locations of interest on your way toward accomplishing other goals. I'm actually kind of excited about the idea of free exploration.

Ditto. Especially since the "Main menu" screen we were shown had a "Chapter" section.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Mr Daax ⌂ @, aka: SSG Daax, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 08:32 (4012 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

but it does sounds like it's going to be more similar to games like Skyrim where you frequently stumble onto side quests and locations of interest on your way toward accomplishing other goals. I'm actually kind of excited about the idea of free exploration.

If this is true, I am very excited as well. Imagine travelling with your buddies through space and someone says, "Ooh, what's that? Let's check it out really quick." 2 hours later you're standing in front of a gigantic pile of loot and blue space gold after having fought your way through a Hive, uh, hive.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Mix ⌂ @, New Braunfels, Texas, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 10:51 (4012 days ago) @ Mr Daax

but it does sounds like it's going to be more similar to games like Skyrim where you frequently stumble onto side quests and locations of interest on your way toward accomplishing other goals. I'm actually kind of excited about the idea of free exploration.


If this is true, I am very excited as well. Imagine travelling with your buddies through space and someone says, "Ooh, what's that? Let's check it out really quick." 2 hours later you're standing in front of a gigantic pile of loot and blue space gold after having fought your way through a Hive, uh, hive.

This is why I'm so excited for Destiny. Exploration on a grand scale in not only an FPS but in a Bungie game makes me very happy

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 11:44 (4012 days ago) @ Leviathan
edited by Kermit, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 12:37

Like that time you, me, Loftus, and Ibeechu made it down that stretch of Coastal Highway on foot, armed with little more than plasma pistols?

Glad to see so much evidence that they are really putting a lot of thought into this game and its sequels. Some of the best storytelling on the planet has been in serial TV the last 10 to 15 years.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 12:55 (4012 days ago) @ Kermit
edited by Cody Miller, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 13:02


Glad to see so much evidence that they are really putting a lot of thought into this game and its sequels. Some of the best storytelling on the planet has been in serial TV the last 10 to 15 years.

Just because it works in television, doesn't mean it will work in a game.

I linked it in HBO, and I'll link it here. This is an extraordinary post that explains what's wrong with this sort of approach. Call me a contrarian again, but I'd be much more confident if Bungie was inspired in their storytelling by other games, rather than by other mediums.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/trouble-with-being-batman.html

OR we'll come to a point where we realize- BECAUSE we are slaves (as we should be) to interactivity, that we should chase after emotions and ideas and scenarios that are special and unique to interactivity, versus simply trying to replicate the emotions that other mediums already offer up so naturally and so successfully. Perhaps interactivity will NEVER be able to create the sort of emotional longing that one gets when they watch ET fly away from Elliot...but we CAN do tension, terror, competition, anxiety, the joy of team work, the joy of learning through experimentation,etc,etc,etc probably better than ANY other medium. And I say why run from this? Why not plant our flag in the rich and still fresh soil of the emotions and responses that our medium excels at NATURALLY? Why are we so desperate to bogart emotions from other mediums? Perhaps those that are should just- you know- go work in those other mediums and then they'd be a lot more satisfied.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 13:02 (4012 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Just because it works in television, doesn't mean it will work in a game.

I definitely agree with this sentiment, but we do know this specific idea CAN work with video games since other video games have done it well. Arkham City is a good example (brought up because of the Batman article, haha) also Skyrim and other RPG's.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by breitzen @, Kansas, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 13:24 (4012 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Just because it works in television, doesn't mean it will work in a game.

It does make me a little nervous but I'm a sucker for campaign so if they can pull off an awesome 25+ hour campaign (with side quests and exploration) ill be all over it. I

The emotional connection does worry me, it's hard to get the kind of emotional tug that movies/tv/very scripted games do in an "open world". But bungie's one of the best for a reason, so yeah.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 14:20 (4011 days ago) @ breitzen

Just because it works in television, doesn't mean it will work in a game.


It does make me a little nervous but I'm a sucker for campaign so if they can pull off an awesome 25+ hour campaign (with side quests and exploration) ill be all over it. I

The emotional connection does worry me, it's hard to get the kind of emotional tug that movies/tv/very scripted games do in an "open world". But bungie's one of the best for a reason, so yeah.


I think the best way to create emotional connections in an open world is to design your sandbox to allow the player himself to create his own powerful experiences, then allow the designed stories to support and resonate with those unique tales.

For example, I love the Elder Scrolls games not so much for their individual stories, but the appeal of the world and history they created. Sure, sometimes the quests tell a great yarn, but in an open world, I care more about the richness that's all around me - the factions and their thousand years of history, the prejiduces of one species for the other, the political tensions that are brewing. It's less about what actually happens, and more about what could happen in a game like this.

Once upon a time... I had one horse for the longest time - he wasn't a character but it was something I had grown used to. One day in the fields of Whiterun I kind of got a pack of Mammoths and Giants angry at me while I was trying to gather some of my shot arrows. I look back and see my dead horse flying into the hills. In anger, I charged the giants and mammoths!

Quickly, I realized that was a terrible mistake and started tactically retreating (i.e. running away) and followed a river north. Eventually, I felt I had lost them, and just then an arrow whizzes past. I had apparently found myself on the outskirts of bandit camp, fortified with a tall fence, gates, and watchtowers. Great!

Now I was running south again, away from a troop of shirtless crazies and then I had an idea - the mammoths and giants were still following me from afar! So I led the two groups to each other and BAM an epic battle started. 10 minutes later, there was a mammoth inside of a fort throwing bandits into the air, and I felt I had avenged my horse's death.

So I think the key with open-world design is to create factions, npcs, and stories that resonates with your freedom of choices. If you know something like the above is possible, you don't necessarily force it on the player, you just set it up so that it can happen, and if it does, it will be even more powerful when the game's characters are responsible or reactive to these events occurring. I'm not saying the Elder Scrolls games are perfect at this, but that it hits a few of these elements every once in a while.

Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Flynn J Taggart, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 14:32 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan

I'm getting an Elder Scrolls-ish narrative vibe from how Bungie's describing Destiny, also. I think when they're referring to the episodic nature of Destiny, they're probably talking about it in the sense of City of Heroes having semi-regular comic "issues" (episodes) that introduce new content into the game and progress some overarching story forward, but the world itself is still sandbox-y enough to support your own story doing your own thing. The episodes basically serve as backdrop for the world itself.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 15:00 (4011 days ago) @ Flynn J Taggart

I'm getting an Elder Scrolls-ish narrative vibe from how Bungie's describing Destiny, also. I think when they're referring to the episodic nature of Destiny, they're probably talking about it in the sense of City of Heroes having semi-regular comic "issues" (episodes) that introduce new content into the game and progress some overarching story forward, but the world itself is still sandbox-y enough to support your own story doing your own thing. The episodes basically serve as backdrop for the world itself.

Ah, the whole episodes thing. Aren't we at the point where this has generally been proven to be ineffective? Spartan Ops tells the story much less effectively than a real campaign, and other genres that have tried episodic gaming either have episodes which don't reach critical mass for sufficient complexity, or the episodes take as long to develop as a full game proper. I can't really recall any episodic games that are significantly better than if they had been a single release or a series of larger releases.

Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Ser Jergen, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 15:29 (4011 days ago) @ Cody Miller


Ah, the whole episodes thing. Aren't we at the point where this has generally been proven to be ineffective? Spartan Ops tells the story much less effectively than a real campaign, and other genres that have tried episodic gaming either have episodes which don't reach critical mass for sufficient complexity, or the episodes take as long to develop as a full game proper. I can't really recall any episodic games that are significantly better than if they had been a single release or a series of larger releases.

I get what your saying to. When I first heard Destiny talk about episodic content I thought about Spartan Ops. I enjoyed the story but overall it was executed poorly. If they had injected more story into the game play and removed two of the five missions I think they might have had something. But that's not what happened. Instead you got repetitive game play and a story that didn't really necessitate you playing the actual game play.

The real question is how do they implement this into Destiny. I've got a similar feeling that the world will act as a combination of Skyrim and WoW. An epic scale with a huge amount of things to do. But, will the campaign come out over weeks at a time? Or will there be a sort of core campaign that you can complete while Bungie releases auxiliary content that's not required to complete the campaign but augments it to create a richer experience. And of course, at what point does episodic content turn into DLC? Based on current information I'm inclined to believe that any DLC that Destiny will have (i.e. the Comets seen in the early Activision contract) far reaching changes and new content similar to the WoW expansions that will maybe add new planets or drastically change the base locations.

No doubt Destiny is a huge project that aims to revolutionize video games and it's up to Bungie to craft it and it will either it will make a lasting impact that forever changes the way video games are made and played. Or, it will be a poorly crafted mess that set its sights to high and ultimately fails. Knowing Bungie my money's on the first option. Only time will tell...

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 15:39 (4011 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I would submit that video games already employ episodic storytelling. The only difference is that the stories are generally disguised as missions or levels to be beaten, and either strung together linearly or spread out over an expansive world to be discovered and explored.

What makes episodic storytelling work (or not) in both TV and video games is twofold:

1) You have to have a team of writers who can spin a good yarn and write it competently. The stories have to be thought-out and well-written and be compelling enough to draw the viewer or player into the story. There are plenty of examples of both excellent and awful episodic storytelling, and the major separator between the two ends of that spectrum is usually the quality of the writing.

2) You have to have specific goals to meet in your writing process, places the story has to touch before arriving at its conclusion. One of the primary reason why, in my opinion, Spartan Ops fails to satisfy for a lot of gamers, for example, is that 343i basically admitted that they wrote the episodes with no (or, at the very least, little) clear idea of where the story was going. If you don't set specific goals along in your storytelling, the story itself is going to flop, no matter how good the writing is because the story will feel like its purposelessly meandering. Bungie has demonstrated over multiple franchises a strong ability to craft compelling tales that draw gamers into the story and make them want to be a part of that universe, so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that Destiny will be equally fascinating.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 20:23 (4011 days ago) @ TTL Demag0gue

Star systems are such a modular concept. I'd wager new systems with a handful of planets would fit quite well as DLC episodes, if not simply new areas on planets within our own system.


~M

Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by NsU Soldier @, Washington, Friday, April 05, 2013, 03:48 (4011 days ago) @ Malagate

Star systems are such a modular concept. I'd wager new systems with a handful of planets would fit quite well as DLC episodes, if not simply new areas on planets within our own system.


~M

I am hoping for the latter of the two. I'm tired of romping around the galaxy in so many sci-fi games nowadays. The solar system is ridiculously huge enough by itself, just focusing on that (I think) could be interesting for a long, long time. Also, because it's our solar system, I think I'd have a stronger emotional connection to it. I mean, I can SEE Venus most evenings through my window. Love that bright speck on the horizon. :)

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by TTL Demag0gue ⌂ @, Within the shadow of the Traveler, Friday, April 05, 2013, 04:50 (4011 days ago) @ NsU Soldier

I am hoping for the latter of the two.

From what I can surmise from interviews so far, Destiny is going to at least start out confined to our own solar system. Some of the things Staten has said implies that they may branch out further later on -- conjecture: possibly to find the thing that decimated the human race, and hit it back -- but for now, the game will stay relatively 'local.'

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This

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, April 05, 2013, 10:45 (4011 days ago) @ NsU Soldier

Also, potential for the coolest Easter Eggs ever.

HEY GUYS. OVER HERE. IT'S OPPORTUNITY!

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 05, 2013, 10:30 (4011 days ago) @ Malagate

Star systems are such a modular concept. I'd wager new systems with a handful of planets would fit quite well as DLC episodes, if not simply new areas on planets within our own system.


~M

I love (and by love I mean hate) how gamers are now actually embracing DLC. OOOOHHHH! That's a good thing to not include in the game so you can sell it to me later!

I hate you all. :-p

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 10:38 (4011 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Star systems are such a modular concept. I'd wager new systems with a handful of planets would fit quite well as DLC episodes, if not simply new areas on planets within our own system.


~M


I love (and by love I mean hate) how gamers are now actually embracing DLC. OOOOHHHH! That's a good thing to not include in the game so you can sell it to me later!

I hate you all. :-p

I know this is a major sticking point with you, I am just curious how you expect game developers to make money. Of course any gamer is going to be against developers removing planned content from a game so that they can sell it later, but at the same time what's different about that from the days of "let's save that for the sequel." Heck back in the Marathon days some people complained because they axed the shotgun for the Marathon 1 DLC to put it in Marathon 2 instead. How much content in the actual game would be "enough" that would justify a company being able to sell a separate DLC later? From everything we have read about Destiny I fully expect it to have nearly endless content without DLC so that seems to be fine for me.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:38 (4010 days ago) @ Xenos

I know this is a major sticking point with you, I am just curious how you expect game developers to make money.

Oh gee, I dunno. Maybe how they did it before DLC was common (and consequently when the industry was at its peak financially), by making a quality game with tons of stuff already included and selling it for a fixed price.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:45 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

I know this is a major sticking point with you, I am just curious how you expect game developers to make money.


Oh gee, I dunno. Maybe how they did it before DLC was common (and consequently when the industry was at its peak financially), by making a quality game with tons of stuff already included and selling it for a fixed price.

Honestly a big part of the problem recently is the fact that a lot of game companies are starting to fail or lose money, so they have to find ways to make money. The argument to me should not be whether or not there is DLC but whether or not there is quality content. Both in the game and in the DLC. I have never felt ripped off by a Bungie game, they tend to have enough content to make me feel my $60 was worth it. Also there are several examples of games that have had worthwhile DLC (read the rest of this thread for examples). I am not under the impression whatsoever that Bungie is holding back on content for Destiny to put it in DLC. Just like what Ken Levine says about DLC for Bioshock Infinite, if they cut content for the game it was because it wasn't good enough. Do game companies need DLC to support their company in between games? Possibly. Does that mean it should (or will) suck? No.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, April 05, 2013, 10:58 (4011 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Star systems are such a modular concept. I'd wager new systems with a handful of planets would fit quite well as DLC episodes, if not simply new areas on planets within our own system.


~M


I love (and by love I mean hate) how gamers are now actually embracing DLC. OOOOHHHH! That's a good thing to not include in the game so you can sell it to me later!

I hate you all. :-p

There's a difference between shitty day-one DLC and DLCs that are essentially mini-sequels or short stories that allow designers to play with an engine they've now mastered. When I talk about DLC episodes, I'm talking about the equivalent of the Half Life 2 episodes - enjoyable/meaningful extensions of an established game engine. Great examples off the top of my head would be Skyrim's Dawnguard and Dragonborn. Other examples would be Arkham City's Harley's Revenge and the Mass Effect's Lair of the Shadow Broker. Although I don't agree on all of their pricings, these extensions really show improvement. You can see in them that the designers have figured out some things from the finished game now that the dust has settled and have gone back in for another go. And then they get to reap what they learned from these episodes for their next game.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, April 05, 2013, 11:53 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan
edited by SonofMacPhisto, Friday, April 05, 2013, 12:00

These are good examples. It's fun to watch a game evolve.

It's hard for me to feel shortchanged on some of this stuff.

Skyrim, Borderlands 1 and 2, and ME3/ME2 are all games with significant DLC offerings where I didn't feel shortchanged in the 'vanilla game.' The satisfaction of the release day game is the same I felt with games like Civ I, II, and III, or Homeworld, or Half-Life, where DLC didn't exist.

ME is a really good example, because ME2 and ME3 on day one, in light of ME1, felt like full games just like ME1. It's the difference between 'big game' and 'monstrously big game.'

I've always gotten my money's worth for these titles and their DLC content. I don't think my cost/benefit judgement gene is off, either.

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Back in the day...

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, April 05, 2013, 12:22 (4011 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

These are good examples. It's fun to watch a game evolve.

It's hard for me to feel shortchanged on some of this stuff.

Skyrim, Borderlands 1 and 2, and ME3/ME2 are all games with significant DLC offerings where I didn't feel shortchanged in the 'vanilla game.' The satisfaction of the release day game is the same I felt with games like Civ I, II, and III, or Homeworld, or Half-Life, where DLC didn't exist.

ME is a really good example, because ME2 and ME3 on day one, in light of ME1, felt like full games just like ME1. It's the difference between 'big game' and 'monstrously big game.'

I've always gotten my money's worth for these titles and their DLC content. I don't think my cost/benefit judgement gene is off, either.

... we called these Expansions. We should get back to that. It's a far more epic name. And we'll leave 'DLC' for the dregs. :)

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Back in the day...

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 12:33 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan

I've always gotten my money's worth for these titles and their DLC content. I don't think my cost/benefit judgement gene is off, either.


... we called these Expansions. We should get back to that. It's a far more epic name. And we'll leave 'DLC' for the dregs. :)

I personally am very excited for Irrational to come out with story Expansions to Bioshock Infinite. Can't wait to see what they decide to do in that world.

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Back in the day...

by Mr Daax ⌂ @, aka: SSG Daax, Friday, April 05, 2013, 14:42 (4010 days ago) @ Xenos

Just finished playing that last night...OH.MY.FRICKIN.GOODNESS. I think absofrickinlutelyawesome is an appropriate word. Not a perfect video game, but, man, the story was sure ambitious and, IMHO, incredible to experience.

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I just finished it too…

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:58 (4010 days ago) @ Mr Daax

I was left with some big questions, but I'd agree, they pulled off a lot. And what they didn't or what I still have questions about might be things I missed or things that will be answered in DLC.

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Back in the day...

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:59 (4010 days ago) @ Mr Daax

Just finished playing that last night...OH.MY.FRICKIN.GOODNESS. I think absofrickinlutelyawesome is an appropriate word. Not a perfect video game, but, man, the story was sure ambitious and, IMHO, incredible to experience.

Yeah Bioshock 1 definitely had a better overall experience, but man the story in this, HOLY CRAP. I tried explaining it to someone today and just ended up confusing the crap out of them.

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Back in the day...

by SonofMacPhisto @, Friday, April 05, 2013, 12:52 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan

... we called these Expansions. We should get back to that. It's a far more epic name. And we'll leave 'DLC' for the dregs. :)

Lol that's right

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Ragashingo ⌂, Official DBO Cryptarch, Friday, April 05, 2013, 13:41 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan

Harley's Revenge is not a good example. It was kinda bad. Or, rather, I wanted much much more time to play around in that game and they never really gave it to me. :(

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, April 05, 2013, 14:11 (4010 days ago) @ Ragashingo

Harley's Revenge is not a good example. It was kinda bad. Or, rather, I wanted much much more time to play around in that game and they never really gave it to me. :(

That's one where the pricing would be an issue. It was indeed too short, but it was the kind of disappointment where I was having too much fun for it to end, compared to not having fun at all. If you catch my drift.

(I also don't get to play as many games as I'd like anymore, so I have a limited selection to choose from at the moment.)

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:38 (4010 days ago) @ Leviathan

There's a difference between shitty day-one DLC and DLCs that are essentially mini-sequels or short stories that allow designers to play with an engine they've now mastered.

Guess what? Destiny is getting day 1 DLC. Think about that.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 16:47 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There's a difference between shitty day-one DLC and DLCs that are essentially mini-sequels or short stories that allow designers to play with an engine they've now mastered.


Guess what? Destiny is getting day 1 DLC. Think about that.

Just clarifying because I want to make sure I understand. Are you talking about the PS4 exclusive content? If not I'd like a source because I haven't heard anything about day 1 DLC.

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^ Same

by Beorn @, <End of Failed Timeline>, Friday, April 05, 2013, 17:53 (4010 days ago) @ Xenos

Just clarifying because I want to make sure I understand. Are you talking about the PS4 exclusive content? If not I'd like a source because I haven't heard anything about day 1 DLC.

Sources are always nice.

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I dunnooooooo

by SonofMacPhisto @, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 10:43 (4010 days ago) @ Beorn

I think we're getting to the point where Day 1 DLC is a safe bet for any AAA title, sources or not.

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I dunnooooooo

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 12:12 (4010 days ago) @ SonofMacPhisto

I think we're getting to the point where Day 1 DLC is a safe bet for any AAA title, sources or not.

Unless you are talking about exclusive content from vendors or for platforms like "gold weapons" and the like I heartily disagree. Bioshock Infinite (I just played it it's fresh on my mind) had 0 Day 1 DLC aside from that kind.

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I dunnooooooo

by SonofMacPhisto @, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 13:20 (4010 days ago) @ Xenos

I think we're getting to the point where Day 1 DLC is a safe bet for any AAA title, sources or not.


Unless you are talking about exclusive content from vendors or for platforms like "gold weapons" and the like I heartily disagree. Bioshock Infinite (I just played it it's fresh on my mind) had 0 Day 1 DLC aside from that kind.

lol that's right *facepalm* Yeah, we're talking about the same kind of DLC (like ME3's From Ashes).

Infinite might almost be the exception to the rule, though. Well, soon it will be, I mean. Ish.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Friday, April 05, 2013, 20:12 (4010 days ago) @ Xenos

There's a difference between shitty day-one DLC and DLCs that are essentially mini-sequels or short stories that allow designers to play with an engine they've now mastered.


Guess what? Destiny is getting day 1 DLC. Think about that.


Just clarifying because I want to make sure I understand. Are you talking about the PS4 exclusive content? If not I'd like a source because I haven't heard anything about day 1 DLC.

It might be the exclusive content, I don't know. Not sure if I should say my source because I'm not sure it's officially announced yet, but they are someone close to Bungie.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 21:08 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

It might be the exclusive content, I don't know. Not sure if I should say my source because I'm not sure it's officially announced yet, but they are someone close to Bungie.

Well then I hope you're not offended that I am going to stay skeptical until I see some kind of announcement.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 18:20 (4009 days ago) @ Xenos

It might be the exclusive content, I don't know. Not sure if I should say my source because I'm not sure it's officially announced yet, but they are someone close to Bungie.


Well then I hope you're not offended that I am going to stay skeptical until I see some kind of announcement.

No it's quite understandable. Just bookmark this post for future reference.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Leviathan ⌂, Hotel Zanzibar, Friday, April 05, 2013, 19:54 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

There's a difference between shitty day-one DLC and DLCs that are essentially mini-sequels or short stories that allow designers to play with an engine they've now mastered.


Guess what? Destiny is getting day 1 DLC. Think about that.

I have. It sucks. And I don't take part in it. A lot of great games do that these days, and a lot of good movies also do 3D crap. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy the rest of it.

But we were talking about episodic narrative, not exclusive Gamestop camo guns or whatever.

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This.

by Xenos @, Shores of Time, Friday, April 05, 2013, 19:55 (4010 days ago) @ Leviathan

- No text -

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Malagate @, Sea of Tranquility, Thursday, April 04, 2013, 20:15 (4011 days ago) @ Leviathan

So, you mean an evolution of the dynamics played with in PiD.

And Marathon. And Myth.

And Oni. And Halo.

Think about guerilla warfare. Where how strong your small arms are doesn't really matter, as long as you can control aggro, set traps, and wage asymmetric warfare?

Odysseus was not Ajax. Or Achilles.


~M

Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by electricpirate @, Friday, April 05, 2013, 14:36 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Joe Staten actually agrees with you ;)

http://criticalpathproject.com/?m=Joseph%20Staten

Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Lurono @, Oklahoma, USA, Friday, April 05, 2013, 22:23 (4010 days ago) @ electricpirate

Neat site, thanks for the link! Lots of interesting thoughts from a lot of big names!

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Jillybean, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 04:35 (4010 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Well let me raise a counter to that quote.

Just because one person feels emotional longing when ET flies away, doesn't mean I don't cringe and find the whole movie uncomfortable.

We don't all experience stories the same way, and we don't all experience the same story. Nor do you have to find everything emotionally wrenching to enjoy it. I was at the theatre the other night (because I'm a classy bitch) to see an adaption of Taking Over the Asylum. I found the original TV series quite harrowing, but the play is charming and funny and much more light hearted. I cried at one point, not the part I expected to cry at. I expected I'd find the big reveal about Francine's condition to be the saddest, as that's what got me in the TV series. In the play, I found myself crying at a part where Francine makes a bit of progress with her condition. It's the same story in two different mediums, two different lengths, one of them much more interactive than the other, and both affected me in different ways. They were both very enjoyable.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Saturday, April 06, 2013, 18:24 (4009 days ago) @ Jillybean

Well let me raise a counter to that quote.

Just because one person feels emotional longing when ET flies away, doesn't mean I don't cringe and find the whole movie uncomfortable.

We don't all experience stories the same way, and we don't all experience the same story. Nor do you have to find everything emotionally wrenching to enjoy it. I was at the theatre the other night (because I'm a classy bitch) to see an adaption of Taking Over the Asylum. I found the original TV series quite harrowing, but the play is charming and funny and much more light hearted. I cried at one point, not the part I expected to cry at. I expected I'd find the big reveal about Francine's condition to be the saddest, as that's what got me in the TV series. In the play, I found myself crying at a part where Francine makes a bit of progress with her condition. It's the same story in two different mediums, two different lengths, one of them much more interactive than the other, and both affected me in different ways. They were both very enjoyable.

First of all, thank you for at least reading what I consider one of the most important articles ever written about gaming. Second, what you are describing above is what's called 'taste' and 'intent of the artist', both of which have nothing to do with the point I, or the article are making.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Jillybean, Sunday, April 07, 2013, 06:06 (4009 days ago) @ Cody Miller

Oh, no worries, I never read the article

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Cody Miller @, Music of the Spheres - Never Forgot, Monday, April 08, 2013, 09:01 (4008 days ago) @ Jillybean

Oh, no worries, I never read the article

And people say I'm closed minded and stubborn. Seriously.

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Destiny as an Episodic Narrative

by Kermit @, Raleigh, NC, Sunday, April 07, 2013, 10:13 (4009 days ago) @ Cody Miller
edited by Kermit, Sunday, April 07, 2013, 10:50


Glad to see so much evidence that they are really putting a lot of thought into this game and its sequels. Some of the best storytelling on the planet has been in serial TV the last 10 to 15 years.


Just because it works in television, doesn't mean it will work in a game.

No one said it would. I think it's a mistake, however, to assume that there is nothing to be learned from a different medium. Artists have always been inspired by art in different mediums. If Hitchcock can be inspired by Picasso, why can't Bungie draw some inspiration from The Wire? The thought of the latter thrills me, frankly.

I linked it in HBO, and I'll link it here. This is an extraordinary post that explains what's wrong with this sort of approach. Call me a contrarian again, but I'd be much more confident if Bungie was inspired in their storytelling by other games, rather than by other mediums.

http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/trouble-with-being-batman.html

OR we'll come to a point where we realize- BECAUSE we are slaves (as we should be) to interactivity, that we should chase after emotions and ideas and scenarios that are special and unique to interactivity, versus simply trying to replicate the emotions that other mediums already offer up so naturally and so successfully. Perhaps interactivity will NEVER be able to create the sort of emotional longing that one gets when they watch ET fly away from Elliot...but we CAN do tension, terror, competition, anxiety, the joy of team work, the joy of learning through experimentation,etc,etc,etc probably better than ANY other medium. And I say why run from this? Why not plant our flag in the rich and still fresh soil of the emotions and responses that our medium excels at NATURALLY? Why are we so desperate to bogart emotions from other mediums? Perhaps those that are should just- you know- go work in those other mediums and then they'd be a lot more satisfied.

Yeah, I get it. You, Jonathan Blow, and the author of this piece believe that interactivity is king, and the only narrative that matters is the ludonarrative--what happens during gameplay. I have sympathy for that point of view.

There's a Manichean quality to these arguments, though. The argument is often that game designers are cheating when they use cinematic techniques in games, that the resulting output is the gaming equivalent of genetically modified crops, and should be shunned. Taken further, it's often viewed as a sign of insecurity that game designers do rely on techniques borrowed from other mediums. I say it can be, but I'm not a purist about it. It can also be a sign of artists doing what they do best--stealing. Halo would not exist without the inspiration that came from George Lucas, Larry Niven, and Ridley Scott. I can want the feelings and emotions I get from a movie or book in addition to those I can get from only a game. I can appreciate how it's familiar and different at the same time.

I'm not going to swear off Destiny because it has cutscenes, nor will I accuse Bungie of being desperate or trying to "bogart emotions from other mediums." It can be a sign of insecurity to strictly define your medium as only this thing, and anything else included as a bastardization. It's still a new medium, though, so I understand the need to argue for its definition.

Kermit

EDIT: One more thing, I have reason to think that Bungie is also taking inspiration for their storytelling from other games (Journey and Dark Souls, to name two), so be encouraged. :)

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